Water by the River

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Posts posted by Water by the River

  1. Posted

    16 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

    Okey i think i see where that train of thought came from now. But i never heard anyone calling nirodha a temporary, passing thing. Calling it the absolute, unborn, uncreated, eternal, infinte makes much more sense.

     

    Yes, fully agree.

    And the Nothingness is always there (gold), even when the necklage (form) shows up. Made out of it.

     i just wanted to say that the perspective that the causal can also be considered a state when one wants to describe the temporaray experience of it is also valid.

    • On the concentrative paths, one normally experiences the Nothingness normally first as state, before one can "hold" the awareness of the Nothingness as the essence also of form/visual field in daily life (Nondual Realization). That is why early Buddhism put Nirvana on a pedestal. One can get "hung upon" Emptiness/Nothingness as state. Awareness "OF" Emptiness. Then one has to empty out emptiness.
    • Realizing broadly as movement (Buddhism) fully that Samsara is Nirvana, and emphasizing the Nondual nature of both, and formulating all of that into doctrine (Nagarjuna, Madyamaka) came later. Having Nirodha as state is easier (and can comes before) fully holding the Nondual Realization that essence of the necklace(form) is gold in daily life. But also that happens (realization with Nondual without Cessations before). Mahamudra and Dzogchen for example quite efficiently directly train the Nondual Awakening, and not giving Nirvana/Causal/Cessation states the importance it had in early Buddhism (and partially still has in Theravada).

    But if having the choice only between either/or (and not integrating both staetments into proper context to make the partial truths of each more encompassing)

    1. calling Niroda/Nothingness/Cessation just an temporary imagined state or

    2. calling Nothingness/Niroda the Absolute, "the" Infinite Always Already Here Reality, ones True Fully Empty (Nothingness) Impersonal Being of Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind,

    yours truly also would always chose the 2. perspective. Because its fully empty&impersonal Infinite Consciousness/ Suchness/ Nothingness. And that is what helps making it stable in daily life.

    Calling it just 1. (and downplaying 2.) can cause a lot of trouble. But if one goes down the Absolute Solipsism and "its all imagined" path probably tends to or even has to that move.

    But both perspectives contain (partial) truths. As is to be expected, because "at" the Absolute/Infinite level all dualities/language/descriptions/system just collapse. One throws them over board at the right time, not before. Until then, they are very useful.

    Selling Water by the River

  2. Posted

    8 hours ago, Yimpa said:

    Breaking News:

    Scientists Are Only 50 Years Away From Creating The World’s First Litmus Test For How AWAKE One Is

    Go to your local (and hopefully enlightened) Zen Master or any being one considers fully woken up/enlightened (because it takes one to know one), present him with your awakened state and/or Enlightenment & if you are so inclinded delivering also corresponding relative concepts (risking a smack), and you already get that today. Or 500 years ago. 

    The apparent problem is of course: If one is the only awake.... like in only one ever can be awake. But I guess these aficionados wouldn't go to a potentially smacking Zen Master. Anticipating probably the outcome or so. So that kind of problem is solved anyway. :)

    Selling Water by the River

  3. Posted

    9 hours ago, Vibes said:

    It's surely helping me. I'm so sorry if you don't recognize the fucking TRUTH in his posts. Because if you don't, it means you are so full of shit that you can't even admit it.

    You're too arrogant, you're too blind to see your judgment, you are too closed-minded.

    Sorry Vibes that my reply "hits/picks" you :$, but what remains of the shadow of an "yours truly" roaming around in Yours Truly [capital letters] has to write the following... You know, Karma and happy dreaming and the like.... :)

    The "love" of the new religion keeps on growing ("full of shit", "You are too arrogant", "Your are too blind to see your judgement"), with its new Evangelium of  conceptual "Absolute Solipsism" apparently keeping on spreading under its new or not so new acolytes. Sadly, these don't see its obvious 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contradiction

    "You're too arrogant, you're too blind to see your judgment, you are too closed-minded." + "you are so full of shit that you can't even admit it".

    Did I overlook any rational reasoning/argumentation in your post? Any compassionate trying of convincing & saving the poor souls being led astray on their path to non-"Absolute Solipsism"-Hell?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning

    Or was it intended to be more a compliment like: "Hey, you are the first one to be incorrect all the time, there is ZERO truth in your statement, not even a single partial truth. Congratulations!"?

    Anyways, choosing ones path to the mountain is quite important. Because Maya stands at many road-crossing, and sells the path down the valley as the instant and effort-optimized turbo-trip up to the peak.

    But hey, ladies and gentlemen, Maya is so marvelous that she even delivered a wonderful song on the topic/game. And if the seduction would be really done with STYLE& TASTE (as the song claims happens from time to time by the Master himself), who wouldn't mind the show. Probably only those being led into the valley, and only at the end of that road.... And some bystanders, that hopefully try to do their best on a relative level, pointing to the path down the valley and are asking "road to mountain-peak? sure?", while mainting one (or better two) of their feet on their absolute-side-of-the-street property....

    Luckily, burning heretics alive at the stake for failures in the strength of their believe in the new gospel of  conceptual "Absolute Solipsism", committing the heineous sin of heresy, got a bit out of fashion.... Humanity clearly develops.... :)

    Anyway, no harm intended, lots of love as always, and on an Absolute Level ItSAULGOODMAN always already, and Bon Voyage!

    Selling Water by the River

    PS: And again sorry Vibes hat I picked you out your post for my reply. Could have been any one of the other aficionados also. :)

  4. Posted

    3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

    @Water by the River :)

    What you wrote sounds good but i hope you're aware that it has nothing to do with my quote lol.

    Ah, yes, hm. True! :$

    You know, here in Germany in school if one misses the topic in an essay, its automatically "Thema verfehlt", missed the point, Grad 5 out of 6, 6 being the worst. F in the US. :D

    Basiscally "So by that logic calling nirodha samapatti a dream doesn't quite follow" I wanted to comment why some call contioned states like Nirodha Samapatti a dream (=state), a temporary, passing and empty state And some call it the Absolute.

    There is truth in both. Similiar in order to get the Absolute (Infinite free of any and all concepts), even Emptiness has to be emptied out. The "Awarer" of Emptiness/Infinity/anything has to be seen and transcended/cut off also to get to real Nonduality/Infinite.  Awareness of Being/Awareness of Emptiness/ Awareness (Understanding) OF the Absolute is also just an arising IN the Infinite. See also one my previous posts on the Portals to the Absolute, Wolinsky.

    That dual meaning of the Causal state as both state AND Absolute at leased confused Yours Truly for a looong time.

    But as you maybe have already noticed, I enjoy writing about these things here. So apparently yours truly tends to hijack some posts, and goes of wandering to wherever he wants....  Gotta watch that tendency a bit, or at least clarify the intention for where and why wanndering off ;)

    Selling Water by the River

     

  5. Posted

    9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    The correct answer would be: yes, the other has buddha nature, from a relative point of view. from an absolute point of view, the other merges with me and only me, the now, remains, encompassing everything. But sure the zen master would hit me with the stick anyway, the bastard

    Yes to all of it :).

    And as you write, the Zen Master will slap one anyway. Only exceptions: He apprehends the same enlightened impersonal(!) mindstream of empty impersonal Infinite Consciousness that he knows "himself" to be in his interior/perspective. And apprehend/see that he can in Real Life perfectly fine... Takes one to know one.

    Then, one could say something completely incorrect on the relative level: The Absolute is Raspberry (Ralston once did). And one would still pass... But if in doubt, the smack & go and meditate/transcend/integrate/grow-up more is probably always helpful, even when already having a nice piece of real-estate on the Absolute Side of the Street....

    Zen doesn't like basking in relative concepts. Probably the Zen Master would leave yours truly barely alive.... O.o;) 

    But hey, words and relative concepts are all we got here in the forum, and the voice of the "fully Absolute Side of the Street" is already doing very fine... Yours truly also dreams about fully retiring over there, and just sprouting out Koans like "frog pond plop" all day long and smile.... :D, but will stay & do the conceptual thing on the relative side of the street until time being.

    Selling Water by the River 

  6. Posted

    1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

    its kinda the same no?

    Unconditional bliss/Love is NOT an experience xD It's literally YOU

    Well, ......... yes!   :x:);)

    When resting IN that Nothingness/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Infinite Reality, the bliss/love starts to flow. So that bliss/love lives in the house of ones True Being.

    It is the fragrence of love/bliss that one searches in all(!) experiences, after the separate self contraction/ego has strangled this flow of love/bliss. It is the bliss/love of a home that one never really forgot, and actually never really left. Only apparently...

    Technically, the bliss/love belongs to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness, the necklace side of the gold. But since it flows as soon as the gold begins to reveal itself, it is just divine in its force (see one of my last post for Awe). It kills "separate you" softly or not so softly... And when the Nondual Realization opens up..... the Divine opens its flood-gates and delivers any love/bliss one ever sought and had, and infinitely more... It is like finding a million dollar in your pocket, and keep pulling out the money in disbelief, always thinking that has to be fake as everything that came before. I think that metaphor is from Adyashanti.

    Afterwards, one never mourns the loss of the separate self-illusion. One has lost nothing more than an Illusion, and gained the whole Kosmos. Infinite Freedom, since which/what could constrain ones freedom? Infinite Love, since one knows its source, and there is no other, never could be. One without a second.

    And if it is in ones nature, go fishing, grow beautiful flowers in your garden, raise a family, celebrate life.... And if one is inclined to do so, go develop new technologies, explore new fields, leave your mark, go chasing an Alien or two - if one is true Pioneer, discover Alien Dimensions and the wonderfully beautiful creation and mainting mechanism of this Universe/Dimension/Buddhafield and others...  But this time from the fullness of ones True Being, with overflowing bliss and love, and not for getting the love/bliss from the gig/experience, but for expressing the love/bliss that already always lives in ones True Home, right here and right now... And maybe don't value the n+1 Alien anything higher than the bliss/love of ones essence... You know, "others" might get inspired to go chasing their own tail too....

    Selling Water by the River 

  7. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

    The way i see it, is that if god ceased dreaming, if god ceased all imagination, all experience would vanish and he would be in nirodha samapatti state. So by that logic calling nirodha samapatti a dream doesn't quite follow. It's more like a total end of all dreams. Don't know about others, but that makes more sense to me.

    Nirodha Samapatti/Cessation/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep - Causal States: Absolute Reality or passing states. Both!

    Please allow me some musings on that topic...

    The Nothingness/Infinite Reality in which the show happens right here right now is the same Nothingness that is also the Reality of Nirodha Samapatti. And all other (causal) states, like cessation and so on. Same goes for example of Infinity-"Whiteouts" of 5-MeO experiences and the like.

    IT/Nothingness is right here, Infinite Reality itself, It can never not be there. The essence of any manifestation. It is timeless, always here. Eternal. Immortal. Or better: Timeless, like in "can't go anywhere else, has to be right here always". Even in causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep.

    • Ones True Eternal Impersonal(!) Being, Infinite Consciousness, the Universal Mind itself.

    Nirodha Samapatti is a special configuration/modulation IT(Infinite Consciousness/Reality) can have, although that modulation of it REVEALS much of its True Essence, Nothingness.

    • IT has also the Infinite Potential to appear as the whole show, the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness.
    • And that manifested side is truly nondual with the unmanifested side of Infinite consciousness, One without a second.

    By logic, "what something is, its essence" has theoretically to be always the same (Which is why everything perceivable doesn't really exist, because it is temporary, changing. Using verbs instead of nouns would be much more approriate).

    • That is why Nothingness (pointing to the "always there" Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness) is for example a much better pointer than for example anything pointing towards the "Manifested Side" of Infinite Consciousness, like the eternal flow of shapes, or even Gods/Buddhfields.
    • As long as anything with form, anything specific (and that means also ANYTHING changing, which is also only temporary) is identified with the Absolute: Good luck getting rid of that... There is only one Thing/Non-Thing that is eternal/timeless, Reality itself. Anything else is changing.... The flow of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness.
    • Of course the changing flow of the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is in a nondual way the same as the Unmanifested Nothingness Side. But the ESSENCE of the manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is Nothingness, not the other way round. The Manifested Side is NOT the essence of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness. Because the manifested side can go (Nirodha Samapatti), so it is not the essence (not what something is, see above).
      • The necklace and gold. Gold would be the unmanifested stay, it stays. The necklace disappeares in the furnace, leaving only god. One is the essence of the other, not the other way round. Nirodha Samapatti is the gold as molten in the furnace, without shape/properties. The necklace, or any jewellery, is the show/manifested side of Infinite Consciousness/gold.

    A very nice book on the Awakenings/Enlightenments into the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness vs. the Unmanifested Side (and impersonal/causal/Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness:

    • Infinite Consciousness: An In-depth Exploration of the Shift in Consciousness Constitutive of Enlightenment in relation to True Nature, the Soul, the Body-Mind, the Heart and the Me, Michaël Szyper
      • being able to differentiate between Awakenings/Enlightenments into the Manifested or Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness would also put the whole Awakening n+1 show in a better perspective. A perspective that would actually bring real peace.... But of course would take a lot of juice out of the show, so lets see if Maya prefers the juicy show for yet a bit longer... If in doubt, always bet on Maya! You never get disappointed... ;) Either she looses (which is nice), or the bet is won. A win-win situation :$ uhhhh, sorry. And as always, Bon Voyage!

    Summarizing all of that: Nirodha Samapatti is a state, and is Nothingness, but is still a conditioned state. Temporary. But very useful and making the Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness quite clear...

    • But since it is an expression of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness, it is closer and a better pointer, a state making Absolute Reality/Nothingness clearer than for example saying the Infinite Flow of Infinite Reality (or anything with form, anything that can be described, God (not the Godhead), Buddhafield, whatever), which is a pointer to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness.

    That framework explains why concerning Causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep.

    • (1) some say it IS the Absolute
    • (2) and some say it is only a state, passing, temporary.

    As most of the time, nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time, or even completely wrong with a statement (although some go looong ways to performe quite good in both categories, but that is another topic).

    • Same here: Both statements (1) and (2) are true, but partial, and need to be put into context. Then it can be integrated.
    • That is why I am such a fan of Integral Thinking/Integral Cognition. It solves contradictions.... And if one has partial truths and contradictions in ones Mental Operating System, one is a walking contradiction on two legs, the prime victim of Maya and suffering of the self-contraction (also a contradiction walking on two feet). Although some seem to enjoy it quite a bit, at least for a time... :)

    Maybe that is a bit helpful...

    Selling Water by the River

  9. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    Any idea is a wall, but the idea of others is a big one because prevents you to become absolute

    Yes.

    If you work carefully with Solipsism, and what I have read from you so far sounds very responsible. Danger is: When there is no other, there can still be you. Only you. One. Not One without a second. One, but not fully nondual/impersonal. 

    Breakingthewall, from what I read you understand this very well, the danger and potential of that concept. Please allow me some general musings on the topic, not specifically adressed to you.

    The idea that the ego/separate self is God is the worst idea one can have. We agree on that. Blows up that which one has to kill/transcend. The opposite of Neti Neti. Shooting oneself in the knee and then starting the Marathon, and saying: I have done a good preparation for the run.

    At least in my perspective, there is zero problem for integrating the different views concerning Solipsism, and its partial truths:

    • Solipsism on the level of the separate self: Wrong. The separate self IS NOT GOD or Reality. Ones True Being (Nothingness) is Infinite Reality, not the separate-self-cloud covering exactly that deep impersonal immortal always here True Identity.
    • Solipsism on the level of the Absolute/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind: right. But totally useless once one is there, because it is just another fake concept floating in ones most obvious True Being. One snips it off like a fly. And before being there, it harms one also, because in any way it blows up ones ego, even if very subtle. And even if its just one more concept floating in oneself. I never had the need to think in Solipsistic terms while letting Nonduality ripen. Never. It would have only hurt me on the path, probably big time.

    How to get rid of "other", the loving style:

    • And if one starts really feeling and intuiting that ones own being and consciousness is looking out from the eyes from another human (or any being): You would never ever start with ideas of Solipsism. Never. Instead, that beginning recognition is the highest level of empathy and love.
    • But at that moment, there is no "you". Just impersonal Consciousness, in you, and the "other". It doesn't even make sense to say there is no other, because that implies that you are there (as concept and subtle separate self identity, not as Reality), because there really is no other. But also no you. Not one, but One without a second. Nondual, and not just Union of one with the Totality.
    • So one  can't say there is only me. There is only THAT. And nothing more can be said about that. And it is not one! It is not two! It is the one without a second. Nondual. Not one. 
    • And THAT  is love, THAT is impersonal being, THAT is the essence of all of Reality. And THAT is also Nothingness.

    But anyway: If one thinks about it while on the way of getting to the Absolute, the concept of Solipsism is not useful. And when "one" is there, it is another crappy and redundant concept floating through oneself that also doesn't make sense.

    Which means nothing else then: The concept is not useful at any point in time on the path. It is a half-true half-false concept, making it completely false. Like every half-truth. If one wants to get home fast, better forget about it! Or use it with extreme care.

    I personally would rather recommend dissolving each and every concept, let real nonduality (an awakened state) ripen in an nonceonceptual empty mindstream, than playing Russian Roulette with such a concept. Ones separate self is not even dead when the shot goes off, but even more alive and bigger than ever....

     

    Selling Water by the River

  10. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    43 minutes ago, Moksha said:

    @Water by the River Saving one sentient solipsist at a time :ph34r:

    Bodhi originally has no tree.
    The mirror has no stand.
    The Buddha-nature is always clear and pure.
    Where is there room for dust?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng

    updated "Actualized" version:

    Bodhi originally has no tree.
    The mirror has no stand.
    The Buddha-nature is always clear and pure.
    Where is there room for dust?
    How can one not kill the "Other" of the Solipsist when meeting him on the Road?

     

    Koan for Actualized: Does the "Other" of a solipsist have Buddha Nature?

     

    I think when I retire I will move to the Absolute Side of the Street. I already know who will be my neighbour.

     

    Selling Water by the River

    Basho: “frog pond plop” 

  13. Posted

    14 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

    It's the only Truth. There is only One perspective. There are no other bubbles of perception, there is one bubble and that bubble is the Absolute. 

    hey, if we really go fully from the Relative side of the street on the Absolute side of the street, lets do it with style, and leave the little bubble at home:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng

    Poem contest[edit]

    Eight months later, the Fifth Patriarch summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest for his followers to demonstrate the stage of their understanding of the essence of mind. He decided to pass down his robe and teachings to the winner of the contest, who would become the Sixth Patriarch.[11] Shenxiu, the leading disciple of the Fifth Patriarch, composed a stanza, but did not have the courage to present it to the master. Instead, he wrote his stanza on the south corridor wall to remain anonymous one day at midnight. The other monks saw the stanza and commended it. Shenxiu's stanza is as follows:[13]

    The body is the bodhi tree.
    The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
    At all times we must strive to polish it
    and must not let dust collect.[note 1]

    The Patriarch was not satisfied with Shenxiu's stanza, and pointed out that the poem did not show understanding of "[his] own fundamental nature and essence of mind."[11] He gave Shenxiu a chance to submit another poem to demonstrate that he had entered the "gate of enlightenment," so that he could transmit his robe and the Dharma to Shenxiu, but the student's mind was agitated and could not write one more stanza.[11]

    Two days later, the illiterate Huineng heard Shenxiu's stanza being chanted by a young attendant at the monastery and inquired about the context of the poem. The attendant explained to him the poem contest and the transmission of the robe and Dharma.[11] Huineng asked to be led to the corridor, where he could also pay homage to the stanza. He asked a low-ranking official named Zhang Riyong from Jiangzhou to read the verse to him, and then immediately asked him to write down a stanza that he composed.[14]

    According to McRae, "the earliest version of the Platform Sutra contains two versions of Huineng's verse. Later version contain one version of Huineng's stanza, somewhat different from the two older ones:[15]

    Bodhi originally has no tree.
    The mirror has no stand.
    The Buddha-nature is always clear and pure.
    Where is there room for dust?

    The followers who were present were astonished by the work of a southern barbarian. Being cautious of Huineng's status, the Patriarch wiped away the stanza and claimed that the author of the stanza had not reached enlightenment.[

    Succession of Hongren[edit]

    However, on the next day, the Patriarch secretly went to Huineng's room and asked, "Should not a seeker after the Dharma risk his life this way?" Then he asked, "is the rice ready?" Huineng responded that the rice was ready and only waiting to be sieved.[11] The Patriarch secretly explained the Diamond Sutra to Huineng, and when Huineng heard the phrase "one should activate one’s mind so it has no attachment," he was "suddenly and completely enlightened, and understood that all things exist in self-nature."[11]

    The Dharma was passed to Huineng at night, when the Patriarch transmitted "the doctrine of sudden enlightenment" as well as his robe and bowl to Huineng. He told Huineng, “You are now the Sixth Patriarch. Take care of yourself, save as many sentient beings as you can, and spread the teachings so they will not be lost in the future.

    Selling Water by the River

  14. Posted

    45 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

    Absolute Solipsism is absolutely true. Anyone that says different is not awake. Oh well. It is what it is.

    But since according to Absolute Solipsism there are no others, there is no other/nobody to say different. Absolute Solipsism proven, Quod erat demonstrandum

    Did I make a mistake in my logic? Somebody please help me?

    Or do I get my PhD in Circular reasoning right here & now?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning#:~:text=Circular reasoning (Latin%3A circulus in,are trying to end with.

    :$;)

    Selling Water by the River 

  16. Posted

    31 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

    Finally a worthy opponent lol.

    I also said this: Also when I use ignorance I divide it into two camps: Lack of knowledge due to lack of exposure, and willful ignoring after being exposed. The first you cannot be held accountable for but the last you can. This is why anytime you are blessed with information it is your responsibility to take advantage of that opportunity. There are many who will never get access to certain information so access to information is a blessing and should be valued.

    So there are also people who enter Spirituality then sincerely corrupt the teachings. There are literally people who read all the teachings, then make themselves teachers without ever truly verifying (this part is okay since they are trying to understand) but eventually they even start claiming they KNOW what the truth is even though they haven't verified anything. 

    We have a couple on these forums right now. No mystical experiences, all they have done is conceptual. Then we have the opposite, got a mystical experience into the true nature of reality....but refuse to accept it. Both are sincere denial of truth, no different than a woman who refuses to accept the fact that her son is a serial killer. All the evidence is there but she refuses to admit that her "precious boy" could have done it. This is why you hear me say people are liars and full of shit. 

    Because one never verified and claims he knows, the other verified but refuses to accept. LOL They are like mirror images of each other.

    Today: Absolute Solipsism having "Finally a worthy opponent lol." . Like in "there are no others", but somehow Absolute Solipsism found a worthy opponent. Can somebody please explain this oxymoron to me? Or do I have to stick to my old musings below?

    Razard, with Moksha you  have on the relative level a really worthy opponent and sparringspartner. Funny thing is:  Moksha is not what you think Moskha is. There is just Infinite Reality doing its thing. Like in "you", minus the illusion....

    And one of the reasons for the manifestation of this show/Lila is: The biggest joke ever.

    Selling Water by the River

  17. Posted

    9 minutes ago, Moksha said:

     When realization goes deep, even beyond the soul, there is only pure awareness. The witness and the witnessed conflate into the absolute reality beyond both.

    Yes, fully agree. I just wrote about the soul (reluctantly, and highlighting its relative and illusion level), because its quite easy to ignore Karma and cause-effect when flying high on "its all imagined".

    Water by the River

  18. Posted

    14 minutes ago, RedLine said:

    You say Emptiness and Absolute are 2 sides of the same coin. Correct me if I am wrong, in that post you implicitly mean that the bias of the Vedanta towards Absolute notion has to do with the meditation technique they use (Non-dual awareness) vs Buddhist using more analytical meditation (Vipassana); rather than ones being more "spiritual advanced" that the other. Did I understand correctly?

    Dear RedLine,

    valid questions, but answering them in detail would cause another waaay to long rambling from my side. The answers to your questions are in my previous posts. Please feel invited to check them out, and if you don't find something useful for your questions, feel free to send me a PM.

    Short answer is: Both Vedanta and Buddhist meditation system know and use Nondual states. The trick is how to get there. Latest when getting nondual states (and probably already before when you really start to get the emptiness nature of every thought arising, and can start to dissolve your own suffering-self-contraction-arisings), you will be hellbent to continue the path. Also, the paths starts showing itself to itself then. It goes "downhill" from there, not uphill. Because you have seen the benefits of the path there (bliss starts flowing).

    One could say that Vedanta and Theravada tend quite strongly towards concentrative methods, same as the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali for example and Zen. But not exclusively. See Daniel Browns dissertation for example.

    The Mahamudra system has got some real unique techniques of combining concentrative and insight elements to learn to be able to ride along the mental talk of the mindstream in a lucid/mindful way.

    • That way, you can use daily life very efficient to get the necessary momentum for for example nondual states and getting to impersonal Awakened Awareness.
    • I can only highly recommend Daniel Browns Pointing Out the Great Way on that topic.

    And by the way, one can't say Buddhist practice style, there many systems in Buddhism. Theravada is very different from for example Tibetan Mahamudra.

    My personal opinion is that the Mahamudra-Sytem (for example in the book of Brown) is orders of magnitude more efficient than most other systems I know.

    Selling Water by the River

  19. Posted

    2 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

    They're very serious life altering events, people including quite experienced meditators pay thousands of dollars for the ceremonies to induce it.

    Nobody would waste their time or money with that crap (and also take the physical risks involved) if they could go through the same sort of mystical awakening by watching some videos.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awe

    "Awe is an emotion comparable to wonder[1] but less joyous. On Robert Plutchik's wheel of emotions[2] awe is modeled as a combination of surprise and fear.

    One dictionary definition is "an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is grand, sublime, extremely powerful, or the like: in awe of God; 

    "

    And in the german wikipedia, it defines it even better:

    "Ehrfurcht ist ein hochsprachliches Wort für eine mit Verehrung einhergehende Furcht. Sie bezieht sich immer auf einen übermächtigen (erhabenen) Adressaten, ob real oder fiktiv. Sie kann individuell oder allgemein üblich sein. Sie empfinden zu können, wird zumeist als Tugend angesehen. „Ehrfurcht“ ist stärker als „Scheu“ oder „Achtung“, schwächer als „Unterwerfung“ oder „Anbetung“. Im Brockhaus von 1896 wird die Ehrfurcht als „der höchste Grad der Ehrerbietung, das Gefühl der Hingabe an dasjenige, was man höher schätzt als sich selbst, sei es eine Person oder eine geistige Macht, wie Vaterland, Wissenschaft, Kirche, Staat, Menschheit, Gottheit“ beschrieben"

    "Awe is a fear that goes along veneration. Awe always relates to something that is perceived as overpowering (sublime) addressee, real or fictive. .... . In the Brockhaus dictionary of 1896 awe is described as "the highest degree of veneration, the feeling of submission to that which one values higher as ones own self, be it a person or a  mental/spiritual power, like motherland, science, church, state, humanity or Divinity".

    Hope my translation is not completely off... :)

    Sure, later Reality/God/Divinity/Nothingness is experiences as ones own True Essence. But if one hasn't felt awe on the way there, I would take that as a big indicator that there is more juicy stuff to experience. ;)

    Daniel Brown said that the genuine reaction to a glimpse of the Dharmakaya is awe. An awe that humbles the separate self to its knees. Because THAT is way overpowering, like "something that is perceived as overpowering (sublime) addressee" of the definition of awe above.

    Selling Water by the River

  20. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    And the dream doesn't stop. Even after waking up, the dream/show continues.

    • And if one goes Wake Up, Grow up, Clean Up, Show Up, one can have a happy lucid dream.
    • And if one spiritual-bypasses, one can have a nightmare. And then it is more challenging staying lucid in.

    Also, controversial topic, but here is my take:

    • The separate self is an illusion, but appears.
    • And same with the soul. It is an illusion, but appears. So it has "relative" reality as illusion, just like the separate-self.
      • It takes the aspects of wisdom/transcendence and love/compassion of a being/perspective from life to life. At least according to Tibetan Buddhism, at least these two aspects are the soul that don't die with death.
      • The bundle of karmic imprints that goes from one life to the next. It is also just an illusion, but appears. 

    Do you think any being that has woken up would cut off his hand just for fun? Do "dumb" things that make life not a celebration, but "hey, today I feel like cutting off my hand just to see the drama of it". Because it is just an illusion? Yeah, very smart.... O.o , and for sure that what the Kosmos wants....

    And same with the illusion of the soul and Karma.

    This whole universe is growing to more complexity, and humanity is also not going in a circle stone age - industrial age - all gets blown up - stone age - ... - n+1 for the 100s time. No, it goes directly, and fast, from bacteria-plant-animal-human-awakening of some- awakening of more - .... Ken Wilber calls that drive of the Kosmos Eros, or growth to higher integration and complexity.

    And then maybe an upload of the whole hive-mind to subtle realities (Andrew Gallimore, "Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game"). That would perfectly explain the Fermi-Paradoxon. But hey, I am rambling on. Luckily, my other posts are rather short.... :P

    Ken Wilber also said: When you have seen, and don't tell, your soul gets very very sick.

    So, woken up or not, want a celebration or a night-mare? Yours truly just loved the effects of not cutting off his hand for fun so far.... ;)

    Selling Water by the River

     

    Although my view is higher than the sky,

    My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour.

    – Padmasambhava 

     

     

  21. Posted

    12 minutes ago, RedLine said:

    Not sure if you mean here that Leo God Realization is stage 3 (Wilber Causal) or stage 4 (Wilber Non-Dual). How do you explain 4 path buddhists denny so hard that notions Leo handles, and choose more "materialistc" or "mundane" lingo to describe experience and reality?. Is it because they are in Stage 4 and Leo in Stage 3? 

    For Leos Awakenings or Realizations, please ask himself. 

    My personal opinion and perspective (and nothing more than that) on concepts like Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is stated here:

    And my recommendation would be, similiar to something like Bassui said: Not too much theory. After reading the "letter", throw it in the fire, and practice.

     

    13 minutes ago, RedLine said:

    Also, why do buddhists reject the God/Absolute concept and Vedanta use it? Are they in differente stages of transpersonal develpment? 

    Please see here:

    Selling Water by the River

  22. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    52 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

    What do you all think?

    If you are completely AWAKE, do you even bother to join discussions on a forum? Do you even care to talk about Spirituality? Because Spirituality is the path not the TRUTH.

    I don't know what to say, think or assume about that.

    I'll contemplate.

    Ken Wilber, One Taste:

    "Monday, March 24. With the awakening of constant consciousness, you becomesomething of a divine schizophrenic, in the popular sense of “split-minded,” because you have access to both the Witnessand the ego. You are actually “whole-minded,” but it sounds like it’s split, because you are aware of the constant Witness or Spirit in you, and you are also perfectly aware of themovie of life, the ego and all its ups and downs. So you still feel pain and suffering and sorrow, but they can no longer convince you of their importance—you are no longer the victim of life, but its Witness.

    In fact, because you are no longer afraid of your feelings,you can engage them with much greater intensity. The movie of life becomes more vivid and vibrant, precisely because you are no longer grasping or avoiding it, and thus no longer trying to dull or dilute it. You no longer turn the volume down. You might even cry harder, laugh louder, jump higher. Choiceless awareness doesn’t mean you cease to feel; it means you feel fully, feel deeply, feel to infinity itself, and laugh and cry and love until it hurts. Life jumps right off the screen, and you are one with all of it, because you don’t recoil.

    If you are having a dream, and you think it’s real, it can get very scary. Say you are dreaming that you are tightropewalking across Niagara Falls. If you fall off, you plunge to your death. So you are walking very slowly, very carefully.Then suppose you start lucid dreaming, and you realize that it’s just a dream. What do you do? Become more cautious and careful? No, you start jumping up and down on the tightrope, you do flips, you bounce around, you have a ball—precisely because you know it isn’t real. When you realize it’s a dream, you can afford to play.

    The same thing happens when you realize that ordinary life is just a dream, just a movie, just a play. You don’t become more cautious, more timid, more reserved. You start jumping up and down and doing flips, precisely because it’sall a dream, it’s all pure Emptiness. You don’t feel less, you feel more—because you can afford to. You are no longer afraid of dying, and therefore you are not afraid of living.You become radical and wild, intense and vivid, shocking and silly. You let it all come pouring through, because it’s all your dream.

    Life then assumes its true intensity, its vivid luminosity, itsradical effervescence. Pain is more painful and happiness is happier; joy is more joyous and sorrow is even sadder. It all comes radiantly alive to the mirror-mind, the mind that doesn’t grasp or avoid, but simply witnesses the play, and therefore can afford to play, even as it watches.

    What would motivate you if you saw everything as the dream of your own highest Self? What would actually move you in this playful dream world? Everything in the dream is basically fun, at some deep level, except for this: when you see your friends suffering because they think the dream is real, you want to relieve their suffering, you want them to wake up, too. Watching them suffer is not fun. And so a deep and powerful compassion arises in the heart of the awakened ones, and they seek, above all else, to awaken others—and thus relieve them from the sorrow and the pity,the torment and the pain, the terror and the anguish that comes from taking with dreadful seriousness the passing dream of life.

    So you are a divine schizophrenic, you are “split-minded” in the sense that you are simultaneously in touch with both the pure Witness and the world of the ego-film. But that really means you are actually “whole-minded,” because these two worlds are really not-two. The ego is just the dream of the Witness, the film that the Witness creates out of its own infinite plenitude, simply so it will have something to watch at the movies.

    At that point the entire play arises within your own constant consciousness. There is no inside and no outside, no in here versus out there. The nondual universe of One Taste arises as a spontaneous gesture of your own true nature. You can taste the sun and swallow the moon, and centuries fit in the palm of your hand. The pure I-I, the greatI AMness, breathes to infinity and creates a Kosmos as the Song of its very Self, and oceans of compassion fall as tears from your very own Original Face.

    Last night I saw the reflection of the moon in a cool clear crystal pond, and nothing else happened."

     

    Selling Water by the River

  23. Posted

    52 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

    The idea of having to be without attachment/craving won’t even exist when you’re awake to such a high degree. You’ll understand everything; that idea will hold absolutely no weight.

    I mean the ripening phase of for example Yoga of One Taste nor Nonmeditation-Yoga with resting in Ones True Being. It is not fully clear at that phase. After crossing over/waking up/Basis Enlightenment it is.

    I didn't write clearly in this paragraph you quoted.

    The speciality of Mahamudra in general, and Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation especially, is pointing out as much as possible from ones True Nature at each stage, and bringing forth the benefit of resting/training in these states. And going from meditation state induction to realization/understanding to further meditation state experience to realization, and so on. Like in a upwards-going spiral.

    Selling Water by the River

  24. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    1 hour ago, RedLine said:

    1. Just to make sure. Nondual Realization/Enlightenment you mention is the same as "living withouth an ego", the 4 path, the moment to moment experience that Angelo Dullio, Frank Yank, Daniel Ingram, etc have and use to describe rigth?

    Yes. Don't know Angelo Dulio (but Ingram and Yangs descriptions). Full Enlightenment has the same deep structure always. Only one Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind. Without a second. But the way & style being talked about it later varies from perspective to perspective.

    And to be more precise: The ego (as technical term) or character continues doing its thing. The separate-self-arisings/elements gets understood/seen in real time (and in all its aspect) as illusions moving in oneself, and are transcended and normally cut off (Trekchö) as Illusion. Unnecessary. Awakaned Awareness takes over, and lives ones life much more efficient than the old biased separate-self ever could. Waaay more pleasant. "One" just gets out of the way.

    • Like a lense of perception, normally with some kind of location/center, with I-feelings and I-thoughts.
    • That drops.
    • What remains is an Understanding/Realization of
      • that which can never not be there, Reality itself.
      • That is Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all appearance, including the visual field, is that.
      • That Nothingness is infinite, since any boundary to anything else would be form, an imagined arising.
      • and while there are Infinite Perspectives in Indras Net, non-dimensionally "hovering" or being manifested/imagined in Nothingness (out of which you normally forget all but "your" perspective (and call that your life), the Awareness of all of these perspectives can ever only be that Infinite Nothingness, which is also the essence/Suchness of every appearance.
      • Deep Structures of the process towards Enlightenment. To get there, you need at least the following Awakenings (discrete "hard" STATES, induced by meditation, psychedelic, karma, ..., that one can not jump with just conceptual thinking/videos/whatever. That ends with one form of Solipsism or another, a cul-de-sac)
        • the ego-mind becoming a fully transparent witness (Mahamudra. Yoga 1 & 2): Death/Transcendence of the ego/person. Outcome Transparent Witness. Not yet death/Transcendence of the Indviduality/last subtle separate selves.
        • Nonduality with the visual field (Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3). Induced and boosted by the step above.
        • the visual field becoming boundless/infinite (further ripening of One Taste Yoga): Infinite
        • the Awakening that Consciousness is Nothingness, nothing that can ever be pointed to, and the Awakening that each and every appearance of the visual field IS Nothingness, its essence is Nothingness (further ripening of One Taste Yoga). Generalizing this awakening/understanding to any possible manifestation.
        • the Awakening to this boundless infinite visual field/Consciousness being also timeless, eternal, never-not-here. Deathless alway-here-Mind.
        • the "you" becoming nothing at all, no center, no lense, no feeling, no thought. Or all of that moving through you like the wind: Mahamudra, Yoga of Nonmeditation, stage 4.
          • The visual field remains, but without you. Impersonal. That is a ripening process of Impersonality (similiar to the ripening of Nonduality in the Yoga of One Taste), which
          • ends suddenly with waking up, or Full Enlightenment, crossing over to the Dharmakaya or whatever lingo floats ones boat.
          • That is Full Enlightenment. Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. Fully Waking up to ones True Identity. The Awakenings of Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3, are already called Enlightenments, for example in Zen. That is a much more common Enlightenment than the real one, Basis Enlightenment. 
            • That is why for example Leo emphasizes in God Realization that True You/Reality/"God" (I am reluctant to use that word, not because it is technically incorrect, but because it can lead to a lot of Separate-Self-Boosting) imagines everything. That becomes fully clear with Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment, realizing the full identity of oneself and Reality. Infinite Nothingness manifesting/imagining the whole gig. Like in couldn't be different, nowhere and in no dimension/time/anything. Can't be.
    •  That was a longer musing than I expected. These are the Deep Structures of the process of Enlightenment. that I have found in ANY Enlightenment-Path-Description. (like in: a few hundreds of books later. You know, nutcase...). 
    • You can have that and do that with cessations and a concentrative meditation path, or Dzogchen/Mahamudra. One doesn't need cessations, as Ingram and Yang confirm. Both (and also Wilber) changed later to include Mahamudra/Dzogchen elements. That gave at least yours truly something to think about. Good book for Mahamudra: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. Many posts of yours truly on that also...

    And one little warning: Without the corresponding Awakening states, one will

    • a) not understand (or get) Nonduality or Union with the (infinite) visual field by just conceptual description (for example of the one of yours truly above). No chance. But you can recognize when that starts to happen when you know the map of the path. You can know how to induce that with practice, and how to make out of a spark a forest fire
    • b) not understand the full Impersonal nature of ones true being (Nothingness), the death and transcendence of the separate self. That is impossible before it fully happens. But one can get at least an idea when the ripening of that happens. When it fully happens, its clear. Unmistakenably so. Waking Up.

    So the "game"/path is to induce these states, via for example the practices described above. And then there is a cycle of meditation state->realization/understanding->boosting more meditation state (because it got more impersonal) -> more realization/understanding n+1.

    "Thinking" ones way to Oneness/God/ItsallIMAGINED and itSAULGOODMAN doesn't work, only leads to Ego/Separate-Self-Solipsism.

     

    1 hour ago, RedLine said:

    2. I don´g get how can be form and this form not be formed by craving. Doesn´t it cotradict the 5 agreggates frame? it is hard for me to understand how nirodha samapatti can´t be ontologhical superior than nirvana. 

    The 5 aggregate frame is from the earliest phases of Buddhism. Buddhism tended to end at (and emphasize) causal states back in the day (like Nirvana/Cessation/Nothingness as state). That mostly got replaced (transcended and in included) with superior realizations later, Nondual in Ken Wilbers language (Nagarjuna,  Madhyamaka). That basically means not loosing ones Identity as Nothingness being the whole Infinite Field (and the essence of that being Nothingness, not metaphorically but literally, as direct experience) as Nothingness. A nice statement from that stage is: - We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.- Kalu Rinpoche. That is a statement one doesn't normally here from the early Buddhism phases.

    1 hour ago, RedLine said:

    My current undestanding is that if those enlighten people are still alive and not went into mahasamadi is becuase they still hold some little craving for forms related to surviving.

    Yours truly would recommend forgetting the concept of Mahasamadhi. Cultural Baggage. Why should that happen? So much effort for the whole imagined/manifested show, and then its game over when one understand what one is? Doesn't happen in practice, and why should it? For the first time, one can play and celebrate manifestation without the fear and lack and cycle of suffering. That is the True Nondual Realization.

    • It is not the scarcity and quite negative perspective of escaping suffering and reaching Nirvana that early Buddhism/Hinayana had.
    • It is the full celebration of manifestation, full with Agape, and if done in an integral way and with intelligence just a beautiful dream.
    • See Francis Lucille for example. He calls it life is a celebration then. It is. He has a very sane perspective on all of that. 

    And please feel invited to review my archieve of posts for more details because yours truly is God, marvels all day at his own perfection, of course has madly fallen in LOVE with himself, and nobody else is awake, you are all dreaming, and only God can describe himself in the best way of all Multiverses possible since there are no others, and everbody else is wrong because or biased and so on and so on (put in the Solipsistic Ramblings of your preference n+1), and its all imagined anyway!!! ;):$ Sorry, just kidding of course. If you like that channel, just ask and you will helped by various proponents of Absolute Solipsism and other funny concepts ;)

    Selling Water by the River

    PS: Very necessary, after all this conceptual overkill of yours truly:

    • Bassui: After having read the letter, drop it into the fire
    • Much more true than all the stuff written above: “frog pond plop” Basho

  25. Posted

    8 hours ago, RedLine said:

    Oh yeah, all is imaginary, oops but the idea of "all this imaginary" is imanginary too, ooooo but the idea of " the idea of "all this imaginary"" is also imaginary.

    That exactly how it is.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

    Ken Wilbers take on that is that it takes stage yellow cognition (integral thinking, Vision logic, Piaget post-formal cognition/logic) to fully get that, and to spot when one does it. And stop doing it.

    Stage green cognition (relative thinking, not yet post-formal cognition) tends to have a hard time with that.

    But has the potential to make a great show ;)

    Selling Water by the River

     

    PS: And even Emptiness is empty. Best is to be in the right nondual enlightened fully empty state and say “frog pond plop” (Batso). Not like the way of the way too loooong ramblings of yours truly :)