Water by the River

Hi Trenton, deciding factor for me was a very efficient meditation system (Mahamudra), outlined in "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown", and several other books. I have rudimentary to average knowledge of most meditation systems, and this one is unique. In my humble perspective, the highest developed system on the planet (most people praciticing and refining it in Tibet for the longest time of any system, at least to my knowledge). It details the steps and what happens like no other system I am aware of. If you try that, and add some psychedelics, at least in my perspective that is the best shot you have. And you can not know what your future path brings. Balance your life, and see what comes! Bon voyage! Water by the River

Agree. My example-guy up there at least didn't get cold in the first place, contrary to Wim

Dear M A J I, the claims that psychedelic (exploration, understanding, whatever) is superior to Realization with meditation or meditation+psychedlics will continue for the foreseeable future for many many years. Because, you know, among other things, sitting in meditation can be less fun than dropping the magic pills. . And meditation Realization affectionados claiming that the cycle of suffering can end, approving of which would rock the psychedelic-only-boat a bit too much. Because it would mean while suffering that not the favourite psychedlic/magic pill/whatever project of the separate self would be indicated, buuut stop, sit on the pillow, and marvel at the many wonders maya can throw at you to get you back to playing along her game. But lets not do the bear manouver: Causes duality, raises the blood pressure, and just isn't as cool as can be. If then the psychedlic only fraction wises up, realizes that the bear manouever is a bit less than sovereign and implies "other", and then also chills doing it the coooool way, then we all can sing along happily with the Black Eyed Peas.... I know, that is not going to happen, world-peace is also not right around the corner. But maybe some get inspired to join the chill-team? Water by the River

Sorry N+1 dimensions... Or is Infinity not infinitely large? But fun and interesting to explore for sure. Until its no longer so. Then, something else is played... Hey, its a free country. Every being has the right to play its favourite game. But "without underlying motives such as escaping suffering"... Good luck with that (honestly!) & fun on the journey and Bon Voyage Water by the River

Yes. I thought for a long time that the Absolute is maybe somehow "behind" space, or being bigger than the Visual Field (that was already at least sometimes nondual at that point in time). Or that it encompasses the visual field. At some points, it dawns on oneself that all of these "probings", attempts, investigations.... are just more arisings happening within you. And the space is imagined IN YOU. If you try to looke for this line, drawing this line, imagining this line, you imagine it WITHIN the space you imagine. It all appears or is being imagined. You will never find the Absolute in any object, any arising, any location. Any self, any appearance, any anything. But this process of "emptying out" everything, to fully BECOME it, to see each an any arising (thought, appearance, understanding, whatever,n+1) as arising in YOU, you have to become fully empty. Nothingness. But yet, that process has to be walked earnestly to the final end, and can not be shortcut. Also because the Absolute is also infinite, IN-FINITE. Nothing you can measure, find, define. Nothing finite. No arising/appearance, however subtle. Even formless arisings (thoughts, formless subtle level lightshow, whatever), are not it. Because IT is timeless. Always there. Formless arisings also come and go. Nice book on that topic: Szyper, Infinite Consciousness. And then, when You are fully empty, you can be fully everyting, nondual. A more concise formulation, and much more beautiful than my ramblings above: “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.” ― Kalu Rinpoche Perfect. If the thinking can solve all open existential questions, you can rest in the Suchness that you are. Nonmeditation-Yoga. You cut off all separate self arisings in real time (since you are proficient enough in that "cutting off" immediately when these "thought-capsules" arise out of consciousness. They havent even been elaborated out, that comes later. Funny thing is, at some point you notice they emerge with the full content of the thought already "in there", and that gets elaborated later and more slowly. The Skill of Reckognition in Daniel Browns "Pointing Out the Great Way". Getting that high-speed cut-off in place triggered for me the step from just cutting thoughts/separate self arisings, aka emptying the mindstream while the "external" world is still solid & out there, to the visual field getting nondual, centerless, luminous mere appearance. So that transforms the Visual Field slowly to mere groundless appearances. You feeling localized ends, the localization dissolves. My theory for that (but I have no proof), is that the Endohuasca-System of the body gets activiated. To cut off efficiently all "Great Doubts/Questions", as I termed them for myself, like the questions above on the nature of space/time/separate self, you need to understand the answer and "how it works". Or you push through with Koan-Meditation concentration-style. That also works, but I feel very sure that this would have taken me 5-10 times longer, and would have been much much (!) more unpleasant. How to "finish" time Mahamudra/Pointing Out the Great Way Style, and end up at the so called "Always Here Mind", the eternal or rather timeless Infinite Consciousness, thats another topic. If you are interested let me know. That is described for example in the Yoga of Unelaboration Chapter of Pointing Out the Great Way. Assumption/Theory: Meditation-induced and body-produced Endohuasca (DMT, 5-MeO, ....): What I assume is that a certain level of proficiency of cutting/transcending of the "harder/deeper" searate self arisings, and the "hard/deeper" existential questions (like space/time/....), or transcending and letting them just play out, but being aware of them as objects, being able to cut them anytime, see their arisings out of consciousness, their flow with in, and their disappearance, triggers probably some kind of Endohuasca-System, your body producing similiar chemicals (DMT,5-MeO, MAO-Inhibitors....) that you can also trip with when supplying them externally. To trigger that means staying in full mindfulness for a long time, having taken the meditation off the pillow and not getting distracted. The effects are very similiar to Psychedelics (nonduality, luminous mere appearance, groundlessness of all appearance, Infinity, timelessness, even shutting off the separate self/Ego (although not completely mostly. Some quite subtle feeling/filters/lenses of perceptions of Individuality (sth watching sth.) often remain): https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ and that gives you the multiple hundreds/maybe thousands of hours that one needs in the "nondual timless infinite mere appearance visual field state" to get aware of every last subtle separate self arising. But that can be done in everyday life, at least while not being distracted too much. Of course, getting previews by psychedelics to confirm that there is something to be reached, to get to know the Nondual Infinite Field of mere appearance, maybe even visiting the causal Whiteout-Godhead of Infinite Potential: Awesome. But probably will not suffice in most cases to get one "on the other side". Then, finally, at the very end, the separate self is just a very very subtle feeling of individuality. Body, Location, Duality, time, all have gone a long time ago. Its just an Infinity of groundless mere appearance visual field showing up, limitless, already nondual(!) and luminous/mere appearing. And "a" nothing that is only aware of that. Like nearly nothing at all. Very very subtle and murky. Roger Thisdells No-Self, stage 4. And then you are ready for the Big Bang, that then can happen all by itself. Sudden Awakening. One can not force it. Crossing over happens by itself, resting long enough in that state, and letting it ripen. If one wants to do that only by tripping... well, I never read from or about one case where Full Enlightenment/Realization actually worked. But maybe there are cases. It takes too much time to get rid of the last subtle veils of the separate self, and by tripping you can also be distracted by the show/understanding/whatever. It always reads like some separate-self elements still well and alive and not transcended, no fully empty "No-Self" having looked totally in to the Abyss of Nothingness,but having had the hell of an infinite nondual mere appearance experience of a (for sure) very interesting visual field bubble or God or Alien or I don't know what. Plenty of stuff in the Multiverse to explore and understand, especially considering that it goes upwards the Holon-Pyramid forever (Planet-Monad creating/maintaining all perspectives on it, Galaxy-Monad, Universe-Monad, Multiverse-Monad, n+1). And plenty of stuff of the properties of God to project on the remains of the separate self... You are very welcome. I believe there are two elements installed in the universe, in order to not give Maya every advantage (she already has enough): 1.The radiating bliss/love of the Realized Being. 2. Any separate self teaching "down from up high" with any "superiority-raditation", marveling at its own ingeniuty/superiority is normally just keeping the illusion going, because: If you are all, how can you be superior to anything? Compassion and humility, and helping "others" look around the next corner of their own path, is indicated. Not sustaining the illusion with "I see the Matrix", and its "Saul Goodman". Sorry And luckily, that attitude isn't very sexy for the fellow seekers, see point 2. above. On the other side, how are realized Dzogchen-Realizers depicted in Tibetan Buddhism: Radiating great humor. Why? Nothing "other" holy anywhere.... at least nothing where making jokes is forbidden. But not a condencending/superiority humor that has fallen in love with itself. Because what is there that a "you" could be "superior" to? Superior to another aspect of Your Own Being? Easy way to cut reality in two or create duality, so a rather not so smart idea.... To tell the difference between these two kinds of humors, the hard-wirings of humans are usually quite well calibrated. Selling Water by the River

Hi Mike, I am not sure if I fully get your questions. If my answer below is not on topic, please excuse, and let me know. Below are some ramblings on the topic of space, and how it developed for me going from "self-existing-reality-aspect" to "imagined in Reality/Infinite Consciousness". which was one of the deciding steps boosting nonduality/mere groundless appearance in everyday life, making the constant intuiting of fundamental Nothingness/Reality much more proficient. At least for me, space itself was one of the last things to go from "self-existing" to imagined. "Time" as concept goes before, and is replaced by the Always Here Mind/Reality. Space is one of the first "Archetypes" necessary for manifestation in this dimension, and one of the last things to be seen through. Space is not fundamental (or self-existing), it is also imagined. Space (any kind, 3D, 4D, non-euclidian, whatever. Infinite amounts of different space-dimensions in Mathematics) is not any kind of Absolute Reality. It took me a long time to get this, thinking along quite similiar lines of thought as these you write above. Space is normally seen as such a fundamental that (at least for me) didn't even considering questioning that, or rather wondered how space "fits into the picture" of Ultimate Reality,which has cost me quite some time. The perspectives of Consciousness/Reality of the Leavitt picture (hyperbolic Euclidian Space of Visual Fields Bubbles, see previous posts) are not situated in any kind of space. The "Absolute or Nothingness/Primary Consciousness/Reality unaware of itself when no arising is imagined" is more fundamental than space. It is fundamentally totally spaceless. Space is imagined in it. As one of the first arisings. If there is nothing, there is no kind of space. Just Infinite Potential. See the Massaros Waterpistol example (Conversations with a Skeptic) I wrote about in previous posts. With space, I mean any kind of space, 3D, non-Euclidian, n+1 dimensions. Also, Indras Net is not situated in space. Leavitts Picture is a version of Indras Net. Both taken together are a nice working model. An Infinity of perspectives are imagined, and all but your own perspective forgotten in space. Psychedelics can loosen that quite a lot, you get access to more than "your" perspective of this life. But One Absolute Consciousness/Reality is aware of them all (since there can not be anything else than THAT, which is also a direct realization), and "that" also happens to be the stuff/material of all appearances, totally nondual. Perceptions perceiving themselves. And with no appearance/arising, this Reality is unware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. To make it more practical: If you have ever remained aware while going from Dream Sleep to waking state (or the other way round): There is a spaceless state in between, with NOTHING arising. Infinite. No Space. "vast", but not even vast. Just infinite. It is not 3D-Space. Just Nothing. No separate small you. Only Infinite Potential. Similiar to Deep Sleep (blackout), but like an infinite Nothingness/darkness suffused with light, timeless since there is no movement, just nothing. Your perspective is not situated in space then. Space gets imagined in the dream, and in "waking-life", so "before" or "after" THAT (and to be more precise, since there is no time/change in it, it all gets imagined IN IT). And of course, waking life is also a dream, just more coherent, happening in IT/You/Reality. With enough meditation/practice awareness can carry into these states, and instead of the usual Deep Sleep Blackout it can become something as described above, which of course makes the structure of reality more clear. Maya-Deep-Sleep-Blackout replaced by something more revealing (Infinite Darkness suffused with light, and not just a blackout). And I know, all of that is imagind right now, but these states still can occur. And its quite beneficial for understanding to experience them. All this logical reasoning can't get you to the big Awakening into what You really are. But a coherent explanation can help calm the thinking-mind during meditation (on or off the pillow), especially when its no longer only concentrative meditation, but meditation without concentration-support-object, and make it "compatible" for the Realization. And can help you boost your nondual/mere appearance visual field during that. With that goal, I write these lines. Not to logically get you to a conclusion/reasoning that you are IT, but to open the door to be available for that Realization in certain fully nondual states when you are fully empty of separate self arisings, and all perceptions appear as mere appearance. But I agree that the Zen-guys are way smarter than me: They would just mainly stay shut up, smile at you and make you meditate (boost nondual states), and say something like "go looking for the face before your parents were born". Which is actually the same thing I try to point to above. It is up for the reader if these ramblings of mine are of any worth. The Realization is a direct insight/understanding, Consciousness/Reality understanding itself, since there is nothing else. It is not "I always come to this conclusion, that is why I can rule out the rest, so that must be it". That is all nice and good (and necessary), some of the preliminary Awakenings/Enlightenments coming before the Big Bang, necessary to a certain degree and profiency to make the Mindstream "compatible" for the Big Bang. It is more like something undeniable, like a punch in the face. It is an unmistaken insight into what the True You/Reality are, no doubt/error possible. Self evident. Dead-certain (literally). The possibility that one can be gaslit on that Realization is something like a joke occuring in You/Reality. Or, as said in Zen: You can smile the devil in the face, and not be shaken in your certainty of What You are. Or: Who knows the spring does not drink from the cup. If "you" still can doubt it, it is not It. The more compatible your mindstream is with the Enlightened Mind (meaning no possible concept not seen through as thought arisings-in you, the last to go after space is "individuality" of a separate anything), the higher the chance for the Big Bang described above. Small "you" can't force it, but create circumstances where IT can happen (That is a large chunk of the essence of Nonmeditation-Yoga in Mahamudra). You become the whole Infinite "Thing" afterwards, with nobody watching "It". Perceptions perceiving themselves, Steven Norquist style. See my last post if you are so inclined. And yes, that haunted emptiness is the price to pay. But it just happens to look like there is a "real" price to pay, looking like that from before that Gateless Gate. Having gone through it, there never was a price to pay. To the opposite, you win It all. Everything. Everything there could ever be. What you "loose" is just the grip of the separate thinking/feeling arisings of the separate-self-Gestalt, which was nothing more than a a pattern of illusion-arisings (technically (and beware, reductionism ahead): patterns of phenomena-arisings of a separate self=structure=probability distribution of arising, a process of arisings with a certain systematic to it). Arising in you, but not self-existing: You can happily exist without it. What remains is Reality itself, and a person that isn't less functional than before, but more so (because you are not standing in the way of the optimal rollout of Consciousness/Reality). Short form: "I am not a human, I have a human". To fully get it, you need to awaken to it. Or said differently: If you would fully understand all of the above, you would be realized. On how long its stays "haunted", and how much this haunted reaction lasts: I write more about that in my last post. Maybe that is interesting for you, and I hope I didn't miss the questions too much. If I would have known that back in the day, I would have been faster and could have avoided some time-consuming mistakes. That is why I write it, not to lecture anybody or proove any fixed ideas of mine. The Ego is in large parts a cluster of beliefs, which it has to defend life-or-death style, because for the Ego its exactly that (at least with important core-beliefs). Similiar to what the bear does in the video in the signature of the post. If its not useful for you, just disregard it. In case I rambled on, please excuse the deviation. Selling Water by the River PS: If anyone feels inclined to comment on the post, please check if the bear-move in the link below (signature of the post) is being performed or not, and preferably the Blackeyes Peas and "Where is the love" (or something similiar) is being played in your emotional continuum. Then, any questions, comments, and suggestions are even more welcome than when the song is not playing. PSPS: "If God as you say are exploring though us does that mean those two bodies in that conversation is not looking at each other but that God is imagining and holding both of them within itself? And all these ideas of eyes and perception that aren’t actually in my direct experience are the ways I’ve been taking a false ownership of what’s really God’s experience of the other body as something belonging to my body?" Yes, pretty much like that. Various aspects: 1) Leavitts Non-Euclidian perspectives style, and most perspectives forgotten + 2) Indras Net that any perspective reflects all others + 3) aspect that for example even an atom or molecule has some kind of proto-perspective, reacting on similiarly leveled perspectives (=Holons in Ken Wilbers system, and similiar leveled = other molecules). And Holons/Perspectives all the way down (to infinity, quarks, ....) and all the way up (to infinity, like Galaxy-governing-monads, Universe-governing-monads, Multiverse-creating/sustaining/governing monads, and infinitely higher up n+1, and also completely "OTHER" realms, unimaginable to human mind with space/time/.... For that, see Jac O'Keeffe). And then one could start wondering of how much of that one can have explored/understood of all that manifested stuff in one single human lifetime. Next to Nothing. Infinitesimal so to say, if one is mathematically-prone. So maybe instead one fully realize ones essence and structure of Ultimate Reality/True You as Infinite/Nondual/Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness, and LIVE THAT as much as possible? With the bliss it brings? Not to talk about the "hang-over" of the (imagined of course) good Karma/tendencies that brings for ones next imagined manifestation (only if one is inclined to believe in that, which is of course not absolutely real, but part of the imagined show). But that would still be nice for the big show that "we" are all celebrating here So basically, with that model above, you don't need space as self-existing reality. Any maybe consider replacing the God word with some bundle like "Infinite Consciousness/Reality/God/True You". Just to not project/make God some self-existing external reality outside of you. Ultimate Reality is nondual, Infinite Consciousness Nothingness perceiving its own manifestations, perceptions perceiving themselves without separate self elements "clouding" the true state of things. God is not somewhere outside. God is right here. What imagines all of that? Biggest possible accident: Projecting/Confusing the Individuality-Arisings of the Separate-Self-Gestalt on God/Reality/Infinite. That is the worst possible seductive kiss from Maya imaginable. Yet, quite a show....

Yes. Fully agree. Bodily pain can of course still arise. (1) But suffering as psychological resistance to what is can fully go. (2) Especially the continued dissatisfaction/suffering cycles of the separate self can end, drowned by a current of bliss directly from the source of ones True Being. If you don't share my humble opinion, please feel invited to check that in the cases of many many enlightened beings in the history of mankind. What made them so attractive for their fellow companions? That they suffered, were confused, and sometimes a bit frustrated and not so-loving-as-possible, in the usual merry-go-round-cycle, as their fellow nonenlightened company? I guess these two observations/statements/claims (1) and (2) will always be a problem, and correspondendly be attacked and criticized by anybody trying to declare some kind of stage/state/awakening/"realization"/understanding/whatever as final or superior which doesn't deliver that freedom from suffering. And if not, why not be so kind and declare that ones version of the path to heaven does NOT provide that which every(!) being wants: Permanent bliss and happiness, and an end to the cycle of dissatisfaction and suffering. Or (smarter move probably) maybe add at least the announcement that one intents to someday later deliver these goodies also. So ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch the onslought. I know, stupid as I am writing all of that, I can't complain.... Luckily, the video with the bear is already in the signiture, and will hopefully protect the writer of these heretic lines. Well, Caveat Emptor, and bon voyage! Water by the River PS: Not that I would recommend doing something like this, but just some idea of what Nirvana/Nirvikalpa/Cessation can do to the survival-imperative. The guy didn't even flinch or move a muscle. Warning: Can be quite disturbing to read/watch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thích_Quảng_Đức Probably Britney 24/7 for a month would have gotten him anyways... PSPS: I have to admit that Moksha writes much more beautiful posts than yours truly

Somebody heard the sound of the One Hand clapping here? Did a No-Self hear it? Sorry, just kidding along. If there is doubt that what Steven Norquist describes is Enlightenment, then Sorry. Just my humble perspective. Then just lets agree to disagree. Bon voyage Selling Water by the River

Steven Norquists descriptions are spot on. But the reactions of "Hauntedness/scary/nothing there/groundless" are ... more arising of the breaking-apart (or rather transcending) of personality/Ego/separate self dynamics at the face of the Abyss/Nothingness. You get used to that after some time. Not the small you, but the big You. The small you at some point just travels through You/Reality like the wind, like any other arising. Not anymore a separate self, but a part, something of the big You/Reality, still functioning, but not separate. Which then after some getting used to, is not scary, but becomes lovely. Norquist also said that he (and anybody other realizing that) wouldn't trade that realization and the ensuing states for anything else. The True You is all of Reality, so nothing more falls away than certain separate self illusion arisings in You/Reality. So nothing really essential falls away. Just some kind of mistaken Identity/Illusion. That caused a lot(!) of suffering in the first place. You are infinitely more than these separate-self arisings. But that realization is "protected" by those scary scary arisings (Haunted, No Person there, Green Mile,...). Courtesy of and best regards from Maya herself. How much its scary... ...depends also on the speed how fast you get dropped into that Abyss of the Real No-Self. If its fast, its probably more scary than on slowly dissolving over time. Then its more like a mild scary fear, like Francis Lucilles Enlightenment: https://francislucille.com/2019/01/spiritual-awakening/ Steven Norquists progress was rather fast, see his bio. There is a video-lecture of him, where he tells his story. The gateless gate can seem scary from the opening entry. Something like: First time? Hope my taste of humor is not misunderstood.... . In case it is, please recheck for relaxation the last video with the smoking stuff I posted. Selling Water by the River Norquist: "99.999% of the spiritual books and teachers out there are completely wrong. They are wrong for one simple reason, they are not enlightened, they don’t know what’s going on. So in order to keep the illusion of personality, of the idea that there is something or someone, they invent stories, or theories, or ideas, wear special clothes, perform certain rituals and so on. They teach this stuff. But the truth is so simple, it is laughable. Now let me make a clear distinction on one point, mystical experience is not enlightenment. You may have mystical experience, see God, get abducted by aliens, receive messages from an angel, contact your spirit guides, the list could go on. But always and forever, no matter what is going on the truth is, every experience, mystical or ordinary is a happening of Universe/Consciousness." 99.999% is probably a bit much, but a scarily large part teaches something like nonduality/God-whatever/Infinity with certain aspects/filters/lense of certrain remaining separate self elements still well and alive, and identifying with that. Maya is a High Performer . Nearly 100% success rate. And she can also handle the candidates on the finishing line also quite well...

Water by the River

I personally try to make it more about bliss, and not just avoiding suffering . Gives it a more positiv spin... But I get your point. Why do you have the impression that I make spirituality about avoiding suffering? In my opinion, the most important thing is to understand what the Absolute/Reality/True You is. Since its actually all the same, I can write it with the ../../.. . That Understanding/Realization brings on top of the insight the freedom from the cycle of suffering. And if it doesn't, maybe something to reflect about? Which is of course only my humble perspective, and that of virtually all Spiritual Traditions and their enlightened showcases. And maybe that is no coincidence that really understanding and realizing Ultimate Reality/True You/Absolute brings along freedom from suffering? As a benevolent gesture, that nobody gets lost and stops halfway? Like, blissed out halfway up the mountain? But hey, its a free country. Anybody can play the game that their hearts resonate with.... Bon voyage! Water by the River

Mindset: Be a 2-year-old, like the gentleman below. And just look if its doable. And scare the adults And a Meditation Technique that allows you to carry the meditation as soon as possible (but not before) off the pillow, into daily life. For example "Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". Starting with the Yoga of One Taste, it can be done off the pillow, while working and in daily life. Realistically, only when you can use large parts of your life for meditation you can bring enough "momentum" to get visual field to become nondual and mere groundless appearance. But that can be done living a normal life with a normal job. At least my experience. Starting Yoga of One Taste (for example in the book above, Page 382, " Bringing Forth Awakened Wisdom by Cognition- and Perception-Simultaneousness"), you can take the mental continuum INCLUDING thoughts as "meditation-object", and still don't loose Mindfulness. Its an advanced technique, and needs previous concentration meditation and practice on the pillow. But if you can do it, you can use large parts of your day. Maybe not highly distracting conversations in the beginning, but most of the rest. (One Taste in the Yoga of One Taste means Nonduality. The visual field gets nondual if you do that long enough. The One Taste of all arisings thoughts/perceptions/exerpiences/world bubble). Take that book as your bibel (if you are so inclined ), practice, read it 5-10 times, because you need practice-experience to understand the more advanced parts. For me, it worked nicely. And some Psychedelics to get previews of what its all about.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Off-topic, I know.... . Sorry. But still hiring Water by the River

What the "bottom" or Absolute is, is pretty clearly defined. Absolute Reality itself, with the potential to switch off the show, and still be there. That you and everbody can potentially realize, because you are it. Then you can have for sure many many understandings on how the whole show works, how Reality/God works, how this and any other dimension works, on what God/Reality can do, ... , n+1. Which you can go on exploring when you are either a) fully resting in your True Being also in daily life, having no filters/lenses/not transcended separate self elements not already seen though, and having cut off suffering and getting bliss directly from the Source. The last "filter/separate self-element" by the way is "a" fully empty nothing (not Nothingness), "watching" the Infinity, "being aware" of it, but not fully being it at the core: A transparent feeling of Individuality (which already has no form, is empty, you are already nothing you can point to at this stage), the last remnants of it, already nondual and the visual field fully mere appearance. But that last filter-elements is precicly what prevents getting the "thing" stable in daily life. And I bet an experience of the nondual field, or even of the Infinite Godhead, is "coloured" and experienced through that last very subtle filter. b) go on exploring having had experiences of the Absolute, and still some filters/lenses/not transcended separate self elements intact (in these experiences) and of course also in daily life, where exactly these filters/lenses/not transcended separate self element prevent: 1) realizing the Absolute without a bias (that is when the Absolute gets more properties than it really has. Because any property would limit it. Nothingness Halaw-style) 2) more important: not being able to be the nondual/groundless/mere appearing reality in everday life, and of course not getting the flow of bliss from "there" which then replaces the suffering of the separate self elements. These last filters/building blocks of the separate self are very subtle, very tricks, extremely fast occuring. You need to be very fast in spotting them, and letting them flow through you and not watching through these filteres/lenses, and you need to be very familiar with them. I am convinced, that most people need hundreds of hours (at that phase already off the pillow in daily life) to get familiar and fast enough to let these lenses/filters of the last separate self building blocks flow through them (similiar to any other object) , and not look through them as lense/filter. If you look through them, it kills the state of nonduality and the world being a dreamlike mere appearance mirage, floating in groundless Nothingness (These states by the way is what you also can get with Psychedelics). If you transcend these separate-self-building blocks/filters/lenses/contractions(!), probably the endogenous DMT-System of the body starts producing some kind of Endo-Huasca cocktail, see the fascinating research of https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ , especially chapter Chapter 24 – Endohuasca Magic. Your own illegal psychedelics factory in your body . Shortform of the above: a) Fully realize your True Nature (indicator: no more suffering-cycles in daily life) and then go exploring/understanding the manifestation and manifestation mechanism of reality and Reality or b) go exploring before the bliss of a) is in place. Both paths are valid, path b) can lead to path a) and non-suffering in daily life if done correctly (maybe with a bit meditation of the efficient variety added). Of course, the path a)-variety of ~98%+ of the Spiritual Marketplace doesn't work. I can fully understand Leos dislike of selling the weak soup of just No-Ego/No-Person or an "Enlightened Person (cringe) having Nonduality and perceiving themselves to be that", but that is another topic.... I have never questioned path b). I just question giving path b) a higher value and meaning than path a). For me, that is a bit like voluntarily hitting your knee with a hammer, and calling that superior than hitting the nail, and repeating it. Sorry, love ya all.... ( : I only wonder why anybody would call path b) with suffering "higher", and all paths a) "crap" and inferior. The state-highs and wonderful experiences delivered by understanding reality/God in my opinion only ease the pain of the remaining separate self suffering cycles. Yet, these Insights/Understanding-experiences are for sure truly wonderful and marvelous, probably the most beautiful experiences one can have, savored by highly developed souls which are attracted by such sublime experiences/understandings. But still: Caveat Emptor. But hey, what do I know? NOTHING . On good days a bit of NOTHINGNESS . And "I" love it, and IT loves me. . And I am fully open on the understanding and exploring of path b). Fully. Let's see what kind of alien stuff the brave and ingenious psychonauts drag home. I really look forward and am very curious. Selling Water by the River PS: Please don't beat me with the Broomstick . But I would be really curious on a substantial feedback from Leo. Thanks!

Hi Lilia, maybe you like these two quotes. They highlight how a large majority of the spiritual marketplace is still selling Nonduality, not the realization of Ultimate Reality/Absolute. Some even only sell No Ego/No Person, which comes before Nonduality/mere groundless nondual Appearance.... And some even call the "No Ego/No Person" No-Self. . Well, caveat emptor.... ( : Nisargadatta, in Consciousness and the Absolute: The Final Talks of Sri NisargadattaMaharaj edited by Jean Dunn "The world is your direct experience, your own observation. All that is happening is happening at this level, but I am not at this level. I have dissociated myself from Sattva Guna, beingness. The Ultimate state in spirituality is that state where no needs are felt at any time, where nothing is useful for anything. That state is called Nirvana, Nirguna, that which is the Eternal and Ultimate Truth. The essence and sum total of this whole talk is called Satguru Parabrahman, that state in which there are no requirements. After the dissolution of the universe, when no further vestige of creation was apparent, what remained is my perfect state. All through the creation and dissolution of the universe, I remain ever untouched. I have not expounded this part: my state never felt the creation and dissolution of the universe. I am the principle which survives all the creations, all the dissolutions. This is my state, and yours, too, but you don't realize it because you are embracing your beingness. " That quote of Nisargadatta is given in Halaw, God is Nothingness Halaw writes: "A major shortcoming with much of the nonduality pervading the modern spiritual marketplace is that it seldom acknowledges the Nothingness which permits ‘being’ in the first place. Awareness, Being, Presence—or some variation or combination of the three—and interconnectedness, seem to represent the extent of what modern nonduality is interested in. Nothingness, however, transcends even nonduality; for while the nondual whole encompasses everything—all of ‘being’, in fact—it does not include Non-being, which precedes and acts as the very basis of ‘being’ itself. Imagine: if nonduality, the interconnected matrix of all ‘being’, including mind or consciousness, were represented by an oil painting, then Nothingness is the canvas upon which the picture resides. Nothingness pervades the entire nondual universe; it is the principle that permeates everything. In other words, Nothingness allows nonduality to occur in the first place, just as it does ‘being.’ The reason that the human body, mind, consciousness/awareness, interpenetrate is because Nothingness allows them to exist—or rather, they exist as manifest Nothingness. This must be realized. Experiencing nonduality is not yet Enlightenment. We must penetrate deeper, past all sense of ‘being’, to the canvas below the paint to realize our and all beings’ true nature as boundless Nothingness. When that happens, ordinary mind becomes the Mind of the sages. Buddha Mind, then, is the mind’s recognition of its own empty, groundlessness, not as some eternal supreme principle called Awareness, but as the very living, conscious embodiment of Nothingness in this world, at this very moment. It is not an exaggeration to say that consciousness is the act of Nothingness being aware. To know ultimate Nothingness, jettison everything. That means the world, your body, mind, ideas, beliefs, saviors, prophets, Buddhas, and even consciousness itself. Everything in the manifest realm must go." But don't throw the raft away in the river before you crossed it.... A not so smart move, quite often seen and read. Maya has got some funny tricks up her sleeve... ( : Selling Water by the River PS: If all of this sounds bleak and like nothing-at-all: That Nothingness can create a new Creation "instantly". As it does every moment. It is not a no-thing-at-all (but Nothingness), but unlimited infinite Potential also. And the source of all sentience/awareness, initially unware of itself when no appearance is arising. IT "is" already everything, nondual. "IT" already makes every appearance groundless/mere appearance, the essence of every appearance is already Nothingness. Suchness. You, with a big Y. The Buddha-Nature at the core of every sentient being. At the same, it is the Absolute Abyss that can NEVER be seen as any object/arising, even by the highest Divinity. "The eye can't see itself"-style. Or God remains an eternal mystery to itself. Not on the arising/appearance side, and their mechanism. But with the Nothingness-aspect, the core of awareness/sentience, that can never be seen. And after dabbling with writing about the neither existing nor non-existing Absolute/Totality/Reality, let's conclude with somthing much more precise after all these impossible endevours. ( : Basho's Haiku: Into the ancient pond / a frog jumps / waters sound

Thank you. I just write here for the joy of it, and also because I made a promise if the journey ever bears fruits, I will write exactly what I would have loved to read 15 years ago. And the funny thing is: It is nice to write about these things. I wouldn't do it for Ego-grasping or validation. I try to avoid the bear thing, you know. Could potentially cause some duality and being angry on the arisings in my own little bubble. Done that extensively in the past for a long time, one way or the other Hope nobody feels lectured too much Bon voyage Water by the River

>I personally don't know if people really know what they are pursuing aka Truth. Wise points, both of them. Hope you don't mind if I comment on your message that was originally adressed to Yimpa ( : People are pursuing happiness/bliss/no more suffering. In my opinion by definition. Different projects, same motivation. You always follow something that you think will make you whole and end suffering. Or rather ending the cycle of being discontent from time to time (dukha=unsatisfactoriness, at least not totally permanent satisfying). >Maybe they'll become sad that Truth, Enlightenment and Awakening will not get you laid or rich. I can assure you that the really staying in your True Nature (not the preliminary one with Nonduality already happening but separate self still quite alive, the Nonduality-Identity, the "enlightened" "Person" . That is already awesome bliss-wise, but still has phases of being still grasping and not being fully there) will bring you what you want bliss-wise. For me, in the beginning it was like: Hey, you fooled yourself your whole life with every endeavour you thought would finally bring permanent bliss. Which at the end, it didn't. Not quite. But the strange thing was: It didn't end. The cycle of dis-satisfaction was broken. Just sitting there and doing nothing, watching a park, would completely suffice. A source of bliss within you, always accessible, just do the resting in your True Nature correctly. If you know how to contact & rest in it. I am happily married (which brings a lot of bliss), and also really can't complain on the financial side. But being rich will definitely not make you happy alone, no chance. It doesn't harm for sure (at least if you are not stupid), but doesn't and can't suffice. How could some arisings happening within you make you happy, when you don't know what You are? That is not the way the game is designed. It couldn't even be designed that way. Everbody is guided back home. How can some rich folks be excluded from that, in permanent bliss from just being rich. ( : Which is exactly what you can see happening: See all the celebrity-examples. Just doesn't suffice. Many even suicide, having tried all standard methods for bliss, and having had the privilege to try them all, and find them quite lacking: quite higher tendency for drugs & suicide than average. You need the True Thing (capital T) I know, some text lines & claims in a forum. But hey, its true. And even True. And you reading that, you already have That! You are already That! Never can not be That, never having not been That. ( : Maybe you just dont know what you really are, and how to access that. Maybe there are (1) clouds of mistaken identity, and (2) regular cycles of suffering/dis-satisfactoryness in the way. One day, this life or the next, "you" will find a way for the clouds to be seen through/blown away, and you will recognize that (1) and (2) have been the exactly same phenomenon and process happening within you, one causing the other, or rather: being the same process. Like in "couldn't be designed any different, but hey, what the heck of a magnificent ride". Then you will laugh at the greatest joke ever not told.... I wish you bon voyage on the journey back home. Water by the River

Existence is only serious for the separate self illusion. Which is, as the name says, an illusion. It is not real. Just appearing, for a limited time. But for the separate self, it is very very serious, deadly serious, and very brutal. At least from time to time. And 100% deadly for it in the end. Since the separate self is NOT permanent. Only Absolute Reality is permanent, or timeless. Always here. That is why a good indicator for real/true/no illusion/not imagined/not arising You/Absolute Reality/God/Absolute is: Is it always right here, can not not be there? What Hawal calls Nothingness, so that no concept gets put onto the Absolute Reality. But "a" Nothingness with the potential for sentience, and the potential to imagine anything. Even a separate self that still thinks it is the Absolute/God. >God doesn't "enjoy" pain. You are God.. Do you enjoy it? Definitely not. Absolute Reality neither enjoys it, nor does not enjoy it. It manifests/imagines it, and is aware of its own arisings within it. All reactions towards suffering are only arisings in the Infinite Reality. Enjoying itself is already an arising WITHIN the Absolute Reality. How about replacing the word God more often with Infinite Reality or Absolute? That is a bit safer, in order to not elevate separate self identities to God-Level? They arise in God/Reality, but the separate self for sure is not God or Absolute Reality. It is an imagination of God/Reality, arising in it. Personally, I don't tend to use the word God for Absolute Reality often, because it is so easy to elevate something to God level that is not IT. But I can use it with full conviction for the Absolute, but only if I am sure no subtle separate self arisings/concepts get mixed up with it. And that is tricky, tricky business.... To put it more precisly with more humor: "Ignorance is a bad idea only from the vantage-point of ignorance.", Francis Lucille And if you still suffer (not bodily, but psychological suffering), and the suffering is not just an arising in You, moving trough You, just a small part of You, not really gripping/bothering You, then you are not in stable resting in your True Nature. And that is why "Ignorance is a bad idea only from the vantage-point of ignorance." ( : Selling Water by the River PS: And for the purpose: It is not fun eating alone... Or playing chess against yourself while not forgetting one player. ( :

You (capital Y) are the whole Infinite Reality (imagined body, imagined appearances, imagined everything n+1). With nothing outside of it, because that would be an imagined arising too. Any boundary separiting IT from an imagined other IT would be an imagined arising, an appearing phenomenon. Infinite. Try to imagine everything gone, including thinking: NOTHINGNESS. Not big, not small, just NOTHINGNESS. A vast infinite Nothingness, that is not even vast, because there is no 3D-space or anything (no objects/arisings). Similiar to Deep Sleep. YOU are still there. YOU awake every morning after having been there. You already know that you can be totally something/somebody else in dreams, and have totally forgotten all the past you imagine right now to be your "real" human self. But IT is not Nothingness like nothing there at all, but Nothingness with the POTENTIAL for sentience as soon as anything is imagined, and with Infinite Potential to imagine ANYTHING within it, n+1. Imagine a water pistol pops up in this Nothingness (see example Massaro, Conversations with a Skepctic): Then you have a) an imagined appearance (water pistol) and b) "something" perceiving it, the subject. Or just the perceptions of the water pistal in case no separates self is imagined/arises. Just the waterpistol perceiving itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. Impersonal. Then you have a "world", and subject/object. So what are you then? a) The Infinite Field with anything that can possibly be imagined? Yes. Nondual/Totality/Oneness. The manifest/imagined side of Infinite Consciousness. Always changing, never stable, since no appearance/form lasts. NONE. But there is a constant: b) But even more so, you are that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself, Infinite Consciousness initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something arises. The unmanifest side of Infinite Consciousness. The unchanging, Unborn and constant core of the True You/Reality itself. So empty that IT is the Abyss, Impersonal. NOTHINGNESS. But also Infinite Potential, since IT can imagine anything. and "Both"a) and b) is indivisible, nondual. Totally the same essence, ONE Reality. The Nothingness or the True You is already the essence/"substance" of every imagined arisings/phenomenon, including the water pistol, or all separate self arisings (they are all appearances within you). a nice book about that is Szyper, "Infinite Consciousness" And that is why with the Big Awakening/Big Enlightenment, you realize yourself to already be (and ever have been, ever will be) both totally Nothingness (no separate self arisings not transcended or spotted fast enough) and everything manifested/appearing. Its all One Infinite Reality, imagined in Infinite Consciousness/Mind, hovering empty appearances, hovering in You/Reality, perceptions perceiving themselves. What falls away (or are understood) are just the ignorant separate self arisings, that make you feel and think you are not the Infinite Totality, but this small body "moving" in it. You become Nothing(-ness), but also Everything. No longer a separate body-mind in a larger "universe", but all of that happening in You. To fully get it, you need many small awakenings/Kenshos/Enligthenments (becoming gradually the empty infinite mere imagined appearances/nondual field), and a big awakening (Great Enlightenment, Basis Enlightenment, Great Satori) after you have become the whole infinite empty field, when you wonder who/what PERCEIVES that field. The One Hand clapping. That is when the last subtle layers of the separate self are suddenly seen through. Sudden Awakening. Its gradual until then, and sudden and unmistakenly with the last shift. Up to that shift, there are stages and higher awakenings. But the bug stops here. That is also why you never know with the smaller Awakenings (1) what the end of the ladder is.... and (2) you still suffer. And of course you can go exploring afterwards, but you already understand what You are and what Reality is when doing that. And how you fooled yourself before, with many different layers (imagined separate self, imagined past, imagined future, imagined anything n+1). The Real You is quite smart to fool itself in such a way.... ( : Tricky thing with the last shift is: This last shift needs a fully empty or transended separate self, including very subtle layers of feeling/thinking... And that needs.... a lot of time in these nondual and empty states to get rid of any untranscended separate self arising. And these last separate self elements can be very tricky & subtle, needing familiarity with them to spot them, and a very fast speed of spotting and transcending/cutting them off in real time. And: You can't force it here with the usual meditation techniques (that came before this stage) of directing attention. Because who/what is doing the meditation? The separate self.... It has to be automized, so that the meditation does itself. No artificial activity of a separate self. Non-Meditation Yoga in the Mahamudra-System. Or alternatively, but not so efficient: "Bang your head against the wall" for several years with a Koan. That also works, but more brute-force-style and doesn't feel so nice... Or you win the genetic lottery, jump all of that, find yourself to be the Great Unborn... and have no clue how to get there since you jumped the journey. Ramana-style. The author of these lines wasn't lucky enough to win this lottery. But hey, the point of the ride is ride. Bon voyage! ( : "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche Selling Water by the River

Fully Agree. And I believe there is a hard-wired element in every human to go for the radiation of love,bliss and happiness when choosing a path/teaching/guide. The Archetype of the Enlightened Sage, hardwired as Archetype in Humanity since the dawn of time. Which is actually a nice thing that Mara didn't kill that hard-wiring. She only tries . Check the Wikipedia overview of Mystics for the favourite ways of executing Mystics: Nailing to the Cross, burning at the stake, drowning, .... Weren't we (capital W) having fun at certain past incarnations. First time? Luckily, humanity as evolved a bit. Main risks nowadays are ranging from being fired/kicked out from a spectrum of social activities, ranging from your job to online forums. Water by the River

True Looks sometimes like this here: I believe these two here are sweeter: Curiosity, compassion, marveling at the wonder of all of this, and always keeping some humor considering that the Clap of the One Hand is also the biggest Joke ever (not) told. Being too serious always feels like the suffering of a separate self, not being amused by its own visual field. Or, the short visual form of that statement, in 14 seconds: Water by the River

Hi Lilia, yes, there can be pain, but no psychological suffering stacked on top, and the pain itself much more removed with less focus, flowing through oneself like a distant wave. What I wanted to say in my post (suffering and mainting Realization sobre/without psychedelics) was that without full stable Realization of ones True Nature and being able to keep that stable in everyday life (Postsamadhi), the cycle of suffering of the separate self continues. Without Realization of ones True Nature, one can have wonderful trips of Awakening with psychedelics, or just normal blissful experiences. But it never lasts. The merry-go-round of being content/satisfied and then no longer content/satisfied (suffering in the Buddhist sense of Dukha means not literally suffering, but something mroe like unsatisfactoryness (everything being unsatisfactory in the end, which then also causes suffering) continues. It is (in my observation) a necessary building block of any Lila, because without it the separate self arising would at some point no longer find "projects", and just "fizzles" out at some point. And: When I became able to rest in my True Nature (cutting off and/or just watching the separate-self arisings (thoughts/feelings) "Trekchö-style" emerging also at high frequencies, the visual field became limitless/infinite/nondual/mere appearance/imagined style/empty/groundless), and most of the separate self arisings were seen flowing through the Reality that the Real I is, I got a flow of bliss/love flowing from and through that Source/Reality that was independend from outer circumstances. In the beginning I thought it was too good to be true, like am I fooling myself here. But it never stopped, and increased further, including the so called three special states of bliss, emptiness (groundlessness) and luminosity (shimmering mere appearance), which then also progressed further. At that time, the meditation was off-the-pillow (Postsamadhi-Meditation) since quite some time, so I got that in everyday life and not only while sitting. And from that basis of a fully nondual infinite field of empty groundless mere appearances with no center/separate anything, one can start wondering WHAT kind of empty nonlocal Awareness really watches that infinite empty field of mere appearance, and in What that really appears. And then the Big Bang can suddenly happen. But that comes normally a considerable time after the stabilization of the Nondual Field described above. Tashi Namgyal, quoted in Pointing out the Great Way, Brown: "In short, crossing over [to Enlightenment] happens at the time when every single sensory experience—appearance [visual field] and thought [any separates self or thought arising in general]—are viewed as clarity/emptiness [mere empty groundless imagined appearance] and movement/emptiness [thought/separate self arisings moving in You/Reality] with absolute certainty [meaning it is no a decission of any kind, but a self-evident observation and an understanding of Absolute certainty, an Understanding of Ultimate Reality (infinite consciousness) understanding Itself]." Or in other words: When you get it that anything there can ever be is just a imagined show happening in the True You, and the True You is so totally empty/Nothingness that it is when no appearance appears unware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something is imagined. Or: Totally empty, Nothingness, so that IT can manifest anything and is not limited in any way, which it would be if IT/You were anything specific at all. This is a point where many teachings become imprecise, or just end there (at a not so empty Nonduality), because the author didn't progress over that Nonduality-Stage with a still lingering pretty empty awareness/witness. Whenever you here "I am this Nonduality", a questionmark is indicated. For that, see also this video (Prior to Nonduality): Concerning what you describe about pain: Yes. If there is Physical pain, it is still there, but no psychological restisting/suffering arises because of it (which is like 80% of the perceived suffering). On top, as you describe, the physical pain flows through the Reality that you are, like the wind. Much more remote, like there is pain moving in me, but I am not that pain. It doesn't "grip" anymore. Bon voyage Water by the River

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, The Supreme Source: "I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe. [... ] Pure and total consciousness has created everything and has not created anything. It has created everything because it has created its own nature, pure and total. It has not created anything because within it there exists no need to create. When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening. [...I" "As I transcend all affirmations and negations, I am beyond all phenomena. As no object exists that is not myself, I am beyond meditating on a view. As there is nothing to keep apart from myself, I am beyond a commitment to observe. As there is nothing to seek other than myself, I am beyond obtaining the capacity for spiritual action. As no place exists outside myself, I am beyond a level of realization to surpass. As I have never encountered obstacles, I am beyond [everything] as self-arising wisdom. As I am the ultimate unborn nature, I am beyond [everything] as the [true] subtle ultimate nature" "I am called "the perfect condition" becauseeverything is contained in me. I am called "the source" because the teacher, teaching, and disciples arise from my three natures" "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my essence. The teachers of the three dimensions are my essence. The Buddhas of the three times are my essence. The Bodhisattvas are my essence. The four types of yogins are my essence. The three worlds, of desire, of form, and without form, too, are my manifestation. The five great elements are my essence. The six classes of beings are my essence. Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me. The unborn, the wonder of birth, and the manifestation of energy are the three aspects of the three teachers: this is their condition." "As the three times, past, present, and future, abide exclusively in me, all the Buddhas are in the same condition: this too is my essence. As I transcend the dualism of subject and object, like space I am allpervading, and I constitute the fundamental substance of all phenomena: my essence is pure and total consciousness. I, that am the source, abide in the single state, and in this same authentic condition the practitioners of the "four yogas" "Realize my nature, the supreme source that is pure and total consciousness. Teach that all the phenomena of existence are only myself! If you transmit my teaching, all your disciples will realize my nature and will become this very nature. "If my nature were to be compassionately displayed to the beings of the three worlds who have originated from me,.... Thus I, the supreme source, disclose my nature, displaying it to myself." "Nothing other than this exists; none of the Buddhas have ever received a higher teaching than this from me, the source. Aside from this condition of equality beyond concepts, I myself, the supreme source whence everything arises, have absolutely nothing whatever to display to myself." "Listen! As all of you are created by me, you beings of the three worlds are my children, equal to me, the supreme source. You are me, inseparable from me, so I manifest to you and through the five teachers of my natures I teach the single state of the five essences [of the elements]. I am the single state, I, the supreme source: you too are, you must become certain of this!" "Listen, Sattvavajra! I will show you your own nature. You are me, the source. I am and have always been pure and total consciousness. What is pure and total consciousness?" "Among all things existing in the animate and inanimate universe, there is not one single thing that has not been created by me, nor is there a cause that does not derive from me. Thus I am the essence of all, and nothing surpasses me. I am superior to the three dimensions, to the Buddhas of the three times, to the Vidyadharas, to the Bodhisattvas, to the beings of the three worlds, to the whole animate and inanimate universe, because I am the maker of all. Before there was any other teaching I, that am the source, pure and total consciousness, disclosed the teaching of pure and total consciousness." But I don't know if that comment still holds: You are asking "God-realization the way Leo teaches it". Since I have a hard time following what the latest definition of the God-Realization-Awakening of Leo is, I am not the authority on what fits his current definition of God Realization. There seems to be sometimes an update on the Awakening to the the Timeless Unborn (Capital Letters). -stolen from @GLORY- : "No they can be awake Or maybe even Awake But they are not AWAKE™" I personally can't agree to claims to why there is no Final Awakening or Enlightenment in which everything (including all appearances and thought/understanding-arisings) appears/is imagined in You, the small separate you is fully seen through, including seeing ANY feeling of any kind of Subjectivity/Individuality watching any kind of Infinity arising in you as more illusion. Just One Infinite (potentially sentient) Reality/You in which everything (n+1) appears/is being imagined/Mirage/Show, and Tat Tvam Asi. And of course that includes imagining/manfesting all (just appearing/imagined) stories of Buddhism, (any spiritual system), your history, your past, your parents, n+1 (which means WHATEVER/Anything possible, or n+1). EVERYTHING is imagined as a big Illusion Show in the Real You (Capital Letters in case when talking about Absolute Reality). Or in other words: The ultimate Mindf*** (pardon my French). Or the ultimate joke. How could it be any different? Of course you can always have more Understandings/Insight on the appearing/relative arisings "stuff/realities/dimensions/Lilas". And since "It" is infinite, you can go on understanding these forever and ever and ever ... infinitely. As long as you have fun doing that, and don't suffer: Perfect. But I wonder how one does the "not suffering" part when one is sobre and then not stably resting in the above described Realization. [Warning: Karma still holds. "Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour." Padmasambhava. So as long as a separate self thinks it can do what it wants since all is just imagined, the only outcome with mathematical precision can only be: suffering. With best regards from Maya, trying to guide you back home]. I have not seen one description from Leo of God Realization that is not covered by Full(!) Enlightenment into Reality/Your True Nature, fully understanding of what Reality is or what You are (please don't beat me ). That includes understanding that all and any manifestation arising in You/Reality is an empty, groundless, imagined(!) arising in you. Of course including the whole you, its history, n+1, EVERYTHING. And like I wrote above, if that is not the most tricky, twisted Illusion/Mindf***, I don't know what is. But the Magnificence and splendor of it ..... Maybe Leo can comment on that? What is the special thing about your definition of God Realization? I am honestly just respectfully asking, and it would be nice if the answer would a) be polite (not that my imagined self-worth suffers) and b) something with content, and not Glorys statement above in different wording + broomstick. Thanks a lot, and Namaste . And for getting "there", among other books: "Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". And Psychedelics as a preview and along the path of course... respectfully yours Selling Water by the River