Wilhelm44

@zurew " if you let the leader to be the exclusive norm itself, that in that case he will automatically create a cult." I don't think Adyashanti or Tolle etc are using some independent development rating system at their meetings. Does that mean they are also cult leaders ?

Well yeah, I mean if people want to rate themselves according to some system, they are free to do so. Somehow I just can't do that to myself.

Okay I hear you. Personally, I'm not relying on Leo to tell me how well I am doing or not.

I'm not saying the character is false or wrong or something like that. But if I was convinced that all I am is the character, then I would be incorrect. Surely you can agree with that ?

How would you even go about setting up independent norms and standards for determining people's level of development ?

Totally agree, even if you were holidaying on the best tropical island, you would eventually get tired of it.

Still, claiming to be the best in your field, doesn't mean it's a cult.

Claiming to be the biggest expert on the topic of epistemology, is not exactly the same as saying you're the most conscious being on the planet. I haven't heard him use the latter phrase for quite a while.

I don't think the relevance of these human processes are being denied. I think the word real here is being used in the sense that: your body and psychology can't possibly be your true identity. If it were your true or real identity, then you would completely cease to exist when the body dies. Atheists believe they are real, that's why they trying to find ways to live forever.

Hasn't Leo eased off a bit lately on the im the most conscious being in the universe thing ?

From what I read on carl richard's posts one of the issues is public shaming. This doesn't seem to be an issue tho when someone posts low quality content and its immediately shut down with a low quality stamp for everyone to see. No one is holding their hand on that one, rightly so. I think if people dont want to be publicly told their realizations are wrong, then rather do a private message. This is Leo's school, so he has every right to tell you in no uncertain terms if he feels you are wrong. What you do with that is your business. If you guys had stuck to the actual complaints, without throwing in the cult accusations right away, Leo probably would have answered you by now. Cult accusations are not a joke.

Kinda like when you told me to "turn on my brain for once." lol Even in this very last paragraph you are putting out the same kind of energy that ur accusing Leo of. If the teacher shoots down your realizations and it hurts your feelings, then maybe your realization was not that solid to begin with.

@zurew Just to recap, when I asked what it is that you want from Leo, this was your response: "if it is truly just about the work, then I would not expect him to judge and demonize other leaders and other traditions and to waste time on that and I wouldnt expect him to consistently and continously claim to be the most developed person (especially when literally no one asks for it) and I would expect him either again to provide an indepdent process from him by which you can judge whether you are wrong or not and an indepedent process by which you can judge your level of understanding or If he cant do that, then I would expect him to be actually open to the possibility that he is wrong (not just claiming that he can be wrong, but actually seeing that he qualifies his satements and that he leaves room for others to be right and him being wrong) and I would expect him to qualify his statements and I would expect him to treat spiritual disagreements as something that potentially in principle both party can learn from (and not automatically think from the get-go in literally every single exchange that the other person is necessarily wrong or self-deceived from the fact that they disagree with him)" And when I asked on what specific spiritual truth/realization issues do you disagree with Leo the most on, your response started with: "I don't have that kind of disagreement (with him) . . ." Something don't add up: You say you don't like Leo's behavior in disagreements, but what exactly is the disagreement about in the first place then, if you don't have any disagreements with him on spiritual truth/realization ?

Not exactly sure what you mean by a profound person. But yeah you can have charisma without being awkened. And my guess is there are quite a number of enlightened people out there who are not on youtube or in a spiritual community.

Yeah, it defintely feels softer and looser. Can't say I have seen through it all the way. But can a character in a dream really be called real ? What did Leo say, you just imagined your birth. And Adyashanti has this analogy of the character we believe ourselves to be, being like a child in the front passenger seat with its own play play steering wheel, honestly believing it's driving the car. 🙂

I am curious, on what specific spiritual truth/realization issue, do you disagree with Leo the most on ?

What is it that you want from Leo tho ? I mean imagine if you went and challenged Adyashanti for example. Do you really expect him to abandon his own realization and just go: "Yeah, I can see how you could be right." Probably not going to happen, is it ?

Yeah, but the original point is that you framed all these complaints in cultish terms. The fact is that you are completely free to have whatever realizations you want and no one will stop you here. The style that the teacher uses in disagreements is a different story, and merits some discussion. I'm sure Leo will respond if you stick to the actual complaints, without throwing the cult insinuations in right off the bat.

I think the point is that if you disagree with the teacher, why even try to get the teacher to verify your position, it's probably not going to happen, is it ? If you have a realization that's different, then so it is, it's fine.

Aha, I hear you. Would be curious to hear @Leo Gura's response to this ?

I don't think people realize how unique this forum actually is. Do you think at a Tolle or Spira or Adyashanti etc meeting you'll be allowed to full on challenge them on their realizations ? You'll probably just be redirected by the organizer to ask a question. There's a whole bunch of people here with different flavors of realizations and I honestly don't feel pressured to agree with Leo on everything. If you find yourself constantly challenging the teacher in some way, then maybe the time has come to be a teacher yourself, or maybe not, who knows.

Spot on.

Thank you, I am busy reading through the links you shared. I don't think you answered my full question though. I acknowledge that you felt manipulated. And I'm sure Leo has some blind spots in the way he goes about things. But my question was, did you feel manipulated "for nefarious purposes" ? ie to be financially, sexually or otherwise literally exploited in some way. Or was it ultimately just Leo defending his position in a not so enlightened way.