zazen

A state has its own laws, capital, border air and sea control, airports and ports, sovereignty in the fullest sense including to its own resources (water in West Bank and Gas off of Gaza). Why would the PLO who run their own 'independent state' allow settlement expansion? Palestinians may be governed under the pinky finger of Hamas and the PLO but both occupied territories are under the thumb of Israel, and the thumb is more dominant than the pinky - there's a reason people play thumb wars. If a jail guard exits a jail cell but still has the keys to that jail cell, is the prisoner really free or is he still occupied and controlled but this time from the outside.

Palestinians are 20% of Israels population. Pro-Israeli's talk about how they have a great life and no apartheid within Israel so how are you guys able to live side by side there? Are the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza a different type of Palestinian. I struggle to see how this all ends. A issue with the two state solution is that from the West Bank there is a direct sight of Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion airport - the elevated position and proximity means direct attacks and snipers are within range. I can understand why Israel would be hesitant about this, especially after bringing so much bad blood between them and Palestinians. Then you have settlers already placed in West Bank who are more extreme and armed now which makes them impossible to move. Then with Gaza it has been made uninhabitable and is still 'too risky' for Israeli residents to be living near such a place in Israel's eyes. So the two state solution the world is calling for seems difficult to achieve and something that Israel won't even allow. What you will effectively have is a militarily controlled land where Palestinians live but who aren't part of Israeli democracy - that is basically occupation and apartheid, similar to what is already the situation but without Hamas and with military check points within Gaza similar to West Bank.

Good listen, I haven't seen the Hamas statement yet but going by the video and from listening to previous analysts that seems correct. The fact that Hamas welcomes investigation and Israel doesn't also doesn't bode well for Israel - they buried the cars for example. No doubt its plausible that some atrocities took place at the hands of Hamas, the problem lies in the false amplification of it to justify what came next. That rape was was done at mass scale and that the sole intent of their operation was genocide - that this extends as a threat to the Western world and that this fight against Hamas is a fight for the free world as President Herzog claimed at Davos this week. Hamas is such a threat to the world that majority of the world call for a ceasefire and not to rid them from the earth. Good article: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2024-01-19/guardian-hamas-rape-sniff-test/ ''Did Hamas’ most disciplined elite fighters – training for years and knowing that this might be their only, brief moment to take on the Israeli army in a near-fair fight or drag hostages back to Gaza for a prisoner swap before the Israeli military used its air power to overwhelm them – really take time out to indulge in a sick game involving a woman’s breast? What we now know – from multiple credible Israeli sources – is that Israel killed lots of its own civilians on October 7. Ynet, Israel’s biggest media outlet, has just published an investigation in Hebrew showing that Hamas successfully took out Israel’s all-seeing drone “eyes” over Gaza that day, leaving the Israeli military blind about what was happening. Panicked, Israeli commanders invoked the Hannibal directive, allowing those in the field to order tanks and helicopters to fire at anything that moved. It was Israel that incinerated the hundreds of cars trying to flee the Nova festival, killing potentially hundreds of the 1,140 Israelis that died that day, as well as Hamas fighters. It was an Israeli tank that incinerated 13 Israeli civilians, and 40 Hamas fighters, holed up in a house in Kibbutz Be’eri by blasting a shell through its front wall.''

He's probably just taking a break. Like with covid or any conspiracy the question comes down to - was it created by the elites or opportunistically used by them. The two extremes are that every major event was conspired into creation or that no conspiracy is possible because the worlds too big and random + a world where a evil cabal exists is too scary to confront and fathom leading to learned helplessness. Truth lies somewhere in the middle - some events are conspired into existence and other times powerful people conspire around events already set in motion by the randomness of life. Countless hours can be spent discussing conspiracies but ultimately whichever the case - the weaponisation of something rather than the creation of it is bad enough to attribute some responsibility and ill intention which Nabd highlights and that people can often under appreciate. @Danioover9000 It's a bit more chill, that was just a Saturday night live over the weekend haha. Ken broke down current events well. Speaking of conspiracies and the grave digging in Gaza. There's been allegations and convictions of organ harvesting before including involved parties being Chabad in Brooklyn where they found tunnels recently - funny how that just got muted out of the media. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE56M3QU/ “Dozens of New Jersey politicians, officials and prominent rabbis were arrested on Thursday in a sweeping federal probe that uncovered political corruption, human organ sales and money laundering from New York to Israel, officials said.” Source: TrUsT mE bRo it’S nOt a CoNspiRacy

As long as it isn't a (WMD) weapon of mass distraction, distortion and deflection. Tackling antisemitism is important though as ignorant people mix the Jewish faith and people with hard line Zionism. I can imagine the headlines already 'light vs darkness' 'civilization vs barbarism' 'West is the best - a light unto the world from Plato to Nato'.

Could be a angered and delusional response to Bibi saying he wants to control all the land from the river to the sea just two days ago which is also a angered and delusional response to October 7th. Nonetheless, both parties are not good for peacemaking. The reason for Hamas's popularity is probably because they represent a warrior class / mentality - not as pacifist or weak spined like the party in West Bank which hasn't done anything to stop settlement expansion. When people are in oppressive situations they revert to the warrior types to stop that oppression before they can think about who is more competent at running and building a state. If someones being attacked the natural reflex is to focus on defending the attack before they can think about even shaking the hands of the attacker. The first priority is protection from oppression, nation building comes secondary. Israel won't get rid of Hamas or anything that takes its place until it gets rid of the conditions that inevitably lead to Hamas. The presence of Hamas is like the presence of sunscreen in Israel - a response to harsh environmental conditions. Hamas isn't some external alien entity imposed on Palestinians but naturally emerges as a result of conditions imposed on them within their homeland. Just as blood surely rises from a wound, resistance - even violent resistance arises from oppression and occupation. That's why a lot of criticism is directed at Israel more so than Palestinians because the root is the one causing the wound. Another issue with suffering and trauma is the victim hood weaponisation of it leads to entitlement. The suffering in Gaza can cause Hamas or Palestinians in general to become more entitled to the point of not being wiling to concede in any negotiations - the same way historical Jewish suffering has also caused Israeli's to become entitled. Both feel wronged to the point of stale mate negotiations that go no where - but Israel projects its feeling of being wronged by others (Europeans) in Jewish history onto the Palestinians who never committed such wrongs.

@Karmadhi Regarding what Leo said about Bibi being a serious politician and what Lina mentioned above ie Bibi not being a religious zealot but using them as a political base to garner/maintain power. This demonstrates political skill which is what Leo appreciates, not necessarily his soul.

People who are aware of history will claim up and down cycles are part of the game of life and that everything will go on - but miss the fact the cycle humans are now entering is one in which they possess the ability exterminate the players of the game itself. This is where spiritual ascension is needed - not in a detached manner ie the everything is fine bro all is maya anyway types but in a way that integrates and acknowledges human biology. What is overlooked for ‘progress’ is the limits of ancient instincts that when accompanied by modern technological tools wreak havoc and indulge the worst of those instincts which we can’t escape from. Biological evolution is way too slow for cultural and technological evolution - there exists a lag time that can prove deadly.

That’s a rude way of dismissing someone who’s poured their thoughts out at some length. In geopolitics, we need to consider the degrees and domains of a country's stance. A nation might adopt an isolationist approach in one domain while pursuing expansionism in another - if not driven by necessity it can be driven by greed and conquest. A country needs to expand in trade and political alliance to the degree it’s self sufficient. The more globalised the world, the more links in the chain exist for vulnerability, which means less sufficient nations need to secure those links whether diplomatically or violently - or through the paradoxical marriage of both ie war on terror being a guise for monopolising resources and inflated war profits. The problem is that regional wars of the past had less ripple effects in a less connected world of complex supply chains - the stakes are higher today. So you may not care what China or US do but it can definitely affect the things you do care about. When elephants (US/China) fight the ants get crushed.

No doubt Bibi is charismatic. This old clip of him when he was young shows this very well - strong voice, coherent and eloquent, well dressed, cares a lot for his nation - oozing charisma. But look at him today and he has dead eyes compared to the seemingly caring ones he had when younger. He’s still passionate, but passionate about his own success. Politics and the dirtiness of it has consumed him. It’s possible to appreciate competence without appreciating someone’s level of consciousness. Similar to sports athletes - you can appreciate the skillset and competence on display without liking their politics, personality or how they are in their personal lives - athletes who cheat or neglect family for example. You can appreciate someone’s skillset of leadership which has facets of cunning, shrewdness and manipulation - but not appreciate where exactly they’re leading to or how they go about it. Leadership is power - and power is its own allure and intoxication regardless of its morality. Just like the charismatic player who breaks hearts, political leaders lacking morality but possessing the skillset to lead often screw people over on their way to the top building a army of enemies behind them that could one day conspire their downfall. Often, these types of leaders will never know peace - their handshake means nothing and the cost of material success is that they sold their soul. The best and worst of men are cunning, shrewd and possess manipulative abilities - it’s how it’s used and to what end that matters. Do they use them benevolently or let it consume them like a malignant cancer.

Israel was established during a time when nationalism was popular but colonialism wasn’t. It was a humanitarian cause done on the back of European atrocities to the Jews culminating in the Holocaust - it was colonial power with the entitled colonial mindset which aided its establishment. British colonial interests married to a humanitarian interest. The right to self determination and national consciousness came into the world at that time, fine - but this doesn’t mean the right to self determination at the expense of dominating another group. The Palestinian locals were expected (without consultation) to give away a majority share of their land (56% in the partition plan) to a minority of recently arrived settlers who had been there at most 20 years and only made up a third of the population. If Israel’s creation had occurred this way a few decades/centuries earlier it would have encountered less global resistance and condemnation as it does in modern times as back then might was right. Any nations that remain from colonisation today (US, Australia etc) developed over a much larger span of time - multiple decades to centuries and during a time where strength was respected and accepted once it had established itself over weakness. Israel faces ongoing conflict and condemnation due to its perceived artificial creation and its ongoing occupation and subjugation of the inhabitants unlike states that organically evolve more naturally over time due to the geographic, political and cultural situation of the land and locals. Any remaining states that started as colonies do so by integrating the locals in a democracy. Israel wasn’t a grassroots movement so much as it was a top down implant by colonial power. People from elsewhere revived a dormant language (Hebrew) used mostly in the context of religion for their newly formed nation, claimed it as their native tongue and tied it to their ancestral land. This creation was not in harmony with the region's natural circumstances and naturally caused disruption as it was thrust on already existing people for which it had little context or receptivity. Maybe the project of Israel can be seen as a unnatural foreign imposition done in such a rapid space of time - in a time when colonialism was dying and in a world which now rejects any remains of it including the remaining colonial mindset that entitles one to take another's land and subjugate any locals resistance to this, which then gaslights this resistance as terrorism and any criticism as racist. The region still feels the shockwaves of Israel's inception and the locals are still undergoing oppressive dispossession till today.

Criticising a state doesn’t mean you want it to be erased. It’s being honest about how it came to be and how it currently is - Israel has to right its wrongs and stop committing more wrongs in the present. If Palestinians are completely free and sovereign why are they offered a state? Because they aren’t completely free or sovereign. The ‘number’ of offers is always talked about but never the nature of these offers - because they offer less than a state meeting the international standards for what a state is ie sovereign - words from Israel’s supposed best man for peace that is Rabin.

Seems pretty clear what’s being said - many pro Israelis will struggle to process it because the Israeli state has drip fed propaganda that’s slowly seeped in like microplastics from water. Or they privately agree but publicly deny this sentiment. Or maybe it’s just late where you are.

Palestinians can’t build a state if they don’t have one to begin with. Can anything guarantee that Israel will stop expanding settlements when they have power? Oh wait, they already do have that power and are doing exactly that - misusing it. That would go a long way in establishing more of a climate for peace. You left out this clip of Bibi from my post which I think deserves more attention. Keep in mind the definition of terrorism while watching the above: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Like your bio says: Never be afraid to sit a while and think 💭

@Nabd You provide great nuance to sitatuions that often goes under appreciated. I think where we view things differently as does BlueOak is not that there aren’t any micro interactions, factions and handshakes taking place in private but that on a macro scale the base presumption that US can just do as it pleases isn’t the case any longer. It doesn’t have the weight it used to be able to swing - not that it’s not powerful, it just isn’t the only powerful kid on the block. I commented this in the Israel/Gaza thread but it’s relevant here: Douglas McGregor is great 👍🏻 him and other similar voices are silenced or not given the spotlight because they go against the fantasy and ego of Western exceptionalism and the changing landscape of power dynamics underway. Advanced military, huge fire power and money spent doesn’t equate to victory like it used to. Older military paradigms are neutralised by modern day capabilities and geography. The same way gunpowder defeated bows and arrows, navy and sea superiority overcame impossible land invasions to allow for colonial conquest and fighter jets defeated battleships by air - ballistic missiles and drone technology today can neutralise threats from the sea and air at a fraction of the cost. In a war of attrition - “the conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose” Henry Kissinger Non state actors and ‘poorer’ less ‘developed’ groups can neutralise or provide challenges to advanced militaries due to tunnels, difficult terrain, missiles and drones. Even without drones and missiles - think Taliban and Vietnam. Houthis are far larger in number and have drones and missiles - and remain strongly intact despite already being bombed for almost a decade by Western munitions. The US/UK strikes didn’t do anything - in fact now US/UK ships will be blockaded. More inflation thanks to weak leaders and vested interests who can’t say no to the spoilt child they raised - Israel. They’d rather facilitate ethnic cleansing, death and destruction and try to maintain their imperial image of top dog instead of being embarrassed by ‘poorer primitives’ - after already being embarrassed in the Middle East and Ukraine. Now Israel want to go for Hezbollah and drag in the US and possibly Iran. Bibi stated he wants complete control of the land from West of the Jordan river to the sea - as good as saying from the river to the sea - something pro Palestinians are criminalised for saying but that the other side can say lol. Hypocrisy. The reason Iraq has been home to many empires/invasions and Afghanistan hasn’t but is instead the grave of them has a lot to do with geography. Iraqs terrain is flat which allows for easier invasions and ongoing wars - similar to European wars that allow for tanks to move across plains and fields that would never work in say the jungles of a Vietnam or mountains of Afghanistan. Iran is less mountainous than Afghanistan but more warrior oriented than Iraq. The West wrongfully thought they could take over Afghanistan as they did Iraq - it would be foolish to think the same for Iran. Also a great video to watch:

Horrible. This cycle needs to stop but it must be acknowledged why it exists. If Palestinians are denied a state, but are controlled internally in West Bank and externally in Gaza - leaving them in a limbo - that’s basically apartheid and occupation. That’s what the situations been and what Israel wants to maintain as the status quo, which endangers its image and its people by continuous resistance. While watching the above video keep in mind the definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

No ones denying the Holocaust or that October 7th was terrible. What is denied by a lot of pro Israelis is the context behind such an atrocity and the reaction to that atrocity being completely disproportionate - all in the name of defence. Israel isn’t at threat existentially - Hamas don’t have a navy, airforce, nukes, tanks or the numbers to invade. It was partly border negligence, partly incompetence, distraction (personnel in West Bank) and who knows what else (conspiratorial) that allowed them to pour in the way they did and with the delayed response from the IDF. Israel becoming a pariah state puts it at risk more than Hamas. Defying international law by saying they will go ahead and do as they please despite the ICJ hearing - and Bibi denying a state and confirming they want complete control of the land (from the river to the sea) despite the world opinion including Israels main backer (US) wanting a two state solution to settle the situation. IDF mocking the war situation on tik tok continuously also puts Israel at further risk of isolation by how disgusting the behaviour is. The Gazans were criticised for celebrating the October 7th breach of the fence (whether they knew war crimes were being committed and that’s what they were celebrating is another thing) but what’s not acknowledged is the same criticism of the IDF’s mockery of their actions in Gaza which Israel should temper for its own sake and image of its people.

Iv seen this documentary circulated around before call Tantura. The problem is that these men were traumatised from Germany and then inflicted further trauma which has led to a back and forth till today.

Douglas McGregor is great 👍🏻 him and other similar voices are silenced or not given the spotlight because they go against the fantasy and ego of Western exceptionalism and the changing landscape of power dynamics underway. Advanced military, huge fire power and money spent doesn’t equate to victory like it used to. Older military paradigms are neutralised by modern day capabilities and geography. The same way gunpowder defeated bows and arrows, navy and sea superiority overcame impossible land invasions to allow for colonial conquest and fighter jets defeated battleships by air - ballistic missiles and drone technology today can neutralise threats from the sea and air at a fraction of the cost. In a war of attrition - “the conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose” Henry Kissinger Non state actors and ‘poorer’ less ‘developed’ groups can neutralise or provide challenges to advanced militaries due to tunnels, difficult terrain, missiles and drones. Even without drones and missiles - think Taliban and Vietnam. Houthis are far larger in number and have drones and missiles - and remain strongly intact despite already being bombed for almost a decade by Western munitions. The US/UK strikes didn’t do anything - in fact now US/UK ships will be blockaded. More inflation thanks to weak leaders and vested interests who can’t say no to the spoilt child they raised - Israel. They’d rather facilitate ethnic cleansing, death and destruction and try to maintain their imperial image of top dog instead of being embarrassed by ‘poorer primitives’ - after already being embarrassed in the Middle East and Ukraine. Now Israel want to go for Hezbollah and drag in the US and possibly Iran. Bibi stated he wants complete control of the land from West of the Jordan river to the sea - as good as saying from the river to the sea - something pro Palestinians are criminalised for saying but that the other side can say lol. Hypocrisy. The reason Iraq has been home to many empires/invasions and Afghanistan hasn’t but is instead the grave of them has a lot to do with geography. Iraqs terrain is flat which allows for easier invasions and ongoing wars - similar to European wars that allow for tanks to move across plains and fields that would never work in say the jungles of a Vietnam or mountains of Afghanistan. Iran is less mountainous than Afghanistan but more warrior oriented than Iraq. The West wrongfully thought they could take over Afghanistan as they did Iraq - it would be foolish to think the same for Iran.

And Galit had said at ICJ that Hospitals aren’t targeted. The same day all Universities have also been destroyed. IDF had been using it as a military base for a month, and destroyed it by laying over 300 mines - obviously no Hamas presence there or they wouldn’t have been able to use it for a month or lay mines. If the reason isn’t obviously to destroy Palestinian history or make Gaza uninhabitable then I look forward to the creative reasons.

“The Hague Invasion Act is a United States federal law described as "a bill to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution by an international criminal court to which the United States is not party. The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court" Unfortunately, this is the “rule based order” that the global south are current opposing and building parallel systems to if not upheld in principle. If we read that act and then the definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims - makes one step back and see the world in a different way.

This you? You’ve made good points before but how can people take you seriously when you’ve said you don’t care about dead Palestinian children? This forum has a thread enthusiastically trying to understand the Nazi mind and an ultra-Zionist on it lol. Trippy.

Great interview with Israels spokesman. A lot of push back on Israel’s strategy.

This is just one of the reasons apart from a few others why this conflict has so many people involved in it - because its not only the scale of destruction but the time scale its done within and the calculations going on in peoples minds that at this rate if it continues how many more deaths will there be. The reason for the speed of operations is also because Israels army is made up of civilian-reservists who are usually in the economy working and providing much needed money required for extended wars and operations. On top of that, you have 10's of thousands of locals from north and south who aren't living by the border anymore and are being housed at the states / tax payers expense - this is unsustainable economically. People did care, they protested a lot in London. It’s just not to this scale for multiple reasons. First, the Palestine issue has been ongoing for a long time which builds up momentum for the cause - it remains in peoples consciousness especially when every few years theirs operations and civilians dying. It’s a holy land sacred to a lot of people in the world. The people there are captive and don't have any safe place to flee to or seek refuge unlike other wars. Also, the implications of this conflict and how it can easily develop into a regional war which has global impact due to its geostrategic location (near a lot of the worlds most important resources and transport lanes) + the players involved (Israel - a US ally, and proxy Iran groups) which can spiral also into world war 3. This thread is about Israel / Gaza so people will clearly discuss about that here. If a country is causing destruction and humanitarian crises to another people it's not a good look for that country to use deflection and play whataboutism. If a robber robs someone and a bystander starts lecturing the robber on the injustice of his act and that he should stop, then robber says 'oh but the high tax rate robs people of their hard earned money anyway so what?' people would laugh.

Hopefully we're not here in 10 years discussing another uprising and ethnic cleansing 'self defense' campaign. The existence of Israel (as it currently is) implies there would be thousands more incidents of discrimination, oppression, detained and uncharged minors and settler expansion. At one point, they decide enough is enough. Nice shares as usual. It's odd that to care about the safety of your hostages you decide to anger the ones holding them even more and in fact put them in harms way by your 'methods of rescue' ie unleash bombzilla on the small piece of land they're contained within. Usually hostage situations involve special ops or negotiations, not all out assault. Distortion, denial and deflection. Metaphorically its like a man (Israel) slapping another man (Gaza) then saying he did't slap him but his hand did - and then he starts to complain and play victim for his hand hurting.