Water by the River

> I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream. I agree that there are many paths up the mountain. And there are cases where neither meditations nor psychedelics was necessary. Ramana, Anandamayi Ma, and others. But at least I personally know of many more contemporary and historic examples where either meditation with or without psychedelics brought realization, than examples where these two techniques were not used. >I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization. We are also aligned that these extreme states are not necessary for Enlightenment. And psychedelics for sure are not necessary for realization. And probably they also have to potential to blow up ones narcissism to God-sized dimension, preventing the final drop into Nothingness or becoming fully Nothing, and Everything, or realizing the Absolute. But used in an intelligent, smart and humble way with intelligence and insight, they can be nice tools in addition to for example meditation and other paths/methods. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When having to choose on betting for meditation or psychedelics, I would always choose meditation because if its either or, I have yet to see a stable Full Realization coming from psychedelics only. But maybe its out there, I don't know. I know many cases (contemporary and historic) where meditation did the job. Luckily, for most people, it is not either or. And if it is not either/or, I would recommend both, with a focus on meditation. > I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics. Yes I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription. Everyones path up the mountain is unique. Yet, traveling (or at least starting on) a path that many already have traveled and reached the top of the mountain is maybe a good starting point. And then, one is always free to improvise and follow ones intuiton/heart. And now I am going to read some of your archive of previous posts, looking for what you shared about your personal path, because I find your posts interesting, and I like them. Besides the path of suffering you mentioned, what specifically did you do/practice? How did it all develop? Water by the River

Because it is not cool? Common decency? Not to talk about compassion, ethics, (Karma if one is inclined to think in these dimensions), or not boosting ones ego to the stratosphere?

Because what continues after the moment of death is again relative appearance, a "newly" imagined visual field, arisings in the opening of Absolute Reality that you are. The karmic tendencies of your current mind-stream, which aggregate and constitute your Soul that passes from life to life, have not been enlightened before you committ suicide. You have not stabilized your True Nondual Nature yet. Else, you normally wouldn't commit suicide, because it is your creation, and you would life the bliss/love flowing from your own True Core. All of that (Soul, this world, the Bardo afterwards, any other manifestation) is relative manifestation happening in the Absolute Reality/Nothingness that You really are. So it doesn't really exist, but appears to do so. And how much that can hurt (appearing to do so), one knows probably quite well enough from ones current life to take it serious, even if its essence is only Nothingness/Absolute Reality. But if your tendencies/Karma/Souls have not developed in this life to see through the illusion, that will come back again in the next life. Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour. – Padmasambhava And if you kill yourself while your soul still gravitates in the illusion of separation/suffering right now, why should it be different in the existence that reappears after death? The True You will still be there, but the relative mindstream of the reconstituting separate-self will not get any wiser doing stupid things (suicide). So you if you are not going to finish second class because you drop out of school, you are not going to be put into third grade. And how much fun second grade was in that case if you drop out of school you know quite well... And of course dying and approaching the Absolute/Clear Light of Death feels wonderful, like Infinite Love. You can have that experience also while alive with Nirvikalpa. Or drop some Psychedelics/5-MeO. See also all the Near Death Experiences. But when you come out of these states again, the whole enchilada of states manifests again backwards. A similiar process happens in the Dying process after having experiences to so called "Clear Light of Absolute Reality". Nothingness but with a certain afterglow/"knowledge/acess" still available after the experience and while having it, although there is no more duality. As for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol , The Tibetan Book of the Dead After having falling out from the Absolute/Clear Light of Absolute Reality/Nothingness, the not so funny stages of the reincarnation-process start, and since you are not familiar with these states/bardos, "relative you" gets frightened/not so infinite loving again... and then after suicide going back to second grade again, to finish the class, so to say. Don't worry, nobody gets lost. All make to the finish line at some point. Since you can't loose your true nature. And I would recommend not walking out of school (suicide), not making second grade, and repeating that 20 times. But of course, its a free country, and the point of the ride is the ride. If you want to repeat it 20 times, nothing will stop you. But why knowingly "shoot yourself in the foot", resisting your own manifestation/show, think yourself of clever and shoot yourself, and thinking that ends school and you go directly to Infinite Love permanently? And I honestly think Leo should add to "Death is Infinite Love"-statements something like: Only in the first stages of the dying process if you have not stabilized this love on a permanent basis before death/suicide, including experiencing Absolute Reality/True You on a constant basis. What follows afterwards experiencing the Absolute/Clear Light of Death in the dying process can be a lot less than Infinite Love. Like in, for example right here and now, depending on the mindstream. Any fool can read anything to the statement of "Death is Infinite Love", and aim unknowingly directly for repating 2nd class 20 times+, thinking he has graduated PhD in "Infinite Love ever after". Karma/Cause-Effect also holds for Leo & your forum & teaching, and having a track-record of (unnecessary) suicides on this board, is... -fill in the blanks of your liking-. In my opinion less than smart-as-can-be. Anyways, as always, bon voyage to all of you! Respectfully Yours Selling Water by the River

Nice post. Let me add some musings from my perspective. >But there is a catch. You see through all the egos games. If you speak from an Enlightened perspective you will not be understood. Every ego is afraid of absolute truth. Yes. The separation/separate self/Ego HAS to be scared by/avoid the truth, by definition. Else it would end soon.... Not so good for a nice, long, interesting game/show/Lila.... But at the same time, every separate being is deeply drawn back and attracted by its True Nature, which fragrence/bliss it never fully forgot, and only partly manages to avoid, closing down to this bliss and the following various projects to get it back via a variety of experiences . And these two contradicting drives (Pull of Illusion and Pull of Truth) drive the separate self sometimes quite nuts... >The final stage is to do activities just for the pure joy. You start to walk the path of appreciation. Yes. One couldn't do different. And it couldn't work different than that. Nothing left to force oneself to do something one doesn't want. No more internal conflicts, conflicting motivations. Luckily, if you have made it this far, your motivations are normally aligned with the Universe, because you have understood and trained compassion for a long time to stabilize resting in your True Nature/Awakening, see below. >You can also start getting attached to trying to alleviate suffering but that will take years of practice because egos will blame you for their feelings and accuse you of being the source of their suffering. They will demonize you and call you a victim blamer, arrogant, a narcissist, and a gaslighter. You will need to cultivate a deep compassionate patience should you choose to engage in helping others who suffer. Wise words. That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/transcendence/Awakening/Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that? In relative reality (our life), one can not maintain stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment), when you are constantly annoyed by the Truth-avoidance-mechanisms of ones fellow separate-selves, and react with negative emotions towards that. These negative emotions/reactions do shut down ones nondual experience of the visual field being groundless mere appearances hoving in Infinite Nothingness. And more easily to understand: They shut down ones love, which is the same as the acceptence of the here and now, which is the only thing happening/being imagined right now, and actually the True You in a nondual way. So these emotions are just incompatible with keeping the nondual realization ongoing, an auto-immune-reaction on parts of your own True Being, cutting nonduality in two creating duality. And that doesn't... feel good . At least my experience. And that of many others. By the way, if something happening requires immideate "not-accepting"-action, like running away from an attacking bear, that is of course also done. Staying open and fearless, and not constricting the love/acceptence of this present moment doesn't exclude acting wisely. It is not so wise and smart to serve as food for the attacking bear. There are better things to do with your separate-self-vehicle than that.... Only Empty Mirrors are stupid enough to get their frames teared down by confused attacking bears, see my Signature of the post below, but that is another story as explained in the Job Profile for Empty Mirrors. My theory (experience) is that these "less-than-loving", non-so-compassionate, non accepting/closing down emotions cut off the Endohuasca-system: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ , solidifying the mere-appearance infinite nondual field of lucid world-arisings hovering in infinite Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence, and making it solid&external or appearing "out there", duality: the "normal" state of the separate self, often less than loving, imprisoned in duality most or all of the time. So it is impossible to live in a stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment) without deep compassion for other not yet realized beings. You can not blame an acorn for not being an oak tree yet. That would be rather stupid. All acorns got and are Buddha-Nature (or can realize their potential by becoming an oak tree). It is for example not the way society raises children, which is a similiar topic. We don't blame children for not being adults yet, but acknowledge their potential of being adults themselves, and raise them up to that potential. Every time I write Selling Water by the River, it is to acknowledge by the way that what is being doing is Illusion. But a nice one! What else is there to do? And since there is only appearance/illusion, there is no difference between reality and appearing illusion in some way. And Karma/cause effect fully works/holds, works like a clockwork, driven by infinite intelligence. Even if its only imagined... that "I" am "selling" something that is freely available to all (the Water of the River). Actually, there is only the Water of the River. That the water of the River is the Buddha Nature of every being, the Nothingness that is the essence of all of Reality. So nothing that could be superior to anything else at the end of the day... Actually, there are no others to safe. And yet, that is what tends to appear to happen normally. And should happen on a relative level, as it is in the nature of things... And that is paradoxical from before the Gateless Gate, but not afterwards... It is only the True You manifesting in endless perspectives.... sometimes appearing (only appearing) confused in some mindstreams, and in some not. The "Core" never gets confused, since it is Nothing(-ness). It contains the confused or unconfused mind-stream arisings. And Maya is the great seductress (hey, "somebody" has to orchestrate the illusion-show. Else it wouldn't be there! ) but there are even more elements build into our reality to guide souls back to their true nature. One of the mightiest and most powerful ones are probably: What is more attractive? An Ego/separate self preaching arrogantly with self-importance and narcissism from upon high, or a being radiating love, compassion and wisdom/bliss? and guess what feels better for the being doing that why does every being yearn for bliss/peace, intuiting that that is what one really is? In a practical experience, compassion/love increases ones realtive happiness in every way. A happy, integrated "relative" life, delivering on the stages of Maslow what the separate self need to thrive and not scream for attention most of the time, resulting in a separate self that is much more easy to transcend than a drama-show-separate-self, that constantly requires attention and maintenance, and suffers lack on the lower levels of Maslows pyramid (financials&job, friends/partner, health, security needs, belonging-needs, self-esteem, self-actualization...) And also speedens up self-realization significantly, or even enabling it, and stabilizes it. That even shows in the fact that countless studies asking humans about their deepest/strongest sources of relative happiness in life is human connection (which is based in large parts on love/compassion, or resonating deeply with "another" soul, seeing and being seen, which then yields natural compassion out of that resonance. At least if its done in a healthy way). Selling Water by the River PS: Ken Wilber: Wake up, Grow Up, Show Up

I agree that large parts of Buddhism/"Hinduism" and any other Spiritual Tradition had major impacts from psychedelics, and genetically/"karma-developed" realizers. Yet, most of them did some kind of meditation, often for very long times. And I don't believe (personal opinion, based on what I have seen) that only tripping will get you really to a deep identity with your True Identity, Absolute Reality itself. Especially its essence, which Hawal for example calls Nothingness (because the essence of the Always Here Reality is totally empty, Nothing(ness) at all. Only this way (totally empty), It/True You can be totally infinite and manifest anything. For sure, ignoring or not using, or advising against psychedelics, or the "hurricane" to blow away 95%+ of the separate self arisings/clouds covering the sun(True Nature, see some of my last posts) is in my opinion not the most efficient and integral method. Why not use these tools as a preview to the fulltime thing of stabilized Awakening, enabling to perceive the visual field as lucid hologram-like mere appearances hovering in infinite timeless Nothingness and disabling/transcending the separate self arisings from a level of separate self bodymind mindstrem to being a mostly empty witness but still some kinds of very very subtle layers of Individuality/separateness still going on, like an empy-nothing-consciousness watching (or even being) some kind of mere appearance-infinity. But still with some very very subtle levels of the separate self arisings still active. and these very fine last layers/filters/clouds of the remaining separate self arisings/individuality/being not the Totality at the deepest Identity Level fully, prevent the full realization, which would make IT stable after coming out of the trip. To become fully Everything/Totality on a stable basis, one has to be totally Nothing(-ness). At least for me, this seems totally logical in theory, and is also demonstrated in practice time and time again of what kills the solidity of the visual field (and makes the visual field mere empty groundless appearance hovering in Nothingness) and its "externalness/not nonduality", making "It" one seamless infinite nondual Totality/whole: Being the Nothingness fully,and stabilizing in that. Short form: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche So, why did the actively psychedelic using traditions either disappear (Vajrayana in medieval India), or go underground in secrecy? My theory is: When you got a monastery with meditation technique (that is maybe not the most efficient one), bringing less than a few percent of the people to Enlightenment, and supplying that with the goooood psychedelic stuff ... (which was not so gooood in the past, nearly nobody had 5-MeO for example, mainly Mushrooms and LSD/Ergot/... and some DMT. Well, you can imagine the show of the ladies and gentlemen inside which are by definition confusing in the beginning phases of their Psychonaut/tripping-journey parts of their separte self arisings/Ego with the Infinite Field of Totality hovering as mere appearance in groundless eternal Nothingness when they take the psychedelics. that probably has led to an Ego-show of the highest degree of only partly transcended Egos/separate selfs.... Imagine who would not like to join the club/monastery if rumours of tripping occur? the support from the community to such an institution would have been shut down after quite fast after a few scandals of "not-so-enlightened-living" But most importantly (and at least my experience): To stabilize Awakening in daily life, which brings the bliss and freedom from psychological suffering) that everybody (wants independend of outer circumstances), one needs a deep identity shift towards ones True Nature, which is Nothingness as "Subject"/or better Deep-Identity with the nondual Totality and Nothingness (Halaw) as its essence, which means no remaining separate self arising not spotted and "not believed"/"not hypnotized by"/not transcended/not cut-off fast enough. and that takes time, hundreds if not thousands of hours resting in empty Suchness (which can then already be done in daily life, but the beginning phase without some (or a lot) sitting/meditation is probably difficult. and one doesn't get enough time in the psychedelic state to do that, and even more important if you meditate, you get direct feedback on if you transcend your character/separate self arisings/Ego or not: If you don't, then the visual field doesn't get shimmering mere apperance, but stays rock-solid and "out-there/external/dual. If you just drop psychedelic, it is probably impossible to not project certain remaining aspects of the separate self on the Totality, leaving it not totally empty of separate self/subject, but a mix of the Truth and remaining separate-self-illusion-arisings. and Everything Else (the infinite Totality of the visual field/"external" world hovering as mere groundless imagined appearance in the always here Nothingness. again, the very nice summary of Kalu Rinpoche: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. All of that means that I believe that one has to and should do both, psychdelics AND meditation, preferably an efficient meditation-system (broken record of mine: I recommend for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown, and in general Mahamudra/Dzochen), I have written in my past posts about this topic): get Awakenings and previews of the real state of things via psychedelics, and hopefully don't get the separate self/ego blown up by that to epic proportions by projecting the properties of the epic/awe-inspring Absolute Reality on the separate self individuality arisings (that is Maya giving you a hugely seductive kiss) and get deeply established in ones True Identity (Nothingness), so that one never forgets ones True Nature in daily life never loosing the Deep Identity of being the Totality, the visual field staying nondual and as lucid empty mere appearances. I have written about the Endohuasca-System, which is (I believe, and also my experience) triggered by stabilizing these empty states of transcending the separate self: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ never loosing the bliss of ones own True Identity One of the largest experiments (both in scope of people doing it, and psychonauts having gone as fare as ever before, and further) is being conducted right here in this community/forum, and in general with the ongoing psychedelic revival. We are sitting in the prime seats to see if those belittling meditation (and emphasizing only psychedelics or also only meditation, one or the other) or those that recommend both methods to be integrated and used together) end up living a beautiful, satisfying and blissful life, stabilizing their True Deep Identity in daily life, and explore more of the depths of the Kosmos. My personal belief is that the Totality gives one a lot of insight into the structure of the manifested/relative side of Absolute Reality by doing mainly (or only) psychedelics, but so far, as I see it, Absolute Reality doesn't give the full bliss and stable Awakening in daily life to those only or mostly or only doing psychedelics. Opposite examples welcome, I have not seen one so far that fully stabilized ones True Nature as Deep Identity (and the ensuing Liberation), neither historical nor contemporary. Even if it exists/existed/or will happen, think about what that says about the success rates of the paths psychedelic only and meditation. I also assume, since Absolute Reality is all there is, infinitely intelligent, all powerful, certain areas of exploration of the Multiverse are blocked for part-time-separate-selves only doing tripping, but falling from grace/loosing Awakening after the trip. As this worlds contains many many traps that stabilized the illusion of Maya/Duality/Separate Self, from what I see this minefield doesn't end when doing psychedelics, but actually starts there at the highest level: Blowing up ones Ego to epic proportions via projecting the separate self arisings/identity onto the properties of the Infinity Absolute Reality is a hugely seductive trap, but blocks the stabilizing of ones True Identiy (fully empty Nothingness -in Halaws definition- Core Identity), and being nondually Everything in daily life. So, ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch one of the most interesting shows of the Multiverse developing right here in this forum, and in the psychedelic revival at large... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River >PS: Can you imagine driving a car then your mind just randomly goes into a Salvia trip? Sometimes I have the feeling that exactly something like that happens with fellow drivers .Luckily, not too often... ( :

Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, Crowley. I found it fascinating. and: https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz "The most famous and oft-cited passage by both ancient and modern commentators on the Supreme Array occurs when Sudhana meets the Bodhisattva Maitreya. Maitreya stands before a jeweled palace. When Sudhana asks about how he should carry out the course of a bodhisattva, Maitreya tells him he should enter the palace. Sudhana then asks for permission to enter; the Bodhisattva snaps his fingers and the doors to the palace open. Once inside, Sudhana sees that the palace’s interior is adorned with precious substances, many hundreds of thousands of leagues wide and as vast as the realm of space. Moreover, inside the palace are hundreds of thousands of other palaces arrayed in the same manner spread out in all directions. Miraculously, each dwelling remains distinct while simultaneously reflecting every other one and all of its objects. Experiencing this awesome vision, Sudhana is overcome with bliss and bows down in all directions. At the moment of prostration, through the power of Maitreya, Sudhana perceives himself simultaneously in each and every palace witnessing a different scene from Maitreya’s bodhisattva course of conduct. In a single instant, Sudhana sees countless eons, realms, beings, bodhisattvas and buddhas, and hears endless teachings. In the centre of all his, Sudhana sees one palace larger than the others. Inside it, he witnesses Maitreya in his final life performing the acts of a buddha, such as going forth to homeless life, sitting under the enlightenment tree, attaining omniscience and preaching the Dharma. While Sudhana is watching the endless and simultaneous practices of Maitreya in all the palaces, suddenly the Bodhisattva enters the dwelling, snaps his fingers once more and says, Arise, Son of Good Family! This is the nature of conditioned factors. Son of Good Family, characterized by their non-fixity, all conditioned factors are controlled through the knowledge of bodhisattvas. In this way, lacking the perfection of an essence, they are like illusions, dreams and reflections." and " In an important sense, Buddhism has always been “psychedelic.” Recall the meaning of psychedelic as “manifesting the mind.” The very first verse of the Dhammapada, one of the most ancient Buddhist texts, reads: The mind is the basis for everything. Everything is created by my mind, and is ruled by my mind. When I speak or act with impure thoughts, suffering follows me As the wheel of the cart follows the hoof of the ox. " Water by the River

I think we are already aligned here: The separate self is an arising appearance, appearing/moving temporarily in You/Reality/Infinite Totality, like any other appearance. Every night in deep sleep its gone. The bullet will also work That is why I mostly write "Separate Self Arisings". "Arisings", to emphasize it is not a really existing "thing", more like a process clouding ones recongition of ones True Identity, but the clouding itself creates an illusion, and is an illusion, not a thing. Technically defined by some as ignorance, or illusion, Maya... All arisings in ones mindstream that make one feel/think that one is not the Totality, but something separate (ranging from Ego/Body-Mind to a Transparent Witness with some last remnants of feeling separate/Individuality or feeling like watching/experiencing the totality). At the end, its all of the same/one essence, like the beautiful example of gold or origami/paper. Same essence, different forms/expressions. I belong not to those demonizing the whole character/body-mind. The more functional it is (health, relationships, financials, the whole Maslow-Pyramid), the easier it is to transcend the separate-self-arisings-part of it. Wilber for example says a strong&healthy ego is easiert to transcend than an ego that hurts in many areas. That is also my experience. The character can also operate without separate-self-arisings. The separate-self-arisings are only an optional part of the character/body-mind. Actually, at least in my experience, once the separate-self-arisings are no longer disturbing ones intuition, one acts much more efficiently/smoothly/successful, much closer aligned to Ones True Core. Once "one" gets out of the way, things run much smoother. Actually, "the" separate self is more a process/structure/Gestalt, "separate-selfing", a verb more than a noun/thing.... Like a process, that can happen, but that can also stop. Then, the True You/Reality, by definition has still to be there, and is of course, as always. The clouds between the sun, that can also evaporate or no longer happen.... and then, welcome home to a home you never left in the first place. It only appeared so. Coming back from a trip that never really happened, only appeared to do so. Thanks for your message, I want to learn to optimize communicating all of that, and I should emphasize this point sometimes more. Water by the River PS: "The dream is absolute truth, the character is not separate from the dream. Therefore the character is also absolute truth." Many (including me) would probalby prefer writing that the essence of the dream or character is Absolute Truth, but not Absolute Truth in itself (which is the Infinite Totality, the One without a second, of which nothing can be finally said) but this depends on the context it is used, and is a question of preference. One can only use pointers to the Absolute Reality of which nothing positive can be said at the end since that would limit it, make it no longer infinite. IT can only be pointed to (the pointers appearing in IT/Absolute Reality), and realized as Ones True Identity. That is why the pointer Nothingness of Halaw (God is Nothingness) is actually in my opinion a beautiful tool. The essence of every appearance is already Nothingness. The essence of every thought, of every "separate self arising" is already Nothingness. The "behind ones head" is it already floating in Nothingness. The visual field is floating in Nothingness already. Once the referent (Enlightenment, realizing ones True Identity as Absolute Reality/Absolute) is in place, one can use signifiers (pointers) to point to it. Before that, all pointers can only show in the direction of that Realization of Ones True Essence. When the referent is in place, something like Bashô "The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop!" can work very precise when said from one person knowing the referent and the corresponding/accompanying states, to another. Much more precise than some pointers like Absolute/Nothingness/Infinite Reality,.... At the "edges of Duality" approaching "that" which can never be made to an object of any kind is challenging business I assume that you mean that, and that its only a preference of writing/pointing.

Warning: Loooong rambling ahead! The deception is what I call (at least for me) Separate-Self-arisings (I-thoughts, I-feeling), that arise with a very high frequency in Oneself (True Self/Reality). That leads to the world appearances manifesting as "external" and "solid/not hologram-like mere appearances". Et voila, the magic show! When one spots them fast enough (separate self arisings) and is familiar with them, and doesn't get captured by them (in my opinion the goal of meditation), the visual field at some point becomes nondual, mere appearance, lucid/hologram-like, hovering in Infinite Nothingness. Then, there is no more deception, since it doesn't "grip". Nothing the "separate self can throw at you" is believed anymore. It just runs/appears in True You/Reality, but is no longer to believed to be more real than mere arising in True You/Reality. Perceptions perceiving themselves in You/Reality, and some practical mind-stream-stuff of the human you have (not are, but have) running in True You/Reality. As long as any of it is still believed, and not transcended as objects/movements/arisings in the True You, one doesn't cross over to the other shore. 3% of still "gripping" and not transcended separate self arisings (very very subtle ones at the end, just mere "Individuality") prevents the full Realization of ones True Identity. They all have to "go". It is like the mindstream runs in oneself, and doesn't capture ones attention. Nothing of it. The mindfulness stays, it is all a magic show. There is no more "external" world, just a magic show of hologram like lucid appearances, hovering in Infinite Nothingness. Suffering (psychological suffering, or resistance to what is here and now) has stopped at that point. Then, it all becomes a magic show. It is totally clear what the essence of the magic show/movie is. Nothingness. without suffering. Sure, the Magic Show is a deception/Illusion. But what else is there to do for the True You? The Real You can not gain or loose ever. But it can manifest the show. And just a disclaimer/warning, because I write very freely from the absolute side of the street, tending to ignore the relative side of the street while writing this way: When you start to think while the separate self is still intact, that you can not gain or loose ever: Well, Maya will give one a nice smack demonstrating that one (as the separate self) can very well suffer, grow and develop, loose and gain. Karma is well and alive when the separate self is not fully transcended). That leads automatically to appreciation of the beauty of the show. Appreciation of the beauty of manifestation. With a certain preference of being interested in all these mechanisms. But being interested not in a grasping way, like suffering when one doesn't get to understand it, but more like: Hey let's go for a walk, and if it rains we don't, and do something else. No big deal anyway.... If there is no appreciation of the Illusion/Show, but disgust/horror/discontentment/anything other than marveling at/with the state of things, I would assume there is still a separate self active/not transcended, that then resists/suffers. I personally find the investigation/exploration of the Multiverse, trying to understand the manifestation mechanism, Alien-anything quite interesting. But it no way leads to me grasping to the beauty and bliss of these experiences of understanding or exploring. If something like that would show up in my mindstream, a reaction would arise like: All nice and well, interesting for sure, but starting egoic/separate self-suffering or grasping for it, no way I am doing that, would be rather not so smart. and lead to suffering/resisting, and shutting down the Endohuasca-System (below).... and that would be it (grasping stopped). Selling Water by the River Some Quotes from Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind": "Tashi Namgyel calls the two stages prior to experiencing enlightenment recognizing awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] and setting up awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] . One-taste yoga establishes the foundation for awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] to emerge. In non-meditation yoga the practitioner: ...proceeds from the perspective of having seen the benefit of the aforementioned [special] samadhi. Generate a fervent desire for this [awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] ] to increase and continue once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown "The commentary merely alludes to these changes withthe brief passage from Gampopa, "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind" (TN, p. 5oo).These and other changes, however, are described in much greater detail in the oral tradition, especially by Rechung.'" Rechung says that the practitioner "unties the chakra knots that prevent the full experience of mental and divine bliss, respectively." [the Endohuasca-System of the Body, at least in my theory, see https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ] Attachment (zhar ba) is transmuted into great enjoyment (dga 'chen).The practitioner finds great bliss (bde chen) simply from experiencing ordinary phenomena as they arise in their own way. The natural spontaneity of the mind is freed. Bliss replaces misery." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown That is how at least developed for me. And the end of the game: "According to Tilopa, such uninterrupted, effortless mindfulness finds no refuge (gtad so) in any particular events of the mind because of their inherent emptiness/clarity, so that awareness-itself turns back on itself and naturally crosses over [to Enlightenment]" "In short, crossing over [to Enlightenment] happens at the time when every single sensory experience—appearance and thought—are viewed as clarity/emptiness and movement/emptiness with absolute certainty." [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed] "Tashi Namgyel's root text explains how nonmeditation yoga ripens in three stages: At the lowest level, it becomes possible to maintain undistracted mindfulness of the simultaneous mind [simultaneous mind = nondual] at any time, so that it is unnecessary to limit the practice to formal meditation sessions. Seeming appearances arise "like a mirage." [mere luminous appearances hovering in Nothingness]. At the middle level,awareness-mindfulness continues day and night. The subtlest flow of shapes that arise is the mind's self-illumination. At the highest level, awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] stays even throughout all these subtle forms [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed, including any feelings/thoughts of Individuality/being separate from the Totality/Reality]. Continuous awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] in the face of everything experienced is great nonmeditation. (TN, p. 697) I highly recommend the book, it is truly awesome. It is a synthesizing text of the Mahamudra-Tradition, quoting many books of the tradition and integrating them.

Yes, I also resonate with that wording/pointers. The pointers have also been done in the "One Mind" form: The Zen Teachings of Huang Po: "All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong in the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured." "Our original Buddha-Nature is, in highest truth, devoid of any atom of objectivity. It is void, omnipresent, silent, pure; it is glorious and mysterious peaceful joy - and that is all. Enter deeply into it by awakening to it yourself. That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete. There is naught beside. Even if you go through all the stages of a Bodhisattva's progress towards Buddhahood, one by one; when at last, in a single flash, you attain to full realization, you will only be realizing the Buddha-Nature which has been with you all the time; and by the foregoing stages you will have added nothing to it at all. You will come to look upon those aeons of work and achievement as no better than unreal actions performed in a dream." " This pure Mind, the source of everything, shines forever and on all with the brilliance of its own perfection. But the people of this world do not awake to it, regarding only that which sees, hears feels and knows as mind. Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling and knowing, they do not perceive the spiritual brilliance of the source-substance. If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe without hindrance or bounds." So, the pointer of the "One Mind" can also be used perfectly. I believe it is only important that when talking about the "One Mind", it has to be fully empty (see statement from Huang Po above, in red). Like Moksha writs "It is incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all. It has aspects (love, seamlessness, immutability, timelessness) but it is beyond attributes." Selling Water by the River

Beautiful description. We agree here. Some "technical" musings: At some points, all the pointers (necessarily including duality) collapse. The Reality manifesting them contains them all. What a good pointer can do is shut up the thinking mind and make it rest in suchness, so that the Absolute can reveal itself. To get the clouds away from the sun. I personally like the pointer "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising is showing up" where the Nothingness is described in such a way points to a specific state (like Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, or Cessation). The Absolute is (by definition) still present there. As Nothingness. And I like it because "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising are showing up" clarifies what is more fundamental: Not the the full illusion-clear-light-show of imagined arisings ("the world"), but the Nothingness "beneath" it. The Absolute essence of manifestation, nondual, Nothingness. The show can disappear, the Nothingness/Absolute not. this "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arisings are showing up" which can also be called the Void or Infinite Potential, (as you do), is a state on the extreme end of the dream, a duality compared to the full show going on, as you write. The nice thing how Halaw (God is Nothingness) uses Nothingness as Absolute is: He describes the Nothingness as present throughout, also while the Dream-Show is active, as the essence of all appearance. Or the Absolute. Halaw uses Nothingness as synonym for the Absolute. Absolute sounds a bit like a thing, although its philosophical definition and the way you use the pointer/signifier pointing to its referent (Absolute Infinite Reality itself , the One without a second) is absolutely correct. The advantage of Nothingness when used for the Absolute is: you can not mistake it with some kind of object, some kind of "thing". But as you correctly write, the Absolute it is neither existence nor non-existence, and because of that neither an Absolute that can be confused with an existing thing, nor Nothingness which can be confused with non-existence, capture Absolute Reality fully. And the Absolute (or Nothingness in the usage of Halaw) is, as you write, "incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all" [bold markings by me]. Nondual, Oneness, Infinite, One without a second. And Nothingness/Absolute as "its" essence. "The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness." Madhyamaka-style, the Middle Path. And how to conclude all the musings above? With a pointer that is maybe even better than Absolute or Nothingness? A pointer which at the same time makes the most sense after having passed the Gateless Gates? So with a nice Koan, "technically" the most precise pointer, but a pointer that can be pretty useless before the Gateless Gate. before the Gateless Gate, a Koan is mainly a concentration object, after the Gateless Gate a Koan is the technically most precise pointer to the Reality that contains all pointers/signifiers pointing towards "It". Here it comes: “An ancient pond/ a frog jumps in/ the sound of water.” Water by the River PS: Maybe in the next life, I am done writing about pointers, and only stutter little Koans and smile

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said: That's clever. But let me challenge this. Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing. I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. > The separate self or witness vanishes exactly with it. Absolute Reality is initially unaware of itself of no appearance/coffee table arises, but IT has got the potential for sentience, when some appearance shows up. Without appearance imagined/manifesting, NOTHINGNESS. Yes, your Essential Nature, or Infinite Reality itself can never vanish, but it can be unaware of itself if no appearance arises/is being imagined. Nothingness. Not nothing, but a Nothingness initially unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with Infinite Potential to manifest/imagine any possible show within itself. I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject, fully nondual when a coffee table shows up, watching itself. . I know, sounds nuts... , but feels wonderful. And when there are no separate self arisings, the coffee table watches itself. And later, when a human thought stream is needed for practical daily business, that appears also within you. But doesn't-need to. True You is still there when the coffee table watches itself, no human identities necessary. Optionally these can be imagined, but the True You is fully fine without them. And any scary-reaction-arisings to this state of things are just protection-mechanism of the illusion/game, also arising in You. Please excuse when I started rambling with these musings again... Selling Water by the River.

7 hours ago, FlyingMan said: As long as you want to learn FROM him, he's your best friend. But criticize him, or point out his self-deception, and you're the asshole. I think it's pretty damn obvious though. I have a similiar feeling as Moksha. There are a lot of teachings in the spiritual marketplace that declare halfway up the mountain as the peak (a lot of Buddhism also, I would estimate a much larger share than 90%), and he had to distance himself against these teachings. Like with the no-person/no-self stuff (and even Nonduality is often misunderstood, and can be achieved way before final realization) that doesn't go all the way. Its tricky trick business, and putting the finer points in language is a daunting taks, since the state/stage descriptions are often used differently. So lets see if he can translate his realizations and awakenings into a stable basis. I hope he gets stable access to the bliss&love of his True Core. He would more than deserve it. And lets hope the movies they will once make about the first really serious psychonauts and the first encounters with non-human alien intelligences (fascinating book on that with some working hypothesis on these topics, like DMT-IV: Reality Switch Technologies: Psychedelics as Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds, Gallimore) will include a happy ending, at least when it comes to Leo. Water by the River

Although I agree with all you have written, Salvijus, there is a third formulation that at least I prefer: The coffee table observes itself. Perceptions perceiving themselves. When it feels like that, it is stable. At least for me. And if the coffee table is gone, and you are gone, you are not aware of yourself (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, Cessation). But "Nothingness & Infinite Potential", with a potential for sentience. That is when all dualities collapse in the Always Here Reality that One truly is. And when being awake to That Nothingness/Absolute Reality in daily life, one is not a Witness or a human, but One has a witness or human. In the Reality that One is. Totally nondual. Then "one" gets out of the way, and lets Awakened Awareness do what the you/human did before. And at least in my case, that works more smoothly than the illusion that was in place with the separate self-show before. Water by the River We are that Reality. When you understand this, you see that you are Nothing, and being Nothing, you are Everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

The Clap of the One Hand/Reality/True You is still there when the light-show of the visual field, and every other formless arising, is switched off. Then "It" is just Infinite Potential, Nothingness, initially unaware of itself. Perception and Awareness (which is always "of" some appearance) comes when something appears. Before that, "It" is initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. Nothingness with a potential for awareness (of something). In one of my last posts, I described Massaros (Conversations with a Sceptic) example of Infinite Vastness/Nothingness, and suddenly a water pistol is imagined: Before that, no awareness, no nothing. Just Infinite Potential/Nothingness. Initially unaware of itself. So what is more fundamental? Switch "everything off" (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, Cessation), et voila.... But then it is not nothing, but Nothingness, since IT/You has the potential for sentience, and Infinite Potential, since "It/Reality" can be aware of something if something is imagined/manifested/duality appears. Infinite Potential includes Infinite Intelligence and Infinite Love and so on.... When you contact this always here Reality/True Being/Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness-Suchness deeply, and it becomes your True Core/True Identity (which it has always been, but one preferred playing the games of mistaken identity/separate self), then the clear light show of the visual field automatically becomes less important than the Always Here Reality/Abyss. The light show can actually go dark. Nothingness. You are not aware of yourself there, that would be too much movement. The eye can't see itself. But You/Reality has the POTENTIAL for sentience. That Infinite Nothingness is that in which "everything", every appearance the Visual Field, floats in in a nondual way. IT is always here. Behind your eyes, so to speak, and literally . The Nothingness behind your head, and "around" your Visual Field. The Nothingness "below" and in every appearance. Actually every appearance IS this Nothingness, appearing as appearance. Its the Groundless Ground of everything. It is that which gives you absolute Freedom, and Eternity in the palm of your hand. Practically speaking: When the "access" to the Absolute is available in a stable way, it is this aspect that "one" tends to talk about values highest, and identifies with. Not so much the Illusion-Light-Show. But of course the Nothingness is the "substance" or groundless ground of all appearances, in a total nondual way. They are not separate. But the Nothingness/Infinite Potential is more fundamental than the Appearance Clear Light Show. Selling Water by the River

Psychedelics are awesome when done together with meditation. I believe that efficient meditation systems (like for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown), explained in an efficient way, plus Psychedelics (but with coaching from somebody who has walked the path to the end and knows the traps) is the future. Where there is potential, there are (as ususal) also risks and traps. Let's look at Wilbers perspective on the risks and downsides: Main Points from Wilber: The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. That somehow it just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it doesn't quite cause the transformation. It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David data will say that you know for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation permanent transformation it has to be basically in endogenous and not exogenous it has to be has your own. See my Endohuasca-Theory and Links to it above. The people that do use both and use it as a sacrament I think an enormous bit out of it. My personal opinion: When you think that the meditation path to make it permanent is not doable for you (for whatever excuse, like genetics) , or seems to unpleasant, maybe you use an inefficient meditation system. Try the one a mentioned above (Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown). I get no roalties or kick-back-paymanents by the way, just love the method/system Agreed, most meditation system on the market have an abysmal "success" rate of Enlightened Ones. But there are some really good ones also. And non of these efficient systems have used Psychedelics + good coaching on top. That is where I believe is the future. Exploring the Multiverse is all nice and important and a wonderful pioneering effort. But as soon as you draw your love/happiness out of the sublime beautiful experiences/understandings, you are playing the same samsaric game of every unenlightened sentient being chasing good emotions to avoid suffering, the usual merry-go-round-cycle. But on a very high level, with quite a show . When psychedelics boost the narcissm/grandiosity of the separate self, well: Best regards from Maya, she just loves you too much to let you go... If you can be "gaslit" on any realization from psychedelics and need to put your foot down: Well, probably the realization of your True Identity (Reality itself) is a bit shaky, or a bit preliminary. The Real Thing can't be shaken. Because You are It, like in "never can not be It". And if you dragged home an alien from I don't know where, and feel like you have become the special-alien-of the day, maybe check if you have received a very seductive love-letter from Maya herself, and consider ordering the Men in Black for the Alien, together with their Flashthing/Neuralyzer that can make you forget: https://meninblack.fandom.com/wiki/Neuralyzer And maybe that Neuralyzer makes you full empty, makes you get rid of the last filters of the separate self, which are just a very very empty, already nondual/mere appearance "feeling" of individuality, a vastly intelligent, potentially "alien" nondual nothing, understanding a lot of the mechanisms of God and the Universe, but still a nothing with the last filter attached to it: Individuality-Arisings (in Wilbers wording, the Transparent Witness, see Religion of the Future), "seeing/looking at" a vast mere appearance Multiverse hovering in Nothingness. So not fully empty yet. And that is the "last few percentage clouds" blocking stable realization, or the sudden Full Enlightenment. Because if the last filters/elements of the separate self go, you can sustain the realization/bliss sobre in daily life.... . Because, if you understood/got rid of all separate self filters IN the psychedelic state, why shouldn't you be able to keep that Realization in daily life? The world gets a shimmering lucid hologram like imagined appearance-illusion-show when you have engaged your Endohuasca-System, which is done with getting rid off these last separate-self elements, see my previous post. At least my experience, and that of countless others in the history of mankind. Why should exactly the Psychedelic-Aficionado not be able to do that? No Endohuasca-system? Well, the receptors in the body seem to be working just fine... Or maybe a different Buddha-Nature? Sorry, just kidding... And if there is no Neuralyzer around, maybe try an efficient meditation system, get to the last stages of Nonmeditation-Yoga (spontaneous automized meditation without a doer still active) And after having used the Neuralyzer or an efficient meditation system, after having looked deeply into the Empty Abyss of your own True Nature/Nothingness, when you are really everything because you are really totally Nothingness (with no 5% clouds remaining), maybe then go hunt for the alien again. But this time, not for getting the love and sweetness of Understanding-experiences or whatever to break the cycle of suffering, but to express the bliss and love of your True Nature that you have then 24/7 going on from your own core. And if one feels gaslit about what I have just written, see the point above: "If you can be "gaslit" on any realization from psychedelics and need to put your foot down: Well, probably the realization of your True Identity (Reality itself) is a bit shaky, or a bit preliminary. The Real Thing can't be shaken. Because You are It, like in never can not be It." And if in doubt: Call these gentlemen, let them take care of the Aliens, look at the Neuralyzer/Flashthing, and get fully empty. But still, the Psychedelic pioneers, facing the unknowns of the Multiverse, exploring Alien intelligences, some even catching an Alien beast or two and dragging them home, going alone boldly to where no one has gone before, facing dangers that nobody else faced before... If there is some material for the movies of the future looking back to our time, where if not there is the true hero's journey to be found... I just hope that they get back from the trips, integrate their experience, get their mindstream awakened all the time, and live happily realized ever after, radiating the love of their own True Being, and maybe even getting the roalties from the upcoming movies of the Psychedelic Heros Journey based on their biography! Bon voyage! In the meantime, It’s for sure one of the most interesting shows on this planet to be seen. At least, it for sure has my attention! Respectfully Yours & mind the possibility of the Bear Manoeuvre in the signature-link below Selling Water by the River

Beautiful post, agree on all of that. Enlightenment is both a state (Understanding/Realization and certain energetic nondual/mere groundless appearance state) but also a waking up/removing the clouds to the Reality/True Self/Enlightenment that is always here, that is Absolute Reality itself, and when called Buddha Nature the core of each sentient being, and knowing that to have always been the case. Like with many pointers to the Absolute, the pointers highlight only one side of the coin, like Advaita True Self/Absolute Consciousness (positive definition), and Buddhist Madhyamaka Emptiness (negative definition). And in Absolute Reality, these paradoxes collapse, since they all point to the same Reality/"thing/referent". Absolute Reality contains the pointers. Once realized, there is no paradox or contradiction left, it makes fully sense and couldn't be any different. It doesn't stay paradoxical. I also believe (but I can't proove it) there is a kind of "Endohuasca-System", that when one is (1) proficient enough with the separate self arisings (like knowing them, even the most subtle ones, like a separate self feeling/sensation/localization/concept/... ), and (2) is fast enough in spotting them/cutting them off (since they arise much much faster than normal thinking, like maybe 20-30 arisings of separate self sensations per second, while thinking "against" these arisings brings maybe maximum 1-3 thoughts elaborated per second, if at all). that explains why you can't "think" your way to shutting off the separate self, thinking is just too slow. It has to be automized, Nonmeditation Yoga-style of the Mahamudra-System. Spotting them when you know their nature as Emptiness/Consciousness/Suchness immedeately cuts them off, at least with some proficiency in the Skill of Reckognition of the Mahamudra-System (see Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown). funny thing is: When one tries to do that, the emerging of thoughts frequency gets much faster. Like a protection-mechanism of the Illusion/Maya. When I learned to finally be fast enough and got faster than this increased speed of thought-emergence, and didn't get distracted or "captured" anymore by the high-speed-emergence-flow of thoughts, the following happened: (1) and (2) trigger some kind of "Endohuasca-System" in the body, which removes the solidity of the visual field, makes it increasingly luminous/hologram/mere appearance/groundess floating in Infinite Nothingness, like Psychedelics do. And it also bring a lot of bliss. https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ That was at least my experience: first major parts of the separate self Gestalt Structure/emerging thoughts go, then the visual field/world becomes nondual/luminous/mere appearance hovering in Infinite Nothingness and with that as a basis, more and more subtle separate self elements/clouds go and all of that in a funny merry-go-around (meditation experience/state -> Realization/Understanding -> Deeper meditation experience/Luminosity/... -> Deeper Realization/Understanding of more subtle separate self element, ....) , like a positive feedback-loop, slowly burning away the clouds. Which can sound maybe harsh or bad or unpleasant, but it is exactly the opposite. Somewhere along the path it was learned that these separate-self arisings are to a large part all the unpleasant stuff, suffering, dissatisfaction,... , and that evaporated as well. And while resting in a very mindful, empty state, when the mind-stream starts getting nondual (and even before that), I learned that I can produce my own good emotions/states, like directly getting the bliss from within. That disabled then slowly all the separate self arisings that didn't feel well. So actually a lovely process, best thing that has ever happened to me. In the beginning, its difficult, but at some point it becomes quite pleasant and continues by itself. Pushing the rock over the mountain-pass, and then it rolls downhill without effort. Please excuse the length of my musings. Selling Water by the River

Beautiful summary. Please allow me some musings on the topic.... What You/Reality/Truth are is/was/will be always the case, can not be different or change. And yet "IT" can be clouded over, like the sun can be clouded over with clouds of separate self arisings (the illusion of being something different than what one really is - Nothingness, but with potential for sentience, and the whole infinite field, nondual. "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche"). looking at a solidified (not just mere luminous groundless appearances) and external (out there, not nondual) world. The sensations of "solidity, not luminous/mere appearance" and "external, not nondual" are specific arisings that can arise in the opening of Reality that one really is, but they don't have to. If they don't, IT/Truth becomes much clearer (mere appearance show hovering in eternal Nothingness). This "on top added" clouding over (separate self arisings) can go, can be understood, seen through. The thought arisings of the person move in You like for example the wind. Arising, but just something happening in Big You/Reality. Then, one has always access to the real state of things (what is always true). Blowing away/seeing through all cloud-arisings of the separate self via certain meditation methods over the years blows away all clouds. Psychedelics are generating a hurricance to blow away most/nearly all of these clouds at once, but it leaves one not able to blow them fully away afterwards without the hurricance. Psychedelics are wonderful tools to get previews and explore the Multiverse/manifested reality, and combining them with efficient meditation methods to see through all (!) separate self arisings is the best of both worlds. Enlightenment has been defined as realizing/deeply understanding/awakening to that the separate self doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. It just seems to exist, like a clouding over of the sun, an illusion, seeing the rope as a snake for example. The sun in this metaphor is what would always be true, always be the case. The Eternal Enlightenment that is always here, the Buddha-Nature at the core of every being, who are already enlightended but don't know it. The sun/IT has always existed, always exists, and will always exist. The clouding over is temporary, a temporary state, and can be removed. The clouding over state (sun not visible, but still "there" would be a state with no Enlightenment) corresponds to an unenlightened mind-stream, with duality and solidified "external" world present. But that doesn't make ones True Nature/Eternal Enlightenment a temporary state. Ones True Nature/Original Enlightenment/Buddha Nature is more fundamental than any state in it, clouded over or not. And if one fully realizes ones eternal empty True Nature, the eternal aspect dominates in ones being. It is more fundamental than the passing and changing illusory show/river of appearances. The eternal unmanifest empty side of Nothingness is more fundamental than the flowing river of manifestation/appearances/"Appearance side of manifest consciousness,->Szyper, Infinite Consciousness". The clouding over can be temporary be removed by a "hurricane/strong wind" of psychedelics, removing 95% of the clouds. When the hurricane/wind is gone, it snips back to being clouded over, and you can't see the last 5% of clouds while tripping (fully empty, but some individuality still left), because the sun already looks very visible. And exactly these last traces of individuality are what makes it cloud over later again. And these last 5% can make a lot of trouble, because they make you think you already removed all separate self arisings... here is where it can get a very interesting show, involving terrestrials/heaven and earth/and maybe even some extraterrestrials. Possibly sometimes even a case for these gentlemen, with the flash-thing... The clouds can be removed fully by seeing through them all, normally done by hundreds of hours in these states. Then, you can realize yourself to be the sun fully. And the difference between 5% clouds remaining and 0% is quantum. Or a deep deep shift in Identity, which remains. Understanding what one really is, and realizing it to ones core. A cloudless sky with only the sun is something fundamentally different than a sky with 95% sun and some clouds remaining. That last shift is certain. One can not miss the last shift. On all other Awakenings/Enlightenments before you are not sure if they are final. It feels like, but one is not sure. This one is. If one has to convince oneself that "this" is it, or decide on it, or if anybody/anything can shake one/gaslight one, well.... it is not it. Which is logical, because if one knows what one is one knows what one is, and if one is not completely sure, then one doesn't know what one is. And it brings the potential for psychological suffering to stop, because psychological suffering IS a big building block of the separate self arising Gestalt/structure. And if one fully see through that (the last 5% of the clouds), one gains the potential to literally cut off these suffering-arisings. If one fully knows what one really is (like in "no doubt possible"), and one can cut off all separate-self psychological-suffering-arisings, who or what could lead you to doubt or gaslight you? Hope I didn't lecture too much. Maybe some find that helpful. For those that don't, please don't do the bear manoeuvre shown in the link in the signature, listen to the "Blackeyes Peas, Where is the love" video, and enjoy the show. The point of the ride (separate self show) is the ride, and if that is still attractive, let's continue the ride... Selling Water by the River @UnbornTao: Can't help it ....

Hi Phil, some ideas: 1) Does the real You/Reality/Infinite Consciousness possibly change? Not the appearance side, but the Absolute Subject, the Absolute Empty Abyss? Reality itself? Of course it can't. You are You. The Absolute Subject. You never changed, can't go anywhere. You are all there is, and ever can be. The appearance side is just an appearing imagined show, relative stuff, always changing. Not stable. And not really existing, just a mirage happeing in the True You. 2) If you fully know what you are, how can you loose that? It can solidify again if you loose the nondual/mere appearance state when the psychedelic wears off. But it doesn't have to. It can stay stable without psychdelics. And that can be done with transformative practices, mainly meditation, to become fully empty, no separate self left, that you ARE the whole infinite Reality outside of which nothing exists. And its not that you need to be a genetic freak or something, or ten years of facing the wall. With the right techniques, it is very doable. 3) Maybe "From my experiences with psychedelics, it seems that I am enlightened in that state but come down to an unenlightened state when the psychedelic wears off" is not the Enlightenment that Ralston is talking about? And all the other enlightened sages? Maybe the "enlightenment with psychedelics" is not the final thing, exactly because it wears off, and you can only have the full insight when you are fully empty, and zero filters of a separate self left/not transcended? I know, many won't like this idea. And that only the full transcendence of the separate self finally ends suffering. And still, its only logical that to become the Totality of the Infinite Reality that You are, the separate self has to go... because IT IS SEPARATE and not the total nondual infinite Oneness of Absolute Reality. Feel deeply into you heart: If you dont fully become what you already are, if you don't give up every filter of the separate self that cuts the infinite nondual reality in pieces, makes it solid, takes its luminostiy/mere groundless appearance/magic show character.... These separate self arisings still running when you got out of the psychedelic state are what solidifies your world again. And they were never fully gone in the psychedelic state. If you get this nondual mere appearance state sobre without psychedelics, then you are sure you have transcended and cut down the separate self arisings sufficiently and fast enough, else you wouldn't get that state that allows insight into Absolute Reality or the True You. And then its stable, you don't come out of it, it is always there. And you can also call that a state. But it is always accessible and present then, and you fully understand/know/Realize that the Real You/Reality/Infinite Consciousness doesn't change, only what appears in it, the appearance side. So it is a certain paradoxon, but only before entering the Gateless Gate. Afterwards it is as clear as day, and everyone who has had that has used terms of IT being permanent and the final realization. When You know what You are, You know what you are and what Reality is. And that never changed and can't change. There can only be "confusing-arisings" in it, clouding the understanding and realization of what you are. But when you can touch/understand the always eternally here Reality, everything changing and appearing seems more like a magic show, an illusion, just appearing, in that which you are that stays constant. Of course it is all nondual and essentially the same, but the appearance side is TEMPORARY/CHANGING/FLOW/ILLUSION, while the Real You/Fully Empty Subject/Abyss never changes. Because it is NOTHINGNESS, nothing specific at all, unchanging, Reality itself, the Empty Abyss of the Eye that can't see itself. Because it couldn't change. It is the only "thing" than never can change. It is Reality itself, fully empty, but with the potential to manifest itself as any show possible and marvel at its temporary illusion show. Water by the River

For example like this gentleman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Bennington or these here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_in_the_21st_century Many of them couldn't complain at all on the fields you mention above. What you really want is the bliss of your True Nature. Nothing else will suffice. At least not permanently. Not that anyone gets lost halfway up the mountain and permanently stays there.... Of course one would be stupid not to create a happy life on a relative level (Maslow 1-5, partner, friends, financial abundance, creative expression, self-actualization) if one has the ressources and circumstances to do so. But it still won't permanently & fully fill the gap. Selling Water by the River PS: By the way, even Maslow later added stage 6, "Transcendence"...

@Javfly33 That is what you are doing if you are hating. Or complaining. Or wanting to have the world different and being emotionally attached to it. Maybe the job decription below this post (Empty Mirror) is something worth considering to aspire to? Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

.... among other realizations/understandings about the Real You and Absolute Reality itself, also understanding that the separate self is a structure/process of doing something like shown in the video below, leading to an everlasting cycle of sometimes suffering and being a little bit less (or a lot less) than permanently happy. And then stopping doing the rock-thing. And being happy ever after, at least what psychological suffering is concerned. If somebody disagrees on the no-more-suffering part: You can keep your Awakening/beliefs, and my consciousness-stream keeps its "own" little endless reservoir of the bliss of our True Nature. For more technical explanations, see my previous posts. Bon voyage Water by the River PS: With such a statement, the participation fee for the "rolling the rock up the mountain contest" is certainly well paid. Lets end with this: “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.” ― Kalu Rinpoche

On a relative level, maps make sense. From the level of the Absolute Level, they are just appearances. Did you notice that you yourself just "drew" a map with your post? Giving higher importance to "no map" on a relative level? Good maps on a relative level can point to the Absolute (and how you can rest in your True Being) as long as they never claim to be more are more than a finger pointing to the moon. If we take the moon as a metaphor for the Absolute. A good map is your boat to the other shore. The finger pointing to the moon. A signifier pointing to its referent. Cast your boat/map into the stream when you are there (or directly before, Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra-system for example), but not before.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

When I read for example what Meister Eckhart wrote, or The Tao the Ching, or the Songs of Naropa, I do know which realization these masters had, and out of which emotional states they were writing. Humans who have fully ACTUALIZED their potential, and therefor were FULLY human. I just got wondering in which forum I was writing these lines, rechecked, and got reassured that at least name-wise I am in the right place I guess we have to end with that statement: Lets agree to disagree, and I wish you permanent freedom from suffering from all my heart, although you doubt that is possible. In the end, this life or the next, IT will get you anyway Bon voyage! Water by the River

Physical/bodily pain is always possible. Buddha? Laozi? Shankara? Nagarjuna? Padmasambhava? Milarepa? Tilopa? Yeshe Tsogyal? Was that the meak "I don't care, I shut up, and go back to my cave crowd" , or did they leave their mark on humanity, in the face of resistance? Something that still resonates in the core of humanity even today, millenia after? Something that for example no Roman or Indian Emperor can claim for himself. I doubt that they could have done what they did with still substantial/normal psychological suffering going on. Would have been, well, not so attractive for their audience. And considering what they wrote, they were connected to their True Core. Water by the River

The mystics of this world were no "plants". Some founded world-religions, and acted courageously and fearlessly in the face of oppression and violence. A lot of them were persecuted, some even executed, and many fearlessly stood their ground to the very (and often gruesome) end. They were no weak personalities or plants, but were connected to their own innermost center, which flowed through them and gave them strength, courage and fearlessness. They were grounded in their Real Being, knowing themselves to be indestructable at their core. Do you honestly think that having access to divine bliss hinders one in acting in the right way when it is called for? Water by the River PS: And as explained in the thread above, there is a difference between bodily pain and psychological suffering (or resistance to what is here and now). The lacking, or at least highly highly reduced psychological suffering or resistance to what is, does not stop one acting in the right way, but rather empowers you to do so with the strength of your very True Core.