WelcometoReality

If your definition of real is that it hurts when you put it over a flame then yes it's real. In the levels of consciousness thread there was some people arguing that what was real was that which was unchanging meaning consciousness. And that appearances come and go and is therefore illusiory/imaginary.

You see your hand and think that it is real or imaginary. Whether you think that the hand is real or imaginary the thinking is layered on top of your seeing of the hand.

All conditioning will have to be faced. Every dark corner inside you. But you can just let it go. Some things can be harder to let go of and then you might find yourself in hell but it's just because you are unwilling to let it go.

Every thing is an egoic projection. Fear is a thing.

Maybe it's because you see others as real but believe that they are an illusion?

Certainly a great thread. Some very well pointed pointers here. ?

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Stop running and feel the pain fully. When we stop, the pain is only temporary but if we run from the pain it will continue until we do stop.

Yeah, Your definition of desire is not the way buddha defined it and therefore we can only compare the definitions. If you define it as the energy to do something then no, you cant create if you don't have desire. Yeah, you put it really well. You're not grinding against but towards. Perhaps we could call that a "higher" level of desire where you flow with the current rather than swimming against it. Not as exhausting I'd say. What I think is the most interesting with flow states are when we are so deep into it that there isn't a willful act to do anything rather things are happening effortlessly. No i is present but the body does what it does, creates, and when the flow state ends the i wakes up again almost as if it went to sleep. A deep topic indeed. ? It's quite interesting to observe the bodys ability to do without any conscious will. The problem that can occur is that either it's never recognized to be happening without effort because there is no i present or once it's recognized we want to involve in the process. ? I think what you say makes sense. Can't see any conflicting ideas. I like what you said about conflicting desires. Inner conflict will definitely cause suffering. I think Buddha has a point in what he says but his definition of desire is more specific. Meaning a lack in the present and moving towards a future goal. And with that definition I would agree that it's good to see through the illusion of desire. Happiness is right here and now.

That's it. ? Have you ever been in a flow state where things are effortlessly happening, is there any desire then? Also, have you ever burned yourself on a stove and was there a desire to remove your hand or did it happen automatically? I'd say that if life was a constant flow there wouldn't be any desire or i. Just life effortlessly unfolding.

I agree. Thank you for the clarification.

Yes, it is the same thing, only perceived in different ways. Yes, the mirage would be the world with all it's separate "things". It is in fact consciousness.

I see, so these distinctions are purely in the understanding and the error I made was to mix the understanding that @Shambhu was explaining with his actual experience. If so, as a follow up question I'd like to ask is: Is it experienced that form is the formlessness, that both are essentially the same, and not only an "appearance" within it? And I understand that from an advaita vedanta POV this does not make sense but can you intuit what I mean with the question? If not perhaps the better question is, how has this realization manifested in the world?

Have you read what I read to @Shambhu? I explain why that is a subtle form of separation.

I've definitely been guilty of many on the lower list. The top list is extensive and good imo. The ones that I resonated with most is nr 14 and 17. What does nr 26 mean to you?

I'm actually not assuming anything about you. Yeah understanding the top list is good then.

I don't know that. If you're not engaging in some of it then you don't need to let it go.

Not easy for anyone ? but yeah especially if you have trauma. It's not like you have to let go of everything at once. Just that which you're willing to let go of now.

If you let go of all this you'll probably end up in love.

Unless you genuinely want the truth and nothing else go for b otherwise do a but have a meditation practice for the benefits of having a meditation practice... imo

Yeah they do. ? They aren't perceived to be beliefs but reality. Until they are inspected that is. Then we see them for what they are.

Of course, now is all there is and enlightenment is waking up to that. You realize how ridiculous it was to believe that there was a future and past that was real. Waiting for what to happen? That is anticipation for some future event. If you do that you'll wait for a life time. So start seeing through the illusion that you are describing moment by moment. Because it hasn't been realized yet. You are already that which you'll seek. Just sink deeper into that which you truly are.

That which isn't an object but that which is all objects. Or rather there isn't objects. Objects are distinctions made by thought. All there is is consciousness.

I would say that beliefs are identification to thought and feeling patterns. But identification goes much deeper than beliefs, it actually alters the way we see reality.

I just want to add one final thing and that is that all distinctions is separation. If it's truly is ONE then no more distinctions is needed. Nothing more needs to be said. Of course we need to go our direct experience and see if there seem to be duality within it. If there is then more work needs to be done.