fopylo

yeah @EmptyVase I know for certain I would like to use psychedelics in the future but a) I'm too young for it b) I don't have a way to get it and not a great time logistic wise The best I could get my hands on is perhaps weed, but even that isn't quite certain

(Let it fall, the beauty of the fall) Falling like a maple leaf Swirling through all my beliefs Into the magical garden (Where you belong) And here you seek Here, have a leak The wind knows Let it blow like this - (Let if fall, the beauty of the fall) Passing through all these places, inside of my mind Realizing the colors Let it fall, the beauty of the fall (Let it fall, the beauty of the fall) The beauty of the fall

Before answering that, I'd sincerely like to know if there's any value in expressing what I don't want, because sometimes it feels almost wrong to suppress saying what I don't want Easier done when it's only that, simply to choose goals, desires, and find a greater purpose to live for. Harder when you are confined with spiritual methods. A little poem I wrote: When methods seem pleasant, they seem pleasant to the mind The realm of conceptualizations, that you fall into, Which is - The opposite of truly expressing The opposite of truth

this (Basically going meta via realizing and feeling). It is only the believing the model is reality rather than part of reality. It is seeing reality through the lens of thought vs seeing the thoughts and the 'physical' reality as whole. I'd like to actually discuss this part. Actually I have issues with this emotional scale, relating to what we're talking about now. Since there are different emotions on the emotional scale I tend to try differentiating the different emotions, and when experiencing them, the way I can recognize them is often by comparing it with other emotions, subtly - which gets me in my head conceptualizing. Since there's more than one I must conceptualize in order to see the subtle differences in emotions. 2 is found only in thought - nahm Kinda where I am now. It is the middle path between not knowing and knowing, the path of conceptualizing standing in between. Yeah, grasping is conceptual. This process of fighting illusion with illusion is to help you realize an easier path, with the additional knowing of a tendency for you (and others) to believe a conceptual self. I didn't understand... What do you mean by "that's where the rubber meets the road"? What are you talking about? So then how are you practicing "raising your consciousness"/becoming more "you"/reaching home? Alignment and embodiment of what?

@EmptyVase Every concept/idea you have about spirituality, is not it. Every model of reality isn't reality. You can't capture it with your thoughts. Those are just thoughts (which you believe). - those words are starting to make much more sense lately. Sometimes I wish all you need to learn is hardly anything and just relax into this, instead of having to come up with a branch of a subject called spirituality which focuses on conceptualizing the actuality so that the mind can comprehend, which doesn't work as I just wrote in the last paragraph. Which is why learning spirituality can really destroy your "progress". Touché, thanks. Then this raises the question: why do people (highly 'spiritual' people) write books about spirituality, talk about the 10 ox heard tail, talk about enlightenment (talk about reaching it)? This is so much conceptualization... I mean that practicing meditation, engaging with spiritual content can get me really into my head conceptualizing this whole thing, which makes me feel very disconnected from my body and feeling. On the other hand, simply living without even engaging my mind much with spirituality can get me focused on the actions I take, my body, and feeling. Perhaps it doesn't make me any more intuitive though about what emotion I'm experiencing, but eh.. I don't know.

@EmptyVase Dude I just want to be free and have a deep understanding of reality and emotions. Classically, you start off by tending to believe thoughts which are later let go to realize it feels better. The real problem comes when you start believing spiritual concepts, it's so hard and confusing man... Really fucked up... (Not necessarily in a negative way). It's like the thing that's been taught will be later seen in actuality, just to then realize there's not that thing, but actuality exclusively, which it tries to point to. Can you see where I am on the path? You know, sometimes it feels even worse than just not meditating/engaging with spirituality. That way there is more flow at least. Not even trying to interpret my direct experience

@EmptyVase If no thoughts, then how do I know that I'm breathing? I mean, the way in which the breath feels is thought.. None of that seems to imply the feeling of the breath

@Nahm Hmm.. very interesting. It's very interesting how I'm starting to understand better the trap of mistaking thought for actuality. It gets me to question more what is real. So many thought, and many pointers (which are also thoughts) to be believed are the actuality. Gets me to question what is actual. It seems that by definition you can't explain actuality with language and thoughts. I'm literally living within concepts, perhaps that is what is meant by 'life is a dream'... Then how does the breath play in all of that? What is the relationship between the breath, feeling and emotions? Good to know You got it 100% right for me. This is the problem of spirituality - concepts about how to live the awesome life which are believed. Eventually, you need to let go of spirituality itself, to actuality live life like a normal fucking human being. I don't know how to express some of the emotions because I don't quite understand exactly what I'm feeling all the time. Still have attachment to thoughts about what I'm experiencing. And there's also conceptualization working when using the scale. Anyway, for been more intuitive, isn't meditation the answer, for becoming more intuitive about my emotions? - So that I can then use the emotional scale more effectively?

@EmptyVase Always? I'm not aware of my breath (don't feel my breath) most of the day.. But are you saying that the emotion which is felt, this feeling, is actually the feeling of the breath itself? Aren't you feeling your thoughts? Or perhaps your body sensations? What exactly are you feeling? It is still a thought though, even if the imagined breath points to the actuality of it. The trap continues of mistaking thought for actuality. So you say to decide on it one time, like set myself to do it and then to just go with it and forget about it? As long as you set yourself up to it, this is the important thing, which can replace the thinking about the intention you say, yes?

@Nahm Look, it's really difficult. I much prefer to sleep than wake up earlier than everyone else. I really don't feel like using some kind of method to express myself, I'm just too tired. Even if I'd do one of these methods I can't be doing it for 20 minutes as I don't have much time in the morning.

@BipolarGrowth Thanks, I'll try

@EmptyVase I don't know if I completely understood. I don't know how much I can confirm that. Then, what is felt exactly when feeling the breath, since breath is a thought? Breath is a thought. This is exactly the trap I'm talking about. I'm thinking the breath in order to confirm its existence (I need to imagine it in some way in order to go with it/ know the breath)

@Nahm I meditate like once every 2-3 days and it's not always in the morning, for about 20 minutes

It still does bother me. On the daily basis I obviously breath, but it's not as though I'm aware of my breath most of the day. Feeling with no thought, that means I can't have an imagined faint structure of my breathing. I need some vague thought that can at least present what I'm trying to focus on, or at least the thought of it being 'feeling from the breath". Would like to know what you think about it @Nahm@EmptyVase

@Nahm However when focusing on the experiences you don't have (basically focusing on those experience with the added thoughts that you don't have them) then you will experience insecurity/powerless. Not all experiences though. I cannot experience flying, being in a cartoon, the desire to still have my room (parents are getting divorced), to build a space company. And this also depends on whether you know what you want. Many times I have a quick thought of something I believe I want, then write it on the dreamboard just to realize it doesn't actually feel that good. Oh, and many times after I write it on the dreamboard I feel like I'm suppressing this desire, like I tend to not focus on it anymore, sometimes by force, because like I already wrote it down. Before I write it down usually I am still fantasizing about it.

@Nahm Hey that's exactly the message you sent me

@Jordan Thing is that my jaw area tends to tension when I focus on my breath

"The right response is still the ticket to heaven, nirvana, or at least to a happy and secure life. What a trap that can be! What at first seems to free participants ultimately binds them. Such approaches - releasing repressed areas of consciousness, positive thinking, transformational experiences, accepting things exactly the way they are, 'creative' problem solving, situational management, behavior modification, stress reduction, 'new' styles of thinking, and even certain forms of meditation - all attempt to teach people to respond to life or to the universe as if the circumstances were dominant. After years of practicing these various disciplines, people often still have not learned to create what they most truly want. All they have learned are textbook responses that promise, but do not deliver, success or salvation. This is because creating and responding are completely different species." This is powerful, I believe. It just shows us how much we try to solve our "problems", which is different from creating. When you try to solve a problem you are taking action to have something go away, the problem. When you are creating you are taking action to bring something into being, the creation. The quote above has really struck me, as I've been spending so much time (and still do) trying to "solve" my situation so that I can create music, via those beautiful deceptive methods that make you think you'll get the result you want (the methods in the quote). This is because deep down I feel powerless against my situation. @Nahm Would like to know what you think about this quote. I'm still not creating music by the way, still searching for stuff to solve, in the reactive-responsive orientation..

@Nahm @Nahm The thing is that wants change over time, so since the dreamboard is always next to me and I can see everything I wrote, should I erase the wants I no longer want?@EmptyVase Then what was the fucking point lol. Aren't you supposed to keep your dream board?

@Nahm But you do suggest I write it by hand (pen & paper) rather than on a note on my phone, right? What do you mean?? What if I write something specific but then after a few minutes change my mind? Also, instead of 'a girlfriend' could I just write 'girlfriend'?

@Nahm I'm leaving tomorrow to camp for another 2 weeks. I don't have a dry erase board at home. All I'm taking with me is my phone, although I still have a pen with me and I believe I could easily find a piece of paper. So what now? Oh, I get it. So to just write down anything I want regardless of the emotion I'm experiencing (meaning, without it having to necessary be the emotion of positive belief). Should I write each time "I want ___"? I have a speculation (I'll anyways try it out): Since I'm becoming more aware of what I want, I'll develop an instinct for knowing what I want, and I'll therefore be more clear, decisive, and truthful to myself. Since the focus is on "what I want" I may develop greater emotional understanding depending on what I want. I'll try not to think about it much though

@Nahm And in it I just write anything that pops to mind that I want... But what if it's just a quick thought of something I want for this moment which then goes away in seconds? And what if it's a long term goal? What if it is something I want out of jealousy? What if it involves other? What is the criteria? So then how could a dream bored help me in my life?

@Nahm Even though you haven't read the book I know that your understanding on this is great. Perhaps you could help me with the question of how do I find what I want? (and maybe you could add some wisdom of why it's important to know and note what you want...) thanks

@Nahm I would like to know what you think about it as well: So you start from the lowest emotions - fear, despair. Then you become insecure about the fear, despair. Then you become jealous of others because of your insecurity. Then you start hating your jealousy and you can get into a rage. Then you are angry from all this hate. Then you are discouraged already from all this anger. Then you want to blame someone or a situation from all this discouragement. Then, because that you blame alot, you worry because of all the blaming you believe to be true. You worry about your blames. Then, all this worry gets you to doubt yourself, someone or a situation. You doubt your worry. Then you become disappointed from doubting a lot. Then you become overwhelmed from disappointments. Disappointments about stuff you realize you can't do, can't achieve, and it overwhelms you. Then you get frustrated from all this overwhelment. Then you become pessimistic from all your frustrations, irritations, and impatience. Then you become bored already from all those pessimistic thoughts. Then you become ok (content) with this boredom. Then you become hopeful with this contentment. You begin to sense inspiration. Then you have a positive expectation/belief from/about this general inspiration that this moment brings. Positive expectations arise to those hopes. Then you get enthusiastic about your positive expectation you have, especially when you start having more positive expectations that build on each other. Then you become passionate about/from all this eagerness, excitement, enthusiasm. And then you become joyful from this passion you have. All this passion brings you to love this passion, appreciate it, feel the freedom it gives you. Basically this model I've tried to create is about showing how the emotions play meta on each other. How actually each emotion, when realized, is a part of the higher emotion, and going up the scale means realizing the emotion more. It is like a meta-chain. But going up the scale is only possible if you prefer to put how you feel before what you think. To care more about feeling good than being wright.

@Tristan12 Say that to @Nahm