zazen

Mexicans aren't trying to displace Americans and establish their own state with biased laws. That's stretching the definition of the word. Here’s a linked index of discriminatory laws from the democracy known as Israel - https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index Partial truths are a dangerous thing. Sure, not all the Palestinians in the Nakba (a term legislatively banned in Israel) were massacred or directly terrorised by the Haganah (main paramilitary organization which became the core of the IDF) but a great enough proportion were that rumours spread and Palestinians warned their communities leading them to leave - it was the catalyst. Why else would people who had been there generations get up and leave - you think they voluntarily just left and had a change of heart deciding their more beach people preferring Gaza rather than mountainous people in land. Forcibly removed doesn't mean gunpoint evacuation it can be coerced by atrocities and terrorising. The Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine was less than a third of which most arrived between 1924-1939 - meaning that majority of those advocating for partition had been living there for at most 20 years. Yet, the UN partition plan allocated approximately 56% of the land of Mandatory Palestine to the Jewish state. Why were Palestinians expected to agree to cede the majority of their land to a minority of recently arrived settlers? The rejection of such an unfair proposal is often portrayed as irrational or hateful, but why should it be seen as such? Israel thinks it holds all the blood stained cards, but the world has voted and sided with the truth except a few. What were once deemed terrorists such as Mat Turner of the slave revolt or Mandela of South Africa are now lauded as heroes of emancipation. Resistance movements are built on the blood of martyrs which Israel ensures a continual supply of. Their called grassroots movements for a reason - you can't get rid of them unless you poison the soil ie genocide, expulsion or brutal subjugation. Resistance will never stop unless the soil is destroyed because its the soil (people) that keeps the grass (resistance) growing. If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. Everything Israel obtains through oppression is inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you.

Who’s batting first captain? Might have to sit this one out Zazen style

What's astounding is the level of arrogance and entitlement of Zionists. What gives them the right to afford Palestinians sovereignty and rights? Is it because their Gods chosen people? Imagine someone came into your house, kicked you down to your basement and didn't let you leave or come up to the kitchen for food or to the garden for a change of scenery and some sun - they then claim to you in your own house ''Show us you can behave well like a Pavlovian dog and develop yourself to the point we think you can have some of your house back'' And they invert and sophistically claim to be the victims and not the aggressors of the predicament they find themselves in. Zionists frame it as Palestinians not being developed enough or behaving well enough to have rights granted to them when really its that they are impeded from developing and are preoccupied with first securing their fundamental rights. It's the dignity in them that resists that is then gaslighted as them not behaving well. I expect nothing less than for people to resist despite what spiral stage we colour code and paintball them with. This isn't a stage red or green thing but a human thing. If even a ant or animals resist to survive unwanted death then what of humans who have the conscience to be aware of their undignified treatment, oppression, being taken advantage of through unviable peace proposals and impending conditions of death imposed on them? There's nothing confusing about resistance, in fact it would be confusing for anyone not to. It would be a case study for such a alien reaction or lack of if no resistance occurred. The whole framing of the situation is such that Zionists will deny and obfuscate the reality as complicated when it is anything but. Terms like settler colonialism, occupation or apartheid incite a allergic reaction to the ideologically captured zionist ego because they know that in a post-colonial, post-apartheid world any moral or legal ground is lost for their cause and any subsequent reasoning from accepting the reality of those terms is de-legitimised. I can agree that what is complicated is how to get out of this situation with entrenched interests on both sides benefiting from it, but it's definitely not complicated who is the more aggrieved party that is wronged. I won't resign my moral conscience to a detached enlightenment and moral relativity from some lofty place in the clouds. As Ram Dass said, part of the spiritual journey is honouring the form we are in, being human and getting into the humaness of experience. Understanding all sides is different from standing with all of them - plurality doesn't mean neutrality and in this case, it is clear who stands as the wronged side. Israel had its chance to show them they mean peace and good faith - but they failed. Because of their pride and righteousness what did they do with the Palestinians in the West Bank who 'behaved' better and 'developed' relatively more than their Gazan counterparts? Were they rewarded like Pavlovian dogs even the most fundamental rights or the beginnings of any sovereignty for their good behaviour? Sure, maybe some scraps off the table such as work permits - doubtedly coming from any place of benevolence but more so only to benefit Israel's own economy to access some needed labor and keep the world off their back by being seen as 'doing something' to help. Instead they got settlement expansion and settler violence increasing to such degrees that any sovereignty becomes almost impossible. So why would Gazan's think they would get something by behaving and developing if on the contrary when they look over to the West Bank they see a clear indication that 'behaving and developing' leads to nothing except the opposite.

@Nivsch Yes possibly. That's a good initiative for the seaport - again its from a guy who wishes to head the Likud party and become prime minister so it could be empty words in order just to win popularity. Whether they do that is another story and if they did would it be under Israeli control, with what stipulations etc. Regardless - even if you throw money at Gaza (which can gets into corrupt hands) the core issue is sovereignty and rights. They will use whatever they get to mobilise resistance for their sovereignty and rights. What good would it be to create a nice place to live if one can't leave it. Even if no one wants to travel or have a holiday because they enjoy where they live - that is a basic right. Its demeaning to say they should take more responsibility and 'cry less' and the presumption that they should have to 'earn' or 'prove' themselves to their occupiers why they should have basic human rights and sovereignty - until that is given they will use what they have to resist rather than to create a paradise they can't leave or have limited control over.

There's currently only one country called Israel as they deny the other side one. Apartheid simply means a two tiered legal system which is discriminatory. Israel has a military court for Palestinians in the West Bank that operate under military law rather than civilian law and have jurisdiction over them. Which country do you know that doesn't have its own courts, military/police, capital or control over its borders, air and seas? Palestinians in West Bank don't have their own legal system but an Israeli one administering it. Its not rocket science. Even the smallest countries - Vatican, Monaco and a random island called Nauru have their own legal system, police and control / sovereignty of their borders, land, air and seas. Vatican - a land area of 121 acres can be afforded those rights but Gaza alone which is 11'000 acres or 100x more than Vatican can't. Nuance is important and should be used to apply the definition of words and not deny their realities for example of words like occupation, apartheid or ethnic cleansing. I think what's breaking down communication is people focusing too much on the exact meanings of words and playing semantics. If you take words too literally, they don't express what's intended and if you stretch their meanings too much to fit anything you want making them metaphorical it's absurd also. For example, if I say I feel "imprisoned" by Hollywood's culture because I live in LA, am I actually in prison? No, it's a metaphor to show how much it affects me as I'm surrounded by it. If I say I feel "imprisoned" by LA's laws, that's closer to reality because not following them can lead to actual prison. Occupation for example doesn't mean the most literal definition of the word like when you go to the toilet and it says occupied by someone sitting on it - Israeli's don't have to be sitting on Palestinians laps in Gaza eating Baklava to claim occupation or defecating on their land - they can be occupied externally by controls of their border, sea and airspace depriving, dehumanising and un-dignifying them. Instead of Israel occupying Palestinians in a way that deprives them of their sovereignty and dignity they should try empathetically occupying their point of view and their hearts to de-radicalise and de-traumatise them of trauma they caused them. Not mine and dig within their own traumatic history to justify the trauma and death they are causing - death the stench of which it will take all the perfumes of Arabia to dispel.

''The so-called security barrier that Israel has been building on the West Bank since 2002 further encroaches on Palestinian land. Land-grabbing and peace-making do not go together: it is one or the other. Oslo is essentially a land-for-peace deal. By expanding settlements all Israeli governments, Labour as well as Likud, contributed massively to its breakdown. The rate of settlement growth in the West Bank and Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem is staggering. At the end of 1993 there were 115,700 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. Today there are over 500'000.'' Apparently, land grabbing is considered more important than peace and keeping the possibility of a two state solution open. No doubt Hamas leaders are corrupt and take a portion of the money for themselves. Building a desalination plant is a complex process that requires multidisciplinary expertise, multiple components parts and materials needed that could be restricted by the blockade due to their possible dual-use nature, and requires a stable and sufficient energy supply which Gaza lacks. I hope they have access to the gas off their coastal strip or is that Israels? I hope West Bank have access to their water or is that Israels? ''In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.'' - Amnesty International

Could it be said that the capitalists and right leaning pin the problem of low fertility on anti-natalists and gaia worshipers (partially true) but their own system of growth and business orientation fosters the very urbanisation, atomisation, technological innovation and economic inequality that leads to low fertility. Does early stage capitalism grow the economic pie that then births early stage socialism that attempts to divide the pie equally that then later stage capitalism and communism both crumble.

Overall correct. It just doesn't justify the disproportionate response or treatment of another people. Indians are disproportionately in positions of power in Tech companies in US and also add to the quality of communities but that doesn't allow their ethnicity back home to then be disproportionate and discriminatory in their treatment of any other group be it a minority (muslims) or one different to them.

@Vrubel The political centre of gravity in Israel has moved so far right which makes it come across as far right to the West. The West green lighting Israel's actions up to now has partly been a way to wash away its guilt of its historic treatment of Jews which climaxed as the Holocaust - but you can't wash away and clean your conscience with more blood (of the Palestinians) which only causes further guilt. That limit can now be seen with the addition of New Zealand, Australia and Canada joining in on the UN vote to support ceasefire just this week and Biden's latest comment. Tipping point has arrived. Bennet doesn't agree that Israel are even occupying and thinks that Palestinians already have a state - Gaza. Laughable. That's why he's seen as far right. The first few minutes below: And the below aren’t interviews of Israeli settlers but the general Israeli society:

To add to above regarding funding - it was just today that Saudi announced bidding to become majority shareholder of Heathrow Airport (UK's busiest airport). Whilst Saudi definitely wields its money - it's how it does so. It seems to be diversifying its assets away from dependence on commodities whilst Israel and the lobby directs it towards lining political pockets and its political agenda that support the status quo of Israel being discriminatory, dehumanising and un-dignifying to the Palestinians at its best if it can even be called as such - and destabilising the region at its worst.

I think a problem may be that people get hung up on the literal definitions of words too much and play semantics. If words are taken too literally of course they won't define what your trying to define, but also if their stretched to fit in things to absurd degrees to the point those words become only metaphorical then of course they can't be used to communicate effectively either.

There's only one country here not two - Israel. Apartheid simply means a two tiered legal system which is discriminatory.

@Raze That Norman / Alan discussion was like two heavyweights in the mental cage. When Norman smirked during Alans remarks you know had caught him out. @Danioover9000 Indeed. Need to aim to go meta and not get mucky in the mud as Leo mentions. The thread was going off the rails and Leo came to verbally slap us into line and away from our biases which was needed lol

I will do a gratitude meditation with just that in mind but would like to point out also to Israel and any Isrealis to be grateful to have allies and friends that come to you with good intentions and are not rolling and drowned in the emotions your people are under that blinds your bloodshot vision and fogs your brains in the fog of war. It can take a dispassionate look at the problems of reality and your situation to come to the most compassionate solution for all - though those busy in vengeance and war will reframe this otherwise. When Isreals foot reflexively straightens and pushes down on the accelerator of retaliation and revenge locked into place - be grateful for that friend who will come to dislodge your foot and push down the brake to stop your nation and peoples going off the cliff that you not only drag yourselves off of but the regions - maybe even the world, including that very friend.

People with different intentions will call for a ceasefire. They could just want genuine peace and to stop innocent lives being lost, they could be Hamas supporters that want them to have some breathing space to regather and re position strongly to counter Israel or they could genuinely see that this non stop destruction Israel is committing is actually the real threat and loss of security for Israel. As can be seen from todays news from Biden and as Osama Bin Shapiro's love letter stated - Israel can't afford to lose its main or only ally in a region it can't afford to be lonely in. The same day Biden says that Bibi can’t deny a Palestinian state the Israeli ambassador says no to one.

Think this one, I’ll add some more videos maybe you aren’t used to seeing due to algorithm and echo chambers. Excuse the captions as obviously people post them with anger and hatred but they still show things words can’t describe or that aren’t trusted.

Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former head of National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 21 November: “Our mistake is that we accepted the American narrative, which is false, that says in Gaza we have—what? The Hamas, which are very bad people—kill them. And next to them there are two million poor good people, and they should be cared for. Not just not kill them, but also that [Israel) should make sure they have water and food and medicine and even fuel to operate their electricity and sewage systems and other things. That’s a very severe mistake. Wars aren’t won when you kill the last of the combatants of the other side. Wars are won when you collapse an adversary system. The weakness of the adversary system [in this case] is not on the military side—Hamas’s military [branch] is very strong, very organised, very well equipped, and the tunnels give [them] very very very significant ability and durability.” Interviewer: “So what are you saying, that we shouldn’t care about what happens to civilians in Gaza, that it shouldn’t be a consideration of Israel [in the fighting]?” Eiland: “No, not that we shouldn't care—we should care [and make sure] that there is a severe humanitarian disaster there, and severe epidemics, and horrible pressure, and cries to the sky—because that's how wars are won” Interviewer: “These are not things I've heard from you in the past” Eiland: “These things are a necessity of reality. Israel is in no less than an existential war…” Interviewer: “Right, but how does a humanitarian disaster in Gaza serve Israel’s interests?” Eiland: “A humanitarian disaster is the only way to bring about the end of the war in a desirable way. Think about it this way: the poor women of Gaza, who are they? They are the mothers and sisters and wives of the Hamas murderers. Gaza’s system, unlike [its characterization by the US which I mentioned earlier] that there is Hamas and there are civilians—it is not true! Gaza is a state that is entirely united around its leader and its ideology for 15 years, without any dissent and with enthusiastic support…. The weak point [of Gaza] is their civilian population, and when it cries to the sky, maybe Sinwar, who is a psychopath, won’t be interested. But the thousands of Hamas terrorists, whose mothers and wives and children who will start suffering from severe illnesses, are the point of weakness. If we want to win the war—that’s how you win a war”

And that's people who are on this forum exposed to Leo's body of work and self development, non duality and love etc lol

@Nivsch Yes, it’s important to look into why the proposals for a state have been rejected. This post covers some of it.

Just entertainment and some intellectual stimulation at this point lol. Despite the lack of good faith and respect for Palestinian life some decent rebuttals and points are made which I welcome to expand my understanding.

I don’t deny the atrocities or suffering of October 7th. Let’s just not deny what caused that to happen and will continue to make happen if the root cause isn’t fixed - which you think is partly Islam and Palestians ‘self - tyranny’. Even if they do self-tyrannise themselves as you say, why further tyrannise the poor guys on top of it then. Give them a break, give them a chance, give them a state so they can go tyrannise themselves in it and away from Israelis but no - Eretz Israel belongs only to the chosen people. Maybe you’re not exposed to opposing viewpoints as you live in Israel and within an echo chamber of pro Israeli media. So hearing others views here is like sandpaper to your worldview and it stings to hear but it’s important for Israel’s own good to not become insular and entitled to their vengeful actions. Israel apologists who are obsessed with Israel’s right to self defence don’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress - though they deny occupation and oppression even occur.

1/2. Depends how old the videos is - before or after blockade. Regardless - it was a relatively nice place and some aspects remain or look nice despite Israel’s blockade and siege because it’s been a hub of trade and commerce for Paleatianians for a long part of their history - a history you deny. So your claim for them to be useless and not ‘builders’ of anything is false then? So they’re not ‘cancers’ on earth? The fact they’ve maintained whatever they had despite Israel’s blockade and siege is due to their creativity and adaptability. 3. Of course 1 is too many and the suffering is valid. I’m not denying atrocity. But exaggerating them and blasting claims to demonize Palestinians to such an extent as to justify Israel’s actions is where the problem lies. It’s the same with the incubater baby hoax that would secure US support to get involved in the Gulf war. The daughter of a Kuwaiti ambassador to the US made claims of babies being unplugged from incubators and left to die - actual babies have been deprived of resources needed to sustain incubators in Gaza which have been documented in recent weeks. IDF and Israel isn’t a trust worthy authority as they’ve been caught out lying many times in the past and including during this war. It’s frankly embarrassingly - to the point my Israeli friends feel embarrassed to even associate with Israel. Social media has made their propaganda much harder to work. 4. Over half the people alive today didn’t vote for Hamas as they weren’t born or just children - children you said you don’t care die so why should anyone listen to you when your coming from such a extreme place of bias. You think you support Israel but you do them a disservice by your comments as people see them and associate Israel supporters with your sentiments - which are extreme. They didn’t vote for them to ‘kill’ but to govern and resist as they had the most back bone to do so - they didn’t have much choice at the time to emancipate themselves with. Would Nelson Mandela be deemed a terrorist today for freeing his people? So if Americans vote in their leaders and America goes to war and kills people the American people are held accountable and by your logic deserve collective punishment? They weren’t necessarily cheering the massacring of people although sure some were and that’s sick. But to them what it symbolises was breaking free of Israel’s grip and boot on their necks. They were born into a place they could never leave or were heavily restricted from on the Egypt side. Work permits given in the later years only represent less than 1% of the population and then again - only to benefit Israel as they need the labour, not out of some benevolence. 5. If you claim to believe in the law of cause and effect then look at the cause and effect of October 7th - even if it shatters your world view. 6. It was just self created bro

So people who build less than other people are a ‘cancer’ on this earth? So holding a population captive for 18 years in dire conditions even before October 7th isn’t collective punishment? In the words of Norman Finkelstein “Palestinians have a right to hate the people that destroyed their lives” We can admit atrocities were done on October 7th, maybe not to the extent that’s been propagandised such as 40 beheaded babies and the like as those stories have been retracted on and no evidence shown. For the mass rape Israel denied any investigation because they deem UN anti semitic and even buried the burned cars because it would incriminate the IDF in the level carnage they did and killed their own people on October 7th also. So draw the distinction that Palestinians are not Hamas terrorists - yet you say they should be collectively punished? October 7th is a self created reality then lol this is when law of attraction and spirituality is taken to absurd degrees. Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks. And no this wasn’t sourced from a ‘untrustworthy’ antisemitic source but from Jewish virtual library - but you’ll probably just call them self hating Jews. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

@Lila9 You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting. You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself. If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’ How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge. Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves. @BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?