Water by the River
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26 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:Yes, but isn't god imaginary? the ultimate reality is unlimited absolute infinity, and that's what I am. God is secondary to infinity, it is creation, but creation of itself. it is will and intelligence that arise from the lack of limitation, but they are somehow the first apparent limitation, which creates all other apparent limitations that are the perceived reality.
the ultimate reality is prior to any creative will, that is, any will of establish apparent limits. it is limitless and that's it.
very nice. Thank you for this posting. If we continue like this, we will
reinventconfirm the Madyamaka-Doctrine here in the forum
. Or get our concept/pointers to "the" Absolute fully empty, and with that fully infinite, with no more overlays of any quality limiting IT. So that "it" can really be unlimited infinite Ultimate Reality. Or the True Oneself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka
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The nature of ultimate reality
Main article: Śūnyatā
According to Paul Williams, Nāgārjuna associates emptiness with the ultimate truth but his conception of emptiness is not some kind of Absolute, but rather it is the very absence of true existence with regards to the conventional reality of things and events in the world.[45] Because the ultimate is itself empty, it is also explained as a "transcendence of deception" and hence is a kind of apophatic truth which experiences the lack of substance.[3]Because the nature of ultimate reality is said to be empty, empty even of "emptiness" itself, both the concept of "emptiness" and the very framework of the two truths are also mere conventional realities, not part of the ultimate. This is often called "the emptiness of emptiness" and refers to the fact that even though madhyamikas speak of emptiness as the ultimate unconditioned nature of things, this emptiness is itself empty of any real existence.[46]
The two truths themselves are therefore just a practical tool used to teach others, but do not exist within the actual meditative equipoise that realizes the ultimate.[47] As Candrakirti says: "the noble ones who have accomplished what is to be accomplished do not see anything that is delusive or not delusive".[48] From within the experience of the enlightened ones there is only one reality which appears non-conceptually, as Nāgārjuna says in the Sixty stanzas on reasoning: "that nirvana is the sole reality, is what the Victors have declared."[49] Bhāvaviveka's Madhyamakahrdayakārikā describes the ultimate truth through a negation of all four possibilities of the catuskoti:[50]
Its character is neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither. / Centrists should know true reality / That is free from these four possibilities.
Atisha describes the ultimate as "here, there is no seeing and no seer, no beginning and no end, just peace.... It is nonconceptual and nonreferential ... it is inexpressible, unobservable, unchanging, and unconditioned."[51] Because of the non-conceptual nature of the ultimate, according to Brunnholzl, the two truths are ultimately inexpressible as either "one" or "different".[52]
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or, in other words, truly Infinite and limitless.
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53 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:I'd say that nothing is imaginary. the ultimate reality is the absence of limits, and nothingness is limitation, since it excludes something. non-limitation is the infinite absolute, and I am that.
Yes, understand & agree.
" the absence of limitation is absolute life, absolute freedom, absolute love, because it includes everything . whoever realizes the absolute is the only one that exists, but his infinity excludes any solitude. there is no other, but as in a game of mirrors, there are infinite perspectives. you cannot understand it in a linear or superficial way". That is beautiful. And the "one" who realizes the Absolute is gone... replaced by the Infinite Totality that was always already the case. The previous separate self is seen through/transcended/emptied out/dead. A functional character remaining, but the separate self gone. Because how could IT be the Infinite Totality when "anything" separate or individual/individuality still arise&moves in it.... That is why some say no one realizes the Absolute, and that there can not be an enlightened person.
I use Nothingness in the definition of Andrew Halaw, to contrast it with Nothing. Nothing has a opposite: Something. Nothingness is neither existence nor non-existence. Madhyamaka-style. Neither existing nor non-existing, nor both, nor neither. Infinite.
Infinite Consciousness, or the One without a second. But that already says too much "positive" about "It".
Andrew Halaw in "God is Nothingness":
"This book is about Nothingness, the great Void of the holy sages, not to be confused with the nothing of the ordinary person.
Silence. A blank page or space in a book. A shout. Slapping the table or thumping the floor. These are all expressions of the ineffable truth that is theuniversal nature of reality. Since there is no way to directly capture the highest truth with language, all we can do is point to it.
And “Nothingness” is the best verbal pointer that I have found."
In the beginning, there was only Nothing.
Now there is only Nothing.
In the end, there will be only Nothing.
There always was, is,
and only ever will be
Nothing.
God is Nothingness
Christ is Nothingness
Buddha is Nothingness
The Tao is Nothingness
Brahman is Nothingness
The Absolute is Nothingness
Nothingness is neither something nor the common nothing;
it is the Great Nothing, the eternal, magnificent, all-encompassing
Nothingness that transcends being,
yet is the ground from which existence itself arises.
In truth, there is only Nothingness,
for nothing else ever was.
Beings suffer because they do
not understand Nothing.
Intoxicated by their senses and minds,
they chase mirages,
construct temples,
conduct empty rituals,
pursue wealth and status,
believing that there is something
—meaning, purpose, salvation—
to attain.
Fools are slaves to their senses and thoughts,
caught in the snare of form and desire,
unaware that all things
arise from Nothingness,
abide as Nothingness,
and return to Nothingness.
For nothing has ever happened.
Existence and appearance are flashes of Nothingness
superimposed upon Nothingness.
There are no beings, no worlds,
no minds, no consciousness,
no souls, no events, no time,
no space, no Buddha, no Christ,
no Self, no God.
There is only the not-‘that’ That—
the Great, Magnificent Void,
the womb of all existence.
NOTHINGNESS.
Bound by neither space nor time,
Nothingness is dimension-less,
time-less, and form-less.
The Void is unborn, unoriginated, unconditioned, and deathless,
neither coming nor going, ‘creating’ nor destroying, rewarding nor punishing.
It has never set anything in motion nor caused anything to happen.
Ultimately, there is only Nothing,
which is the final and only truth.
Nothingness cannot be seen with eyes,
nor heard with ears,
tasted with the tongue,
smelt with the nose,
felt by the body,
or known by the mind.
Do not look for it with your senses or mind,
for the Void is beyond color, sound,
smell, taste, touch, form, and
thought.
Transcend them and realize that you are truly
Nothing, that in reality
there is only Nothing.
Then you are free to dance and play
on the waves of Nothingness."
and
"
Nothingness is not sheer blankness, yet neither is it being-ness the way that we ordinarily understand existence; it is the source and true nature of all beings. This is the “vast emptiness, nothing holy” of Bodhidharma, the legendary founder of Ch’an, Sǒn, and Zen Buddhism.
Consciousness is neither present nor absent in Nothingness, for Nothingness is actually the root of consciousness. In truth, there is no such thing as consciousness; there is only Nothingness.
Consciousness is instantiated Nothingness, as is all of existence.
Frightened dullards, clinging to notions of existence, call Nothingness “nihilism,” unaware that Nothing is the exact opposite of deathly sterility; Non-being is the great womb from which everything arises, abides, and eventually returns. From a Buddhist perspective, “Emptiness is not a negative idea, nor does it mean mere privation, but as it is not in the realm of names and forms, it is called emptiness, or nothingness, or the Void” (Suzuki 60).
Sunyata, as Nothingness can be called in Buddhism, or Tao in Taoism, sustains everything, including consciousness. It is the vast, empty void of Non-existence that the Buddha calls Nirvana, meaning “extinction” of all ‘being.’ It is what Nisargadatta Maharaj points to when he speaks of ‘Universal Consciousness’ or what Huang Po calls ‘Mind.’
Nothingness is prior to consciousness, as it is is with all phenomena. This is why Huang Po says, “Mind in itself is not mind” (Blofeld 34), meaning that the mind is truly understood only when its own emptiness is realized. For mind is Nothingness occurring as consciousness. When this is properly realized, mind become Mind with a capital “M,” not in the sense that some latent quality has been discovered that it is somehow beyond all conditioning, like some eternal super Consciousness or Witness at the base of our mind; but in the sense that when we realize our own universality as Nothingness, we awaken to our own unlimited nature. This is what sages mean when they talk about “primordial consciousness”; it is the realization that our minds transcend beingness alone, by extending into the core nor Non-being, into Nothingness itself. The mind, in effect, is simultaneously limitless (transcendent) and viscerally present (immanent). Hence, Nisargadatta calls it “Universal Consciousness” to express the insight into the universal Nothingness of our minds.Nothingness creates, supports, animates, and eventually recalls everything, yet is not bound to any single thing. It is the stars, but not limited to them. It is the earth and all of its inhabitants, but is not confined to them.
Nothingness is the true nature of all existence. The Buddha, the Awakened One, is also called Tathata, meaning, “One who has arrived at suchness,”
suchness being another term for the ineffable, mysterious reality of Nonbeing, sunyata, or Nothingness.
We have risen from Nothingness, and to Nothingness we shall return. Therefore, ultimately there is no movement or nothing that ever happens, for everything is in fact Nothingness. “That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete” (37). And yet the world continues to change and transform; the seasons come and go; people are born, grow old and die.
Nothing changes and yet everything happens.
Divinity expresses itself as an acorn, a mustard seed, a lump of coal. Humans, including their toils and vices, are all manifestations of the wondrous Nothingness. “Nothing[ness] is the inexhaustible, suprasensible power underlying all finite beings,” “the emptiness from which all beings are forged” (Chen 90, 92).
Nothingness sings as birds, sighs as the wind, breathes as humans, and knows as mind. Once this is realized, there is nothing to worry about, for everything is an expression of Nothing. As the seminal Buddhist scripture, the Heart Sutra, says, “Form is Emptiness; Emptiness is Form.”
Your truest nature is Nothingness. Mind and consciousness are in fact Nothingness. This is why Ch’an Master Linji called the Enlightened being a “person of no rank,” someone who can come and go freely. “No rank” means no fixed limitation, free and vast as the sky, bound by neither ‘being’ nor even Non-being.
This is the infinite Nothingness of the sages."
and, maybe most important, Appendex I: Nothingness (Infinite Consciousness) has the potential for sentience/awareness, to have awareness arise if an "object"-arising happens. Or perceptions perceiving themselves, with our without separate-self arisings. So it is not Nothing, like in nothing at all. But infinite potential + potential for sentience of "that". See also Benthinos Water-Pistol emerging/manifested in an infinite empty vastness.
"
Appendix I
Some readers may be wondering why I say that awareness is not the Absolute, despite the fact that so many ancient scriptures and eminent teachers say that they are identical. For instance, Nisargadatta taught that consciousness is rooted in (and therefore limited to) the physical human form, while awareness transcended the individual body and was actually the Absolute—that everything is Universal Consciousness.This is more of an instructive approach than a philosophical commitment. If pressed as to whether the Absolute is awareness or not, I would say, like Huang Po did, that, “Mind is not mind, yet neither is it no-mind.”
In Nothingness, there is some degree of awareness present—it is not how most people imagine brain death—albeit unconditioned, object- and subjectless. The Consciousness (for lack of a better word) of Non-being is so subtle that the moment we try to reflect upon it to check if we are conscious, we are jarred back into ‘being’ and into our ordinary dualistic consciousness. I hesitate even to call this experience “pure subjectivity,” for that invites a metaphysical position that I am not willing to support.
In the end, to paraphrase Socrates, all that I know is Nothing.
This Consciousness has shed all of the characteristics that people normally identify with awareness, such as perspective, spatial and temporal contexts, objects, ownership, etc. Yet, if there were no awareness, then it would be impossible to differentiate the numinous Nothingness from how people conventionally conceive of blankness or being comatose.
Personally, I think that differentiating between Nothingness and consciousness is helpful, and that is my ultimate goal—to help people realize Non-being or Absolute Consciousness. At that point, I can care less whether people call it Nothingness, God, Brahman, Buddha Nature, One Mind, Universal Consciousness, or a kangaroo.
Names at that point, after the Absolute has been realized, are insignificant."
Since this is the first thread I started myself, I allow myself the liberty to blow it up with a waaaay to long ramling like the one above. Hope nobody minds...
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17 hours ago, WeCome1 said:... and your formatting
thank you
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25 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:To all of those that say that consciousness or their feeling of awareness or 'iamness' exists behind their eyes...I´m just asking you...observe.
Observe the sounds that are happening. It might be a car down the street, the neighbour speaking to somebody, furniture being moved, a bird chirping...whatever.
ACTUALLY LOOK WHAT IS THAT. See what is a sound. A sound is...consciousness!
Notice that sounds ( consciousness ) are NOT happening within your 'body' but rather is happening in the whole "surrounding" field....
Try to see it. Try to see that sounds/consciousness are happening 'all over the place'. And notice that the sound/consciousness it's literally happening in that 'place', not inside your brain.
You are not having an experience of sounds, Experience is having you (including your body).
You are NOT your body having an experience! You are Experience holding the body, somewhere in the field.
And you are holding all bodies too, you solipsistic asshole. ?
Very good. Please excuse the addition of my further musings below...
Perceptions perceiving themselves. And no "You" or Consciousness or Consciousness "of" anything/anyone anywhere to be found...
"You are Experience holding the body, somewhere in the field."
And the next step can be to see that there is no "You" in "You" are Experience". Just experience arising in Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence. Impersonal. Empty. A brooding silent Abyss of pure Nothingness/Consciousness. Infinite Silence, never to be seen as object. Yet, always here. Not No-thing, but never anything perceiveable. Yet all appearances arising in "it". Not existing, nor non-existing.
Experiencing itself, as itself, being itself, infinite. One without a second. Nondual. "Time,Past and future" and "outside of IT" being just ideas/concepts arising in it. (the idea/concept of Solipsism by the way also).
The only Infinite Reality (One without a second) in which any arising/concept can appear at all...
"You are Experience holding the body, somewhere in the field." is already a "you" too much.
But that is probably what you meant anyway, and "I" am adding redundant musings...
> And you are holding all bodies too, you solipsistic asshole. ?
. And your body-mind is being held in the perspectives of "others" when these perspectives are perceiving your bodymind, and in their perspective are only the illusions arisings of "their" separate-selfes (I-thoughts, I-feelings) arising. In Infinite Nothingness.
All appearance being held in Indras Net of Infinite Perspectives. Nothingness perceiving its own arisings. Arisings with the same essence of Nothingness. And there can be nothing besides "this" Infinite Nothingness, Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness. Because anything "else" would appear in it, any boundary (which would be necessary for "anything" else) would appear within it.
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1 hour ago, Razard86 said:"To sleep= Denial of Truth
To awaken= Acceptance of Truth
If you have not fully awakened its because you refuse to accept what you are."
"Only a few can accept the truth and I really cannot even understand why"
To awaken is definitely not just the "acceptance of Truth" (a concept), as you literally write in the quote above.
Awakening is a change in state, for example the visual field getting nondual and infinite, and the "externalness" and "solidity" is replaced with unity and mere appearance.
- Along with this unmistakenable state-change there is a change in brainwaves, for example more gamma-activity.
- And its a change in self-identity, towards the "subject" becoming more empty/nothing/transcending.
- If one changes these states (for example nondual) often and long enough, these states tend to get permanent (transformation), supported by a more empty self-identity, until at one point one is both Nothing/Nothingness, and everything, the infinite nondual field.
But what Awakening definitely not is: Just a change in the way of thinking, just a change in the way which concepts are used, and promoting these concepts (for example Solipsism) in an agressive way, and declaring awakening is just believing/accepting these concepts/ an "acceptance" of truth.
- That is what you are doing, and selling/promoting. Or where is your call to actually do the work, practice and meditate, and really transcend the separate self? Not just a call for different thinking and concepts (Solipsism,...), but an actual practice to induce these awakened states?
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Most of what I see you doing is promoting certain conceptual concepts/ideas/worldviews (mainly circling solipsictic concepts/worldviews), and harshly attacking anybody who has different concepts/worldviews.
- How is that different from what all other "nonspiritual" people are doing anyways? Defending their conceptual world-views, and attacking anybody who thinks differently in more or less open or subtle way, because its a threat to their own ego?
A change in thinking/concepts is easy, everybody can do it. But if one doesn't have the corresponding awakened nondual states on which these changes of identity are based on, one is just doing wishful conceptual thinking. Replacing one ego/worldview with another, a horizontal move, not a vertical transformation of transcending the separate self.
And that transcending is way harder than to just change ones thinking/separate-self/ego-concept. It means to sit down and practice for a long time (in whatever way, for example meditation) to actually induce these states of awakening. And these states then transform ones identity on a deep level.
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Of course Peter Ralston is enlightened. It is clear as daylight when you read his books.
Water by the River
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1 hour ago, SeaMonster said:So there simply are going to be quite a few trainwrecks on that path.
Yes. As with most stuff, a significant part humanity tends to learn only with suffering, not with insight.
But lets try to minimize the trainwrecks...
- some will understand and avoid dangers in any case (mixture of intuition, intelligence and Karma/tendencies).
- some will never get it (future trainwrecks).
- and a large area in between. These are open for influence from outside, in both ways...
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1 hour ago, SeaMonster said:You can only "accept" solipsism if you have strong narcissistic tendencies in the first place.
Agree to your post. But on the quote I am not sure.
The path to Enlightenment (by definition) is full of traps and cul-de-sacs/dead ends. Else, everybody starting it would end up enlightened. The whole Lila is structured to keep the show going, and the separate self illusion well and alive. That is not because God is evil, but to get a good show going with characters, the characters better have to believe the show is real...
So, on the potential "fast-lane" psychedelic path, what to build in as hard to spot cul-de-sac? Of course a seductive kiss from Maya, when she whispers in ones ear how awesome, unique and infinite and God-like "one" is. It is just a trap, but a veeeery seductive one, especially in certain states.
But no better Karma than having as little Narcicissm as possible. Yet, I hypothesize that for certain tasks/paths/innovations, pioneers that tend more towards the narcissistic end of the spectrum are plain and simple necessary. Because its always way easier to stay in the pack, than to be a pioneer... Takes a lot of self-confidence and being convinced of oneself to go where not many have been before.
There is a very inspiring section in Kapleaus Three Pillars of Zen that stayed in my memory: Written by Harada-Roshi on the Enlightenment Yaeko, wo got Full Enlightenment a few days before dying from sickness. She went very fast through the initial symptoms of her Great/Full Enlightenment, getting very fast over her astonishment and "Enlightenment-High", because of being "one as gentle as she". Harada said that his own "Enlightenment-sickness" lasted almost 10 years.
"An ancient Zen saying has it that to become attached to one’s own enlightenment is as much a sickness as to exhibit a maddeningly active ego. Indeed, the profounder the enlightenment, the worse the illness. In her case I think it would have taken two or three months for the most obvious symptoms to disappear, two or three years for the less obvious, and seven or eight for the most insidious. Such symptoms are less pronounced in one as gentle as she, but in some they are positively nauseating. Those who practice Zen must guard against them. My own sickness lasted almost ten years. Ha!"
And the same of course also holds true before Enlightenment. Self-Importance is seen like a spiritual disease in Tibetan Buddhism, only holding one back, glued to suffering and Samsara. Because self-importance is just not correct, its an illusion. If ones True Being is the whole infinite thing, how could one separate thing/separate self be more important, more "anything", than another part?
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1 minute ago, SeaMonster said:But that's not even right. The fool doesn't understand himself, doesn't know himself. One's insights can be independent of self-knowledge. You can be the smartest, wisest person in the world on an abstract level and not having it mean anything personally. And an idiot can know himself well, be a holy fool type.
Sure, agree.
But I tried to stay close to Leos fool-analogy. And everbody, even the non-wise, think they act&think the most wisest&smartest way possible. Else, by definition, they would think differently.
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1 minute ago, Yimpa said:Definitely a feature; not a bug.
Yes, definitely a feature. To get the show going, one needs the separate-self, the seductress Maya fooling most mindstreams into her illusion-game, using mainly narcissm/self-importance as a motivation-carrot. Maslow stage 4.
But then, one also need a pull towards transcendence, evolution, growing complexity of the Kosmos. Like in atoms->molecules->bateria->plants->animals->humans-> awakened beings.
And that pull is both suffering, but also especially wisdom&inspiration to grow.
And as Leo eloquently said: The fool doesn't know or understand its foolishness. The fool thinks of his insights as wisdom, and all others and even wise ones as fools. Couldn't be different.
Take away any feature of the game, and there wouldn't have been a functioning game/Lila/Evolution/Survival.
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3 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:It seems only those who trip come to this solipsism thing. Never heard of it like this way from any great masters
Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is what you end with when you have understood a lot about the manifestated side of Reality/Consciousness (infinite mere appearance hovering nondual in Nothingness), which you can (more or less easily) access via psychedelics. But one oneself is not normally fully Empty/Impersonal Consciousness then. Not full Impersonal Nothingness. Of course one then has to project the remnants of the Inviduality/feelings of being OF something on reality (I am God, sovereign, all of it, all of this God/Buddhafield/Universe/Dimension). Because, as per my last post, the separate self can't fully imagine not being there anymore. If it could, it would be gone right away/enlightened/wake up.
Traditional Great Masters had to "generate" this Nonduality/Unity states (infinite mere appearance hovering nondual in Nothingness) via getting empty/impersonal/transcending the separate self. Believe me, that takes a looong time of getting pretty empty/transcending the separate self arisings as an optional show within oneself. So they understand the impersonal empty aspect of Nothingness/Consciousness BEFORE they understand the manifested side (nondual, infinite, mere appearance hovering in Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness, because these states they only get when being fully empty and impersonal themselves. Pure Consciousness/Reality, nothing specific, no separate self left.
Its some kind of "build-in-quality-control" of the classical meditation paths (Neti Neti): You only get to see the Infinite/mere appearance/nondual Nothingness-aspect of the manifestations of the visual field (any kind of field) when being fully empty/Nothingness.
So what should one get to see in theory (and apparently in practice also) if one ends up after "seeing" the infinite manifestation of Infinite Consciousness/God while not fully being nothing/Nothingness/God-proper?
- Solipsism (1) (or the separate self remnants realizing its identity with THIS universe/Buddha-Field/all of it). And that is "true" in so far that there are psychedelic experiences that very much feel like that. But a partial truth, there is more to go, higher truths... Full Enlightenment/Deep Identity Change to full empty Nothingness.
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and pushing even further, see Video "Infinity of Gods (2)", OTHER Gods/Buddhafields. Or Infinity of Gods. Thats the utmost peak of that cul-de-sac, because: Oh no, there are OTHERS like "oneself". And an Infinity of them. An Infinity of Gods. Problem: Very Nondual and infinite and Oneness and being Ultimate Reality/Absolute indeed....
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So, a (2) continuation of another partial truth (1). Not the end of the story, but something that can happen, depending on the path up the mountain. A direct experience, that needs to be unpacked and interpreted.
- And the final truth is: Full Enlightenment/Deep Identity Change to full empty Nothingness. No other. One without a second. And: Nothing further. The understanding that one fooled oneself in ingenious ways (like, the whole show, a rabbit hole infinitely deep...) , and the complexity how one fools oneself, comes included with Enlightenment (by definition). Its all appearance within oneself, all illusion.
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So, a (2) continuation of another partial truth (1). Not the end of the story, but something that can happen, depending on the path up the mountain. A direct experience, that needs to be unpacked and interpreted.
What would be necessary now,at (1) or (2), would be to fully die/transcend ones separate self-arisings, becoming fully impersonal and nothing/empty, realizing ones Deep Identity with Nothingness/Absolute Reality. And then one throws out (better: transcends, or spots fast enough while it arises in oneself and just cuts it off, automated-style) each and every subtle concept/feeling of oneself and of the Absolute/Reality, for the Absolute CONTAINS them all, but is NONE of them. The Absolute/Nothingness can only be described in negative language, of what it is not. In-finite. Not finite. Not measurable, not defineable. Reality itself. But for that, one needs normally a lot of time in these empty and impersonal states (if ones name is not Ramana, one probably does).
So how much 5 MeO can a human take, and how empty of any form of separate self are these states really? The tried and true technique is and ever has been meditation, or transcending/dying of each and every arising of the separate-self (transcending, or spotting fast enough while it arises in oneself and just cuts it off, automated-style), delivering as much time in these empty impersonal states, the Portals of the Absolute, see one of my last posts, as necessary.
By the way, I am in no way against psychedelics. Psychedelics plus meditation. So psychedelics alone remains a dangerous path with potential for ego/separate self-inflation, instead of full ego/separate-self transcedence/death, until spiritual culture fully gets to grips with these quite new phenomena of highly efficient psychedelics like 5 MeO and so on.
But the psychedelic path is here, and it won't go away. We will see its challenges, disfunctions and trainwrecks, its sweetness for the ego to hijack it for narcicissm/solipsism/hybris and ego inflation, being explored first time in scale in broad daylight here in this forum. Probably until the end of our days. But also the vast potential of this path. Let's see if the dark side or the light side of the force prevails. I don't know, let's see. Probably a mix of both.
In the longterm, the light side of the force prevails as always, simply because the Kosmos wants to grow in evolution/complexity/awakening to itself, but until then if history shows anything any misuse and f***up possible will be fully expored and savored by humanity. Until it finally gets it right. So: Show must go on.
And I am waiting and looking forward very much for the first ever fully empty/impersonal/fully enlightened Alienmind walking here on earth on two legs, thinking and understanding the Kosmos/Reality in non-linear ways like never seen before in simple non-psychedelic-boosted human mind-streams.
The content and aspects of that post is more elaborated in my previous posts.
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15 minutes ago, Razard86 said:You is a concept, are is a concept, Being is a concept. All language is conceptualization. So no..YOU stop that. You literally cannot communicate without concepts. Concepts= Meaning.
Razard, your writing/post above is also only concepts.
You disagree with the concepts of others, using concepts yourself. Your logic (or any kind of logic) is also based on your concepts.
You are doing something called Performative Contradiction all the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction
But you attack only concepts you don't like, not your own. And you do that because you apparently LIKE doing that. Because it boosts your worldview (aka Ego), mainly selling the concept of Solipsism. And why do you like that concept of Solipsism? Because you can run a huge show with it. A leave it to the readers to decide what kind of show that is....
All concepts are only relative, none of them are Absolute Truth. Mine and yours! They all only arise in Absolute Truth/Reality.
The quality of concepts as pointers/path is determined only by where they lead (their relative truth): To realizing the Absolute beyond concepts, or Enlightement or ones True Self, or not. Or more into the claws of the separate self-contraction and its narcicissm and grandiosity, which only leads to more suffering.
And since this True Self if fully empty and impersonal, you can not pass the Gateless Gate when you are not fully empty. And Solipsism and the concepts you propagate do not empty oneself, Neti Neti. They rather tend to boost ones separate self with narcicissm and self-grandiosity.
Your path of killing any concept you don't like "with its all concept" is contradictory, leading to you yourself being contradictoy. Which is just another word for suffering.
All the best
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What I would find really cool for this place is a communication style that is
- values each other
- is nice
- is respectful
- just how one would envision how nice, grown up and well-meaning communications would look like.
- expresses that the "other" is and can not be different from oneself (or Namaste).
- acknowledges the True Core of every sentient being, its Buddha-Nature. Impersonal Divinity itself.
Or in one word: cool.
"The word that I want to offer to you in your search for integrity is simply “Uncool.” “Is this cool or uncool?” - Diane Musho Hamilton
Diane Musho Hamilton has written the article included below, concerning Genpo Roshi and concerning of his less than ethical behaviour running his Sangha. Of course concerning issues of sexual misconduct, a topic of orders of magnitude more serious than just communication style in an Internet Forum.
But the concept “Is this cool or uncool?” can and should be used in the opinion of yours truly in spiritual circles, and pretty much everywhere else also, concerning pretty much every way of expression.
Why? Clean Up, Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up. - Ken Wilber
Or: “Is this cool or uncool?”
Instant-Karma: Post something negative, attack someone, feel annoyed by an opinion/perspective, be sarcastic, ironic, criticize someone because ones ego/concepts have been hit in an emotionally negative way, or just communicate sloppy: Ones mindstream instantly becomes less than loving and open. At least the mindstream of yours truly does, that is why yours truly tries to avoid that.
Water by the River
"Diane Musho Hamilton - Simply Uncool
. . . . The heated complaints elicit an outcry of responses calling for the development of standards, guidelines, sound and consistent ethical policies which can provide oversight and accountability to the teachers in the Zen world. This is so that teachers and students everywhere are held accountable to the impacts that their decisions and behavior have on the communities in which they practice.
* * * * *
These guidelines, written policies, and legal contracts provide the basis for durable structures that can outlast the unruly behaviors and destructive tendencies of the humans who inevitably pass through them. And who among us hasn’t contributed to some mayhem among our friends?
Formulating these policies is natural, necessary, and even admirable, when you realize that we are capable of holding each other to higher standards of conduct.
* * * * *
In the meantime, however, while we are learning and while these policies are developed and implemented, I would like to introduce a handy word that may help guide you in your decisions until the ground rules are put on paper. The word that I want to offer to you in your search for integrity is simply “Uncool.”
“Is this cool or uncool?”
* * * * *
Sleeping around. Students bring a tremendous amount of vulnerability to the spiritual search, it gets very confusing and harmful when the student’s spiritual aspiration and their un-clarified sexual desire is mixed with the erotic impulses of the person in power. If you are a teacher and want a relationship with a student, change the agreement, acknowledge your position, and cultivate one with some consciousness and integrity. It doesn’t even have to be long-term. But habitually sleeping around with the people who are studying with you? Uncool."PS: And while we are at it, Solipsism and the behaviour and emotional "radiation" of its aficionados: “Is this cool or uncool?”. And "do you want to become like that a few years following down that road"?
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3 minutes ago, Yimpa said:Nah, you sound confused, but God wouldn’t have it any other way.
Dear Yimpa,
how about Logical Reasoning when asked for why you made certain claims/statements or smileys?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning
I think its cooler and nicer if somebody asks you what you mean with a smiley-reply to answer in an understandable way. And more respectful of that person, JellyDogShoe_1Mil in this case.
But I know, " God wouldn’t have it any other way. "
Selling Water by the River
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40 minutes ago, JellyDogShoe_1Mil said:All this talk on solipsism is mental masturbation, c'mon.
Whether it is valid or not does not change a thing. The show goes on.
Really, solipsism is just another concept.
You are. Being is. Stop there. You cannot possibly deny your own existence. Apparent "others" are that too. It does not change shit. Your apparent body still interacts with apparent others, pays apparent bills and still eats apparent food. Give it up.
Exactly. Solipsism is another concept, like any(!) other. Including the more useful pointers, that actually lead to their referent. Like Neti Neti for example...
In what arises that concept of Solipsism? That is the Koan that, if followed to its very end can solve all this confusion that the concept of Solisism brings with it.
But Solipsism as a pointer, as an injunction, an actual practice, doesn't lead to the Absolute. It leads to Narcicissm if done from the level of the separate self well & alive. Just to more mental conceptual fantasies. Neti Neti and meditation does lead to the transcendence of the separate-self-illusion, finally revealing that in which all concepts arise, Absolute Reality, or Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness.
Selling Water by the River
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8 minutes ago, nhoktinvt said:jesus christ
too many letters at once?
Love the formatting? 
I know....
Please feel invited to eat/read as much as one likes at a buffet. And ignore the rest. Not that there is an "intellectual throw-up" or something of the like. Today, many many letters for the Aficionados...
Selling Water by the River
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Further Quotes Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute.,
"As an Aside: When asked at many workshops, “How do you know if you are in an Identity?” I always answered, “If you feel special or different from another you are in an Identity.”
And that is why Narcicissm prevents Enlightenment.
- Narcicissm = feeling special or grandiose.
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And Solipsism tends to boost Narcicissm.
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"hey, its all me. How awesome"
- but stated not from the True Empty Impersonal Infinite True Self (that doesn't state anything, because its 100% empty impersonal Nothingness, but contains all arising statements, so such a statement is pretty pointless), but
- from the false Illusion separate self.
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"hey, its all me. How awesome"
Selling Water by the River
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Some Quotes from Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute.
Below are some quite poetic pointers on how the last separate-self-identities or arisings (very subtle ones at that stage, which is very close before crossing over to Enlightenment) appear and get transcended. They are already very empty and quite impersonal (of personal stuff/Ego), and can and normally are already nondual, or unitive states.
Wolinski calls them Portals to the Absolute,
- because it is in these Portals/states/last separate self identities where the "ripening" of Awakened Awareness (= technical Mahamudra term, standing for totally Empty Impersonal Nondual Boundless Timeless Consciousness) happens,
- which still has some layers/arisings at that ripening stage of some very subtle "Individuality" preventing full Enlightenment, or crossing over,
- until finally transcending even these last illusion layers, and then sudden crossing over to waking up /Enlightenment happens.
One can not "push" through them with willforce, or artificial activity. Because that would generate more subtle separate-self arisings (will/trying to do/pushing something IS a separate-self arising, is artifical activity). But with something like Nonmeditation-Yoga of the Mahamudrasystem, one just rests in Pure Empty Impersonal Boundless Nondual Consciousness (or nondual unitive state Reality at that point in time), and lets these last veils evaporate.
What is very helpful (at least for me) is the understanding (or a map) what these very subtle last separate self identities/veils are and how they work, because they are very hard to spot.
No-Self is not automatically True No-Self, or Nothingness.
And if one confuses
- the final Impersonal Empty No-Self of Enlightenment
- with some No-Self/Portal still loaded with subtle separate-self-identies,
one does not cross over to Enlightenment, or finding the Real Empty Impersonal Infinite No-Self of Absolute Consciousness/Nothingness, the essence of all appearance. Ones True Deep Identity of the Universal Mind, the One without a second , Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or: Nothingness.
And now Stephen Wolinski (The formating is like this, because it is like this in the book, and increases its readability):
"THE NO-SELF SELF I-DENTITY
The appearance of
the perceiver,
aware-er,
knower
observer,
witness
no-self self,
the position-less position
the no-point point of view
the non-being being etc.These subtle Identities often times remain unnoticed because they appear in such a pleasant form such as:
Silence, a peaceful space
The space between two thoughts
The gap without thoughts memory emotions associations etc."and
"Often times, the Appearance of a Portal
which is a State
requiring a Knower
is a Phenomenological Appearance.
Any Portal can mistakenly be confused as being the Absolute.
All portals and spiritual paths are appearances
and
are experiences requiring an experience-er…
Portals are appearances that are labels which carry with them an associational
network of thoughts, memories, emotions, associations etc.
Portals Appear to Appear in the Dream-Illusion. [that is, they appear in Infinite Reality as arising/appearance, temporarily. Portals/states like the appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower, observer, witness, no-self self,]
Eventually, the appearance of Portals
as well as the appearance on which the portal appears
which could be called or named
the No-self-self Identity,
the No-Position Position,
The No Point-Point of View,
the Vortex appearing on the Ocean of Existence
The Witness
The Being(ness)
All Evaporates…
Prior to all appearances
Prior to the Absolute…
Prior to I Am THAT
The Nameless Absolute…that which is prior to and without consciousness,
awareness, knowingness, being-ness, form or emptiness""Please note that the stillness etc. is a
by-product of the no-self self Identity
and that a no self-self Identity,
aka a position-less position
aka or a no-point point of view
are all part of the appearance.
In this way the appearance and the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness,
observer or a no-self self identity position-less position or a no-point point of
view
etc. is part of the appearance.
In other words, they arise and subside together.
Moreover the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or no-self self
identity etc. is part of and fixated and fascinated on the something-nothing or
appearance disappearance game (to be discussed later)....
Realizing this leads to the appreciation you can deconstruct appearances ad
nauseum and still end up continuing to deconstruct appearances. In other
words there is no way out of the loop, without the evaporation of the
perceiver, know-er, aware-er aka no-self-self identity etc. which is
experienced as stillness, peacefulness, presence or I am etc....
Finally, feeling like a separate self or feeling a “non-dual” self or feeling are
both states. There is the dual identity and a non-dual identity. the dual
identity and a non-dual identity are states and are perceiver, knower awarer
dependent, and are appearances ... [appearing in Reality/Absolute]"
"It is the appearance that appears to appear as a witness or a know-er or an
aware-er etc. which is part of the illusion.
All of the appearances of the witness, knower, aware-er, perceive-er observer
etc.) are appearances, temporary illusory-mirage like appearances which
contains the illusion of stability, solid(ness) and permanency.
This illusion functions to stabilize the illusory dream of existence, isness,
and/or beingness."Selling Water by the River
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8 minutes ago, Moksha said:Solipsism is the limited idea of seamlessness as realized from an apparent perspective. It doesn't acknowledge that there are infinite apparent perspectives, all as unreal as this perspective, with infinite degrees of absolute realization within the dream.
So true. Infinite apparent perspectives, all as unreal as this perspective
Water by the River
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1 minute ago, Bazooka Jesus said:HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You're so deluded!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just sayin'.
Really had to laugh.
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44 minutes ago, Razard86 said:Now with that said... I also made a thread saying I endeavor to be more calm (See my Contradiction: I Just Discovered My Delusion)....and let's just say I am failing miserably on that front!!! LOL. Why? Because for some reason I am finding this aggressive responses fun!!
Nice. Lets see if the resolution concerning staying calm works. Good luck!
>Why? Because for some reason I am finding this aggressive responses fun!!
Who would have thought...
Ever thought about who/what finds aggresive responses fun?
all the best
Selling Water by the River
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A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ).
https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/
True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics).
True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment.
"There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche
True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it.
The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above.
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Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining.
- "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above.
When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip.
Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self:
- not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute)
- but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left.
The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of
- identity, center, localization,
- any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything
is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity.
And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured.
And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness.
The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous.
And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please
Selling Water by the River
PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand:
Then, at least, its very charming
. Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!
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Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining.
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7 minutes ago, Razard86 said:So that means you are a liar. A liar is a rapist. So you are a rapist.
....
So yes you are a rapist, all of humanity are rapists. You can deny it all you want but it doesn't stop it from being true. You rapist.
ok. Now please check the forum guide-lines.
quoting from there:
- #1 Rule: Don't Be A Jerk. Speak to people with respect. Be conscious and nice.
- Show a level of respect & humility. Demonstrate kindness, friendliness, and compassion towards fellow members.
- Verbal abuse
- Calling members names like: stupid, idiot, moron, asshole, retard, etc.
- If a user violates our guidelines and shows a disregard for the staff or the community, they run the risk of losing their account. We reserve the right to deactivate any account and to edit or remove any content without warning. These guidelines are subject to change at any time without notice.
Every reader of your post can make up his own mind wether you acted according to the forum guidelines, with some basic decency, and wether you have mental problems or not. And wether these problems are boostet or not by a certain Solipsism-Narcicissm-ideology that apparently you are very fond of....
I wish you a much needed Bon Voyage!
Water by the River
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11 minutes ago, Razard86 said:All force is RAPE, your problem is you make rape only a physical act. Fraud is rape, lying is rape, thievery is rape, murder is rape, what is rape? To use force to get what you want, while ignoring what the other wants!!! THAT IS WHAT RAPE IS, AND ALL OF YOU HERE ARE RAPISTS. Stop with the bullshit.
Sorry, but "all of" us here are not rapists.
But maybe some have something like a Messiah Complex, or something like that.
"However, the symptoms as a proposed disorder closely resemble those found in individuals with delusions of grandeur or with grandiose self-images that veer towards the delusional."
"In terms of the attitude wherein an individual sees themselves as having to save another or a group of poor people, there is the notion that the action inflates their own sense of importance and discounts the skills and abilities of the people they are helping to improve their own lives"
in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Posted · Edited by Water by the River
Neti-Neti (Vedantic) is a technique used to disidentfy any subject in ones mindstream. I am not this, I am not that. Making it from "being it/subject" to "seeing it/making it an object" moving within onself. Any I-thought and I-feeling can be watched as arisings/objects moving within Oneself.
Madhyamaka ("4 negations" above), the central tenet of Buddhist Philosophy since the Mahayana, basically says: The Absolute is truly Infinite. Or neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither.
And Buddhism does this Madhyamaka-thing pretty much ever since to avoid any funny idea/concept being put on the Absolute, like Consciousness, God, Love, whatever, n+1. Sure, God is so to say the first manifestation, and love is also the essence of it all. But its too easy to project that on the Absolute, and make it not fully empty or infinite. Which then prevents its full realization. To say the essence of everything is God or Love is fully ok, because that refers already to something manifested, something, something no longer infinite.
Emptiness/Shunyata wants to make sure that one doesn't identify anything positive with either ones True Self, nor the Absolute. Empty it out. Or make it fully infinite.
Of course, Emptiness again can be made to something "self-existing". Like a state of void/emptiness, or cessation, or Nirvikalpha Samadhi. Then, it is said one has to empty out emptiness: The void is also just a state, something self-existing. It all appears in the Infinite.
Emptiness as concept or theory has been used in Buddhism "to death", in many different, often incorrect usages.
A good meaning of emptiness/Shunyata is (in the opinion of yours truly, in the meaning of "a good meaning/concept brings one closer to realization, not away from it)
Now comes the funny part: Since the Absolute is also NOT Emptiness, the Hindus use the term Infinite Consciousness. Which is also correct, once its fully empty and impersonal. One can more easily project unncessary properties on Infinite Consciousness than on Emptiness/Shunyata. But Shunyata sounds like Nihilism, which also isn't IT.
Basically IT/Absolute
If you are so inclined to read a long post of yours truly, Nothingness is in my humble opinion the best pointer (a term coined by Andrew Halaw):
Sounds complicated and paradoxical, but after having passed certain awakening states, only these views makes sense (in that they are able to translate ones new awakening experiences in ways that make sense, or facilitate further growth/transcendence).
Then, its no more paradoxical at all. So, if you are so inclined get some nondual experiences, sobre or not, get pretty empty yourself, and see for yourself what you truly really are....
Selling Water by the River