Water by the River

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Posts posted by Water by the River

  1. Posted

    No worries. Neither Steve Jobs nor yours truly empty mirror frame got hurt by imaginary icepicks.

    Although I would still vote for Bazooka as the most awake, lets agree to disagree on that and certain other issues from time to time?

    Um, so let us all smoke the pipe of peace with an ingridient of ones preference, and peace & love & respect again. From my side no bad feelings.

    Water by the River

     

     

  2. Posted

    17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    What I can tell you very simply and directly is that you are dreaming Buddhist/Nondualist enlightenment. Everyone of these nondualist/Buddhist teachers who thinks he is enlightened is dreaming it and its not conscious that he's doing so. He tells himself that he's awake, he truly believes it, but he is not AWAKE. This is definitely the case.

    "Everyone of these nondualist/Buddhist teachers who thinks he is enlightened is dreaming it and its not conscious that he's doing so. He tells himself that he's awake, he truly believes it"

    That is your assumption, and it is incorrect. There is no agency-arising left that identifies with "is enlightened" and which is still believed and not seen as dream, moving as illusion arising within Infinite Consciousness/Reality. There is no one left who believes he is awake. That is exactly what is seen through with Full Enlightenment. Enlightenment is the Realization that there is no separate anything, nevery was (only as illusion), and never will be. Only the Totality of Absolute Reality. 

    Water by the River

  3. Posted

     

    5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    What I speak about is beyond anything a human can reason.

    Heard that somewhere before.

    Sure, there is a lot of .... God and manifestation between Heaven and Earth to understand & explore and awaken to. Enough to keep God busy until.... Infinity & Eternity.

    Anyway, bon voyage, enjoy the ride, and all the best. When you are done awakening, don't forget to come home.

    Water by the River

  4. Posted

    9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    Enlightenment is a fantasy. It is not AWAKENING.

    Enlightened people are not AWAKE.

    You guys keep spreading enlightened bullshit on this forum.

    Some questions are still unanswered from your side in the post below:

    On 29.5.2023 at 11:09 PM, Water by the River said:

    Why don't you make some nice definitions of what God-Realization is according to your definition, and why that is higher than FULL Enlightenment?

    • With emphazis on FULL Enlightenment, in which each and every and possible appearance/arising/separate-self anything is seen as mere appearance/manifestation/illusion/dream IN THAT (One without a second, Absolute, Nothingness), and each and every backgroundstory (history, others, past, spiritual system, separate self-arising, ANYTHING) is seen as dream/mirage/illusion? As dream/mirage/illusion arising here and now, its essence being Nothingness.
    • Not the partial Enlightenments, which are probably 50 times more common than the real thing. In the partial Enlightenments, of course there is still the background-BS-story still active, because the separate-self (even the empty and unity/nondual version of it) still dreams its dream? A more lucid dream, but not woken up yet?
    • The constant similiarity between all FULL Enlightenment descriptions is: ALL is dream, ALL is Lila, ALL is Illusion/mirage, All is show. Lila= Absolute/God/Reality fooling itself to play a little game... And not only ALL of it is a Dream/Fooling oneself, ANY possible n+1 form/arising can only be dreaming/fooling oneself.
    • How can God Realization go "deeper" in understanding the illusion of "how God fools itself" than Full Enligthenment, if in Full Enlightenment each and any concept/feeling-arising, especially deep ones of the separate-anything-self, are seen as fooling oneself? Like in, any possible form at all, n+1?

    from

    Did you notice that in your post you just make claims, but give zero reasoning, arguments or experience-descriptions to argue these claims? 

    Water by the River

  6. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    21 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    Well, the thing that's very difficult to understand is that for reality there is not crap. we as humans are pure bias. even if we try very hard, we are still bias. good karma, bad karma, etc. for reality seems that there is only existence. That thing about the horse is perfect for reality. 

    (Manifest) Reality is also clearly biased: Despite the physical universe winding down towards more Entropy (or basically every energy/matter evenly mixed and distributed), on pretty much every other level it winds up: Evolution from atoms to molecules to bacteria to plants to animals to humans, from stoneage to larger neoltihic groups, to ancient states and empires, industrial age, information age, and onwards to a completely unforeseeable future. Upload to some subtle realms , infinite other dimensions to be explored, and all that stuff.

    We are not walking on a planet where there have been 500 civilizations that all failed, blown themselves up in nuclear war, and started again in stone age. Such a game is possible, in which we would dig out ruins that we know nothing about, since they are the 462 restart of 4 millions years ago, where no informations have survived what happened but only some stone ruins. No, this here is the first try, and its still running fine and progressing with incredible speed.

    Manifest Reality (from everything we see) is clearly biased to "winding up", towards evolution, more complexity, transcendence and love. Ken Wilber calls this drive/tendency of the Universe Eros. Reaching a level of complexity where it also can actually realize itself, happening a long time ago with the first Truly Nondual Realizers (Plotinus, Parmenidies, Nagarjuna, and so on).

    Infinity/Unmanifest/Nothingness, Big Bang/Involution (see Wilber for Involution), Evolution, trip back home, and once more. The big game of hide and seek.

    That (Eros, Evolution) is one aspect of reality. An other deep aspect is the unconditional love (Agape) that also runs through the fabric of reality, creating and sustaining all beings on every level. All of us, right here, right now, with incredible complexity.

    I agree that for example the Assyrians in their attempt to build one of the first really large empires that encompassed many kingdoms and tribes were sometimes very cruel. Reality can not intervene in a physical universe and send some guardian angel from the sky. That would break the game immediately. But is that cruelty still in fashion? It is mostly frowned upon by nearly all people nowadays.

    That cruelty is not the main tendency of reality. It is the complexity of evolution that sometimes goes sour, of separate beings sacrificing fellow beings for their "Atman-projects", building empires as surrogates for transcendence, as Ken Wilber calls it. And yet, as we see when we look back, these empires were necessary for a larger integration and unity, at least in certain ways.

    Wilber, Up from Eden: A Transpersonal View of Human Evolution. I think you would like the book.

    And you are also right in the following aspect: As we see, despite the Horror story, Absolute Reality didn't get broken. "IT" has no moving parts that could get broken. In that way, it didn't care, since it didn't suffer, only contained suffering.

    That is the Absolute perspective. But when we consider it from a relative perspective (which we do as soon as we think about these events), we can also consider that most aspects and mechanisms of relative reality on the manifest/relative level in fact do wind up (not down), and in a way do care a lot that winding up, evolution, growth/development towards more love, or in general the way home, happens.

    Water by the River  

  7. Posted

    1 minute ago, Yimpa said:

    @Water by the River I’d say you’re selling saltwater by the river now ;) 

    Actually, there is already quite some saltwater-dose in my signature:

    But it is all good. Some years ago I would have probably written something exactly like UnbornTao.

    There is so much delusion in the spiritual marketplace that it is not wrong to sometimes "shake the tree" a bit and see what kind of fruit fall off (or what reactions come back). It is normally quite easy to tell which kind of tree has been shaken. 

    Water by the River

  8. Posted

    6 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

    @Water by the River Be honest. Sharing a cosmology means nothing as opposed to being grounded on personal experience.

    It is my personal experience. I can do the Eckhart Tolle thing and sit for hours on a park bench, with bliss flowing through my being by cutting off the self-contraction and resting in what is. Which I often do.

    I was doubting that when it started (it started before all insights into the nature of being were fully in place), doubting it just like you. And then it didn't stop, didn't get broken, even by really heavy blows. It has established its own momentum and force and continued ripening. Then later what I really am got confirmed by certain states/realizations beyond any possible doubt.

    If my character tries to do its old thing of grasping certain experiences (or avoiding others) and suffering while doing so, there is literally the choice to believe it or rest in Awakened Awareness (which brings its own bliss, and more that the sought for experience), and it is spotted very fast.

    Can my "character-thing" be improved? For sure it can. It has a long hang-over of self-contraction. But its ability to really reestablish the self-contraction (which blocks the flow of bliss/openness of Awakened Awareness states) with real belief in it and on an ongoing basis  is structurally gone.

    Well, I am not going to convince you just by writing. But not writing it is also not an option. Ken Wilber once wrote that the obligation one has if one sees is to tell, or else the soul gets very sick. I would have no problem leaving the forum behind. Although I enjoy writing, I got many nice things to besides, and wouldn't miss it. But it would be the wrong thing to do.

    So, I kindly ask you to be at least agnostic to what I write. Be also honest why you wrote "be honest". I have the feeling there is something mildly annoying you in my writing. 

    I can only invite you to try the path I walked, and described in many posts (Mahamudra/Dzogchen, mainly Pointing out the Great Way),  or any other path, and see for yourself. There is a risk of establishing self-limiting beliefs when there is too much doubt in the reachability of the fruits of the path. Literally every tradition confirms this as the potential of every sentient being.

    I will continue posting mainly these old texts (because they show the universality of these realizations over the centuries). Sometimes telling about "ones own" experience is ok, but if one does it all the time, it can easily become self-importance boosting, or can come across as such.

    Bon voyage

    Water by the River 

  9. Posted

    On 30.6.2023 at 7:47 PM, Javfly33 said:

    So much darkness in this forum unfortunately. I will be leaving this place soon if people don't start to open their hearts more and actually purify themselves. 

    Although it can appear tragic if some beings flunk some classes or are being led down the primerose path and have to repeat class.... the casting out of a Universe/Lila exactly as it is (including this forum) wouldn't happen if Spirit wouldn't want it.

    Everything is exactly as it should be. Yet everything evolves, growing in complexity and evolution, searching for a home it never left.

    A good drama needs light and dark, good and evil, night and day. Polarities and Duality need to exist for a Lila even getting started.

    In the long run, love and the path back home always wins. Because True Nature is True Nature, and Lila/ignorance only appear to be real. They are not. Every appearance is temporary.

    So I would appreciate you staying here, continuing and telling of your own unique path, which sounds quite interesting. There will always be darkness ignorance. Every being starts at square one, climbs the ladder as fast as possible to the point where it last stopped, and then continues. It is not a sin of the acorn that its not yet an oak.

    Water by the River

  10. Posted

    13 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

    Truth is what we're after. Feeling good shouldn't be the end goal. This may happen but is temporary. According to hearsay (;)), bliss may be inherent to one's nature.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda

    "Satcitananda (सच्चिदानन्द) is a compounded Sanskrit word consisting of "sat", "chit", and "ananda", all three considered as inseparable from the nature of ultimate reality called Brahman in Hinduism.[9] The different forms of spelling is driven by euphonic (sandhi) rules of Sanskrit, useful in different contexts.[9]

    sat (सत्):[10] In Sanskrit, sat means "being, existence", "real, actual", "true, good, right", or "that which really is, existence, essence, true being, really existent, good, true".[10][note 2]

    cit (चित्):[12] means "consciousness" or "spirit".[13][14][15]

    ānanda (आनन्द):[16] means "happiness, joy, bliss", "pure happiness, one of three attributes of Atman or Brahman in the Vedanta philosophy".[16] Loctefeld and other scholars translate ananda as "bliss""

     

     

    Shankara's Crest-Jewel of Discrimination

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekacūḍāmaṇi

    Now I shall tell you the nature of the Atman. If you realize it, you will be freed from the bonds of ignorance, and attain liberation.

    There is a self-existent Reality, which is the basis of our consciousness of ego. That Reality is the witness of the three states of our consciousness, and is distinct from the five bodily coverings.

    That Reality is the knower in all states of consciousness-waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. It is aware of the presence or absence of the mind and its functions. It is the Atman.

    That Reality sees everything by its own light. No one sees it. It gives intelligence to the mind and the intellect, but no one gives it light.

    That Reality pervades the universe, but no one penetrates it. It alone shines. The universe shines with its reflected light.

    Because of its presence, the body, senses, mind and intellect apply themselves to their respective functions, as though obeying its command.

    Its nature is eternal consciousness. It knows all things, from the sense of ego to the body itself. It is the knower of pleasure and pain and of the [ 62] sense-objects. It knows everything objectivelyjust as a man knows the objective existence of a jar.

    This is the Atman. the Supreme Being, the ancient. It never ceases to experience infinite joy. It is always the same. It is consciousness itself. The organs and vital energies function under its command. Here, within this body, in the pure mind, in the secret chamber of intelligence. in the infinite universe within the heart, the Atman shines in iu captivating splendour. like a noonday sun. By its light, the universe is revealed

    It is the knower of the activities of the mind and of the individual man. It is the witness of all the actions of the body, the sense-organs and the vital energy. It seems to be identified with all these, just as fire appears identified with an iron ball. But it neither acts nor is subject to the slightest change.

    The Atman is birthless and deathless. It neither grows nor decays. It is unchangeable, eternal. It does not dissolve when the body dissolves. Does the ether cease to exist when the jar that enclosed it is broken?

    The Atman is distinct from Maya, the primal cause, and from her effect, the universe. The nature of the Atman is pure consciousness. The Atman reveals this entire universe of mind and' matter. It cannot be defined. In and through the various states of consciousness-the waking. the dreaming and the sleeping-it maintains our unbroken awareness of identity. It manifests itself as the witness of the intelligence.

     

    Water by the River

  11. Posted

    On 30.6.2023 at 8:16 PM, Bazooka Jesus said:

    Lmao... you got someone specific in mind?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester

    "Jester's privilege

    Jester's privilege is the ability and right of a jester to talk and mock freely without being punished. As an acknowledgement of this right, the court jester had symbols denoting their status and protection under the law."

    Yet, you are working quite earnest on your own demise by self-transcedence...

    So, let's all drink to the death of a clown! May he be in permanent bliss and happy, Sat-Chit-Anada! And continue writing his usual hilarious posts ever after... :)

    Ain't no royal court like this lovely place here, with such magnificient royality, nobility, prophets, and even sometimes clergy, And with the most hilarious jester yours truly is aware of.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_court

    "In the largest courts, the royal households, many thousands of individuals constituted the court. These courtiers included the monarch or noble's camarilla and retinue, household, nobility, clergy, those with court appointments, bodyguards, and may also include emissaries from other kingdoms or visitors to the court. Foreign princes and foreign nobility in exile may also seek refuge at a court."

    So Namaste, let's all drink to the death of a clown, and bon voyage everyone!

    Clowning by the Selling Water by the RIver

  12. Posted

    37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

     it is total glory to be thrown tied to an anthill so that the ants can eat you alive for a week. if you can't see this, you don't understand the absolute 

    For the ants yes. For the one doing the tying it is not so good Karma, as it is for the one tied. Where do you get these examples from? Some mushroom was a bit kinky? ;)

    An Infinity of Infinities (Cantor) means: Even if Reality keeps exploring new adventures/realms/dreams forever, it doesn't need to imagine all crap... Although quite some crap probably is imagined, just look at our lovely little planet.

    38 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

    And of course we could be blissful 24/7, we should do, we have to really realize the absolute as deep as possible, all time. That is the purpose of human life. Anything else is nonsense. We have that potential. 

    Shhh. Much more important is the Alien Awakening of the day, outdated in a week. There is stuff in my fridge that stays fresh longer... 

    Selling Water by the River 

  13. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    Yes. All appearance/form is impermanent. Everything is appearance/form. What is Reality? What is constant?

    ...

    Beauty opens to the divine, and relaxes the contraction of the separate self perceiving the beauty for a moment.

    When aging, the youthful skin-deep beauty can be replaced by an even deeper beauty: A radiance of inherent love and openness, depending on the inner growth of the beautiful being. That radiance can have an even more heart-opening effect on others.

    A life well lived leads to a growing radiance of love/compassion and wisdom/awareness/peace. 

    In Tibetan Buddhism, it is these two properties (wisdom/awareness and love/compassion) that are the main imprints of the soul carried from life to life as Karma. All of that happens on the relative level, but still decides the future of the (relative level) individual being/perspective, this life and the following ones. Until one is permanently established in non-separation, Karma holds its grip.

    Water by the River

     

  14. Posted

     

    The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things. - Tao Te Ching

    The paths can be pointed to with concepts, and the Tao can also be pointed to (mostly via negative). But not more than pointing. At the end, one has to become the Tao. The caterpillar has to die for the butterfly to reveal itself.

    Or instead, one can go exploring the "ten thousand things", never realizing the Tao (and being It).

    The discussion we are having here is millenia old. Just one example of many: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng

    They have been resolved in all traditions (Buddhism, Christian Mysticism, Jewish Mysticism, Vedante, Yoga, all of them...), always in the same way. 

    Selling Water by the River

     

    PS: By the way, yours truly still writes long points full of technical pointers. So on this side here there is for sure no aversion to logic, concepts, thinking (on a Relative Truth level) and long technical texts. But at a certain point, shortly before the final deep realization (caterpillar -> butterfly), at the right state and view, all (!) of that pointing and all views (and any identity still left) have to stop for the Absolute to reveal itself, by itself, for itself. The Absolute Truth. 

    And maybe that has not happened with certain people claiming something different than what all (!) wisdom traditions have claimed before.

    None of this can be proven until Enlightenment. Neither to these certain people, nor to anybody else. So all that remains for the seeker to choose its path is the little voice in the heart. And the energy and emotions that the proponents of the different perspectives radiate. Bon voyage!

     

  15. Posted

    https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=bliss&author=Water by the River

    I know. What kind of idiot would post a search link to his own posts about the topic of bliss O.o :)

    And probably some won't like the following statements (because they implicitely nothing else than a call to action for practice/meditation of whatever form, because suffering can end): When resting in ones True Nature in certain awakened states, the psychological resistance (to what is) of suffering is gone. And these states can go from peak state, to plateau, to permanent. Bliss and love and compassion flow then from ones True Core. Every being, depending on its Karma, has at least to potential to do and realize that, this life or the next.

    At some point of the path one gets the choice to do exactly that, and one wouldn't contract again, because it becomes a choice.

    Sure one can get sad, or feel pain, hunger, whatever, but no resistance to it, no contraction, no closing down. "One" stays open, no resistance or psychological suffering added on top. It blows through ones Being like the wind.

    Adi Da called the separate self "self-contraction", which can be relaxed with love.

    Sellling Water by the River

     

    Ken Wilber on that:

    Ken Wilber, One Taste:

    "Monday, March 24. With the awakening of constant consciousness, you becomesomething of a divine schizophrenic, in the popular sense of “split-minded,” because you have access to both the Witnessand the ego. You are actually “whole-minded,” but it sounds like it’s split, because you are aware of the constant Witness or Spirit in you, and you are also perfectly aware of themovie of life, the ego and all its ups and downs. So you still feel pain and suffering and sorrow, but they can no longer convince you of their importance—you are no longer the victim of life, but its Witness.

    In fact, because you are no longer afraid of your feelings,you can engage them with much greater intensity. The movie of life becomes more vivid and vibrant, precisely because you are no longer grasping or avoiding it, and thus no longer trying to dull or dilute it. You no longer turn the volume down. You might even cry harder, laugh louder, jump higher. Choiceless awareness doesn’t mean you cease to feel; it means you feel fully, feel deeply, feel to infinity itself, and laugh and cry and love until it hurts. Life jumps right off the screen, and you are one with all of it, because you don’t recoil.

    If you are having a dream, and you think it’s real, it can get very scary. Say you are dreaming that you are tightropewalking across Niagara Falls. If you fall off, you plunge to your death. So you are walking very slowly, very carefully.Then suppose you start lucid dreaming, and you realize that it’s just a dream. What do you do? Become more cautious and careful? No, you start jumping up and down on the tightrope, you do flips, you bounce around, you have a ball—precisely because you know it isn’t real. When you realize it’s a dream, you can afford to play.

    The same thing happens when you realize that ordinary life is just a dream, just a movie, just a play. You don’t become more cautious, more timid, more reserved. You start jumping up and down and doing flips, precisely because it’sall a dream, it’s all pure Emptiness. You don’t feel less, you feel more—because you can afford to. You are no longer afraid of dying, and therefore you are not afraid of living.You become radical and wild, intense and vivid, shocking and silly. You let it all come pouring through, because it’s all your dream.

    Life then assumes its true intensity, its vivid luminosity, itsradical effervescence. Pain is more painful and happiness is happier; joy is more joyous and sorrow is even sadder. It all comes radiantly alive to the mirror-mind, the mind that doesn’t grasp or avoid, but simply witnesses the play, and therefore can afford to play, even as it watches.

    What would motivate you if you saw everything as the dream of your own highest Self? What would actually move you in this playful dream world? Everything in the dream is basically fun, at some deep level, except for this: when you see your friends suffering because they think the dream is real, you want to relieve their suffering, you want them to wake up, too. Watching them suffer is not fun. And so a deep and powerful compassion arises in the heart of the awakened ones, and they seek, above all else, to awaken others—and thus relieve them from the sorrow and the pity,the torment and the pain, the terror and the anguish that comes from taking with dreadful seriousness the passing dream of life.

    So you are a divine schizophrenic, you are “split-minded” in the sense that you are simultaneously in touch with both the pure Witness and the world of the ego-film. But that really means you are actually “whole-minded,” because these two worlds are really not-two. The ego is just the dream of the Witness, the film that the Witness creates out of its own infinite plenitude, simply so it will have something to watch at the movies.

    At that point the entire play arises within your own constant consciousness. There is no inside and no outside, no in here versus out there. The nondual universe of One Taste arises as a spontaneous gesture of your own true nature. You can taste the sun and swallow the moon, and centuries fit in the palm of your hand. The pure I-I, the greatI AMness, breathes to infinity and creates a Kosmos as the Song of its very Self, and oceans of compassion fall as tears from your very own Original Face.

    Last night I saw the reflection of the moon in a cool clear crystal pond, and nothing else happened."

     

     

     

  16. Posted

    Hm, how about doing BOTH? Practicing transcendence/meditation AND doing shadow work? Considering both as important, because shadow work & growing up and speeds up waking up?

    • No transcendence/meditation and no shadow work: Nightmare
    • Only shadow work & working on good Karma, No transcendence/meditation: with a bit of luck a quite happy dream with a normal dose of suffering. But no Enlightenment normally.
    • Only transcendence/meditation: Anything from enlightened not so cool freak-show to (usually) no Enlightenment at all (built in safety mechanisms of reality. We don't need enlightened jerks).
    • transcendence/meditation + shadow work: anything from quite happy dream to very happy waking up

    It is in no way either or. Integral is doing both. And yours truly believes that nearly everybody can benefit from some shadow work.

    Selling Water by the RIver

  17. Posted

    8 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

    thank you for addressing my questions. In your last paragraph when you say "love is what throws it all out and pulls it all back", is that what's known to us as "Gravity"?

    It is more metaphorical.

    Nothing can permanently ignore what it really is, so the illusion of separation ends (even if it takes many lives) at some point ("pulls it all back"). Gravity is just a physical force, affecting matter. The other dynamic if "pulls it back" is working a few "manifestation-dynamics-levels" higher.

    Water by the River

  18. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

    1. What is being awakened God or the Ego.

    • Infinite Consciousness/Reality (I don't use God though technically correct because it creates more misunderstandings in this context than it solves. Like blowing up the Ego to God-sized dimensions, which the exactly opposite route than transcending the separate self/Ego) is awake throughout. IT is aware, and is what you really are.
      • "It" (True You) is nothing specific (despite containg/being everything), but empty Awareness. Totally empty/nothing, but aware, and containing all form. But arising in it is what you think yourself to be right now (I-thoughts and I-feelings), that you don't see/view fast enough to transcend. You see "through" them, like coloured lenses.
    • These lenses of perceptions (I-thoughts and I-feelings, separate-self arisings, making you feel and think you are a body or mind WITHIN Reality, but somehow separate from the boundless Reality) are what cloud your understanding of the Nature of Infinite Consciousness/Reality.
    • When you learn to view (and cut) these arisings fast enough (long training process normally), awakened or nondual states can appear. Then the locatedness of "you" drops, making You the whole field. And other effects (infinite, eternal/always here, empty/impersonal). 
    • The three points above are at least in my perspective more useful to describe the process (than asking what wakes up, God or Ego), because:
      • God or Infinite Consciousness doesn't awake. It is always awake/aware, can't be different.
      • The Ego doesn't really exist (EXist=stand out from Raelity). So it can't wake up. It the sum/Gestalt of the appearance of I-thoughts, I-feelings that arise in True You. Once your mindstream/perspective awakenes, these arisings are no longer believed and (if wanted) totally cut off. Your Ego/character becomes literally something like moskito buzzing around in you. And if the character becomes annoying/suffering, you can "chase" it away like an annoying insect. The volume/believeability of its voice goes to "lower than 5%" of what is was before.
        • That is just a pointer. It can only be really understood what it happens. The tools you use to imagine that state (necessarily including I-thoughts)  are those that prevent the awakend state in which you could understand it. So the path is Meditation,  Trekchö/Cut-Off every thought, Neti Neti, get empty, change to awakened states. And let these states refine and empty your Identity towards Truth.
    53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

    2. If I'm one with everything and everyone, and there's no distinction between me and a tree because that's just a distinction the mind created, and the false sense of self recognizes this, why do I need to get enlightened or awakened to that fact if I can intellectually understand this and live my life accordingly. 

    Because what clouds your mindstream, what you think you are, the I-feelings and I-thoughts, are not what you really are. You are much more. But you can only authentically say that when you are in awakened states. Before having stabilized these nondual states, thinking you are everything is just wishful thinking. It doesn't end suffering.

    53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

    3. I understand enlightenment is a stripping of all beliefs, ideologies concepts etc. and everything the ego believes itself to be, and is our true nature, why can't I just empty myself of all those concepts and become enlightened. I'm using the word "I" for the sake of clarity here.

    Because it is not a change of thinking/concepts. It is not deciding or believing to no longer belief concepts (That "stripping" would be more concepts). it is learning to cut any arising concept/belief/I-thought/I-feeling FAST enough so that your state changes to awakened and nondual states. Thinking to want to no longer belief or stripping of beliefs/ideologies is itself a thought process, not the cutting of all thought arisings including that one.

    These are very specific states that have counterparts in the bodily energies for example. Enlightenment is a state shift towards nondual, boundless, and empty/impersonal (at least if there is intention for cutting the mindstream if wanted, for example for getting the bliss of the primordial Consciousness). At other times, the character can do its thing. But the body-mind has become an object doing its thing within YOU, Reality itself.

    53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

    4. Is the end of suffering the only "benefit" to acquiring the enlightenment state; and I'm not saying the pursuit to enlightenment should have any benefits because that suggests there's an "I" to gain something, but I notice a lot of "end of suffering" statements when explaining what enlightenment is. 

    (1) If it wouldn't remove suffering, what should make you stay in these enlightened states? You would continue grasping and searching for evermore experiences, like every unenlighened being.

    (2) Also, you will know the nature of Absolute Reality beyond any doubt. That includes what You are, what Reality is, what every arising/form/phemenon is in its essence, and that you are immortal. And nothing else can be anything different than THAT. Since anything there could be, in any dimension or realm, would just be more "form" or content arisings within Infinite Consciousness.

    But what would (2) be worth if you still suffer? You would search and grasp for some other experiences... Which obviously the enlightened ones stopped doing. All of them, at all times. They didn't grasp for experiences, and didn't suffer when they didn't get certain experiences. They for sure had preferences, could feel pain, but they didn't grasp or "psychologically-suffering-wise" resist what is.

    She who is centered in the Tao can go where she wishes, without danger. She perceives the universal harmony, even amid great pain, because she has found peace in her heart. - Tao Te Ching

    53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

    5. If everything is perfect and there's an intelligent design at play here, and God put itself to sleep so it can awaken to itself, why do we need to pursue enlightenment and to recognize there's no Self if it's part of God's plan to trick itself into being human so it can experience itself through the ego. Is that part of the plan, to see if it can awaken to itself. If so, then what, and if not, why doesn't it just stay unenlightened to have the experience.

    Since every separate being (or better: perspective) is at its essence Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself, every mindstream will end up enlightened.

    The game is to cast the formless out into form, explore the infinities of infinities that can be manifested (God will never run out of these), and come back home. It is the nature of Reality. It is apparently what Reality does. 

    Love is what throws it all out, and pulls it all back, and its also the essence of every form. That btw. is not fancy mental musings, but actual Reality, potentially directly experienceable by every(!) being in certain awakened states.

    Water by the River

     

    PS:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film)

    "During the evacuation, Donnelly expresses his love for Banks. They talk about life choices and whether he would change them if he could see the future. Banks knows that she will agree to have a child with him despite knowing their fate: that Hannah will die from an incurable disease and Donnelly will leave them both after she reveals that she knew this."

     

     

  20. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    33 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

    I feel this is forgotten very easily. Some people here seem to be very deep about realisations, enlightment, reality, etc... but they still accept part of suffering as normal. This is what tells you, they haven't really broken through.

    Yes. Let us assume a few things as true (and see if they resonate):

    • (1) that Reality ultimately is "good" (and not evil) and wants every being to finally realize its True Being.
    • (2) Which (realizing True Being) luckily is the same as peace/bliss/happiness.
    • (3) What is the ONLY way to ensure that? Suffering until realizing Ones True Being. At least suffering from time to time, to make beings keep searching and growing...
      • Only Alternative to that is: happy ever after not knowing or realizing what one really is, or what Reality is. Forever. Sounds rather cruel to me....

    It is some kind of mathematical-logical formula if we just work with these three assumptions (that is why I wrote if they resonate). If we assume that these three points (1) (2) (3) are true, there has to be sometimes suffering until Full Realization happens.

    And only the final thing (Full Realization, Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment) delivers the peace of the transcedence of suffering.

    And its not bleak, empty, dead, nothing, or "personal minus". It is the Fullness of Reality, personal/character (plus) minus separation. The celebration of manifestation, but without attachment. The character then can grow to its full potential, fear gone, joy and celebration here and now.

    And the even better news is: One only illusory "leaving" ones True Nature and being separate. No"one" ever could really be separate. That is not possible in an Infinite Totality. It can only appear as such. The ILLUSION-arising of the separate-self within Oneself (True Self).

    So THAT is the ultimate criteria or compass if there is one: Suffering or not. Separate-Self Contraction (and Illusion/Ignorance) or not.

    An imaginary trip back home, after casting Oneself out into manifesting Infinite Realms of form and manifestation.

    Bon Voyage & lets don't forget to celebrate the ride back home.

    And lets never declare a stage as end-point that contains suffering. It only prolongs the way back home, until that illusion-mindset is also broken by suffering.

     

    Selling Water by the River

     

    She who is centered in the Tao can go where she wishes, without danger. She perceives the universal harmony, even amid great pain, because she has found peace in her heart.

    Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself.

    Approach it and there is no beginning; follow it and there is no end. You can’t know it, but you can be it, at ease in your own life. Just realize where you come from: this is the essence of wisdom

    - Tao Te Ching

  21. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    49 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

    Can someone on this thread please tell me what it REALLY means to be awake and the difference between being awake and being enlightened. 

    Well, BazookaJesus is the most AWAKE, and Nobody is enlightened.

    Ok, enough kidding. 

    Awakening: Basically, you can experience 95% of Nonduality/Mystical Experiences with a center/separate-self still not fully seen through/transcended. And that is what prevents fully realizing or Being Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness itself. You definitely can have Unity/Nonduality Experiences with some kind of separate-self (although often quite empty, ego/persona quite transcended) still well & alive.

    Full Enlightenment: When these last remnants of the separate self disfiguring True Nonduality (or ones True Nature of Infinite Reality itself) are seen through, transcended, suffering ends and grasping for experiences/insights/understandings end. Impersonal centerless Empty Boundless Eternal Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That which you and every being already is right now, can never not be, but are (maybe) not fully aware of.

    Semantic Challenge: Often Enlightenments and Awakenings are equated and/or confused.

    But most often, Enlightenment is considered an "end-state", an end of suffering. Understanding of relative stuff and exploration & the adventure of course can continue. But beyond Full Enlightenment there is only more relative stuff (form) to explore. The Absolute Reality has been understood or realized.

    • Suffering is dramatically(!) reduced and the potential of Ones True Nature to fully end suffering is understood and takes over
    • understanding/being what One really is is the hallmark of Full Enlightenment.

     

    More on the topic:

    And confusing Awakening and (Full) Enlightenment is confusing the road to more high-level-dreams (with some necessary illusion/ignorance/suffering) with the road to the Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment, or the end of suffering.

    All has its time and place, and the point of the ride is the ride. But at some point, comming home is also wonderful.

    Beautiful Book: Coming Home: The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions, Lex Hixon

    Bon Voyage

    Water by the River

  22. Posted

    1 hour ago, Moksha said:

    Shhh, you're ruining the entertainment. How are we supposed to know which gladiator to cheer for when all of them lay down their swords and sink into the sand?

    Well, I don't have the worry that humanity will run out of gladiators any time soon.

    But some of the smarter gladiators could start thinking of themselves as Manjushri...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manjushri

    "Mañjuśrī is depicted as a male bodhisattva wielding a flaming sword in his right hand, representing the realization of transcendent wisdom which cuts down ignorance and duality."

    800px-WLA_ima_Manjusri.jpg

    ... and the show will go on.

    And Maya will smile at us all. And a few could even smile back and not look serious at all. :) 

    And maybe the ones smiling and having fun are or were candidates of Mañjuśrī-Seppuku? 

    Well, if there weren't a show like that already running... One (without a second) ought imagine one....  

     

    Water by the River

  23. Posted

    6 hours ago, Moksha said:

    Any sense of specialness, either as a teacher or as a follower, is a sure sign that you aren't awake. Realizing the awareness that underlies every appearance dissolves the idea of being a person, let alone the idea of being the most awake person on the planet.

    Specialness is the illusion of separation. People are special, but reality is not.

    Very true. Any sign of specialness and self-importance is a sure and perfect sign that somebody is not resting in True Nature. Self-Importance is among Mayas most seductive tricks. 

    And its even totally logical: If one deeply identifies with being all of Infinite Reality, how could one part of Reality/Oneself be more "self"-important or special than another part? Where is then the "other" one could superior to, special to, or self-important towards to?

    Selling Water by the River 

     

    @Bazooka Jesus : And that is why Bazooka Jesus is the most awake, because such a "I am the most...."- post has to made with the biggest smile possible. On which, so far, Bazooka has perfectly succeeded.