WelcometoReality

What about the heart sutra? Form is emptiness, Emptiness is form. The way you describe it has a subtle form of separation between consciousness and 'things'. Perhaps a better way to describe it would be the ocean and the wave. There is no separate wave. It is the ocean waving. Just as consciousness is thoughting.

Yeah, that's the better question to ask since the former presumes that enlightenment is a form of attainment but it's actually seeing through the illusion.

Yeah, he does call it the natural state. He also calls it as the stateless state which I think is a better description since it doesn't come and go. But natural also seem fitting since it's unaltered. Not to put too much emphasis on the words. It's all right here and now. No matter how ordinary now might seem to be.

@Gesundheit2 That's some good points. States come and go. If you're interested in exploring different states then that's fine but might be a distraction.

Desire stems from lack so it's always a struggle before the desired object is aquired. When we get the desired object the lack disappears but not because we got what we wanted but because the desire has stopped. You can see this for your self. Once desire "hits" you do you feel fulfilled or do you feel like something is missing? ? Desire is a complicated topic because there is a belief that desire brings happiness and hence desire is a positive emotion. And that if we let go of desire we won't get anywhere in life. That we will just lay in bed and do nothing. That doesn't really hit the mark because we can do anything we want even though we let the desire go. The only difference is there won't be any lack and all of life will start to feel fulfilling. We start to move to higher emotions such as courage, acceptance and love. Yes life is about expansion. However if we stay in the state of desire then expansion will stop and we will never get truly fulfilled.

@JonasVE12 well said. Also sometimes fear can be transformed into anger before going into courage, depending on the situation. But anger is a higher emotional state than fear as it has a tendency to move into action, moving towards what formerly has been seen as fearful than to avoid it. So don't be surprised if anger shows up.

I've found that sitting with the fear and feeling it fully to be the best way. That allows it to be fully transformed into a higher emotion.

@Dumuzzi Thanks for sharing your story. An awesome read for anyone who is into kundalini stories. ?

Wants (desire) is based on dissatisfaction, yes. Without desire and dissatisfaction there is still doing but without the struggle of desire. True. If the present only feels like a way to get to the future, the goal of the wanting, then it's based on desire. But if you're content with doing whatever you're doing in the present without any thought about getting there, be done etc the it's not based on desire. ? If you are discontent with the present moment just let go of the feeling that makes it seem that way and enjoy. ?

@Omni I understand that this might be scary but the ego doesn't dissolve completely after an awakening. It might take years of active practice after the awakening before enlightenment happens.

I see. It seems like you're more awake then you think you are. ?

I'm trying to convey something outside beliefs and concepts. Something I'm directly conscious of right now. You don't need to stop eating or die to be conscious of that.. but you need to die before you die. ? (not actually but it sounded funny) Desire can be transformed into higher feelings and then there is no more suffering from desire.

No, it doesn't seem like you're past the point of no return imo. But maybe it's a good idea to stop with any spiritual practices if you're not interested in taking it all the way.

Yeah, exactly. A moment is a snapshot in time and where the moment begins and ends is defined by thought. The present moment would better be described as presence, without a beginning or end.

Let go of the question because it's the ego holding on to prevent it to go down the slippery slope. ?

The deeper down the rabbit hole you go you'll know that it's deeper then you were before because you see. But it's only after you've gone deeper that this becomes clear.

Yes, thought are only a part of reality and does not create it but "things" are created by thought by defining "things". Where does a tree begin and end? If you contemplate this deeply you'll see that the only reason it begins and ends at certain points is because we have defined what the word "tree" points to in reality. Now let's say there's mushrooms growing on it. Are they a part of the tree or are they separate "things"? And if we remove the word mushroom would we still define them as separate "things"? So, that separate "things" exist and that all "things" make up reality is a belief. It's just that words are so engrained in us (beliefs) that we believe them. A tuna doesn't believe in "things" but can still notice differences in the "sense space". What do you mean by this? The way I interpret it is that without "things" there would be infinite things which seem contradictory to me. Depending on how you define suffering. To me suffering is only created by believing thought. I don't think they see it as being negative and it's not their goal to stop being an individual. Just stop believing in separation.

I see, so the appearance of "things" is what you call evil and without "things" there would only be good. I'd say that it's an illusion too. There are no separate "things" without a thought. There only seems to be separation but there is only unity. Nothing can ever be out of unity, it can only seem to be that way. Yes, surrender is the key to see unity but there was never any separation to begin with. So it's not a return to unity, it's like a veil that is lifted to see what always was. Which is unity.

It still takes a thought to distiguish something as good or evil so they are an illusion. Is a lion evil when it kills its prey or is evil only reserved for humans?

@Cireeric Thx for sharing your journey. ? Beautiful!

@Fernanda Our beliefs is what we hold to be true. We don't even think about our beliefs as beliefs until we consciously looked at them and seen them for what they are. We might still have the belief after it has been recognized but we don't cling to it anymore. Every belief that is held as true is a limiting belief but yes, well said. ?

Reality just is. Reality is being filtered through your belief system and is 'colored' by it, but the beliefs are taken to be reality. The self image is part of the belief system and so is autism. That might seem provocative so let me explain what I mean. You have a certain personality and parts of the personality there are certain traits that, when grouped together, science calls them autism. But you are you. You are just uniquely you.. And then you learn about autism, maybe get a diagnose and autism gets engrained in you. It becomes a part of your self image. So much that it enhances these traits. Then comes the belief that you must try harder to socialize. Because you have autism. So you go at it. You try really hard to start conversations but so hard that it gets repelled back at you. What if it's fine to just be you without trying so hard? Just be you. You want connection to other people and I get that. We all do. But aswell as looking outside yourself for connection maybe you also could try to find that inside of you that feels disconnected and connect to that part of you again?

The letting go technique works well with dealing with those negative feeling such as fear etc. They are the reason why everything feels like a struggle. When there's no identity to hold feelings down they come up more and more. By letting go you will start to dissolve these feelings and the body will feel lighter and less effort will have to be made to do things. If you want to know more of letting go David R. Hawkins book with the same name is very good.

@Dazgwny That's probably the response I'd have given you when I was at stage orange. Send you to the nut house and think I was doing you a favor. ?

That is higher egoic functioning. I can see the usefulness for it. ? But there's also lower ones such as fear, shame, guilt which keep people stuck in life and also brings alot of suffering. The usefulness of these are limited and by dissolving them the person can transcend into higher levels such as life purpose and love.