Wilhelm44

Kinda like when you told me to "turn on my brain for once." lol Even in this very last paragraph you are putting out the same kind of energy that ur accusing Leo of. If the teacher shoots down your realizations and it hurts your feelings, then maybe your realization was not that solid to begin with.

@zurew Just to recap, when I asked what it is that you want from Leo, this was your response: "if it is truly just about the work, then I would not expect him to judge and demonize other leaders and other traditions and to waste time on that and I wouldnt expect him to consistently and continously claim to be the most developed person (especially when literally no one asks for it) and I would expect him either again to provide an indepdent process from him by which you can judge whether you are wrong or not and an indepedent process by which you can judge your level of understanding or If he cant do that, then I would expect him to be actually open to the possibility that he is wrong (not just claiming that he can be wrong, but actually seeing that he qualifies his satements and that he leaves room for others to be right and him being wrong) and I would expect him to qualify his statements and I would expect him to treat spiritual disagreements as something that potentially in principle both party can learn from (and not automatically think from the get-go in literally every single exchange that the other person is necessarily wrong or self-deceived from the fact that they disagree with him)" And when I asked on what specific spiritual truth/realization issues do you disagree with Leo the most on, your response started with: "I don't have that kind of disagreement (with him) . . ." Something don't add up: You say you don't like Leo's behavior in disagreements, but what exactly is the disagreement about in the first place then, if you don't have any disagreements with him on spiritual truth/realization ?

Not exactly sure what you mean by a profound person. But yeah you can have charisma without being awkened. And my guess is there are quite a number of enlightened people out there who are not on youtube or in a spiritual community.

Yeah, it defintely feels softer and looser. Can't say I have seen through it all the way. But can a character in a dream really be called real ? What did Leo say, you just imagined your birth. And Adyashanti has this analogy of the character we believe ourselves to be, being like a child in the front passenger seat with its own play play steering wheel, honestly believing it's driving the car. 🙂

I am curious, on what specific spiritual truth/realization issue, do you disagree with Leo the most on ?

What is it that you want from Leo tho ? I mean imagine if you went and challenged Adyashanti for example. Do you really expect him to abandon his own realization and just go: "Yeah, I can see how you could be right." Probably not going to happen, is it ?

Yeah, but the original point is that you framed all these complaints in cultish terms. The fact is that you are completely free to have whatever realizations you want and no one will stop you here. The style that the teacher uses in disagreements is a different story, and merits some discussion. I'm sure Leo will respond if you stick to the actual complaints, without throwing the cult insinuations in right off the bat.

I think the point is that if you disagree with the teacher, why even try to get the teacher to verify your position, it's probably not going to happen, is it ? If you have a realization that's different, then so it is, it's fine.

Aha, I hear you. Would be curious to hear @Leo Gura's response to this ?

I don't think people realize how unique this forum actually is. Do you think at a Tolle or Spira or Adyashanti etc meeting you'll be allowed to full on challenge them on their realizations ? You'll probably just be redirected by the organizer to ask a question. There's a whole bunch of people here with different flavors of realizations and I honestly don't feel pressured to agree with Leo on everything. If you find yourself constantly challenging the teacher in some way, then maybe the time has come to be a teacher yourself, or maybe not, who knows.

Spot on.

Thank you, I am busy reading through the links you shared. I don't think you answered my full question though. I acknowledge that you felt manipulated. And I'm sure Leo has some blind spots in the way he goes about things. But my question was, did you feel manipulated "for nefarious purposes" ? ie to be financially, sexually or otherwise literally exploited in some way. Or was it ultimately just Leo defending his position in a not so enlightened way.

I didn't think of that. You're already planning your own breakaway cult, aren't you ?

I hear you, it's a complicated matter, and I'm sure I don't have all the info. I'm a simple man, and I feel there is also some value in being direct and to the point. Can you honestly say that you feel unsafe, or manipulated for nefarious purposes, here in any way ?

Bro I addressed one of your points and you didn't respond. I assure you my brain is working fine. You're the one who's beginning to sound like a bit of a dick now.

I grant you that, Leo is rough around the edges, when it comes to responding to people with different realizations than him. But think about it, what does he have to gain by doing so. He'll probably just piss some people off who end up leaving. He's not nefariously trying to manipulate you to stay here forever. Cults tend to live together, and manipulation is used to keep the thing going. Seems like all the behaviors you guys are complaining about, will just cause some people to leave. That doesn't make sense if you really wanted to have a cult, now does it ?

So you are acknowledging that I successfully addressed at least one of your points of criticism. Bring on the rest. (I assume I was successfull because i heard no counter argument from you. All I heard was annoyance at me addressing one point at a time.)

Of course, this is so serious, that it's too much effort for you just to spell out in a nutshell why you feel this is a cult. I asked unborn tao the same strait forward question and all he could do was to refer me to some teal swan thread. I bet you wont answer me either.

So scary being in this cult bro. Im not sure how I'm going to get out of it.

Oh God, please remind me, what is the actual criticism in a nutshell ?

And that one thing i mentioned triggered you for some reason. If this place is a cult then no place isn't. It's just an online forum for God's sake, you're free. No one said Leo was perfect, but Jesus man, calling this a cult is a bit of a stretch.

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