Water by the River

. I agree with all my heart. > The whole point is that Infinity is inexhaustable. GOD is a mystery unto itself. You are not going to achieve specific omniscience, but you can get general omniscience. The general structure of Reality can be understood (Awakening, Enlightenment), the specifics continue to get explored. Imagine: "We" will NEVER run out of new adventures, worlds and realities! In the beginning when I started realizing what that infinity actually means, I was scared and in awe of such a vision. In the way of the definition of awe: "an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is [infinitely more] grand, sublime, extremely powerful [than oneself], or the like: in awe of God", Wikipedia. I had to step back, my character reacted a bit ... shocked. Luckily, I was at a stage where that reaction already mostly flowed through my being without rocking the remains of the separate self character too hard. In the meantime, this insight became the most wonderful thing. "We" will never run out of wonders to explore. An infinity of infinities. Something I would not have anticipated is that this initial insight transformed into a deep appreciation of the beauty of this world, of this one reality of infinity. Because what is then to do here, if even God can't empty out this infinity of Lilas, and has to explore them to know and realize them "all"? At least for me, the spontaneous answer was and still is: Enjoy the beauty of this world. There is so much wonder! Enjoy every detail, nature, region, cultures, of this planet Earth ... That insight brought much joy into my life. Selling the manifested beauty of the Water by the River...

Your perspective on that is already quite good. I would suggest to add these three perspectives: 1: -> The infinite perspectives in the Non-Euclidian-Space as approximation 2: When allowing for forgetting in time, then also allowing for forgetting other perspectives right now, or in "space". 3: The Awakening to the Absolutely Empty Subject that you (and all beings) really are. Any boundary can only be imagined within that. That is why you have to be fully empty to understand Absolute Reality. Then: When you are fully empty and nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves, at some point you will directly have the realization and understanding that the same Consiousness that you are is in the "other", having arisings of the separate self-feelings and -thoughts, being believed and not seen through, just in the same way it was with you for a long time. Then, these dry perspectives explained above become a lived and felt reality. You can not "think" or reason your way to these Awakenings. But with a perspective that is actually close to how things really work, it calmes your questions (mental arisings in your mindstream, which also include separate self-feelings and separte self-thoughts) on this, and make you rest in the Suchness, resting in the infinite Abyss of Empty Nothingness that you are. And then you are open for these Awakenings. You can't force them (that would be generating separate-self arisings, or artifical activity as Daniel Brown calls it in "Pointing out the Great Way"), but you can make your mindstream open and compatible/available for them (Evaluating these Koan on Psychedelics for sure also helps). More on that in the chapter on Non-Meditation Yoga in this book. All waves on the river are the river, watching the river, and are not separate from the river. There is only be the river. All form that can arise have to arise in Reality/Consciousness, including all imaginary boundaries. If you fully understand the structure of your perspective in this life, you can generalize this understanding for all possible perspectives. Since any boundary or border between any perspective can only be form in consciousness. How can you define any outside or inside if any boundary marking this boundary would be an arising in Absolute Consciousness? How can there be any time in it, besides and imagined arisings moving in it, imagining all past and future? What has to be there before every beginning and ending? What are you? Can you ever get truly "outside" of Yourself? And you can not say anything "positive" about this reality that you are, the Absolute Subject, since that would be a form, and arising, arising in it/You. You can only say what it is not. Neti Neti. "It" is Reality itself, unlimited, infinite. And it has the potential for sentience, perceptions perceiving themselves, as soon as forms arise. But this sentience is also empty, it can not be pointed to as arising or form of any kind. And yet, all of the infinite dimensions and forms arise in It/True You. You can describe the infinity of all arisings/forms of infinite dimensions/multiverses. But that which is truly infinite, what Absolute Reality/True You are, has to be realized and awakened to. That is why smarter people than myself mainly used Koans like the Clap of the one Hand, or An ancient pond/ a frog jumps in/ the sound of water. But the perspectives explained above were helpful for me to relax my philosophical mind with helpful perspectives that were close to how things really work. To be available for the real Awakening. Selling Water by the River

Enlightenment is in most definitions defined as seeing that all appearances arise within the infinite you, being imagined by you, through you. And you are that, the Totality, Tat Tvam Asi. That includes all arisings, including the feelings and thoughts of the separate self, including memories. And of course the boat (all spiritual teachings) that carried you to the other shore, that you cast into the stream after crossing over to the other shore. They also arise just in you. Reality/True You includes every possible arising or imagined form, n+1. I also agree that Just experiencing or becoming Emptiness or Nothingness is not sufficient. You can experience the Godhead as state (Cessation, Nirvikalpha), and even experience yourself as Nothingness in a nondual infinite state, and it is not yet IT. Why? Because there are still a very very subtle feeling of Inviduality, of being separate, that will continue appearing in you. Even if it is just a very subtle "Nothing" watching the infinite. And how to get the Realization into daily life? Like, seeing the whole infinite appearance bubble arise within you in daily life? Learn to get proficient in spotting this last feeling of indviduality/separateness, and cutting them off before they fully rise up and elaborate, put You under their spell, before they get believed. A High-Speed-Search-Task for the Emptiness of the separate self arisings, as Daniel Brown once called it. And when you are fully empty (your personality is not gone, it continues working more efficient and better than ever, its just blows like the wind through the Totality that you are then), you can sustain that. Nondual, infinite, blissfull, the not so separate self or character moving in you like the wind. You realize that you have always been that Totality, before with the illusion of something separate appearing in it. @Leo Gura : I am (at least in my understanding of your writings, especially the one above) very close with my definitions of these terms to your definition on God-Realization/Enlightenment. I understand why you put so much emphasize on understanding the points you mention above, because its sooo easy to stop short, and various teachers like Jac O'Keffee or Wolinsky, Massaro (I know...), Wilber, Davidya, even Bassui a few hundred years ago.... also emphasize that a lot: Further, never stop short. It is so easy to fool yourself, and stop at Nonduality with a separate self still left and not fully seen through. I also like your wording of imagination more than the classic buddhist wording of "empty or empty of inherent existence", the question of BiploarGrowth. ("Could you define imaginary as “something not having inherent existence and being completely reliant on Consciousness/You to appear”?). So, at least in my humble opinion, the more or less only point where I put a different emphasis than you (yet, which at least in my experience, has a drastic impact wether you can carry this realization into daily life), is: This last quantum of getting totally empty of the last Individuality/separateness-arising-items arising in you, not a lense seen through, but a lense fully transcended moving in you and not seen through, which enables you to sustain this Realization sobre without pychedelics, and to get it totally unbiased of any last separate self interpreting lense. @Leo GuraLeo, just one question: Where is your line of kicking out people? I understand that probably most people who write in a not so polite way or are making fun, or being ironic/sarcastic in a not so light way, or are being arrogant, are probably not writing that while being aware of their True Nature (at least while writing it, yet some may be), but are a bit annoyed by some manifestation in their visual field (which in that case happen to be your writings). So, for them, a little challenge: How about writing it being aware that Leo is actually fundamentally not different from you, and writing your message in a loving way, even if you feel the urgency of critique? Writing while not rejecting parts of your visual field (in that case, Leos message)? I respect you and your work (which is marvelous in so many areas). I just have a different perspective on the utmost importance of getting fully empty, seeing the separate self arisings in real time fast enough and not getting hypnotized, and to be able to carry that realization described above into everyday life, and the ensuing happiness/bliss that it brings. Utmost at least in my experience, because it made the difference on so much more happiness and bliss that has come into my life so that I can not honestly write about this topic without mentioning the experience I had with this aspect. Let's respectfully agree to disagree on that one point? Namaste and all the best! Water by the River

That is not my experience. At some point you take the practice off the pillow into daily life. There are techniques for doing that (for example the Mahamudra-practices described in Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown). Then, it would simply be rather unpleasant to not continue doing it. And the energetic shifts towards emptiness and nonduality continue and increase. I can imagine that falling back happens happens with something like only sitting-meditation concentration style or Koan-style (Zen, or Theravada-style). But I don't know, that is not the system I used mainly. At least according to my experience, it doesn't happen with something like the Yoga of One Taste of Mahamdura or the Yoga of Unelaboration/Skill of Recognition (Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). I don't see how that could not stick. And I don't think Genetics is the main part. I didn't have any great genetics, it took me around 15 years+, but only because I didn't get the efficient techniques at the beginning. If I would have been coached in the right way, it would have been a lot faster. Looking back, using the right techniques is so much key. If you don't, you can bang your head against the wall (or rather stare at it) for a looong time until something happens. You will not get somebody who failed at most stuff at life and without discipline there. But using the right meditation-techniques and diligence, and as soon as possible roll that out in daily life, then you will be doing fine. General understanding of the technique, diligence, and finding soon a way to make it pleasant. I believe that is key, at least it was for me. If you look for example at Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown, you have around 300-400 pages on these techniques. It is a very clear defined step-path, with many sub-techniques for each stage. The Tibetans have been doing that 1000 years, and it is in my opinion its the most sophisticated system on the planet. The Zen techniques (Koan and just sitting) look rather.... well, rudimentary compared to that. At least in my perspective. And the Theravada-techniques are not at that level of sophistication. Also just my perspective. If the meditation doesn't get pleasant after a certain time, in my opinion one is either not using the best techniques available, or is doing something wrong. Concerning the marvelous spiritual genetics topic: Here we are, in a forum in large parts based on Self-Help and quite a part of Self-Help on male-female dynamics, and there it is forbidden to blame looks, but with meditation we blame genetics. Without really knowing and having no statistics, Just because our meditation technique feels bad or boring (maybe the wrong technique, maybe there is some better stuff available?). I didn't have any special genetics for meditation, meditation was hard and not pleasant at the beginning, that is why I didn't do too much at the start. Then I stumbled (or rather read about all the different systems) over the right technique, and to this day I marvel on how infinitely much better that made my life. Today, Selling water by the River, Self Help Mindset Flavor! ( : sorry, just kidding. But I really mean all of the above. Never limit the belief in what you can achieve. Of course, don't be unkind to yourself and overload you, but never stop believing! Here the 2-Year-Old with nearly most of his skin burned who went flying Air Force Jets, including the fastest of them: How do you think that 2-year-old would have gone for meditation? Get blocked my limiting beliefs?

Selling water by the river. Since "you" already are IT.

Selling Water by the River, todays water batch: Difference between Awakening and Enlightenment: Enlightenment: You had to cut/transcend every subtle separate sense feelings/thought (very subtle ones, very hard to spot). Then you are fully empty, which is your True Condition. Then, all separate self arisings arise in you, and move in you, but you are not only them. They move in you like the wind. The wind is also you, but you are not only the wind. They are fully transcended. Why is that necessary to fully understand Absolute Reality, or what You are? What you are can be fully empty. Like, nothing at all. Total Nothingness. When no arising is there, Absolute Reality/You is unaware of itself. But with the potential for sentience if something appears (for example, check Hawal and Massaro books). You are still there when all arisings disappear (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, your face before your parents were born). And if you want to understand what You are while forms still arising (like, in normal life), there can not be a subtle separate self/anything cutting the one infinite Unity of the Real You/Reality into a felt subject (Awareness) watching Infinity, even if it feels nondual or infinite. It has to become perceptions perceiving themself, no separate self anywhere to be found. You can not have separate Awareness separated from the field. The infinite field watches itself, literally does. And your body-mind moves in the Totality that you are. The thoughts and feelings of the former separate you are moving in in the True You like the wind. The bliss/love you generate in that state without needing anything external gives you autonomy from chasing externally generated bliss via experiences. It gives you total absolute freedom and love (Bassui below: You will be entirely free) If you understand that for your perspective, you understand that this holds for the structure of all perspectives/beings, for the whole Absolute Reality. Why? Because all perspectives are only form arising in the Absolute, any boundary from one perspective/being to another is either forgetting or form arising in Awareness, seeing itself. The advantage if do that sobre: You need a high developed state of nonduality/nonlocality/centerlessness/mere appearance of the visual bubble. You get that via meditation done correctly. Which doesn't need to be unpleasant or hard (although it normally takes quite a while), at least if done correctly, see for example Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown. If you feel centered in your head, and the outside world appears as solid, you can not understand the Nature of Reality, impossible. So this state is necessary for Enlightenment. But not sufficient. From that stage (Yoga of One Taste) for example, you can continue to dissolve the last remnants of the separate self (for example, Nonmeditation Yoga). And then you can have Insight into what you are. You will not miss that, its definitive. Also, and most important, you got a built in safety check/quality control: You will not cross over to full Enlightenment without fully transcending any and all separate self arising coming up (and the visual field being Nonduality, centerless and infinite). You can't fool yourself here. And you will understand when you are there. Why it is absolute. Awakening: The energetic state of Nonduality/Unity/Infinity with some remnants of separate self still not fully transcended, you can also get by Psychedelics. Which of course is useful in order to have an idea of the goal, a feedback loop to build this nonduality-state via meditation, on and off the pillow. But here, you get the nonduality/mere appearance with subtle remnants of the separate self still intact. You don't have the build in quality/safety mechanism of classic Full Enlightenment. So it is very easy to confuse these experiences for the final Realization of what you are. Everyone having experienced it claims this on the difference between Awakening and Enlightenment, see for example Frank Yang/Ralston/Wilber/Jac O'Keffee/Steven Wolinsky/... (anticipating certain feedback: "they are not awake, but enlightened". Well, with the definitions above I could agree). Enlightenment is in a different ballpark. And you can't imagine it without it fully happening. So it is not some mild form of "God-Realization", or Nothing. It is something of a different category. It is, to quote Ralston, fully understanding what You are and what Reality is. Without any separate self filters, however subtle, still active. So what happens if you value Psychedelic Awakenings or Understandings higher than fully being and realizing what you are? You guessed it: Reality doesn't let you off the hook, you still have psychological suffering. The separate self arisings cut you off from the full flow of love of your True Being for itself. So you need experiences to get this love flowing. For example the love you feel when understanding-experiences of the exquisite beauty of the design of Reality/Dimensions happen. Is anything with exploring Alien-Godminds wrong? For sure not, this understanding is probably among the most beautiful experiences you can have. I just feel it becomes problematic if you value getting the love the unenlightened separate self needs from these experiences, and valueing these understandings of Alien-Godminds higher than classic Enlighenment and fully understanding your True Nature, and resting in it. Why not pursue and value BOTH endevours on an at least equal basis? Not downplaying Enlightenment as somehow not on the same level or lower than any other insight into the appearance or form side of Reality (which is infinite). If what is stated above is correct, with one path one is lead to salvation (Enlightenment), and with the other path (Understanding/Awakenings), well.... best regards from Maya, but you get a medal from her with distinction for playing her game on the highest level possible. For the readers: You will probably not achieve higher level of bliss and love than your teacher using his teachings. And how these levels will develop: Well, we are in the prime seats here to see how it will continue. I don' think I have a high chance of convincing Leo. So that means that the job of convincing to develop via suffering (or hopefully only not being as happy and loving than one could be) stays where it always has been, and ever will be: Maya, CEO of Samsara. All the best, enjoy the ride and the show, and Namaste! Selling Bullshit Water by the River. PS: There is already water by the River, so I am too lazy to carry Bulls**t there. ( : Bassui: “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. ... If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none.

Dear Leo, let's conclude it for today, it is late over here. I let the videos of the poems of Meister Eckhart, which I posted in my last post interestingly a minute before your reply, speak for itself. Every reader can then feel to which perspective their hearts and souls resonate. I believe that in your perspective you feel that way, and perceive that us true. May all beings find the most direct way to resting in their true nature and their own innate bliss. Namaste!

Truth, Beauty, and Goodness

There is an appearance of the forum you can see in your perspective. That mere appearance is absolute truth. It appears. You can not discuss its appearance away. A lot of interpretations-arisings-thoughts/feelings of it (like it being out-there on your screen, not appearing in You), or on who is reading that (separate-self arisings) , are.... well, not on absolutely solid standing... But take caution when going from the relative side of the street to the absolute side of the street. The wrong exits are: Nihilism (there is no appearance of a forum) and its twin brother: Eternalism (the forum is out there as self-existing objective objects).

If I understand you correctly, that experience of the brilliant design of Reality brings you joy, beauty and love. The Good, True and Beautiful. Love, Understanding and Beauty. These experiences have motivated humanity since the beginning. At least a part of it ( : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals I can understand you here very well. I feel the same. Yet... if you mainly feel this love when having a beautiful understanding or insight into Reality, or God, Alien-Mind, whatever, then you don't have these experiences that open your heart on a permanent constant basis in everday life. And that is exactly the problem, which makes that approach to a high level Atman-Project. If you need these experience of understanding (the True of the triple Good,True and Beautiful) to get the love that is at the core of your True Being, then its something you don't have all the time. That love would also flow fully when you rest in your True Nature without a separate self blocking the flow of this love. Resting in your True Being in everyday life brings you this. It really does. The source of this love is your True Being, when the flow is not interrupted by any filter, lense of perception, localized center or separate self. After writing something tending a bit on the touchy side, I really hesitate to conclude with Selling water by the River. But it needs to be done, to not loose the humour inherent of this great illusion of ours: Selling water by the river, today including the fragrency of the Transcendetals "Truth, Beauty and Goodness"

Sorry, my paragraph you refer to (below) was not intended for you. It was a general statement concerning the goal of maximum exploration/understanding of form/manifestation mechanism: "And my only humble suggestion is: Before you go running exploring that which you can never finish [understanding as much as possible of an infinite reality] in this lifetime: Why not look deeply into the abyss of your own true being (which contains all form, but never is form, getting to the point where there is so much no center that all perceptions see themselves), learn to keep that ongoing in daily life, and be happy and in bliss, and go exploring these Alien-Minds then?" Sorry that this wasn't clear. And great that you are generally very happy!

Michael Taft once said something along the lines of: If you choose a teacher, be aware that someday if you succeed in her/his teaching, you could become similiar to her/him. In aspects such as general emotional state, happiness, loving kindness, or living a life free of psychological suffering. That is possible in realizing your True Nature, as countless enlightened beings have demonstrated. Or in becoming frequently suffering, unhappy, sometimes not so loving, like every other separate self that is not transcended in Enlightenment. You can chase your own tail, grasping for as much understanding as possible of the manifestation mechanism of your own infinite creation. And since an infinite Mind/Reality can manifest infinite realms, you can only investigate an infinitesimal fraction of it. An infinitesimal part of it. To say it in a non-mathematical way: Like, really next to nothing of it. Not totally 0, but practically nothing. As low as you can get, before getting at absolute 0. Thats the first big question mark one could see in that approach. You will never get "there", whereever "there" is. When will you be happy and free? Which understanding will bring that? But hey, the essence of the separate self is dissatisfaction, which it tries to cure not by deeply looking into its own nature, but by doing something else. That something else varies. Ken Wilber hat written a book on that, "The Atman Project". There he describes a ladder/pyramid of stages of Atman projects. Something that every separate self does to ease its suffering. It doesnt want to let go of its separate self, or doesnt know how, but something must be done to ease the regularly arising suffering. I must admit that understanding as much as possible of the manifestation mechanisms of infinite realms (while being assured its only an infinitesimal small are of yourself in your lifetimes) ranks pretty high on that kind of "Maslow-Pyramid" or Atman Project Pyramid. Probably more or less at its utmost top limit of development. Just an idea: Maybe is the circumstance that you dont get freedom from psychological suffering from that approach of trying to understand as much as possible of the relative manifestations of Spirit, a certain hint from Reality. That you go on trying to understand as much as possible, suffering from time to time all along the way, grasping for understanding indefinitely long, until by whatever influences you get enlightened, and really understand and know your True Nature. And then go exploring and understanding, but happily ever after and lovingly, or go fishing, or whatever you feel like then. Maybe is the fact that after you have had the Understanding that Enlightenment brings that you can live permanently in freedom from psychological suffering and that you can then literally create your own happiness by just resting in your true nature (without separate self arisings bringing dissatisfactions) a certain pointer? A certain indicator on the value of understanding Ultimate Reality (Enlightenment) vs. understanding relative manifested reality, or its manifesting mechanisms? And concerning the frog, the following just arose in my mindstream: A nice Koan would be: Did the frog that we have thrown into the blender had Buddha-Nature? If not sure on the answer, one can be sold for sure some water by the river. Disclaimer: While making this Koan, no imaginative frogs were hurt. Namaste and bon voyage ( :

We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. ― Kalu Rinpoche Love says: I am everything. Wisdom says: I am nothing. Between the two my life flows. ― Nisargadatta

> Everyone trying to prove that their own maps/methods of awakening is right. Thats why I prefer selling water by the River. No story or map/method is absolutely true. But some make more happy than others.... >Nobody knows. Nobody knows: Safer than if somebody knows... Sorry, just kidding ( : > just work on your direct experience and getting what is true. Fully agree. Who else kind find out what you are than you?

Imagine when all perspectives/beings of the Absolute are switched off. Nothing or totally infinite. Something like Deep-Sleep for all perspectives/beings. "It" would initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. Then a water-pistol is being imagined. Because is in the Nature of the Infinite to imagine form. Or a planet. Et voila, you have appearance, duality, form, and self-awareness. Very nicely described by the way in Benthino Massaros in "Spiritual Conversations with a Skeptic: On God Consciousness and The Absolute". Whatever you may think about the guy, the book is nice. Then imagine that this orginally unaware infinity forgets all other perspectives/beings "in space". Only "your" perspective is known in your case. You know whats forgetting in time is (what did you do exactly one year ago, for example), so something like that is also possible in space. You are just not aware of them right now. Check this picture, and notice the non-euclidian-space: Infinite perspectives. In this non-euclidian space, infinite perspectives fit in. You see only one of these perspectives, but Leavitt has had this vision with seeing an infinite amount in non-euclidian space. And the crazy thing is: You think (I assume at least : ) that you are located somewhere, head or body. But these arisings that feel like this being-locatedness can completely drop away, if you are able to spot them fast enough, and are familiar with them. Awareness has no location. You can never ever find it. The appearance bubble of each perspective/being is self-aware, perceptions perceiving themselves. Potentially as mere appearance, but with Karma/ignorance rock solid material/out there. But it CAN be seen as mere appearance. And once its not solid anymore one time, its proven that the solidity has only been fake appearance, never really has been like that, just appeared. That solidity is optional, if so imagined. But when you remove all these separation and being-located-feeling-arisings: The structure of your perspective reveals itself (perceptions perceiving itself, no center/awareness-location anywhere). Any maybe you can imagine that these appearances can become infinitely complex. But they are the real You, arising in you, as you, perceiving itself. And in that way the awareness of the abyss of awareness that you are (you can never define it, find it, measure it: INFINITE. Not finite). And you are also all appearances, nondual and infinite style. And if you switch it all off, all appearances/perspectives off, in all perspectives that you imagine in parallel and forget, you are back to square one. And that is the infinitely simple core of you: An Absolute Reality initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience as soon as something shows up, in any perspective. And its not located in 3D-Space. 3D-Space is imagined in you, as object. And you can't go anywhere, can't disappear, can't die. You can only imagine to do so ( : And fully understanding the structure of you own perspective (the appearances of the visual field as mere appearance, insubstantial hologram-like (Yoga of One Taste), the whole perspective being infinite because 3D-space is also something imagined in you, and especially not believing ANY separate self-arisings arising in you (which needs a lot of practice to spot them fast enough, and see them arising and moving in you as objects), then you get and understand is what this perspective of yours is. And that awarness has radically no location. That awareness is really radically no-thing. Yet Awareness happens, perceptions perceiving themself. No lense of perception remains.It feels like the whole field is self-aware, perceptions perceiving themselves. But the field can imagine any kind of identity, location or lense, or ideas about itself. Then imagine there are no appearances, all switched off: The infinite Reality, initially unaware of itself, but potentially aware with sentience as soon as a appearance shows up. And this insight is valid for all perspectives, since any real boundary between perspectives would be just an arising, nothing solid, and not the Infinite Awareness. So it is understood that these insights must be valid for all perspectives/beings. But of course, people way smarter and wiser just would say: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! Or the One Hand claps. As always, selling water by the River that is you. Bon voyage. PS: Maybe you can find a few Alien Godmind in the non-euclidian space of perspectives in the picture. For sure a fun ride...

> Consciousness is about grasping higher, not reducing down to a bottom line. You can go higher in appearances in consciousness. What is this consciousness? What is the real You? Does that have a higher or lower? What is that Singularity? > The mistake is trying to reduce Consciousness to some bottom line. I agree on that. You can't reduce Reality to anything. And Reality/True You is aware, perceptions seing themselves... No location, no higher or lower, infinite in every aspect, but able to manifest it all and be aware of it. And the appearances and perspectives can be higher or lower, more encompassing or not.

Presence, and Ego, even Ego-loss, and consciousness (being aware of some arisings) gets switched off every night in deep sleep, at least for most. So these things can potentially switched off, without the Real You and the bottom line of existence getting switched off. Can the Real You be something that is not constant? That gets switched on and off? Is that the bottom line of existence? And if he was talking about the Real Bottom Line of Existence, or the One Hand clapping: Why is that not enough? Was it really the One Hand clapping? For all others hearing the One Hand Clapping, it was enough. As always: Just selling Water by the River.

I agree. Ego-Loss and Presence is not final Enlightenment. Ego-Loss and Presence would be Roger Thisdells stage 3 and 4, a more or less transparent Witness, and that can include Nonduality and Unity-states. Not his stage 5, True No-Self, or final Enlightenment. His videos are on Youtube, see my previous posts. At the end, when only the individuality-feeling of the Transparent Witness remains, and even that is seen as moving in the True You or Reality/Infinite Consciousness itself, among with all other mere appearances of the Visual Field, then there is insight into the Ultimate Nature of Reality and your True Self. Not before. That is called Great Enlightenment in Zen, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. All small Enlightenments before are called Kenshos or smaller Satoris (Nonduality, Unity, certain Ego-losses). But the final and total drop of the separate self arisings is the Great Enlightenment, the insight into the nature of Existence/Reality and the real You. Version 1, Peter Ralston: Peter Ralston: "So you know enlightenment is you yourself becoming conscious of what's true, directly conscious of what's true, like what you are or what existence is, no more than that". Version 2, The Supreme Source, God-Realization Dzogchen-style: My intuition is with the importance you lay on God-Realization: Never stop short - on which I fully agree. Thats the worst mistake one can do - stop short in understand what You and Ultimate Reality really are. I really agree on that. Apparently, understanding that everything is just appearance arising in the True You, Reality itself, and what that True You and Ultimate Reality are, is paramount. But why aim for understanding all of the endless/infinite perspectives (Alien Minds, whatever...) that work together to give rise to all these appearances, when by definition its infinite and endless (n+1) and never can be fully understood, and call that God-Realization, and give it a higher meaning than the Full Classic Enlightenment? Isn't Ultimate Reality the final Godhead? Infinite other dimensions run and understood by other Alien Godminds? Aren't these other realms not just... more appearances arising in Ultimate Reality? Why place more importance on these insights, which by definition can never be complete, than on the understanding of the "wetness" of each wave of appearances in the ocean of Ultimate Reality? Which by the way, is the definition of final Enlightenment (or Great Enlightenment in Zen, see Kapleau three pillars. Not the preliminary ones, Kenshos and smaller Satoris, which show Nonduality and various other facets). But the real thing, like Ralston said, what Reality is and what You really are. Why not get the wetness and bliss of the ocean in your everyday-life, and then go exploring the Alien Godminds? Or do you aim for that with exploring the Alien Godminds? As always: Review the perspectives, and if one doesn't like the kind of water that is being sold here at the river, look deeply into yourself if you are not already the river... ( : He who knows the well doesn't drink out of the jar. And doesn't angry on other jars. PS: And besides, in exploring these Alien-Godminds, I think you are doing an awesome pioneering job, stuff for the history books in the future. What would really delight me is if you find within yourself a place living from which brings you a radiating bliss and love in your everyday life 24/7, and freedom from psychological suffering. All the best and bon voyage!

Maybe you can't reach your head around this because it is a true what you write? Godhead could be defined as Reality itself "seen/been" from a perspective/being where no arisings/form happen (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, 5 MeO,....). Understanding the true nature of Reality when form arises as appearances in You contains a deep understanding of the nature of the Godhead also (when it is deep enough, with zero separate self identities still being believed, not believed as subject but seen arising as objects). And the Alien Understanding is then understanding about the structure of these/certain structures arising in reality, even if its pretty subtle and pretty formless. With enough training, you can see these understandings arise and moving in the Reality that you are, being elaborated into further understandings later. Reality/Consciousness does all this understanding of the different perspectives/beings. As always, review the perspectives and draw your own conclusions, and choose the perspective with which you resonate most deeply. And more specific: Are you happy when you fully understand the wetness of the (infinite) ocean and understand and become the wetness of the ocean, or do you need to understand the structure of every wave of certain sub-fractal, for example "low-pressure-vortex-area/Alien God-Mind" in an infinitely large ocean?

9 hours ago, Water by the River said: Whatever the meaning or Referent of this concept/word is , it would just be more form. Even if its a very subtle appearance or formless understanding. Just more arisings. @Aurum: Luckily, we did get a timely answer: Alien FORMS of consciousness and intelligence. I fully believe Leo that he experienced this, and its fascinating stuff. For sure, there are those perspectives/intelligences creating and keeping the game running. That is the stuff that humanity will probably focus on the explore in the next 1000 years and beyond, if not a mishappen asteroid or so comes along.... So Leo is a pioneer of the highest degree, for sure. And maybe after 1000 years we will play the UFOs on some other planets or dimensions, or create our own little dimensions or whatever, and appear as these Alien intelligences. Who knows? But lets say reality is really infinite (as pretty much everbody and most spiritual texts agree on): Its infinite turtles all the way up. N+1. You never reach the top. If you understood that Alien Universe-Creator/Manager, you can go understood his "boss". And the next. And so on, forever. So form doesn't stop. And the content of every perspective, of the alien forms of consciousness and intelligence, are by definition form. It is all arisings. So it is an infinity "upwards", see Leos Video on Infinity Part 2, Cantors Set Theory. It will never stop. No reason not to explore, if you have fun doing it. I am curious for which shows are ongoing, for sure.The one Absolute Subject watching all of that, Reality itself or You, doesnt have form. It would limit Reality. This realization is the core of classic Enlightenment. And knowing the Absolute of Reality is knowing the infinite Abyss of Consciousness: It is not form. "It" is the only "thing" (I know...) that is not form, neither subtle or not. It is the Real You (not the separate self arisings in you). It is Reality itself. If no arisings happen in your perspective it is Nirvikalpa or Deep Sleep, if arisings happen in you perspective, it's perceptions perceiving themselves. With or without a separate self-arising going on. That is by the way the structure of all perspectives/beings being imagined by Ultimate Reality. Any Identity/I-feeling-arising is form. Any understanding is an appearance. Why? Its not permanent. It comes and goes. Its not you. It arises in you. And my only humble suggestion is: Before you go running exploring that which you can never finish in this lifetime: Why not look deeply into the abyss of your own true being (which contains all form, but never is form, getting to the point where there is so much no center that all perceptions see themselves), learn to keep that ongoing in daily life, and be happy and in bliss, and go exploring these Alien-Minds then? Why go exploring on an endless journey with so much urgency while still not being happy, because a separate self still creates dis-satisfaction (which by definition it does to keep the game/illusion going). How would you call a game that keeps you dissatiesfied searching for the highest form of Alien Intelligence, when there are an infinite number of them out there, chasing your own tail? What is it that keeps the whole illusion running? The separate self at its core has to generate dis-satisfation, to keep some activity going on. Not that it winds down and one actually looks into the absolutely formless abyss of ones own Being and Reality, sees the separate self building blocks arising as those elements that cause the dis-satisfaction in the first place, and lives happily ever after. Would be bad for the show if everybody did that. Luckily, that risk will not arise soon. Especially since we see here a new and creative form of that activity of chasing your own tail, so to say the highest evolved version of that until now, in some sense really the cutting edge of that aspect of humanity. And please nobody say that I am saying it is not worth exploring the Alien Superminds. That is part of the fascinating show. My only suggestion would be to do it in a way that makes you honestly happy and loving. And for that I would recommend you buying a bottle of water at the river saying: "Look deeply into your being, and check what reality is, what you are, if that makes you happy and loving or not, and check if its maybe already water. From the river". As always: Review the perspectives and draw your own conclusion on what resonates within you. And think about if you want to be happy/loving while resting in your True Nature and then go exploring the Alien-Whatevers of the Multiverse, or go on that trip with a separate self very well intact, causing regularly returning dissatisfaction & unloving, and having from time to time some great highs in merging and understanding those Alien-Godminds.

@aurum "If by alien supermind you are referring to Leo’s latest insights about Alien Consciousness, I would say we have no idea yet what Leo even means by this. " Whatever the meaning or Referent of this concept/word is , it would just be more form. Even if its a very subtle appearance or formless understanding. Just more arisings. What is it that is aware of all of that? And what happens with that in Deep Sleep? What is that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself if nothing appears, but has the innate potential for sentience? That which can never not be? If that understanding manifests in your mindstream and daily everday-life, I would be interested in how happy and blissful you are on a permanent basis. And how much you would still grasp about the Alien... But then you would probably anyway go looking about this interesting Alien Supermind, but with a big smile on your face. When such a show comes into town.... I would go looking.... ( : PS: I am really curious what kind of stuff will be dragged in from the Multiverse into our little comfy imagined reality in the next decades... Hopefully nothing that is too hungry for some poor souls... ( : But hey, if you look into history, they dragged quite some weird and hungry stuff from god knows which dimensions.... many of the first contactees could later be visited in insane asylums.

Stylistically, (not the content), this reminded me on something I read in Strassman, DMT and the Soul of Prophecy: A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible Chapter 6 THE HEBREW BIBLE’S MODEL The previous chapter ended with my concluding that the psychological, biophysical, Buddhist, or shamanic models I had brought to my research, or studied soon thereafter, did not satisfactorily account for all aspects of the DMT experience. They rejected the possibility that the contents of the DMT experience were objectively real, did not sufficiently attend to the highly interactive nature of the state, suffered from ethical shortcomings, or lacked cultural compatibility. As I worked my way through the Hebrew Bible, the notion of prophecy began to press upon me. While its detailed characteristics were still vague, it clearly was a form of spiritual experience replete with voices, visions, extreme emotional and physical effects, and novel insights. In these respects, it resonated with the DMT volunteers’ reports. Even more compelling was that prophecy was interactive and relational. It was an exchange between humans and a usually invisible level of reality, one that is external, freestanding, and absolutely objective, at least as real as everyday life. Angels with characteristics much like the DMT beings populated that world, as did God, who created and sustained that world as well as this one. Those beings and God interacted with humans and with each other in much the same way as the research subjects described their own interactions with beings, and beings’ interactions with each other, in the DMT state.

@axiom Fully agree on all points. I should have added some concluding remark from the Absolute side of the street, not everything from the Relative side of the street. >There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path. Totally agree, but for sake of teaching-efficiacy, the Mahamdura-system throws the stick with which one pokes and blazes the fire only into the fire when the fire is sufficiently burning. In the Mahamudra-System (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown), there is only effort or artifical activity (or a person) involved up until and including the stage 3 of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual). One learns to cut all thought- and emotion-arisings fast enough (Stage 1& 2). When one is proficient enough in that, the visual field starts getting nondual (Stage 3), the separation perceived before drops away, and the visual field gets an appearance-only quality, empty, hologram-style. Then, at stage 4 (Nonmeditation Yoga), this effort or artifical activity (or believing in a person or agent doing these things) gets dismantled, because cutting off the Illusion-thought-arisings has become fast enough and automatic. Together with that, the concept of a doer/person/agent gets pointed out as another concept, and the meditation does itself. Here, the mindstream aligns for the first time with the real state of things, that an understanding can happen there really is no person, just a bundle of I-thoughts/I-feelings arising. And of course, there was no person/individual in the past, only an apparant Gestalt that looked like that, and which one used to overlay ones true being (Infinite Conciousness or Reality itself) with, there isnt one now, and there never can or will be, only as an illusion or overlay on the real nature of things. Ones True Being is able to generate this illusion (magnificienlty), but is not dependend on it. The show can happen without it. But reality can generate this illusion. Basically then one goes full Tony Parsons (there is no person, nothing needs to be done), but only at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga and not before. If you do it before, certain qualities are not generated that one needs to conform to the enlightened mind (nonduality, mere-appearance/imagined hologram-like quality of the visual field, infinitesness of the visual field, space not as independend self-existing "thing" but sth. imagined in consciousness which consciousness doesnt need to imagine, time and memory happening in it now, that one cant get out of it because there is no outside, and some other stuff). And when all of that is in place, Basis-Enlightenment or Crossing Over can happen, which Brown describes (among other things): " Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btagspa), which drops away. … The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space " The description of enlightenment as a dropping away of any kind of separate-identity/person/individual arising is universal in all enlightenment descriptions. Don't worry, by definition, the real you can't go away - ever. Only an illusion is seen through and understood. And the real you can generate the separate-self Illusion-show, so nothing really is lost. Whats more fundamental is still there. So It sounds more negative than it is. Leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space: And if you have become so impersonal or universal consciousness (nondual) that you can have that state of huge nonduality/mere appearance of the visual field/infiniteness sobre, well then you have deconstructed your separate self enough. This is the Gate-Keeper of the Gateless Gate. This deconstruction is better said a high-speed-search-task-and-cutting-off of separate self illusion-arisings (I-feelings, I-thoughts, Trekchö-Style), and that is what boosts the nonduality and mere appearance aspect of the visual field, which is exactly what you can also boost with psychedelics, but with much more of the separate-self illusions still staying intact.... Frank Yang called that once the God-Mind-state. >From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going. Fully agree. And if it can happen natty in Nonduality-States, it can even more easily happen with doing only/mainly Psychedelics, because among other things, they exactly boost that Nonduality/mere apperance/infinite state. And if the separate self arisings are not fully seen through, you can get quite a show. And by the way, as Ken Wilber said, people doing both meditation and psychedelics, get the most out of it, so I am not against Psychedelics at all. Somebody made a very nice youtube-Channel on looking deep into the Abyss or Nothingness that precedes Nonduality: Prior to Non-Duality https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show... Beautiful video on that by Jac O'Keffee: and now, walking from the Relative Side of the Street a bit more towards its Absolute Side: In actuality, there is nobody selling water by the river, and nobody is buying it... And the short form, of all written above is: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! Enjoy the ride!

Thats true. Although it can take quite a while without psychedelics. That stage was variously called the One Taste (Yoga of One Taste), Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind, .... But who or what is aware of that? At that stage, there is still some nebulous murky identity arising, watching or being aware of this Nondual Big Self. Even in this Nonduality/Unity, there are the last remnants of the separate self (very subtle, hard to spot, takes some training) still arising. Roger Thisdell has some nice youtube-videos on that: Not Self - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (4/5) In Roger Thisdells System, it is his stage 4, which is beyond his stage 3 Big Mind, which is already Nondual (One Taste/Yoga of One Taste, Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind) with a already much reduced separate self. Stage 3 can have full Nonduality/Unity, with the separate self much more intact than the pretty empty Not-Self of stage 4 (which has just Individuality or a murky Subject-Object left). It is Ken Wilber Empty Witness, Daniel Brown "Individuality", Jac O'Keeffe "Identity", Greg Goode transparent witness vs. opaque witness, Nisargadattas and Stephen Wolinskis Brahman vs. Parabrahman). One can find this stage in every system: Infinite Nonduality/Unity with the remnants of a separate self, some kind of identity or indviduality/separateness. And the last stage in his system, stage 5, Enlightenment: True No Self and No Centre - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (5/5) And then perceiving this boundless infinite field of mere appearance of your Awareness Bubble/reality/infinity, and then dissolving the last arising remnants of any remaining subject arisings perceiving this nondual infinity. These can be very subtle, "no-self"-arisings perceiving infinity, but still some subjectivity/individuality sensation/arisings remaining. But these arisings of any form of subject/individuality can still be seen as objects hovering in the infinite field/Suchness that you are. Don't worry, your True Self will still be there afterwards if these separate-self remnants dissolve. Then one can understand why it is so often said there is nothing beyond this stage. Because it is you, it is Existence itself, see the Ralston Video. To learn these last tricks of the separate self, you need enough time in these states, and the right techniques, (for a suggestion see below, no artifical activity), and then the One Hand Claps. How to do that? I like the Nonmeditation-Yoga in Daniels Browns "Pointing out the Great Way". Learn to automize the meditation (on the pillow and in daily life) of cutting off these separate self arisings, so that no more of what he calls "artifical activity" is necessary, because any effort at that stage done by a doer/separate self arising prevents the realization. It has to become fully automized. Definition of concepts Awakening, Enlightenment and No-Self: I believe we got a lot of different meanings of what we mean by No-Self, and Awakening and Enlightenment. Enlightenment: If Enlightenment is knowing what you are and what existence is, being able to stay in that knowledge in everday life: That has an endpoint: You know what you are and what existence is. And that brings permanent happiness and bliss. Of course you can suffer when you have bodily pain, but psychological suffering is gone. Resting in your True Nature generates bliss by itself. And that is the same as True No-Self, which is the same as True Self, because it is Reality and the core or Buddha-Nature of every being. But here, words loose their meaning, because reality has no opposite. No-Self: The real No-Self is not just giving up the Personality/Ego and going to the Witness (opaque or transparent, which can even be Nondual Kosmic Consciousness/Nature Mysticism style) with something still watching. That something can be mostly empty, just a transparent witness, but it still has the last duality of some kind of individuality. Problem is: This is something one only fully understands when these remnant-arisings of individuality are gone. If there is no separate self having individuality, the universe is watching itself, appearances watching themselves, thoughts are arising in immense vastness as objects, floating through you like the sound of a bird, and the feeling of being something separate is also seen as object in immense vastness. See Roger Thisdell stage 5. Awakening: If one defines Awakening as knowing all the manifestation mechanisms in this or any other dimension, then one perspective/being can be more awake than another. But: Infinity means there are endless dimensions. And a few thoughts on Genetics and Meditation: I believe that using the right meditation techniques at the right stage are essential, more so than genetics. Good techniques change along the path, check for example Pointing Out the Great Way by Daniel Brown. Classic Self-Help-Mindset: I would never let my success and drive be limited by such a limiting belief genetics <-> meditation. Do the the best with the Karma you have. Give it a try! The biggest heros are those who go furthest with the worst genetics/Karma. How do you know if you are limited, if you dont't fully try? Maybe you are not? And of course use Psychedelics on top, why not? If anybody is annoyed by this attempt to Sell water by the River: Please review the perspectives, do your own experiments, and review the outcome. My suggestion would be in judging if any insight is valueable, worthwhile, and higher: Does it bring the understanding of what you are and what reality is, beyond any doubt? Does it bring permanent satisfaction and bliss? And don't worry: Its already what you are, covered by lots of mistaken identities, and it is the only thing you can not loose. The only stuff you can loose are arising appearances, confusions/ignorance of what you think you are. By the way, does anybody read that until the end here?