Wilhelm44

Japan against Moricco in the finals.

Of course.

Aha, got it. I think that yesterday you narrowed this whole drama down to 3 very succinct points. Hopefully one of the mods will approach Leo soon with some kind of formal statement, so that resolution can be found, and we can finally close this thread.

The point is that if everyone in a group has potential psychotic tendencies, then by these metrics, no one would qualify as a suitable leader. ie if you were the leader of this group, there would also be the potential for you to lose it one day and steer the group down a dark path, just as would be the case for everyone else here.

Okay, but can you agree then, that by that very definition of using suicidal moments as pointers to psychotic tendencies, that most people on this forum have potential psychotic tendencies ? Have you not had any suicidal moments in your life ?

Indeed

True. I would be curious to know though if there is an actual example of a cult out there, who did place a heavy emphasis on teaching epistemology and critical thinking, and still ended up going down a dark path ?

I would just like to add one final point, and then I'm done. By using suicidal moments as part of your case to point to psychotic tendencies, you are basically including everyone in the spiritual world. (Because once again, hands up everyone here who has never had a single suicidal moment in their lives.) Therefore it would be best to stick to those other or additional facts you mentioned, in the process of determining psychotic tendencies. So whether or not some supposedly smart psychiatrist thinks that suicidal moments points to psychotic tendencies, if you include that metric, you are basically excluding most spiritual people in the world from being seen as suitable leaders to any group. Because by that very definition then we all have psychotic tendencies here. Suicidal moments can also point to a powerful rebirth, but this is language that most psychiatrists probably wouldn't understand.

Nice, 3 simple points. (You're a proper sharp debater. Finally some rest.)

@zurew So just out of curiosity, if Leo stopped calling himself the most conscious person on the planet. And if he qualified his statements about other people's awakenings, by saying that he could be wrong, would that be enough for you not to view this place as a cult anymore ? ie what would ultimately tilt it from being a cult to not being a cult, for you personally ?

Points taken.

Fair enough. (I guess I just got triggered in the moment, I wouldn't want someone describing a suicidal event of mine as proof that I might not be a suitable leader. But I hear what you're saying.)

What additional facts do you have that relate directly to that suicidal moment ?

Kinda like you refusing to answer my original question yesterday. Okay bro, just to make you happy, lets say it wasn't a low blow. Are you able to acknowledge that it's kind of a mute point then, considering that pretty much everyone on the spiritual path go through suicidal moments at one point or another. (Hands up everyone here who have never experienced a single suicidal moment in their life ?) Lets see if you are able to acknowledge that point.

A psychiatrist's office would be a different setting, wouldn't it ? Is Carl a psychiatrist ? Plus that means that most of us here are potentially psychotic, if we have had suicidal moments. A psychiatrist would think that an awake person is crazy to begin with.

Has Leo been evaluated by a psychiatrist who said he had psychotic tendencies ?

Experiencing suicidal moments, at one point or another, is probably part of most people's journey, who are on a spiritual path. But I could be wrong.

Okay bro. I responded to Carl's specific comment in the moment. Still, using an absolute low point in someone's life, like a suicidal moment, to make your point, is not cool. Suicidal moments by their very nature are messy.

I meant that referencing a suicidal moment in someone's life, as part of building your case for potential psychotic tendencies, is a low blow. (suicidal moments can be messy.)

Incorrect. I will say it now clearly for the last time. I only implied that one of his points might be invalid with regards to the psychotic symptom issue. I did not imply that his other points with regards to this issue were invalid. If it makes you happy to believe in your mind that I am a bad faith actor, then go ahead.

Someone else might come along and wobble another leg of the table, who knows, it's a collective debate.

I did not imply that all his points might be invalid. I implied that one of his points might be invalid. That's all.

@zurew Stop being so arrogant/controlling as to how I should respond. I am under no obligation to respond to every every single point. I speak to what I feel I can speak to. And if you recall I acknowledged the issues I did not respond to by saying: "As far as the other issues go, I hope you and Leo sort things out, because I feel he still has some valuable stuff to teach." I made no claims that I somehow solved the whole thing. Ultimately the issues that you have with Leo's behavior, you will only be able to solve directly with him. Your beef is not with me. (Notice that in my interactions with you that you have used this as an excuse to ignore some of the points I made, by simply stating that I will not interact with you until you address all the points I have made, or something to that effect.) Also, I think Carl Richard can speak for himself.

I wasn't aware of this. I think most people here have had suicidal moments at one point or another. Using that as proof of psychotic tendencies is a bit of a low blow. If you're comparing Leo to a cult leader who lost it and decided that one of the members needed to be killed because they have negative energy, then my sense is that you might be underestimating him a bit. As far as the members that got banned, the only name I recognized there was Nahm. From what I recall he seemed to struggle to string together two coherent sentences at times. However conscious or not he may have been, he was mostly confusing to people, so I was not that sorry to see him go. As far as the other issues go, I hope you and Leo sort things out, because my gut says he still has some valuable stuff to teach.

Where is the best place on the internet, for people who are serious about spirituality, to hangout ?