Water by the River

Beautiful summary. Please allow me some musings on the topic.... What You/Reality/Truth are is/was/will be always the case, can not be different or change. And yet "IT" can be clouded over, like the sun can be clouded over with clouds of separate self arisings (the illusion of being something different than what one really is - Nothingness, but with potential for sentience, and the whole infinite field, nondual. "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche"). looking at a solidified (not just mere luminous groundless appearances) and external (out there, not nondual) world. The sensations of "solidity, not luminous/mere appearance" and "external, not nondual" are specific arisings that can arise in the opening of Reality that one really is, but they don't have to. If they don't, IT/Truth becomes much clearer (mere appearance show hovering in eternal Nothingness). This "on top added" clouding over (separate self arisings) can go, can be understood, seen through. The thought arisings of the person move in You like for example the wind. Arising, but just something happening in Big You/Reality. Then, one has always access to the real state of things (what is always true). Blowing away/seeing through all cloud-arisings of the separate self via certain meditation methods over the years blows away all clouds. Psychedelics are generating a hurricance to blow away most/nearly all of these clouds at once, but it leaves one not able to blow them fully away afterwards without the hurricance. Psychedelics are wonderful tools to get previews and explore the Multiverse/manifested reality, and combining them with efficient meditation methods to see through all (!) separate self arisings is the best of both worlds. Enlightenment has been defined as realizing/deeply understanding/awakening to that the separate self doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. It just seems to exist, like a clouding over of the sun, an illusion, seeing the rope as a snake for example. The sun in this metaphor is what would always be true, always be the case. The Eternal Enlightenment that is always here, the Buddha-Nature at the core of every being, who are already enlightended but don't know it. The sun/IT has always existed, always exists, and will always exist. The clouding over is temporary, a temporary state, and can be removed. The clouding over state (sun not visible, but still "there" would be a state with no Enlightenment) corresponds to an unenlightened mind-stream, with duality and solidified "external" world present. But that doesn't make ones True Nature/Eternal Enlightenment a temporary state. Ones True Nature/Original Enlightenment/Buddha Nature is more fundamental than any state in it, clouded over or not. And if one fully realizes ones eternal empty True Nature, the eternal aspect dominates in ones being. It is more fundamental than the passing and changing illusory show/river of appearances. The eternal unmanifest empty side of Nothingness is more fundamental than the flowing river of manifestation/appearances/"Appearance side of manifest consciousness,->Szyper, Infinite Consciousness". The clouding over can be temporary be removed by a "hurricane/strong wind" of psychedelics, removing 95% of the clouds. When the hurricane/wind is gone, it snips back to being clouded over, and you can't see the last 5% of clouds while tripping (fully empty, but some individuality still left), because the sun already looks very visible. And exactly these last traces of individuality are what makes it cloud over later again. And these last 5% can make a lot of trouble, because they make you think you already removed all separate self arisings... here is where it can get a very interesting show, involving terrestrials/heaven and earth/and maybe even some extraterrestrials. Possibly sometimes even a case for these gentlemen, with the flash-thing... The clouds can be removed fully by seeing through them all, normally done by hundreds of hours in these states. Then, you can realize yourself to be the sun fully. And the difference between 5% clouds remaining and 0% is quantum. Or a deep deep shift in Identity, which remains. Understanding what one really is, and realizing it to ones core. A cloudless sky with only the sun is something fundamentally different than a sky with 95% sun and some clouds remaining. That last shift is certain. One can not miss the last shift. On all other Awakenings/Enlightenments before you are not sure if they are final. It feels like, but one is not sure. This one is. If one has to convince oneself that "this" is it, or decide on it, or if anybody/anything can shake one/gaslight one, well.... it is not it. Which is logical, because if one knows what one is one knows what one is, and if one is not completely sure, then one doesn't know what one is. And it brings the potential for psychological suffering to stop, because psychological suffering IS a big building block of the separate self arising Gestalt/structure. And if one fully see through that (the last 5% of the clouds), one gains the potential to literally cut off these suffering-arisings. If one fully knows what one really is (like in "no doubt possible"), and one can cut off all separate-self psychological-suffering-arisings, who or what could lead you to doubt or gaslight you? Hope I didn't lecture too much. Maybe some find that helpful. For those that don't, please don't do the bear manoeuvre shown in the link in the signature, listen to the "Blackeyes Peas, Where is the love" video, and enjoy the show. The point of the ride (separate self show) is the ride, and if that is still attractive, let's continue the ride... Selling Water by the River @UnbornTao: Can't help it ....

Hi Phil, some ideas: 1) Does the real You/Reality/Infinite Consciousness possibly change? Not the appearance side, but the Absolute Subject, the Absolute Empty Abyss? Reality itself? Of course it can't. You are You. The Absolute Subject. You never changed, can't go anywhere. You are all there is, and ever can be. The appearance side is just an appearing imagined show, relative stuff, always changing. Not stable. And not really existing, just a mirage happeing in the True You. 2) If you fully know what you are, how can you loose that? It can solidify again if you loose the nondual/mere appearance state when the psychedelic wears off. But it doesn't have to. It can stay stable without psychdelics. And that can be done with transformative practices, mainly meditation, to become fully empty, no separate self left, that you ARE the whole infinite Reality outside of which nothing exists. And its not that you need to be a genetic freak or something, or ten years of facing the wall. With the right techniques, it is very doable. 3) Maybe "From my experiences with psychedelics, it seems that I am enlightened in that state but come down to an unenlightened state when the psychedelic wears off" is not the Enlightenment that Ralston is talking about? And all the other enlightened sages? Maybe the "enlightenment with psychedelics" is not the final thing, exactly because it wears off, and you can only have the full insight when you are fully empty, and zero filters of a separate self left/not transcended? I know, many won't like this idea. And that only the full transcendence of the separate self finally ends suffering. And still, its only logical that to become the Totality of the Infinite Reality that You are, the separate self has to go... because IT IS SEPARATE and not the total nondual infinite Oneness of Absolute Reality. Feel deeply into you heart: If you dont fully become what you already are, if you don't give up every filter of the separate self that cuts the infinite nondual reality in pieces, makes it solid, takes its luminostiy/mere groundless appearance/magic show character.... These separate self arisings still running when you got out of the psychedelic state are what solidifies your world again. And they were never fully gone in the psychedelic state. If you get this nondual mere appearance state sobre without psychedelics, then you are sure you have transcended and cut down the separate self arisings sufficiently and fast enough, else you wouldn't get that state that allows insight into Absolute Reality or the True You. And then its stable, you don't come out of it, it is always there. And you can also call that a state. But it is always accessible and present then, and you fully understand/know/Realize that the Real You/Reality/Infinite Consciousness doesn't change, only what appears in it, the appearance side. So it is a certain paradoxon, but only before entering the Gateless Gate. Afterwards it is as clear as day, and everyone who has had that has used terms of IT being permanent and the final realization. When You know what You are, You know what you are and what Reality is. And that never changed and can't change. There can only be "confusing-arisings" in it, clouding the understanding and realization of what you are. But when you can touch/understand the always eternally here Reality, everything changing and appearing seems more like a magic show, an illusion, just appearing, in that which you are that stays constant. Of course it is all nondual and essentially the same, but the appearance side is TEMPORARY/CHANGING/FLOW/ILLUSION, while the Real You/Fully Empty Subject/Abyss never changes. Because it is NOTHINGNESS, nothing specific at all, unchanging, Reality itself, the Empty Abyss of the Eye that can't see itself. Because it couldn't change. It is the only "thing" than never can change. It is Reality itself, fully empty, but with the potential to manifest itself as any show possible and marvel at its temporary illusion show. Water by the River

For example like this gentleman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Bennington or these here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_in_the_21st_century Many of them couldn't complain at all on the fields you mention above. What you really want is the bliss of your True Nature. Nothing else will suffice. At least not permanently. Not that anyone gets lost halfway up the mountain and permanently stays there.... Of course one would be stupid not to create a happy life on a relative level (Maslow 1-5, partner, friends, financial abundance, creative expression, self-actualization) if one has the ressources and circumstances to do so. But it still won't permanently & fully fill the gap. Selling Water by the River PS: By the way, even Maslow later added stage 6, "Transcendence"...

@Javfly33 That is what you are doing if you are hating. Or complaining. Or wanting to have the world different and being emotionally attached to it. Maybe the job decription below this post (Empty Mirror) is something worth considering to aspire to? Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

.... among other realizations/understandings about the Real You and Absolute Reality itself, also understanding that the separate self is a structure/process of doing something like shown in the video below, leading to an everlasting cycle of sometimes suffering and being a little bit less (or a lot less) than permanently happy. And then stopping doing the rock-thing. And being happy ever after, at least what psychological suffering is concerned. If somebody disagrees on the no-more-suffering part: You can keep your Awakening/beliefs, and my consciousness-stream keeps its "own" little endless reservoir of the bliss of our True Nature. For more technical explanations, see my previous posts. Bon voyage Water by the River PS: With such a statement, the participation fee for the "rolling the rock up the mountain contest" is certainly well paid. Lets end with this: “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.” ― Kalu Rinpoche

On a relative level, maps make sense. From the level of the Absolute Level, they are just appearances. Did you notice that you yourself just "drew" a map with your post? Giving higher importance to "no map" on a relative level? Good maps on a relative level can point to the Absolute (and how you can rest in your True Being) as long as they never claim to be more are more than a finger pointing to the moon. If we take the moon as a metaphor for the Absolute. A good map is your boat to the other shore. The finger pointing to the moon. A signifier pointing to its referent. Cast your boat/map into the stream when you are there (or directly before, Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra-system for example), but not before.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

When I read for example what Meister Eckhart wrote, or The Tao the Ching, or the Songs of Naropa, I do know which realization these masters had, and out of which emotional states they were writing. Humans who have fully ACTUALIZED their potential, and therefor were FULLY human. I just got wondering in which forum I was writing these lines, rechecked, and got reassured that at least name-wise I am in the right place I guess we have to end with that statement: Lets agree to disagree, and I wish you permanent freedom from suffering from all my heart, although you doubt that is possible. In the end, this life or the next, IT will get you anyway Bon voyage! Water by the River

Physical/bodily pain is always possible. Buddha? Laozi? Shankara? Nagarjuna? Padmasambhava? Milarepa? Tilopa? Yeshe Tsogyal? Was that the meak "I don't care, I shut up, and go back to my cave crowd" , or did they leave their mark on humanity, in the face of resistance? Something that still resonates in the core of humanity even today, millenia after? Something that for example no Roman or Indian Emperor can claim for himself. I doubt that they could have done what they did with still substantial/normal psychological suffering going on. Would have been, well, not so attractive for their audience. And considering what they wrote, they were connected to their True Core. Water by the River

The mystics of this world were no "plants". Some founded world-religions, and acted courageously and fearlessly in the face of oppression and violence. A lot of them were persecuted, some even executed, and many fearlessly stood their ground to the very (and often gruesome) end. They were no weak personalities or plants, but were connected to their own innermost center, which flowed through them and gave them strength, courage and fearlessness. They were grounded in their Real Being, knowing themselves to be indestructable at their core. Do you honestly think that having access to divine bliss hinders one in acting in the right way when it is called for? Water by the River PS: And as explained in the thread above, there is a difference between bodily pain and psychological suffering (or resistance to what is here and now). The lacking, or at least highly highly reduced psychological suffering or resistance to what is, does not stop one acting in the right way, but rather empowers you to do so with the strength of your very True Core.

Hi Trenton, deciding factor for me was a very efficient meditation system (Mahamudra), outlined in "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown", and several other books. I have rudimentary to average knowledge of most meditation systems, and this one is unique. In my humble perspective, the highest developed system on the planet (most people praciticing and refining it in Tibet for the longest time of any system, at least to my knowledge). It details the steps and what happens like no other system I am aware of. If you try that, and add some psychedelics, at least in my perspective that is the best shot you have. And you can not know what your future path brings. Balance your life, and see what comes! Bon voyage! Water by the River

Agree. My example-guy up there at least didn't get cold in the first place, contrary to Wim

Dear M A J I, the claims that psychedelic (exploration, understanding, whatever) is superior to Realization with meditation or meditation+psychedlics will continue for the foreseeable future for many many years. Because, you know, among other things, sitting in meditation can be less fun than dropping the magic pills. . And meditation Realization affectionados claiming that the cycle of suffering can end, approving of which would rock the psychedelic-only-boat a bit too much. Because it would mean while suffering that not the favourite psychedlic/magic pill/whatever project of the separate self would be indicated, buuut stop, sit on the pillow, and marvel at the many wonders maya can throw at you to get you back to playing along her game. But lets not do the bear manouver: Causes duality, raises the blood pressure, and just isn't as cool as can be. If then the psychedlic only fraction wises up, realizes that the bear manouever is a bit less than sovereign and implies "other", and then also chills doing it the coooool way, then we all can sing along happily with the Black Eyed Peas.... I know, that is not going to happen, world-peace is also not right around the corner. But maybe some get inspired to join the chill-team? Water by the River

Sorry N+1 dimensions... Or is Infinity not infinitely large? But fun and interesting to explore for sure. Until its no longer so. Then, something else is played... Hey, its a free country. Every being has the right to play its favourite game. But "without underlying motives such as escaping suffering"... Good luck with that (honestly!) & fun on the journey and Bon Voyage Water by the River

Yes. I thought for a long time that the Absolute is maybe somehow "behind" space, or being bigger than the Visual Field (that was already at least sometimes nondual at that point in time). Or that it encompasses the visual field. At some points, it dawns on oneself that all of these "probings", attempts, investigations.... are just more arisings happening within you. And the space is imagined IN YOU. If you try to looke for this line, drawing this line, imagining this line, you imagine it WITHIN the space you imagine. It all appears or is being imagined. You will never find the Absolute in any object, any arising, any location. Any self, any appearance, any anything. But this process of "emptying out" everything, to fully BECOME it, to see each an any arising (thought, appearance, understanding, whatever,n+1) as arising in YOU, you have to become fully empty. Nothingness. But yet, that process has to be walked earnestly to the final end, and can not be shortcut. Also because the Absolute is also infinite, IN-FINITE. Nothing you can measure, find, define. Nothing finite. No arising/appearance, however subtle. Even formless arisings (thoughts, formless subtle level lightshow, whatever), are not it. Because IT is timeless. Always there. Formless arisings also come and go. Nice book on that topic: Szyper, Infinite Consciousness. And then, when You are fully empty, you can be fully everyting, nondual. A more concise formulation, and much more beautiful than my ramblings above: “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.” ― Kalu Rinpoche Perfect. If the thinking can solve all open existential questions, you can rest in the Suchness that you are. Nonmeditation-Yoga. You cut off all separate self arisings in real time (since you are proficient enough in that "cutting off" immediately when these "thought-capsules" arise out of consciousness. They havent even been elaborated out, that comes later. Funny thing is, at some point you notice they emerge with the full content of the thought already "in there", and that gets elaborated later and more slowly. The Skill of Reckognition in Daniel Browns "Pointing Out the Great Way". Getting that high-speed cut-off in place triggered for me the step from just cutting thoughts/separate self arisings, aka emptying the mindstream while the "external" world is still solid & out there, to the visual field getting nondual, centerless, luminous mere appearance. So that transforms the Visual Field slowly to mere groundless appearances. You feeling localized ends, the localization dissolves. My theory for that (but I have no proof), is that the Endohuasca-System of the body gets activiated. To cut off efficiently all "Great Doubts/Questions", as I termed them for myself, like the questions above on the nature of space/time/separate self, you need to understand the answer and "how it works". Or you push through with Koan-Meditation concentration-style. That also works, but I feel very sure that this would have taken me 5-10 times longer, and would have been much much (!) more unpleasant. How to "finish" time Mahamudra/Pointing Out the Great Way Style, and end up at the so called "Always Here Mind", the eternal or rather timeless Infinite Consciousness, thats another topic. If you are interested let me know. That is described for example in the Yoga of Unelaboration Chapter of Pointing Out the Great Way. Assumption/Theory: Meditation-induced and body-produced Endohuasca (DMT, 5-MeO, ....): What I assume is that a certain level of proficiency of cutting/transcending of the "harder/deeper" searate self arisings, and the "hard/deeper" existential questions (like space/time/....), or transcending and letting them just play out, but being aware of them as objects, being able to cut them anytime, see their arisings out of consciousness, their flow with in, and their disappearance, triggers probably some kind of Endohuasca-System, your body producing similiar chemicals (DMT,5-MeO, MAO-Inhibitors....) that you can also trip with when supplying them externally. To trigger that means staying in full mindfulness for a long time, having taken the meditation off the pillow and not getting distracted. The effects are very similiar to Psychedelics (nonduality, luminous mere appearance, groundlessness of all appearance, Infinity, timelessness, even shutting off the separate self/Ego (although not completely mostly. Some quite subtle feeling/filters/lenses of perceptions of Individuality (sth watching sth.) often remain): https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ and that gives you the multiple hundreds/maybe thousands of hours that one needs in the "nondual timless infinite mere appearance visual field state" to get aware of every last subtle separate self arising. But that can be done in everyday life, at least while not being distracted too much. Of course, getting previews by psychedelics to confirm that there is something to be reached, to get to know the Nondual Infinite Field of mere appearance, maybe even visiting the causal Whiteout-Godhead of Infinite Potential: Awesome. But probably will not suffice in most cases to get one "on the other side". Then, finally, at the very end, the separate self is just a very very subtle feeling of individuality. Body, Location, Duality, time, all have gone a long time ago. Its just an Infinity of groundless mere appearance visual field showing up, limitless, already nondual(!) and luminous/mere appearing. And "a" nothing that is only aware of that. Like nearly nothing at all. Very very subtle and murky. Roger Thisdells No-Self, stage 4. And then you are ready for the Big Bang, that then can happen all by itself. Sudden Awakening. One can not force it. Crossing over happens by itself, resting long enough in that state, and letting it ripen. If one wants to do that only by tripping... well, I never read from or about one case where Full Enlightenment/Realization actually worked. But maybe there are cases. It takes too much time to get rid of the last subtle veils of the separate self, and by tripping you can also be distracted by the show/understanding/whatever. It always reads like some separate-self elements still well and alive and not transcended, no fully empty "No-Self" having looked totally in to the Abyss of Nothingness,but having had the hell of an infinite nondual mere appearance experience of a (for sure) very interesting visual field bubble or God or Alien or I don't know what. Plenty of stuff in the Multiverse to explore and understand, especially considering that it goes upwards the Holon-Pyramid forever (Planet-Monad creating/maintaining all perspectives on it, Galaxy-Monad, Universe-Monad, Multiverse-Monad, n+1). And plenty of stuff of the properties of God to project on the remains of the separate self... You are very welcome. I believe there are two elements installed in the universe, in order to not give Maya every advantage (she already has enough): 1.The radiating bliss/love of the Realized Being. 2. Any separate self teaching "down from up high" with any "superiority-raditation", marveling at its own ingeniuty/superiority is normally just keeping the illusion going, because: If you are all, how can you be superior to anything? Compassion and humility, and helping "others" look around the next corner of their own path, is indicated. Not sustaining the illusion with "I see the Matrix", and its "Saul Goodman". Sorry And luckily, that attitude isn't very sexy for the fellow seekers, see point 2. above. On the other side, how are realized Dzogchen-Realizers depicted in Tibetan Buddhism: Radiating great humor. Why? Nothing "other" holy anywhere.... at least nothing where making jokes is forbidden. But not a condencending/superiority humor that has fallen in love with itself. Because what is there that a "you" could be "superior" to? Superior to another aspect of Your Own Being? Easy way to cut reality in two or create duality, so a rather not so smart idea.... To tell the difference between these two kinds of humors, the hard-wirings of humans are usually quite well calibrated. Selling Water by the River

Hi Mike, I am not sure if I fully get your questions. If my answer below is not on topic, please excuse, and let me know. Below are some ramblings on the topic of space, and how it developed for me going from "self-existing-reality-aspect" to "imagined in Reality/Infinite Consciousness". which was one of the deciding steps boosting nonduality/mere groundless appearance in everyday life, making the constant intuiting of fundamental Nothingness/Reality much more proficient. At least for me, space itself was one of the last things to go from "self-existing" to imagined. "Time" as concept goes before, and is replaced by the Always Here Mind/Reality. Space is one of the first "Archetypes" necessary for manifestation in this dimension, and one of the last things to be seen through. Space is not fundamental (or self-existing), it is also imagined. Space (any kind, 3D, 4D, non-euclidian, whatever. Infinite amounts of different space-dimensions in Mathematics) is not any kind of Absolute Reality. It took me a long time to get this, thinking along quite similiar lines of thought as these you write above. Space is normally seen as such a fundamental that (at least for me) didn't even considering questioning that, or rather wondered how space "fits into the picture" of Ultimate Reality,which has cost me quite some time. The perspectives of Consciousness/Reality of the Leavitt picture (hyperbolic Euclidian Space of Visual Fields Bubbles, see previous posts) are not situated in any kind of space. The "Absolute or Nothingness/Primary Consciousness/Reality unaware of itself when no arising is imagined" is more fundamental than space. It is fundamentally totally spaceless. Space is imagined in it. As one of the first arisings. If there is nothing, there is no kind of space. Just Infinite Potential. See the Massaros Waterpistol example (Conversations with a Skeptic) I wrote about in previous posts. With space, I mean any kind of space, 3D, non-Euclidian, n+1 dimensions. Also, Indras Net is not situated in space. Leavitts Picture is a version of Indras Net. Both taken together are a nice working model. An Infinity of perspectives are imagined, and all but your own perspective forgotten in space. Psychedelics can loosen that quite a lot, you get access to more than "your" perspective of this life. But One Absolute Consciousness/Reality is aware of them all (since there can not be anything else than THAT, which is also a direct realization), and "that" also happens to be the stuff/material of all appearances, totally nondual. Perceptions perceiving themselves. And with no appearance/arising, this Reality is unware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. To make it more practical: If you have ever remained aware while going from Dream Sleep to waking state (or the other way round): There is a spaceless state in between, with NOTHING arising. Infinite. No Space. "vast", but not even vast. Just infinite. It is not 3D-Space. Just Nothing. No separate small you. Only Infinite Potential. Similiar to Deep Sleep (blackout), but like an infinite Nothingness/darkness suffused with light, timeless since there is no movement, just nothing. Your perspective is not situated in space then. Space gets imagined in the dream, and in "waking-life", so "before" or "after" THAT (and to be more precise, since there is no time/change in it, it all gets imagined IN IT). And of course, waking life is also a dream, just more coherent, happening in IT/You/Reality. With enough meditation/practice awareness can carry into these states, and instead of the usual Deep Sleep Blackout it can become something as described above, which of course makes the structure of reality more clear. Maya-Deep-Sleep-Blackout replaced by something more revealing (Infinite Darkness suffused with light, and not just a blackout). And I know, all of that is imagind right now, but these states still can occur. And its quite beneficial for understanding to experience them. All this logical reasoning can't get you to the big Awakening into what You really are. But a coherent explanation can help calm the thinking-mind during meditation (on or off the pillow), especially when its no longer only concentrative meditation, but meditation without concentration-support-object, and make it "compatible" for the Realization. And can help you boost your nondual/mere appearance visual field during that. With that goal, I write these lines. Not to logically get you to a conclusion/reasoning that you are IT, but to open the door to be available for that Realization in certain fully nondual states when you are fully empty of separate self arisings, and all perceptions appear as mere appearance. But I agree that the Zen-guys are way smarter than me: They would just mainly stay shut up, smile at you and make you meditate (boost nondual states), and say something like "go looking for the face before your parents were born". Which is actually the same thing I try to point to above. It is up for the reader if these ramblings of mine are of any worth. The Realization is a direct insight/understanding, Consciousness/Reality understanding itself, since there is nothing else. It is not "I always come to this conclusion, that is why I can rule out the rest, so that must be it". That is all nice and good (and necessary), some of the preliminary Awakenings/Enlightenments coming before the Big Bang, necessary to a certain degree and profiency to make the Mindstream "compatible" for the Big Bang. It is more like something undeniable, like a punch in the face. It is an unmistaken insight into what the True You/Reality are, no doubt/error possible. Self evident. Dead-certain (literally). The possibility that one can be gaslit on that Realization is something like a joke occuring in You/Reality. Or, as said in Zen: You can smile the devil in the face, and not be shaken in your certainty of What You are. Or: Who knows the spring does not drink from the cup. If "you" still can doubt it, it is not It. The more compatible your mindstream is with the Enlightened Mind (meaning no possible concept not seen through as thought arisings-in you, the last to go after space is "individuality" of a separate anything), the higher the chance for the Big Bang described above. Small "you" can't force it, but create circumstances where IT can happen (That is a large chunk of the essence of Nonmeditation-Yoga in Mahamudra). You become the whole Infinite "Thing" afterwards, with nobody watching "It". Perceptions perceiving themselves, Steven Norquist style. See my last post if you are so inclined. And yes, that haunted emptiness is the price to pay. But it just happens to look like there is a "real" price to pay, looking like that from before that Gateless Gate. Having gone through it, there never was a price to pay. To the opposite, you win It all. Everything. Everything there could ever be. What you "loose" is just the grip of the separate thinking/feeling arisings of the separate-self-Gestalt, which was nothing more than a a pattern of illusion-arisings (technically (and beware, reductionism ahead): patterns of phenomena-arisings of a separate self=structure=probability distribution of arising, a process of arisings with a certain systematic to it). Arising in you, but not self-existing: You can happily exist without it. What remains is Reality itself, and a person that isn't less functional than before, but more so (because you are not standing in the way of the optimal rollout of Consciousness/Reality). Short form: "I am not a human, I have a human". To fully get it, you need to awaken to it. Or said differently: If you would fully understand all of the above, you would be realized. On how long its stays "haunted", and how much this haunted reaction lasts: I write more about that in my last post. Maybe that is interesting for you, and I hope I didn't miss the questions too much. If I would have known that back in the day, I would have been faster and could have avoided some time-consuming mistakes. That is why I write it, not to lecture anybody or proove any fixed ideas of mine. The Ego is in large parts a cluster of beliefs, which it has to defend life-or-death style, because for the Ego its exactly that (at least with important core-beliefs). Similiar to what the bear does in the video in the signature of the post. If its not useful for you, just disregard it. In case I rambled on, please excuse the deviation. Selling Water by the River PS: If anyone feels inclined to comment on the post, please check if the bear-move in the link below (signature of the post) is being performed or not, and preferably the Blackeyes Peas and "Where is the love" (or something similiar) is being played in your emotional continuum. Then, any questions, comments, and suggestions are even more welcome than when the song is not playing. PSPS: "If God as you say are exploring though us does that mean those two bodies in that conversation is not looking at each other but that God is imagining and holding both of them within itself? And all these ideas of eyes and perception that aren’t actually in my direct experience are the ways I’ve been taking a false ownership of what’s really God’s experience of the other body as something belonging to my body?" Yes, pretty much like that. Various aspects: 1) Leavitts Non-Euclidian perspectives style, and most perspectives forgotten + 2) Indras Net that any perspective reflects all others + 3) aspect that for example even an atom or molecule has some kind of proto-perspective, reacting on similiarly leveled perspectives (=Holons in Ken Wilbers system, and similiar leveled = other molecules). And Holons/Perspectives all the way down (to infinity, quarks, ....) and all the way up (to infinity, like Galaxy-governing-monads, Universe-governing-monads, Multiverse-creating/sustaining/governing monads, and infinitely higher up n+1, and also completely "OTHER" realms, unimaginable to human mind with space/time/.... For that, see Jac O'Keeffe). And then one could start wondering of how much of that one can have explored/understood of all that manifested stuff in one single human lifetime. Next to Nothing. Infinitesimal so to say, if one is mathematically-prone. So maybe instead one fully realize ones essence and structure of Ultimate Reality/True You as Infinite/Nondual/Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness, and LIVE THAT as much as possible? With the bliss it brings? Not to talk about the "hang-over" of the (imagined of course) good Karma/tendencies that brings for ones next imagined manifestation (only if one is inclined to believe in that, which is of course not absolutely real, but part of the imagined show). But that would still be nice for the big show that "we" are all celebrating here So basically, with that model above, you don't need space as self-existing reality. Any maybe consider replacing the God word with some bundle like "Infinite Consciousness/Reality/God/True You". Just to not project/make God some self-existing external reality outside of you. Ultimate Reality is nondual, Infinite Consciousness Nothingness perceiving its own manifestations, perceptions perceiving themselves without separate self elements "clouding" the true state of things. God is not somewhere outside. God is right here. What imagines all of that? Biggest possible accident: Projecting/Confusing the Individuality-Arisings of the Separate-Self-Gestalt on God/Reality/Infinite. That is the worst possible seductive kiss from Maya imaginable. Yet, quite a show....

Yes. Fully agree. Bodily pain can of course still arise. (1) But suffering as psychological resistance to what is can fully go. (2) Especially the continued dissatisfaction/suffering cycles of the separate self can end, drowned by a current of bliss directly from the source of ones True Being. If you don't share my humble opinion, please feel invited to check that in the cases of many many enlightened beings in the history of mankind. What made them so attractive for their fellow companions? That they suffered, were confused, and sometimes a bit frustrated and not so-loving-as-possible, in the usual merry-go-round-cycle, as their fellow nonenlightened company? I guess these two observations/statements/claims (1) and (2) will always be a problem, and correspondendly be attacked and criticized by anybody trying to declare some kind of stage/state/awakening/"realization"/understanding/whatever as final or superior which doesn't deliver that freedom from suffering. And if not, why not be so kind and declare that ones version of the path to heaven does NOT provide that which every(!) being wants: Permanent bliss and happiness, and an end to the cycle of dissatisfaction and suffering. Or (smarter move probably) maybe add at least the announcement that one intents to someday later deliver these goodies also. So ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch the onslought. I know, stupid as I am writing all of that, I can't complain.... Luckily, the video with the bear is already in the signiture, and will hopefully protect the writer of these heretic lines. Well, Caveat Emptor, and bon voyage! Water by the River PS: Not that I would recommend doing something like this, but just some idea of what Nirvana/Nirvikalpa/Cessation can do to the survival-imperative. The guy didn't even flinch or move a muscle. Warning: Can be quite disturbing to read/watch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thích_Quảng_Đức Probably Britney 24/7 for a month would have gotten him anyways... PSPS: I have to admit that Moksha writes much more beautiful posts than yours truly

Somebody heard the sound of the One Hand clapping here? Did a No-Self hear it? Sorry, just kidding along. If there is doubt that what Steven Norquist describes is Enlightenment, then Sorry. Just my humble perspective. Then just lets agree to disagree. Bon voyage Selling Water by the River

Steven Norquists descriptions are spot on. But the reactions of "Hauntedness/scary/nothing there/groundless" are ... more arising of the breaking-apart (or rather transcending) of personality/Ego/separate self dynamics at the face of the Abyss/Nothingness. You get used to that after some time. Not the small you, but the big You. The small you at some point just travels through You/Reality like the wind, like any other arising. Not anymore a separate self, but a part, something of the big You/Reality, still functioning, but not separate. Which then after some getting used to, is not scary, but becomes lovely. Norquist also said that he (and anybody other realizing that) wouldn't trade that realization and the ensuing states for anything else. The True You is all of Reality, so nothing more falls away than certain separate self illusion arisings in You/Reality. So nothing really essential falls away. Just some kind of mistaken Identity/Illusion. That caused a lot(!) of suffering in the first place. You are infinitely more than these separate-self arisings. But that realization is "protected" by those scary scary arisings (Haunted, No Person there, Green Mile,...). Courtesy of and best regards from Maya herself. How much its scary... ...depends also on the speed how fast you get dropped into that Abyss of the Real No-Self. If its fast, its probably more scary than on slowly dissolving over time. Then its more like a mild scary fear, like Francis Lucilles Enlightenment: https://francislucille.com/2019/01/spiritual-awakening/ Steven Norquists progress was rather fast, see his bio. There is a video-lecture of him, where he tells his story. The gateless gate can seem scary from the opening entry. Something like: First time? Hope my taste of humor is not misunderstood.... . In case it is, please recheck for relaxation the last video with the smoking stuff I posted. Selling Water by the River Norquist: "99.999% of the spiritual books and teachers out there are completely wrong. They are wrong for one simple reason, they are not enlightened, they don’t know what’s going on. So in order to keep the illusion of personality, of the idea that there is something or someone, they invent stories, or theories, or ideas, wear special clothes, perform certain rituals and so on. They teach this stuff. But the truth is so simple, it is laughable. Now let me make a clear distinction on one point, mystical experience is not enlightenment. You may have mystical experience, see God, get abducted by aliens, receive messages from an angel, contact your spirit guides, the list could go on. But always and forever, no matter what is going on the truth is, every experience, mystical or ordinary is a happening of Universe/Consciousness." 99.999% is probably a bit much, but a scarily large part teaches something like nonduality/God-whatever/Infinity with certain aspects/filters/lense of certrain remaining separate self elements still well and alive, and identifying with that. Maya is a High Performer . Nearly 100% success rate. And she can also handle the candidates on the finishing line also quite well...

Water by the River

I personally try to make it more about bliss, and not just avoiding suffering . Gives it a more positiv spin... But I get your point. Why do you have the impression that I make spirituality about avoiding suffering? In my opinion, the most important thing is to understand what the Absolute/Reality/True You is. Since its actually all the same, I can write it with the ../../.. . That Understanding/Realization brings on top of the insight the freedom from the cycle of suffering. And if it doesn't, maybe something to reflect about? Which is of course only my humble perspective, and that of virtually all Spiritual Traditions and their enlightened showcases. And maybe that is no coincidence that really understanding and realizing Ultimate Reality/True You/Absolute brings along freedom from suffering? As a benevolent gesture, that nobody gets lost and stops halfway? Like, blissed out halfway up the mountain? But hey, its a free country. Anybody can play the game that their hearts resonate with.... Bon voyage! Water by the River

Mindset: Be a 2-year-old, like the gentleman below. And just look if its doable. And scare the adults And a Meditation Technique that allows you to carry the meditation as soon as possible (but not before) off the pillow, into daily life. For example "Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". Starting with the Yoga of One Taste, it can be done off the pillow, while working and in daily life. Realistically, only when you can use large parts of your life for meditation you can bring enough "momentum" to get visual field to become nondual and mere groundless appearance. But that can be done living a normal life with a normal job. At least my experience. Starting Yoga of One Taste (for example in the book above, Page 382, " Bringing Forth Awakened Wisdom by Cognition- and Perception-Simultaneousness"), you can take the mental continuum INCLUDING thoughts as "meditation-object", and still don't loose Mindfulness. Its an advanced technique, and needs previous concentration meditation and practice on the pillow. But if you can do it, you can use large parts of your day. Maybe not highly distracting conversations in the beginning, but most of the rest. (One Taste in the Yoga of One Taste means Nonduality. The visual field gets nondual if you do that long enough. The One Taste of all arisings thoughts/perceptions/exerpiences/world bubble). Take that book as your bibel (if you are so inclined ), practice, read it 5-10 times, because you need practice-experience to understand the more advanced parts. For me, it worked nicely. And some Psychedelics to get previews of what its all about.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Off-topic, I know.... . Sorry. But still hiring Water by the River

What the "bottom" or Absolute is, is pretty clearly defined. Absolute Reality itself, with the potential to switch off the show, and still be there. That you and everbody can potentially realize, because you are it. Then you can have for sure many many understandings on how the whole show works, how Reality/God works, how this and any other dimension works, on what God/Reality can do, ... , n+1. Which you can go on exploring when you are either a) fully resting in your True Being also in daily life, having no filters/lenses/not transcended separate self elements not already seen though, and having cut off suffering and getting bliss directly from the Source. The last "filter/separate self-element" by the way is "a" fully empty nothing (not Nothingness), "watching" the Infinity, "being aware" of it, but not fully being it at the core: A transparent feeling of Individuality (which already has no form, is empty, you are already nothing you can point to at this stage), the last remnants of it, already nondual and the visual field fully mere appearance. But that last filter-elements is precicly what prevents getting the "thing" stable in daily life. And I bet an experience of the nondual field, or even of the Infinite Godhead, is "coloured" and experienced through that last very subtle filter. b) go on exploring having had experiences of the Absolute, and still some filters/lenses/not transcended separate self elements intact (in these experiences) and of course also in daily life, where exactly these filters/lenses/not transcended separate self element prevent: 1) realizing the Absolute without a bias (that is when the Absolute gets more properties than it really has. Because any property would limit it. Nothingness Halaw-style) 2) more important: not being able to be the nondual/groundless/mere appearing reality in everday life, and of course not getting the flow of bliss from "there" which then replaces the suffering of the separate self elements. These last filters/building blocks of the separate self are very subtle, very tricks, extremely fast occuring. You need to be very fast in spotting them, and letting them flow through you and not watching through these filteres/lenses, and you need to be very familiar with them. I am convinced, that most people need hundreds of hours (at that phase already off the pillow in daily life) to get familiar and fast enough to let these lenses/filters of the last separate self building blocks flow through them (similiar to any other object) , and not look through them as lense/filter. If you look through them, it kills the state of nonduality and the world being a dreamlike mere appearance mirage, floating in groundless Nothingness (These states by the way is what you also can get with Psychedelics). If you transcend these separate-self-building blocks/filters/lenses/contractions(!), probably the endogenous DMT-System of the body starts producing some kind of Endo-Huasca cocktail, see the fascinating research of https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ , especially chapter Chapter 24 – Endohuasca Magic. Your own illegal psychedelics factory in your body . Shortform of the above: a) Fully realize your True Nature (indicator: no more suffering-cycles in daily life) and then go exploring/understanding the manifestation and manifestation mechanism of reality and Reality or b) go exploring before the bliss of a) is in place. Both paths are valid, path b) can lead to path a) and non-suffering in daily life if done correctly (maybe with a bit meditation of the efficient variety added). Of course, the path a)-variety of ~98%+ of the Spiritual Marketplace doesn't work. I can fully understand Leos dislike of selling the weak soup of just No-Ego/No-Person or an "Enlightened Person (cringe) having Nonduality and perceiving themselves to be that", but that is another topic.... I have never questioned path b). I just question giving path b) a higher value and meaning than path a). For me, that is a bit like voluntarily hitting your knee with a hammer, and calling that superior than hitting the nail, and repeating it. Sorry, love ya all.... ( : I only wonder why anybody would call path b) with suffering "higher", and all paths a) "crap" and inferior. The state-highs and wonderful experiences delivered by understanding reality/God in my opinion only ease the pain of the remaining separate self suffering cycles. Yet, these Insights/Understanding-experiences are for sure truly wonderful and marvelous, probably the most beautiful experiences one can have, savored by highly developed souls which are attracted by such sublime experiences/understandings. But still: Caveat Emptor. But hey, what do I know? NOTHING . On good days a bit of NOTHINGNESS . And "I" love it, and IT loves me. . And I am fully open on the understanding and exploring of path b). Fully. Let's see what kind of alien stuff the brave and ingenious psychonauts drag home. I really look forward and am very curious. Selling Water by the River PS: Please don't beat me with the Broomstick . But I would be really curious on a substantial feedback from Leo. Thanks!