WelcometoReality

@lmfao If it's grounded in you own enlightenment work then, yes, there is a point to talk about it. But if it's just a random discussion about spiritual concepts it's just a distraction.

@Nadosa Yeah the pendulum back and forth is no joke. But you are alone in this, completely alone.

@Baotrader if the body is in pain there will be pain unless you take painkillers. Is that what you are talking about or is it 'negative' feelings in the stomach area such as fear or anxiety?

It's easy to take these spiritual concepts and turn them into beliefs about reality. These beliefs manifests in the body as those negative feelings you describe. What are actually true in your own experience? Are these beliefs true? Do you identify with nothing or a person?

@CroMagna Yes do nothing meditation is a way to let go of control. The desire to quiet the mind is the will to control.

What is it that wants to be without thought?

Why? I'm sure mind will come up with alot of answers. But there is no answer to this. It just happens. 1. There is no source. 2. The same reason we do the laundry or go out for a walk.

Do you have to silence it, can't you just stop listening to it?

@non_nothing In a conversation between two people one talks while the other one listens. The talk. What does the talking? The listening. What listens?

@Brivido You don't have to read about it, you can investigate that within your own experience.

@NoSelfSelf It's like @Hellspeed said, a transitional stage. It takes a while for the realization to purge the body.

@Tony 845 To proceed with the discussion I think it's good that we define the different applications to using a therapist and then rule out the applications that would'nt be needed in an enlightened society. The applications that I can see is: Ego-related issues like lack of self esteem, mentally induced depression etc. group dynamics like family and small businesses "Bad" Behavior patterns Addictions Drugs, porn, work, gaming Physical disorders like borderline, depression, bipolar, shizophrenia Feel free to add to the list. The first one I would rule out is Ego-related issues. Those would fall away after awakening.

@FredFred Different states come and go. Those are not problems. But what is it that want to hold on to different states?

@danton Why do one or the other? You can have a spiritual practice alongside your ordinary life. Better yet incorporate the practice into your life so that's fully integrated with your daily chores.

That is a whole other topic imo. So you don't mistake any concept for truth?

Are you trying to get back there? Did you try to get there the first time?

What I'm saying is that they are two different things. That actuality is PRIOR TO concepts. They are not simultaneous. What is more real, the actual seeing or the concept of the seeing? And what if you mistake all these concepts of seeing for actual seeing. Wouldn't that be like living in a dream world?

Here is an analogy that hopefully makes sense. Think of a computer that contains an image file. The raw data on that file is just 0:s and 1:s. The computers uses a software program to interpret this data to create an image on the screen. Without the interpretation it would just be 0:s and 1:s on the screen. In the same way there is the raw data of seeing on the screen of awareness. The mind then interprets the data on the screen and makes distinctions like "my hand", "table" and so on. Actuality is the raw data on the screen. The software interpretations are mind creating the distinctions like "my hand" and "table". The looking on my hand practice is a way to bypass the software.

@Barna Isn't the expression of that self based on fear and rejection of the present moment and therefore based in illusion? Meet it with the loving and accepting self. Meaning when that self says no you say yes.

Can't take any credit. Shinzen knows his stuff. ? Yeah can we really stop resistance as it comes up? Maybe we just are more prepared/willing to accept the next time it comes up because we have experienced it before?

@SoonHei seems like things always can go deeper. And in the moment it always feels complete (like it never can go deeper) and maybe every moment is complete in its essence? Btw I like shinzen youngs equation Pain x Resistance = Suffering By that concept even a small amount of pain can give an infinite amount of suffering if the resistance is big enough. And a huge amount of pain doesn't have to produce any amount of suffering. Seems like those people resisted the trip alot.

@PsiloPutty Not a monk but a hermit. Monasteries felt to crowded for my taste.

I would really resist that. ?

The moment you try to grasp it it's gone.

Awesome! I've had a few myself. The hardest part is to do it when they are gone.