[Awakening vs Self-development]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All stages are actually just states. There exists nothing but states of consciousness. Consciousness is an infinite state machine.

That is true.

Yet a stage can be defined as a structure, which means a certain probability distribution of states, which means that a certain states appears more often or pre-dominantly, or in a certain structure. For that, see Chaos Theory and Structuralism.

If there is a pattern/probability distribution to it (like certain states most of the time), it can be called a stage. Yet, its not a "hard" thing where only one state can appear. There is also appearance of "higher", "lower" or just other states (or configurations of the system, see Chaos theory) possible, and yet an overall structure to the probability distribution of the states can be soon.

When a certain developmental order of these structures/stages of state-probability-distributions can be seen, the stages align across a development structure, or ladder of stages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Those are correct but comprehension of God goes so much deeper. It's a matter of depth.

Buddhists are not wrong. There's just more that's missing.

There exists a whole dimension of transhuman consciousness. Buddhism is all still within the domain of the human.

I agree with that.

And all of these "other dimensions of transhuman consciousness" also exist and appear WITHIN Infinite Absolute Reality, with is "essence" "made out of" that besides which nothing else exists: Infinite Absolute Reality. Ex-ist = stand out from. Or Appearance. Or imagined. 

And I assume it is not just a whole dimension of transhuman consciousness, but an Infinity of them, n+1.

So it probably won't get boring anytime soon.

And why not visit and explore some of them.

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River Your True Nature is God. Which is not the same thing as Emptiness, nor nonduality, nor Buddhism.

Agreed.

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The real question you should be asking is, What is God?

Well, let me think. 

Since it says in your signature its already you, it can not be me. 

 

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

"Alien Consciousness is completely beyond everything those Buddhists understand or have ever achieved."

I only say that because I've never encountered a human spiritual teacher who teaches it. It's unheard of. Which is why I am vocal about it. Why should I be vocal about Buddhism when everyone already knows about it? The point of talking, for me, is to say new things. Not to rehash old ground.

Quote

Yet, I consider Full Enlightenment becoming that Ultimate Reality as a Deep Identity level shift, with no more filters of the separate-self not seen through or covering that Realization/Deep Identity Level shift, no more filter on any of these Awakenings/Enlightenments. True Self, because every being is that already, with some illusion-clouds on top. Not projecting Absolute Reality on separate-self remains, but pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. And since that brings bliss and liberation in daily life. I consider it highly valueable.

I agree that's highly valuable.

Quote

Specifically: Placing the importance/value of Alien Consciousness on the same level as striving for Full Enlightenment, i feel fine with that. As long as the Alien Consciousness doesn't drag home some less-than-healthy consequences.

From the perspective of understanding Consciousness -- which is my highest concern -- unhealthy consequences are irrelevant.

However, I am not oblivious to unhealthy consequences and of course I would like to minimize those for my followers.

Quote

Placing anything higher as the striving for Full Enlightenment is in my perspective choosing suffering, which is not a permanently sustainable strategy.

I do place understanding of reality above the transcending of suffering. That's a core feature of my style of spirituality. Understanding above everything else.

Everyone is free to pursue their own spiritual priorities. I have chosen mine and for it I have paid serious costs which you guys don't even know about. I have permanent scars and damage across my body from my pursuit of the highest understanding. And maybe one day it will kill me. If you understood the levels of danger I have toyed with, you would be horrified. You guys only know half of what I've done to gain my understanding.

Yes, you are a pioneer, and that is your Karma. Or if one doesn't like the word Karma, your tendencies and motivations for this life. Which is absolutely wonderful.

I appreciate the wisdom in your post above. Not every being can strive in this life for climbing the peaks of the Multiverse of Realities. Just the same as not everyone will climb Mount Everest in this life.  Yet, even the hobby-mountaneers can get very blissful on their path, and will enjoy the tales and views the pioneers will bring along from the Mount Everests of this Reality.

And if the the Mount-Everest-Pioneers don't recommend the Mount-Everest as best & most valueable endevour in this life, not more than necessary hobby-mountaneers will suffer and possible fall trying to climb Mount Everest. The nature and inherent bliss of Absolute Reality can also be realized in the valley.

Water by the River

PS: Nisargadatta once said to Steven Wolinsky: You have won the grace of your True Nature. I assume you have done the same as pioneer, and you deserve the healing & love that Reality holds for all its beings. Get well soon. 

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River

Sounds super-technical. But it's interesting. Thanks for explaining.

It is super-technical. Like the Eskimo have hundreds of words for snow, the Tibetans have hundreds of different technical terms for meditation-exerpiences, stages and views.

Zen is very anti-intellectual (and correct in so far that being too conceptual can also be a trap), but I always found that a bit... annoying. Until I got what they point to. Then that got nice again. Frog pond plop.

For me it made intuitive sense that a more complex and sophisticated meditation-system would be faster, but also more difficult to learn & explain. Like the axe and the forest-harvester-example.

The less complex methods are more robust (do it long enough and it will work, but are also boring & annoying "die on the pillow"), while the more complex methods get pleasant faster ("killing me softly on&off the pillow).

And we all know if the axes or forest-harvesters are used nowadays. So I see the future more in systems like Mahamudra & Dzogchen. 

So lets see how it all develops...

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River ok, then full enlightenment is the complete dissolution of individuality and identification with absolute reality without limit. and according to you that eliminates suffering. let's see, you give great importance to thought, and you focus the process of enlightenment on mastering and understanding the source of thought. Maybe it's necessary without psychedelics. the source of thought is obvious: reality, like everything else. it is not necessary to stop the thought but to see through it, understanding what the thought is, and paying no attention to it. dissolve individuality completely and identify with infinity, ok, let's call it enlightenment. It is not the end of the matter, it is the beginning.

Allow me some further musings on the topic.

In stage 3 Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual), Nonduality starts showing up. But Nonduality is not Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, because one can be in nondual Unity and still think that one is an "enlightened person", or any other crappy concept or self-identity for that matter.

The ripening of Nonduality goes from stage 3 Yoga of One Taste to stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. Nonmeditation, because the meditation has become so automized that the need for any separate-self agency feeling doing anything is no longer necessary and is discarded and also cut off.

And then one is accident-prone to the possible accident of Enlightenment, Impersonal Infinite Consciousness realizing itself. At that stage, doing anything is just creating another cloud hiding the sun of ones true being, because doing anything would be another thougt/feeling-movement in Infinite Consciousness/Mind/Reality.

And psychedelics are very nice for helping the whole process, and for exploring the Multiverse and other interesting stuff. But for transcending the last subtle separate-self-identity-arisings (subtle separate-self thoughts and feelings), and cutting off the sometimes arisings-non-bliss-feeling-bad-arisings (in other words: suffering)  that are a part of the separate-self-package, I have yet to see one case (just a single one would be very interesting) where that has been done mainly on a stable basis/outcome in daily life with only psychedelics.

 

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Before to this point you are insane and your life is a nightmare. after this point, freedom begins, you flow and understand. but the reality of what you are is unlimited, as you will perceive if you have really transcended the limits, then you will see the need to explore, to go deeper. Do you understand the pattern of existence that it means to be a human? the layers of code that make up this experience, what are they? everything opens, unfolds, and psychedelics are the key. psychedelics are a key into the code that this experience is. They are nothing foreign to you, they are you. and you don't use them? impossible. Limited.

That can be very well had with meditation practice.

Meditation:

Actually, from all I have seen, getting rid of all the clouds of the separate-self takes a long time in certain states (boundless, timeless infinite consciousness, nondual and the separate-self already nothing but a feeling of "individuality", some "nothing" watching the nondual totality), 100s of hours. Maybe 1000s. For most practitioners at least, including yours truly. On the stage 3 and 4 of the stages of Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation alone (and these are not boring or annoying sitting meditation hours by then, but blissful and wonderful hours in daily life in something called Post-Samadhi-Meditation (or off the pillow meditation) in the book).

And in that 100s or 1000s of hours subtle separtate-self identities/arisings get spotted, seen (subject->object), transcended and cut off. And I can assure you, oh boy, these are sometimes really sneaky and subtle. When all of that is transcended, the sudden Deep Identity Shift/Understanding can happen. "Yes, there is nothing else than THAT, and "my" essence is that, and what "I" thought I was was just a movement/arising of thoughts/feelings/centers within THAT. My True Being is all of Reality. But nothing specific. No separate-anything. The whole enchilada without center and core". But its not a elaborated thinking. It is Infinite Consciousness UNDERSTANDING/REALIZING itself, and there is nothing else than THAT, never possibly could be. The understanding in thought-form gets elaborated LATER, after Infinite Consciousness/Reality has understood itself, the nature of the world and its own nature (nondual).

Psychedelics:

bring a lot and strong forms of the Awakened States (nondual, infinite, mere appearance, and a lot more). States that one would only get by meditation if already very empty, or the separate-self-arising (thought/feeling)flow already cut a lot. So the states are very awake/nondual/infinite, but the separate-self-arisings is still colouring the experience. Although they can also be very subtle/empty at that state.

And that is my little theory that explains all phenomena and examples I have seen so far: There is just not enough time and deeply cut-off/transcended separate-self-arisings in psychedelic states to cause that deep Identity-Level Shift of Full Enlightenment. And often, and maybe even much more problematic than the point just mentioned, there is a lot of nonduality/Unity in psychedelic states but a lot of separate-self-feelings/identites/... still left. Not a pure and impersonal Nonduality/Unity, but rather a Unity loaded with not-so-impersonal-stuff. And that doesn't fully count as these 100s or 1000s hours mentioned above, because they may be not so flashy consciousness/awakened, but are already quite nondual/Unity and very very impersonal/empty/nearly-no-separate-self still left. Only last fragments, being dissolved as time goes on.

Short form:

Meditation: Unity/Nonduality/Awakened States only when very large parts of separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) are already gone/transcended
Psychedelics: Lots of Unity/Nondual/Awakened States EVEN with separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) in large parts not seen trough, even with the help of the psychedelic.

Full Enlightenment: And for the sudden Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment the separate-self-arisings/thoughts/feelings need to be ALL seen through/Transcended/cut off (which at the same time is also a huge boost of Nonduality/Awakenings, making the whole field an infinite nondual groundless mere appearance field hovering within ones timeless true always here Being, and Infinite Awareness Space with separate-self-center/Individuality fully gone. Just THIS).

In Full Enlightenment, there is no agent left that is still believed, no center. So one IS Reality itself. And literally everything that could ever appear is a manifested/imagined arising/appearance, imagined by "the" Infinite Mind/Consciousness. And that "Mind", or Reality, dreams and is deluded until "It" realized there is only itself, watching itself, fooling and believing itself in endless appearances.
If there is "someone", or arisings of a "you" that thinks "it" is enlightened: Welcome, that is another illusion-layer (as Leo correctly points out). It is maybe an Enlightenment (Nondual Unity with the Infinite Void), but not Full Enlightenment.

And for the impersonal aspect: Sounds horrible, in practice its wonderful: One is this life "oneself", next life maybe life something else completely: Different personality, different body, Human, Alien, whatever. Impersonal Consciousness open up exactly that. Like dreaming being someone/something else at night.

But the price of transcending this specific bodymind has to be paid. And since its only an illusion, only has some fear-defense-mechanism BEFORE the Gateless Gate of waking up to ones True Identity, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, or Reality itself.

Water by the River

 

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River In your long post your explained some very elaborate techniques for taming thought. That's sorta your whole method.

My question to you is: Why make it so complicated? Why not just use something like the noting/labeling method for monitoring your thoughts? Seems to me like this would achieve the same thing with one simple method. I'm talking about something like Shinzen Young's method.

How is your method superior to the Shinzen Young method?

For that, please check the book. Really, it would be worth it.

Noting and labeling is waaay to slow, among other things. If you hit a baseball, and would have to note/label what you are doing, that would take way too long, multiple tenths-of-a-second up to seconds. The ball would be long gone. To get good, one has to hit the ball without any thinking.

And to learn to do that really well, one gets coached for every miniature-movement of pitching, and how that grows and develops. Zen and noting/labeling is like: Just hit the ball. And even if you hit the ball, how to hit it really far? Or how to hit all balls (even subtle separate-self thoughts/feelings). Like, how to induce really Awakened/Nondual States? Because that happens only with a high speed cutoff of all (even the subtle separate-self-arisings/thoughts/feelings) That needs a good coaching system.

Noting and labeling is still thinking, and thinking is way too slow. Like, really way to slow. A very important aspect in my description-post was: High-Speed Search into the nature and emergence of concepts (or rather, into the unfindability of anything solid in their nature, or finding consciousness/empty Awareness/Reality/Suchness in each and every thought arising, and into the temporal phenomenology of their appearnce). To first realize what that nature of thoughts/concepts is, the book needs quite some time. And only realizing that nature correctly, fast enough and how it emerges temporally, is what actually dissolves the thought fast enough, without causing any other fast/subtle thoughts/feelings in its wake. The mindstream is really tricky here, really fast and subtle hard to spot separate-self thoughts, feelings and sensations.

So how is this High Speed Search/Cut Off task done, for example at a certain stage: see the quote below. The time-aspect of emergence, staying, disappearing of thoughts is examined. NOT the content, but the temporal structure. That is totally different than noting & labeling. Noting & Labeling is thought-based, content-based, not structure based how it all emerges in the mindstream from a temporal perspective.

And that temporal thought-emerging process then changes with practice dramatically.

Also, I just scratched the surface of the stages and methods.

What most meditation-methods do is like: Here is New York, there is LA, drive west. What Mahamudra does is give you a map for each interstate-crossing. Literally. And just driving west normally ends in a cul-de-sac, meditation gets impossible boring or needs endless will, because one sees zero progress and no changes.

I had to read that book (the important passages 10-20 times) to get it, and had to align it with my ongoing practice-experience. It needs some meditation-experiences to understand what the different stages are talking about. Meditation experience generates new meditation-experience-referents, with which gets worked then in the next stages.

I can not cut down a 600 page book into short posts, just give some little previews and differences of what is innovative in this system and not found somewhere else in other systems.

Selling Water by the River

 

"PS: To give you just a small taste of the level of technical precission of the stage description of what happens. And what the meditators of most other systems only learn coincidentally and as unconsciousness competence (they wouldn't be able to tell WHAT precicly they do, or changed doing). And that is just one change of many on the path of that system:

The Mind-Moments mentioned in the quote below can be for example thougt-arising-events.

Brown, Pointing out the Great Way, chapter Skill of Reckognition:

"At this stage of meditation the practitioner is likely to experience a series of shifts in the way events seem to arise and pass away in the mental continuum, as if the temporal organization of events itself were changing. Four such rearrangements occur in stages:

(1) Awareness of the initial phase of arising only. Mind-moments arise so rapidly that one appears to arise just as the previous one ceases. The practitioner is aware of only the moment events arise and is not aware of their duration or cessation. This awareness of the immediate arising is expressed in Pema Karpds phrase "at the moment it is born," as well as in Tashi Namgyel's phrase "happens to arise."

(2) The tripartite unit of arising, staying, and ceasing (byung, gnas, song). During the next stage the practitioner notices not only the initial moment of arising (byung) but also some discernible duration (gnas; literally, "staying") of the event, followed by its cessation (song). The entire unit—arising, staying, ceasing—constitutes a single discrete mental event, irrespective of the category of mental content.

(3 )At the next stage, the practitioner experiences another shift in temporal experience, characterized by awareness of only moment-by-moment arising and passing away (skye 'gag). Mind-moments are experienced to be very short-lived without much discernible duration. They arise and pass very quickly. Tashi Namgyel calls this stage "momentary arising" (thol ba).

[Comment from me: and here at (3) the magic can start: Thought arising get faster and faster when one looks at the temporal structure of their emergence and into their essence/nature, but they are cut off immediately (without much descernible duration). It takes a long time to get there.

When at that stage, thoughts that normally elaborate over several seconds show up at once, one "knows" their full content before they even elaborate in the mindstream over several seconds, and can cut them off immedeately.

That gives a complete new understanding how the mind works at that high-speed-level, and is the beginning of Awakening if cut-off in sufficient speed so that the NO thoughts elaborate but just emerge as capsules. Then, they start to stop emerging for some time. And if they emerge, they are different. It also starts to show Infinite Consciousness as timeless always here reality, Existence itself. Not as idea, but as experience]. And that skill then gets developed over several more stages.]

(4) During the final stage the practitioner comes to realize that the idea that discrete events arise and pass over time is itself a mere construct of the ordinary mind. All distinctions concerning the seeming temporal unfolding of mental events are found to be empty, and the practitioner develops a new realization of the mind's real nature as always here (skye med). The first three experienced rearrangements in the temporal unfolding of the mental events pertain to the skill exercises, while the fourth pertains to the subsequent yoga of unelaboration. [Outcome is that each and any thought-arising can be cut, or alternatively watched in a lucid manner] Although the three parts of the skill meditation are said to be experienced in stages (rim pa), this distinction is not always explicit since the actual root-text instructions are typically given in a combined form."

And the insight described here is the High-Speed-Cut-Off Searchtask into the Unfindability of the essence of thoughts, which then evaporate. And also looking closely HOW thought emerge, stay, cease, and what is always right here. That boosts Awakened/nondual States if done correctly. And also gives the first intuition of the always here, or eternal/immortal nature of consciousness/reality, not as idea, but as direct understanding.

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Water by the River

The question would be: Are you completely free of Buddhism and cite it as an interesting curiosity after having those realizations yourself, or is your mind subtly attached to it? the mind is very reluctant to let go. Are you able to really open up to reality, without any expectations? So you can have the hobby of reading Buddhism or whatever and contrasting it, but if Buddhism conditions your mind, then it's toxic.

Yes, I agree.

I do know when I look what I have read/studied/evaluated that I am not romantically in love with Buddhism and project a lot of stuff on it (which normally goes along being romantically in love with something).

I highly like, and consider at similiar impact on my path and practice:

• Nisargadatta
• Jac O'Keffee
• Francis Lucille
• Steven Wolinsky
• Coming Home, Lex Hixon (pretty much all traditions covered)
• Wilber (also at home and fine with all traditions)
• and quite a lot more...

And for me, "Buddhism" is so diversified that I consider at least three separate branches that are pretty much totally different meditation system, and also have pretty much very different philosophical approaches to point to the Absolute.

• Theravada
• Zen
• Tibetan Buddhism (especially Mahamudra and Dzogchen)

And that is just for the broad diversions, there are and have been endless sub-schools. For example see : "https://www.amazon.de/Mahayana-Buddhism-Doctrinal-Foundations-Religious/dp/0415356539".

And Buddhism is not only a spiritual meditation system, but also a religion, guiding millions of souls that are "not there yet" to go fully for transcendence& (meditation) practice, and yet do have a certain "soul-growth-task" in this life also, and deserve a good spiritual/value-map/system for that also. 

Honestly, I always tend to smile internally when somebody calls me Buddhist. Like being pointed to the beautiful love affair of a long time ago. But I guess it looks so from the outside the way I mostly write about Buddhist meditation system.

I do have my preferences concerning actual meditation systems (and not just philosophical schools/systems), and I have never seen anything in sophistication quite like the Mahamudra/Dzogchen-system. And even that benefits strongly from adding stuff from the teachers/sources mentioned above at certain stages of the practice.

In 100-200 years we will probably have something what John Churchill calls a "Planetery Dharma", uniting and integrating all efficient practices. Doing double-blind studies of what works and how fast. Combining that with psychedelics. Using new technical terms that are not culturally loaden, and removing all the mythic and cultural baggage. Until then, I try to be as integral as possible, and look for signs of the most efficients systems/practices that there are.

And what is also going on is the exploration of a truly Infinite Multiverse and Reality. What started with endeavours like the Supreme Array Sutra ( https://www.psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz ) and similiar stuff is now truly starting to take off our days. For everyone so inclined, see Jaques Vallee, Jürgen Ziewe, Andrew Gallimore, Rick Strassman and many more. And of course the magnificent exploration going on right here!

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

10 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Well they aren't going to suffer seeing short posts. 

I didn't mean any meanness to the user @Water by the River. I myself follow buddhism. And I'm grateful he talks about it here. Because Leo scoffs at Buddhist content calling it Buddhist rat and all. So it's refreshing to see someone having the balls to share content I'm interested in. I would like to pm you some time @Water by the Riverif you don't mind.

 

Thanks. And sure, PM anytime.

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River Thank you for the effort and thought you put into your posts and explanations of Buddhism.

There's some good stuff in what you quotes. And I see what is being gotten at there. There's definitely value to that.

However, I still insist that the God-Realization I speak of is beyond that and cannot be attained via those methods. Although I do not dismiss that those attainments you mention are very good and valuable.

Alien Consciousness is completely beyond everything those Buddhists understand or have ever achieved.

I agree that some Awakenings can't be had without psychedelics. And that what you call Alien Consciousness is for sure cutting edge. And I do consider you a pioneer, and have read so far most of what you wrote, and watched most of your videos.

"Alien Consciousness is completely beyond everything those Buddhists understand or have ever achieved."

That I don't know, since I don't know what every Buddhist has achieved. But it is very well possible what you write, since they didn't have 5-MeO and other stuff. They had psychedelics [ Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana ], but not all what is available now, and not pure. But some exploration they did: https://www.psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz , 

Yet, I consider Full Enlightenment becoming that Ultimate Reality as a Deep Identity level shift, with no more filters of the separate-self not seen through or covering that Realization/Deep Identity Level shift, no more filter on any of these Awakenings/Enlightenments. True Self, because every being is that already, with some illusion-clouds on top. Not projecting Absolute Reality on separate-self remains, but pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. And since that brings bliss and liberation in daily life. I consider it highly valueable. Summum Bonum [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summum_bonum ]

So lets continue exploring and awakening to ever higher, larger and more encompassing [Alien] perspectives in Indras Net of Reality, since that is one of the reasons why we are, and one of the reasons God is playing that game/Lila. I just propose doing that from a consideration of the basis of the Summum Bonum mentioned above. 

Considering that suffering = continued search for further experiences/understandings/realization and end of suffering = resting in ones Deep True Identity as  Reality itself, there is a "little" pointer given by Reality via suffering on that issue.

Specifically: Placing the importance/value of Alien Consciousness on the same level as striving for Full Enlightenment, i feel fine with that. As long as the Alien Consciousness doesn't drag home some less-than-healthy consequences. Why? Because the paths for both goals go towards more Consciousness, not less. They run parallel, or at least normally not opposed if one doesn't get lost in these Alien Awakenings. Which probably can be avoided.

Placing anything higher as the striving for Full Enlightenment is in my perspective choosing suffering, which is not a permanently sustainable strategy. That is the only reason why I am writing all of this. Besides that, I am a big fan Leo! The world needs more people like you. The more pioneers we have, the faster the Wild West is explored. And the faster we know where the rattlesnakes are hiding, which branch-off of the path leads to Death Valles and which leads to California.

Water by the River

 

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

1 minute ago, Buck Edwards said:

He could have divided it into two posts for the sake of convenience.

True. Will do that next time.

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

5 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

@Water by the River you mocked me. It shows you don't care about people. Which means your spirituality is not worth it. It's bull. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=frog+pond+plop+zen&rlz=1C1CHBF_deDE908DE908&sxsrf=AB5stBjjt50nXde_G3vF6Tnk9kPmc3XowQ%3A1691404768134&ei=4MnQZILvB676sAfN3K_gDg&ved=0ahUKEwiC34DjrcqAAxUuPewKHU3uC-wQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=frog+pond+plop+zen&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiEmZyb2cgcG9uZCBwbG9wIHplbjIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUimFFCcCFinEnABeACQAQCYAewBoAGLBqoBBTAuMy4xuAEDyAEA-AEBwgILEC4YgAQYsAMYywHCAgkQABgIGB4YsAPCAgsQABgIGB4YDxiwA8ICBhAAGBYYHuIDBBgBIEGIBgGQBgQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

That little Haiku of Basho is in my perspective a very nice pointer to Ultimate Reality. 

If one wants it shorter and with less conceptual overkill, Zen is perfect for that. I like it a lot.

If you have felt mocked, please excuse. It was not my intention to mock you personally, but please give me some space sometimes for some of my posts. It is not that I am not self-ironic or unaware of the length of my posts.

But I can't make some stuff shorter. The book has 600 pages, the method alone at least 300 if one leaves the preliminary stuff away. And Leo asked for a short summary.

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

Just now, Buck Edwards said:

Can't you ever make shorter less cumbersome posts? 

frog pond plop

 

Ok, not mine, and borrowed without explicit permission. But still short... 

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

On 5.8.2023 at 1:29 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River Thanks for the details.

You mentioned Mahamudra/Dzogchen daily practice. In brief, what does that entail?

I'm guessing Kriya yoga would be more effective than sitting meditation. Which is why I recommended it in the past. Personally I have found that sitting meditation is absurdly ineffective unless it's done for a week at a time like a non-stop retreat. If I meditate nonstop on a retreat for 7-10 days then some interesting shifts in consciousness start to become possible. But it's such a pain in the ass to do.

The problem I have with daily non-sitting meditation is that it interferes with intellectual/creative work. I don't understand how anyone does that and achieves any kind of work but manual labor. And frankly even that seems challenging.

Let me try to answer your questions as brief as possible. That is challenging, because the Mahamudra system is technically very complex with many stages. I like to compare Zen/Theravada to cutting a tree with an axe, while Mahamudra is something like a forest harvester: The axe was available already in stone-age and worked, robust and slow. The forest harvester needs precise handling and thorough understanding & training, but is waaay faster.

Anyway, lets try the impossible at least roughly. Here is my main thread of the explanation on Mahamudra in the Pointing out the Great Way style (Daniel Brown, 600 page book, around 200-300 pages on the juicy main-practice-stages of Mahamudra). 

To give you an idea/feeling (not really possible to do in brief, but I try): The description of two main steps:

Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition

Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual)

 

Lets start with Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition

It is a "High-Speed-Search-Task into Nature of thoughts, into the "Unfindability/Emptiness" of thoughts. They evaporate when looking into their nature. 

• The nature of every emerging thought/concept, emerging out of Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality): And the nature of thoughts is its unfindability: Thoughts have no location, they are "made"/essence out of Infinite Consciousness. Thoughts dissolve when looking into their nature (Aware Empty Infinite Consciousness). One can never "find" a thought. They dissolve when looking into their essence. They move within onself, and dissolve when looking into them And that process/phenomenon is used.
• and with that cutting off (=Trekchö), since its nature is empty Infinite Consciousness/Suchness. Consciousness literally stops the thought then.

At one point when one is fast enough, one sees the order of emergence IN the Infinite Mind is

1. Understanding or just some other cause
2. Thought emergence (fully formed, fully emerging in mili-seconds, but not yet "elaborated-out" over several seconds)
3. being elaborated out over a part of a second to several seconds)

And step 3 doesn't happen then. It is cut off. THAT is was brings Awakened States (nondual, boundless, basically if done fast enough. The thought "capsules" start emerging faster and faster then, 10-20 thoughts capsules per second+, and at some point Awareness stays "on top" of even that. That is where the magic starts (Nonduality begins developing, and the mindstream can get silent, bliss starts flowing. A very discrete and "hard" psychological process).

On 13.5.2023 at 8:49 PM, Water by the River said:

Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system)

• Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon...
• If you look HOW the thoughts emerge,
  • (1) out of what they emerge,
  • (2) what they are,
  • (3) in what they move
  • (4) into what they disappear
    • ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something"
    • All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that".
    • and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste.
• What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also...
  • Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö".
  • Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness.
  • So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast.
    • You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves.
    • You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away.
    • At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence.
    • At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. 
      • Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I
        • don't control what thoughts emerge and
        • if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second?
        • good question... to be answered later.
• Outcome is: 
  • You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature.
  • you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom.
  • You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature.
  • At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way.

 

And that happens in the beginning phases still on the pillow, but can also happen very much in daily life when intensive thought activity is not necessary. Later, it becomes also possible with sophisticated intellectual/creative thinking, when Awareness has become strong enough to stay lucid THROUGH the thought-elaboration. No longer hypnotized, the creative/intellectual happening within oneself on auto-pilot. Awakened Awareness and its Infinite Intelligence tends to take over, the separate-self/ego gets out of the way. That makes it also much more effective, since the ego/separte-self tended to act as a filter. From this Awakenened Awareness all intelligence and creativity comes from anyway, that is why creativity is so highly valued and pleasurable. This Awakened Awareness is the source of bliss anyway....

So, then the next step described in this post (Stage 2, see link above, jumped due to the specific question of Leo for "daily" practice:

Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste. One Taste = Nondual boundless consciousness. Getting that into daily life. When enough proficiency of creating lucid states with this High-Speed-Cutoff is generated, the Awareness/Lucidity doesn't get lost when thinking. It stays. And with it the Awakened States. And then daily life starts getting nondual, especially if no academic thinking is necessary (still large parts of the day).  With academic style thinking/creative thinking, it takes more Lucidity/Training, but is doable.  

 

On 13.5.2023 at 8:49 PM, Water by the River said:

Yoga of One Taste (3. Yoga of Mahamudra System)

• So here it gets nondual and mere appearance, floating in Nothingness. No more a solid and external/duality reality "out there" anymore. But an infinite limitless field of Infinite Consciousness, manifesting an appearing world of mere appearances arising in it. A loving blissful boundless timeless field of  bright lucid Awakened Awareness. This is where probably (my pet-theory) the Endohuasca-System starts working. https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/
• The practice is basically taking the insights of stage 2 and putting them into practice, specifically also in daily everyday life.
  • With that, one gets enough time and momentum in meditation to really make the difference, to get it nondual. To make all that with sitting meditation on the pillow, at least for me it would have been a full-time job. And I did a demanding career and some other stuff in the meantime also...
• The view taken
  • all thoughts/mental events emerge in the Always Here Mind, or Simultaneous Mind (which means nondual). 
  • same with all world appearances.
  • The essence of all thoughts is emptiness/consciousness, and the essence of all visual field appearances is also emptiness/appearance/consciousness. That is called the "One Taste" of every arising (thought or world-appearance). Nondual in other words.
• and being aware of the emerging high-speed stream of thoughts emerging already with full content, but getting elaborated in the seconds following, and
  • cutting off most of the emergent thoughts by looking into their nature, which has been automized by this point
• enough clarity and mindfulness is generated that at some point
  • The Visual Field/"world": Becomes mere appearance and infinite/limitless
    • becomes mere appearance appearances
      • 1) the world no longer feels "out-there". Everything arising just arises in oneself.
      • 2) appearances loose their solidity. One can not tell if they are solid "objects" out there, or just appearances happening in the timeless Always-Here-Mind
      • 3) At some point later, with a lot of meditation-mindfulness-momentum, the "inside" feeling as pure empty awareness, a very transparent witness, but not even that because the awareness is no longer separate: the visual field becomes really mere appearance.
        • One looks at something, and its just appearance hovering in Nothingness.
        • You feel into it, and its essence is the same as the indescripbable Nothingness behind ones head.
        • luminous mere appearances, very similiar to trip-descriptions.
    • the limit of the visual field, and the wondering of "what is behind it", become limitless or infinite
      • there is "nothing" behind it. One just imagines a border/boundary of the visual field
      • one imagines that something must be behind it (like 3D-Space continues".
        • No, 3D-space is imagined in dimensionless Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness.
        • 3D-Space is not self-existing, dangling out there. That was a biggie for me, took a long time to get, and could have been much faster with coaching. Guess I am quite a visual person
    •  Time is gone. Timeless
      • Everything can only happen here, and now
      • Past is imagined here and now , future also here and now
  •  the "subject"/"me", the separate self Gestalt/arisings, feeling and being separate from the whole Reality,
    • slowly gets transcended and dissolves, more and more aspects of the person/separate self are seen as arisings moving within oneself.
    • finally, after a long path of transcending every identity/I-thought/I-feeling of the Ego/Body-Mind/character, it becomes a transparent witness, nothing but still something witnessing the visual field.
    • At some point, One can't tell AT ALL what one is, nothing positive is left. I am not the body/person, anything. Only aware Emptiness. But somehow some murky Witness or something like that still there. One literally doesn't know what one is, besides the nondual field...
    • One becomes the visual field of mere appearance, one is that in a nondual way.
    • any sense of location or center slowly dissolves. One becomes the whole boundless timeless field of mere empty, groundless appearance. Sometimes lucid and shimmering, like mere appearance.
    • Some traditions call that already Enlightenment, or Kensho/Satori/Awakening. And it is in some way. But Nonduality is not already Full or Great Enlightenment, where there is absolutely no doubt about ones nature, and the nature of reality. That can become clear like ice-cold water thrown in ones face. 
    • Nonduality can be very well experienced by a separate self, just try some psychedelics.... To reach Nonduality sobre without psychdelics, one already has to be quite empty or transcended the separate self, but not necessarily (and normally) fully.
      • With psychedelics, you don't need to empty (or have transcended the separate self) at all. 5 MeO will do that for, even if you don't want. Not fully empty, not the last step (no traces of  Individuality/transparent witness left, see above), but very very much.
    • that brings us to the last stage, Stage 4 of the Mahamudra System, the Yoga of Nonmeditation. And here is where meditation, and the long time it enables in these very empty states of dissolving every last speck of individuality/last very subtle separate self arisings/last very subtle illusions, becomes paramount.  Only this 4. stage enables the final crossing over to fully, without a doubt, knowing what Ones True Self, and Reality, really is. Without that, suffering, grasping for ever more Awakenings, and still being a bit "gaslighting-ability" of the finality of ones realization/awakening, continues.

 

2nd TOPIC OF THIS POST: God-Realization in your words, or "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality."

And this (Yoga of One Taste) brings us then to the "base camp of Full Enlightenment", the "jumping platform" where Full Enlightenment can happen (some of which main aspects you refer to with God Realization): Stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. I have written elsewhere about it, see link above. The Nondual Stages of Yoga of One Taste would get confirmed in other traditions (Zen for example) as Enlightenment/Satori/Kensho. But not Great/Full Enlightenment, or God-Realization in your wording. That is an "accident", for which Stage 3&4 make accident-prone.

I agree with you that Emptiness/Void is neither God Realization nor Full Enlightenment, where also that "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality" is realized. I am starting more to understand why you emphasize that in your language/system of experience, and I agree on the importance of it. In Zen, there is a differentiation between just shallower Enlightenments (Kenshos, Satoris) into the empty nature of all appearance, or into emptiness. The separte-self can still be very alive then.

On 5.8.2023 at 8:45 PM, Leo Gura said:

You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality.

The biggest difference between the consciousness I talk about and Buddhism or enlightenment is that enlightenment is reductionistic. It boils consciousness down to emptiness. Whereas what I am talking about is a top-down, non-reductionistic process of God comprehending itself. When you boil God down to emptiness is as Buddhist methoda do, that's a very different thing and inferior in my book.

The Full Enlightenment on the other side, the total dissolution of the separate-self, leaves one with exactly that realization: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." Although there is no more you, nor God, but Reality itself becoming consciousness OF itself IMAGINING itself as all there ever could be.

This Enlightenment is probably between 10-50 less common than the real thing of Full Enlightenment. Probably that is why you are so annoyed with the large majority of Buddhist Enlightenments (either contemporarily claimed or described in literature).

Let me give you four examples of that differentiation (I could give many more, but that would blast the post. Ok, I admit, its already blasted and way too long... forgive me).

1) Huang Po

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun

"One Mind

Huángbò's teaching centered on the concept of “mind” (Chinese: hsin), a central issue for Buddhism in China for the previous two centuries or more. He taught that mind cannot be sought by the mind. One of his most important sayings was “mind is the Buddha”. He said:

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists [red by me]. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings.[8]

He also said: To awaken suddenly to the fact that your own Mind is the Buddha [Nothing exists beside IT=God=Reality=True You], that there is nothing to be attained or a single action to be performed – this is the Supreme Way.[9]"

2) Yogachara school

https://integrallife.com/toward-fourth-turning-buddhism/

"The very notion of the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form opened the door, as we briefly mentioned, to other even “stronger” versions of nonduality or (metaphoric!) Wholeness, one of the most prominent being the Yogachara, introduced by the half‑brothers Asanga (more of a brilliant innovator) and Vasubandhu (more of an acute synthesizer). Another name for their school—Vijnaptimatra—is usually translated as “Mind-only” or “Representation-only.” The point here is that the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form allowed some philosopher-sages to come up with other terms for the “Form” that was seamlessly conjoined with ultimate Emptiness or Shunyata, one of them being “Mind” itself. The idea was that “Mind” itself was the same as Emptiness—the Yogachara philosophers were adamant that they were talking about the same “unqualifiable” Emptiness that Nagarjuna was, but by also referring to it as “Mind” they were giving (some would say metaphorically, some would say absolutely) a type of compass that would help relate ultimate Emptiness to an everyday reality everybody was aware of (such as, namely, the Mind). The Zen saying, “The everyday mind, just that is the Tao (ultimate Truth)” is a good example of this type of Yogachara thinking. And it showed clearly how one could “bring everything to the path,” starting with your own, simple, everyday awareness. This opened so many other doors—especially Tantra and Vajrayana—that it is referred to as “The Third Turning of the Wheel of Dharma.”

Buddhism has philosophically run a long way. Hinayana didn't even have the full Nondual Realization of Absolute Reality, Nagarjuna made Madyamaka (nothing can be said about Ultimate Reality). And where did it end? The philosophy all which pretty all sophisticated Tantric Buddhism system rely on? MIND-ONLY, Yogachara.

We need to at least differentiate the 2500 year system of Buddhism into these development steps. If not, we are fighting with a "fossil-philosophy"...

3) The Supreme Source, one of the main texts of Dzogchen (quite close to the Mahamudra above, Brown uses Dzogchen and Mahamudra elements together):

on which breathtaking beautiful absolute perpective you agreed:

On 25.10.2022 at 9:29 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River That is very good. That guy gets it.

Unfortunately such Buddhists are rarer than hen's teeth. I dare you to find one in real life who will guide you to his level of consciousness in a way you can actually follow.

What you have to keep in mind about such people is they tend to be very gifted. Which is why they are so rare. You are not going to find such a Buddhist at your local retreat.

 

There is gold in Buddhism, Full Enlightenment, God Realization. And tools to make it stable in daily life. The later systems of Tantric Buddhism, but also Mahayana, have at their philosophic core Yogachara or Madhyamaka (I have written on that elsewhere). These two qualifications of Ultimate Reality are in line with what you call God Realization.

4) In Zen 3 pillars of Zen, Kapleau:

Some quotes from that book:

"ROSHI: With a first enlightenment the realization of oneness is usually shallow. Yet if one has genuinely perceived, even though dimly, and continues to practice devotedly for five or ten more years, this inner vision will expand in depth and magnitude as one’s character acquires flexibility and purity."

The story of Bassui:

"You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality."

"This way is no other than the realization of your own Mind. Now what is this Mind? It is the true nature of all sentient beings, that which existed before our parents were born and hence before our own birth, and which presently exists, unchangeable and eternal. So it is called one’s Face before one’s parents were born. This Mind is intrinsically pure. When we are born it is not newly created, and when we die it does not perish. It has no distinction of male or female, nor has it any coloration of good or bad. It cannot be compared with anything, so it is called Buddha-nature. Yet countless thoughts issue from this Selfnature as waves arise in the ocean or as images are reflected in a mirror. To realize your own Mind you must first of all look into the source from which thoughts flow

And: Realization Emptiness, or Void, IS NOT YET FULL ENLIGHTENMENT:

"In this propitious state deepen and deepen the yearning, tirelessly, to the extreme. When the profound questioning penetrates to the very bottom, and that bottom is broken open, not the slightest doubt will remain that your own Mind is itself Buddha, the Void-universe. There will then be no anxiety about life or death, no truth to search for. In a dream you may stray and lose your way home. You ask someone to show you how to return or you pray to God or Buddhas to help you, but still you can’t get home. Once you rouse yourself from your dream-state, however, you find that you are in your own bed and realize that the only way you could have gotten home was to awaken yourself. This [kind of spiritual awakening] is called “return to the origin” or “rebirth in paradise.” It is the kind of inner realization that can be achieved with some training. Virtually all who like zazen and make an effort in practice, be they laypeople or monks, can experience to this degree. But even such [partial] awakening cannot be attained except through the practice of zazen. You would be making a serious error, however, were you to assume that this was true enlightenment in which there is no doubt about the nature of reality. You would be like one who having found copper gives up the desire for gold."

Or: Not yet Full Enlightenment-Realization.

"But even now repeatedly cast off what has been realized, turning back to the subject that realizes, that is, to the root bottom, and resolutely go on. Your Self-nature will then grow brighter and more transparent as your delusive feelings perish, like a gem gaining luster under repeated polishing, until at last it positively illumines the entire universe [infinite nondual mere appearance boundlessness of ones nondual limitless being then]."

"You must understand that anything appearing in your consciousness or seen by your eyes is an illusion [imagined], of no enduring reality. Hence you should neither fear nor be fascinated by such phenomena. If you keep your mind as empty as space, unstained by extraneous matters, no evil spirits can disturb you even on your deathbed. While engaged in zazen, however, keep none of this counsel in mind. You must only become the question “What is this Mind?” or “What is it that hears these sounds?” When you realize this Mind you will know that it is the very source of all Buddhas and sentient beings.

And that ends in Full Enlightenment:

"keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present [they all have been expressions of this Infinite Mind of yours, of the only Reality there is or could be, dreaming up all these worlds]."

There is nothing else than: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality."

And that becomes stable in daily life when there is no longer a separate-self, but only Reality. God. True Nature. Whatever one wants to call "It" then...

 

And that Ultimate Reality is Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. "It" is both nothing/impersonal, but also everything there could be imagined. It is Reality itself. The True Core of each being. 

As long as something of a remaining separate-self projected on it, its not stable in daily life. The remains of that separate-self will also "colour" all higher insights/realizations. Bliss doesn't flow yet full time, so the suffering will make the being continue and refine anything that is not conforming to this Ultimate Reality, ones True being.

Or according to Huang Po, The One [Infinite] Mind that dreams or imagines it all up all Reality.

Water by the River

 

PS: Ok, yours truly confesses: short is it not, the post.... But please don't hit me too hard, took some time to write, and I got plenty of other things to do also.

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, I beg to differ.

And that is ok.

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

However from the point of view of teaching, the classic path you suggest boils down to sitting for months on end in silence doing nothing. So I have nothing to teach on that matter. Anyone who is hardcore enough to undertake that path is welcome to do so. Realistically extremely few people will ever do this. And talking about it endlessly is not going to help people do it. I would say, either decide to do it or stop talking about it.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What other way is there?

I didn't do too much sitting meditation (still 100s of hours/maybe in the lower 1000s, but not excessive Zen/Theravada-style 10.000s of hours monk fulltime stuff), but walked the path of Mahamudra/Dzogchen (with 1000s of hours of meditation, but in daily life over 15 years+), with taking the meditation early into daily life (and not just mindfulness, but high-speed thought-cut-off Trekchö), and that got pleasant quite early on. 

Here is a summary of that step:

On 28.5.2023 at 3:44 PM, Water by the River said:

Actually, one normally needs to take the meditation off the meditation pillow into daily life, staying fully awake while the mindstream is doing its thing and is still on in daily life.

Only this way, off the pillow and in daily life, one gets the momentum of 1000s of hours of  meditation of transcending ones separate self (at least for normies and other not so gifted people, like yours truly) to make it to awakened nondual states. And these 1000s of hours when taken off the pillow into daily life are then really nice, no chore.

•  The really MAGIC POINT when you manage to take the mindfulness of staying "on top" of the mindstream, cutting it off if you want to, and off the meditation pillow into living daily life from that. From there on, its downhill, and gets better and better... bliss and love starts flowing.
  • To do that, one needs
    • the right system that can do that (taking meditation off the pillow). Not all (actually quite few, including Mahamudra) have efficient methods for doing that. If they have methods for doing that at all.
    • and a few 100 hours (I would guess in average) on the pillow to get to that point.

 

If somebody says one doesn't need these several 1000 hours (because he/she didn't need that), 

• that person could surely qualifies to coach others that also don't need these 1000s of hours... . And for sure, there are people that don't need these 1000s of hours. Although, probably not that many, considering how much is meditated, and few wake up...
• But how does one know how much transcendence/hours one needs to get the awakened states, before actually being there? And if a system that worked at less than 1000s hours necessary works on oneself? Right, one doesn't...
• Often most endearing are the folks that needed very little practice (or anything of practice at all) to wake up, or next to none meditation: Hey, won the lottery, great.
  • But how many win the lottery? Sure one got a lottery-winner canidate as coachee? Hey you, are you one, will ya?? The minor nuiances of life...
• Also awesome and funny are some Zen/Theravada-systems and the like, that teach "bone-breaking" methods of boring meditation that lead nowhere without really Uber-human-willpower of enduring ones monkey-mind, boredom, and failing meditation and lacking lovely states....
  • Like  in, Die on the pillow! Yes darling, but how about killing me softly with actually an efficient meditation system where I can see my progress, and actually start feeling better quite soon?
  • And where I don't get beaten with the Keisaku if I actually ask a technical question on my meditation method that makes sense?

 

And many other "Pointing out the Great Way" Propaganda-posts in my post-achieve, just check for "Pointing out the Great Way".

Here is a summary of the path, and my experience with that path:

The path of Mahamudra/Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhism) described for example in Brown, Pointing out the Great Way (and the other books of Brown) is in my experience unique in efficiency. With Zen or Theravada meditation-system, I would have needed the 1000s-10.000s of hours and years of sitting meditation, with an unassured outcome. Of that I am sure.

Please feel invited to take a look at that system. Maybe it is the system you are looking for. I feel very similiar like you describe in your post when looking at most other meditation-systems I am aware of (and I read about pretty much all of the major ones, on some more, on some less), but not this one.

 

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Insane amounts of full-time meditation. This requires you quit your job, drop your relationships, and meditate full-time for months.

I have a quite successful entrepreneurial and business career, and a happy marriage. And a hobby besides all this transcendence stuff.  It is possible.

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a good reason why I've never talked much about this whole "end of suffering" business. And that is because this is such a near-impossible feat that only the hardest of the hardcore will achieve it. And even those who claim to achieve it, I have my doubt how true it is.

Well, lets see what life brings...

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So I say back to you, have mercy on my followers and don't fill their heads with pipe dreams. Many of them don't have the potential to end all suffering. And once you fill their heads with this expectation, you will multiply all their suffering many fold.

Yes. Yet, all beings automatically karmically go from life to life, growing and wising up in the long run, orienting themselves to less suffering. With the classic methods of compassion and becoming more aware of the mindstream, normally not too much damage can be done, and suffering tends to get less. And then maybe some psychedelics from time to time to contact the eternal...

And yes, one should to good to oneself, and not multiply suffering with anything. Eternity will not run away...

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I should clarify something for you guys so you don't fool yourselves: psychedelics will not produce a permanent high state of consciousness nor a permanent blissed out state. If that's something you expect or want, look for other means. You cannot use psychedelics to magically avoid training for those things which require training. For example, being a kind, gentle human being requires training. You can't get that behavior without training.

Namaste! That is beautiful. Thank you. 

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because you don't need to comprehend anything to bliss out. All you gotta do is shut off your mind and sit still.

You would be the first one for whom that bliss-out has worked permanently without the comprehension or Realization of Full Enlightenment by just shutting off the mind and sitting still.

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You DO NOT comprehend what Consciousness is

I see. If you mean the manifestations/appearances/Awakenings n+1 that Consciousness can produce WITHIN it and become aware of it, awaken to it ever more: It is endless. In that way, you also don't comprehend it. And never finally will or can. Its God business exploring what it/God can do, its potential, forever. We are the instruments of the Reality/God doing that.  It will never stop, never run out of new Awakeninsg. An Infinity of Infinties, as already Cantor has shown.

But I do comprehend the Absolute, or my True Nature, and the nature of the dream. And with that all possible dreams. And that ends the separate-self, and the psychological suffering.

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes it may lead to more suffering.

But also, nothing prevents me from also pursuing the end of suffering via traditional means.

And with that, we align. And I am, and will remain, a big fan of your explorations and Awakenings.

Just have some mercy on your followers: Many of them don't have the potential you have of exploring the Multiverse/Consciousness, and just suffer more if they don't pursue the classic path to the end of suffering, the end of the separate-self contraction, or Full Enlightenment, and go instead for exploring the Infinite Infinities of Reality. Most of them will probably not reach Full Enlightenment in this life, but it is not the only life they have. It is growth over a long cycle of lifes (see for example Jürgen Ziewe, http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Life_after_death_-_a_description_of_the_afterlife.html ). Maybe they have to learn their individual package in this life? Setting these up for the path of the (fascinating and important) exploration of the Infinity of Dimensions of Reality and ever higher Awakenings into Consciousness (your Karma) will lead to additional suffering on their side.

Maybe there is balance possible that honours the respect, beauty and splendour of Gods creations, ever higher Awakenings and becoming more consciousness (that I don't denie at all), and the path each soul is traveling towards its True Being? To minimize suffering for all possible beings?

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

16 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Water by the River You forget that in this forum a lot of people are too cool for this selfish normie motivation of avoiding suffering/going towards freedom.

They already said they don't mind suffering, they are so above of us normies just wanting to be blissed out with our mind totally empty.

God! How we dare...choosing as the high goal to be just a simple peace of life as long as everything within is completely 'set up' and at ease.

We would sell our brains with all the data and information for just the Empty Bliss. Such a traition to God.

How simple we are...how spiritually inferior developed we are for having such selfish simple priority....

Yes. Javfly33, every being ends up with that insight after having been beaten enough by INFINITELY large and Infinitely Intelligent Reality.

Every being suffers as long as all these mindsets of doing something else than trying to finding permanent bliss persist. And even in doing or prefering something else they just do something that brings bliss or peace or good emotions, even when searching ever new Awakenings n+1, or getting maximum conscious, whatever that means in the individual case).

So, its just the question of 

a) learning by suffering by trying the 1000+1 games separate-selfs play, and seeing that they all fail in bringing permanent happiness. Takes a longer time, but is the nature of this game/lila/universe and its Raison d'Être (the Lila-Show) or

b) learning by insight and going straight to the finish line, or back home to ones True Being: Full Enlightenment. The Deep Identity Shift to being the Infinite Reality itself, the one without a second, or Infinite Impersonal Consciousness.

All I am trying to do is highlighting this little dynamic how the Absolute "throws" itself out into manifestation, form, the many, separate-self, and PULLS itself back home either by suffering or insight. And valueing a) higher as b), or a) being somehow spiritual superior to b).

In a certain way, I am spoiling the game/Lila of a). But just look at the reactions, I am very sure I won't spoil it for too many...  

Water by the River 

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

1) insane levels of consciousness which you will never ever naturally reach, 2) and insight.

And "insane levels of consciousness" or "insigh" into what? Appearance/Form/Arisings IN Absolute Reality. N+1, evermore, forever. You never "arrive" somewhere (IT is infinite and Infinity).

And while doing that and not being fully enlightened (or BEING Ones True Nature, Absolute Reality): Suffering in cycles.

"I have never claimed that psychedelics result in the lack of suffering."
But at least I got the message that the end of psychological suffering (or Full Enlightenment) was declared impossible, or at least as lower in value or priority (like in "spiritual summom bonum, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summum_bonum) to ever new and higher Awakenings. Please correct me if I got the wrong impression.

Look, exploring Reality with ever new Awakenings: Wonderful, I am all for it! It is the future of Humanity, and you are a pioneer. There are literally endless dimensions to be explored. By the way, do you know the work of Jurgen Ziewe (longtime Out of body explorer, with legit Enlightenment experiences)? (http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Model_of_the_Multidimensional_Universe.html ; http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Higher_Mental_Planes_or_Heaven_Worlds.html ; http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Life_after_death_-_a_description_of_the_afterlife.html ) for example.  I am sure you would love it.

The only problem I see is giving that higher exploration of ever higher Awakenings n+1 more value/priority over stabilzing in ones True Being (Full Enlightenment). Because it will lead to more suffering for many, including you. That is as far as I can see that is pretty much the only point where we have different perspectives.

And please take care that you dont take some demons/angels (sorry old fashioned wording from a few centuries ago) Aliens of the not so well meaning kind (Jaques Valle, Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers; Charles Upton, The Alien Disclosure Deception; Graham Hancock, Supernatural) back home from the exploration, and go really insane and not just a bit alien insane. And that is meant not ironically, but well meaning and respectfully. Hic sunt dracones.

All the best for your future journey, and same for all forum participants. Really.

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course it's always here. It's everything. But that doesn't say anything about how conscious you are.

But if one can access the Absolute at will (the visual field as boundless timeless infinite nondual mere appearance), switch off the self-contraction/separate-self (and its suffering included) at will if it dares to raise its ugly head again, and STAY in that Ultimate Impersonal Reality... that says something about (to use your words) how conscious "one" is.

Well, you can turn it around it all the ways you want. The fact that Ultimate Reality is not stable accessible and suffering continues is the hallmark of the psychedelic-afficionados, from all I have seen so far.

How come Infinitely intelligent Reality doesn't let the psychedelic afficionado rest blissfully in True Nature? Why does suffering not stop in that case? Because Infinitely Intelligent Ultimate Reality doesn't want that (nor could it, even if "it" wanted) a not fully transcended ego/separate-self stays there blissed out and proclaims "that is the highest". IT is IMPERSONAL Infinite Consciousness. With Impersonal in bold letters. And until that is delivered by fully transcending and killing the separate-self-arisings in normal life, there is practice of transcedence and "dying to the lower identites" to be done. The suffering is what pulls a separate-self back to its True Nature, Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or Reality itself (including the manifest show in a nondual way).

Honestly, if there ever has been one big warning sign dangling on top of all of that proclaimed "highest Awakeninsg n+1", it is what described in the paragraph above. Suffering continues. And Reality will make you suffer until you get that.

Cruel game? Not really, no one gets left behind halfway up the mountain, in the suffering of the claws of the self-contraction of the separate-self, until that is fully transcended and gone. And going exploring the Multiverse in ever "higher" Awakenings ."Higher" into what? The Absolute can not be higher or lower, only form/manifestation/appearance/arisings WITHIN IT. So its higher Awakenings into ever more relative appearing arisings, not the Absolute. And that  will just prolong that suffering.

Please prove me wrong. If you don't shut down the show here, we all are in the prime seats to watch it.

Anyway, bon voyage!

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

And With this premise, I highly doubt that  Adyashanti, Spira, Shadguru, and many others are awake. Ralston I don't know. I would say neither. infinity is a bottomless well of love. an infinite flow in a dance of love. It is The Truth, and it is God, and it is what you always are. maybe ramana maharshi explains it more or less. many others like nisgardatta majaraj, i would say no. They are not fully awake, they have remained in the void

I have read pretty much all material from Adyashanti and Nisargadatta. Both certainly are fully enlightened, and for sure have not remained in the void. Reading Nisargadatta that is totally clear in many writings, but also at many places in the writings of Adyashanti that is also very clear.  Same with Ralston. 100% clear.

On Sadguru I can't tell. A few videos I have seen did not convince me at all, to say the least, but I could be wrong.

2 signs that what you call Infinity is not the final end of the story: 

1) you can't access it stably in daily life and

2) you would be able to tell concerning Adyashanti, Spira and Nisargadatta.

If its Ultimate Reality or the Absolute, it HAS to be always here, and HAS to be always accessible once realized. Everything else is just a state that is once there, and then poof gone, no more accessible. IT is always right here.

Sorry that I am so direct. From all I have seen, psychedelics lead "there" and to what you describe, but not beyond.

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

who are , in your opinion, a really enlightened masters?  

Ok, here comes a wild mix:

Just now, Water by the River said:

Wilber, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Jac O'Keffee, Wolinsky, Balsekar

• Ralston.
• Then Daniel Brown, and his teacher Lungtok Tenpai Nyima (both deceased). But Daniel Brown left the "best of teachings" that Nyima gave him from the Bon Traditions of Tibetan Buddhism to translate into english. That is in my opinion the best system currently on the planet, highly sophisticated and overlooked by far compared to more simpler/robust teachings like Zen/Theravada and so on.
• Shardza Rinpoche, translated by Brown. I assume what kind of treasure that is will become clearer in the next decades and centuries. The Tibetans have done that for a Millenia with utmost determination.
• Shankara, crest jewel of discrimination.

And quite some more if you want to know. But that is already more than necessary for a quite complete, wholesome and integral path right up the mountain top. Sure, some side-peaks (relative stuff) are maybe better reached by other teachings/paths/methods, but these are side-peaks in the form/arising/appearance-realm. But for the Absolute, or the Mountain-Peak, that is enough.

Good Night

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

Just now, Anon212 said:

You can say that but I don't know, again its assuming. It's a case of you don't know until you know and its seems you can never know where other teachers are really at, it's a lot of guessing. You can come with an innumerable amount of other reasons as to why Ralston chooses to teach. 

At this point, I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that there really is not authority to turn to. You can't know and can't ultimately depend on someone. It's nice and comforting to know that you can just follow a teacher and salvation is guaranteed (why not become a devotee to some guru?) But I guess that is where true spirituality descends into religion. So you can have guidance but your in the end you're on your own and the only thing that matters is your direct consciousness...

BTW why do you put your tag at the end of the post?

Believe me, I know its utterly complex. I had the same problem for a long time. That is why I was really relieved when I started getting what they were all talking about. At the end, it takes Enlightenment to know what you are and to really confirm what Reality is. Nothing short will fully do. In the meantime: Heart and Brain go a long way:

Listen to your heart, and if your Intuition (which is a big part of your Karma) is good enough, it will lead you somewhere good. Look for love in the teacher, true compassion. But also use your brain. The Absolute is well defined, across the traditions. See Wilber, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Jac O'Keffee, Wolinsky, Balsekar for that.

If you understand what Wilber writes about Madyamaha, you can not go far off track. I think he has a good passage on that in Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. I will check where is main essay on that is tomorrow, and will post it. Good night everbody.

Bon voyage!

Selling Water by the River

PS:

6 minutes ago, Anon212 said:

BTW why do you put your tag at the end of the post?

 

On 6.5.2023 at 11:02 AM, Water by the River said:

Every time I write Selling Water by the River, it is to acknowledge by the way that what is being doing is

• Illusion.
  • But a nice one! What else is there to do? And since there is only appearance/illusion, there is no difference between reality and appearing illusion in some way. And Karma/cause effect fully works/holds, works like a clockwork, driven by infinite intelligence. Even if its only imagined...
• that "I" am "selling" something that is freely available to all (the Water of the River). Actually, there is only the Water of the River.
• That the water of the River is the Buddha Nature of every being, the Nothingness that is the essence of all of Reality. So nothing that could be superior to anything else at the end of the day...
• Actually, there are no others to safe. And yet, that is what tends to appear to happen normally. And should happen on a relative level, as it is in the nature of things...
  • And that is paradoxical from before the Gateless Gate, but not afterwards... It is only the True You manifesting in endless perspectives.... sometimes appearing (only appearing) confused in some mindstreams, and in some not. The "Core" never gets confused, since it is Nothing(-ness). It contains the confused or unconfused mind-stream arisings.

 

quote from:

 

 

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River All paths don't lead up the same mountain.

Multiple Absolutes? The mountains are form/appearance appearing IN the Absolute. Even the formless realms still are arisings/appearances in Infinite Consciousness/Reality/True You.

Absolute: Oneness and Infinite? Or not?

But also yes: Many paths don't lead up to the mountain top (Absolute), but on other side-peaks (arising IN the Absolute, aka form/appearance/arising).

Or is there no Absolute in your view? Or several? 

Water by the River

[I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...]

1 minute ago, Anon212 said:

Actually, it's only Ralston (from the teachers I know) that doesn't talk about Love. I don't know the nuances.

Don't you see it in his videos (at least in some its quite obvious)? His state? The reason why he continues to engage with the topic of Enlightenment and the Absolute to "others"? Don't you think it would be easier for him to stay removed from the world in the bliss of his realization? Why doesn't he do that? Love. 

To stay remote, in ones own bliss, and not engage the ignorance of the world is the easiest thing to do at a certain point. But shortly after that point, you realize you are all beings. Literally. And that realization.... Love.

Water by the River