Water by the River

I see, thanks for the clarifying. Then I didn't fully understand your post on the first try. And I agree to your interpretations. He has so much potential with his path so far, and this site and its impact, and he is a very smart cookie... Lets see if he uses it for good, meaning and final Great Enlightenment, or a weird-hybrid of staying top-dog of something less than enlightened. Challenge is: He really is a pioneer, seeing things on his trips that probably nobody ever has seen (but I don't know, previous cultures&traditions also did lots of psychedelics and were also not dumb). Including some "Jester-elements" at the higher levels of the manifestation-pyramid seducing him with the self-importance they grant him during these trips&afterwards, with best regards & a kiss from Maya herself. Gotta keep the illusion working, not that God forbid, too many really wake up. The only question is if he is a) smart enough with b) good enough Karma to keep the narcissm/self-grandiosity/self-importance/ego-boosting in check and at some point really crosses over to Impersonal Enlightenment. Which really is death of anything ego/narcissm. My personal perspective is: self-importance is like a filter to intelligence and intuition, it makes dumb or prevents Infinite Intelligence to giving certain insights. But to have a Lila, you need Illusion. And the biggest motivating element, the biggest illusion-creator, is self-importance. Don't ask me how I know that.... yours truly did this mistake way too often, until a lucky kind-a-suicide happened.... Guess we stay tuned how it all develops.... Would be nice if it works out well for Leo & show & forum, since I haven't seen a place like this yet. If somebody is aware of a similiar forum, also well frequented with many ingenious and interesting characters, with a bit less solipsistic madness confusion and the capacity to tell the difference between solipsism/narcissm and transcendence, and more humble and honest striving to kill/transcend the remnants of the veils of the separate self, but with a similiar level of openness to for example psychedelics&innovation&clear description of the higher stages, please let me know. My suspect would be Dharma Overground, but I have no experience with that place. Guess there is no place like this here, but don't know.... Water by the River

Well, the effects of the Solipsism video on some parts of the audience are pretty well documented with comments like that... And "Guided Exercise For Realizing You Are God" apparently can also be hijacked and be interpreted in funny ways.... Show must go on... That is why until now in all Spiritual Traditions touching these areas where it gets a little bit, lets say, unconventional and complicated, with huge potential for misunderstandings... were kept, uh, pretty secret, and communicated to the aspirant at the right stage, and then carefully explained and put into context. With a vow of secrecy, to not confuse further generations. But in the age of youtube, bye bye to these checks and balances of the secret stuff forever. Probably, the resulting fallout can not be avoided.... How many suicides and lives destroyed on a relative level by rampant narcissm and solipsism gone off the edge in a "hey man, its all imagined, why don't you wise up and get it?!"-manner are going to be needed? God knows.... Will be interesting how long it takes for sub-cultures like this forum here to wise up, and to put that into a clear and appropriate context of caution & watch out, unfortunate things a) b) and c) can happen when interpretation is less than careful, and loaded with separate self narcissm. Normally, I am not that critical, but here it is clear for everbody with eyes to see that this solipsistic and narcisstic "creativity" (not to say borderline-madnesss) will hurt some authors of certain posts.... Razard, do me a favour: Please don't disintegrate your life on a relative level. Honestly, all the best, and Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River

Here: Sorry yours truly Selling Water by the River PS: The mouse is the second independent observer

Yes, stating that in the forum was not the smartest move, compared to how smart he was elsewhere. But hey, everbody has bad days and does less than smart stuff... including yours truly, and everybody else. Water by the River

You don't need to do Zen or be a Zen Master to get Pink Elephants into existence/manifestation. Dumbo did it without that, by having a drink or two too much.... Do you realize that imagining the pink elephant concept came into our language and culture by the scene in the Disney-film shown above where Dumbo accidently drinks too much alcohol? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_pink_elephants And do you realize if somebody wanted to make fun of Leos teachings, and especially the effect of Leos teachings on certain readers, like in Matthew 7:15-20, "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits", it would look pretty much like what you are doing? Matthew 7:15-20 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Water by the River PS: "Oh and here is the kicker you don't know...when you awaken fully, you get to have more sex than any human ever. Because you realize sex is imaginary you can imagine sex, and enjoy it fully!! You will feel the sweat, the touch, every movement every sensation and it will be so real it will prove to you that sex....has always just been you having sex with yourself. As a result I don't need a woman to have sex, I can imagine her and experience FULL SEX, the FULL experience. So guess what? I just proved to you that the truth gets you laid the most!! BOO YA!!" Really sure you are not trolling (either intentionally or unintentionally), and making fun of the whole forum and Leos teaching?

Very interesting collection of quotes. He is definitely smart enough to understand the difference between Solipsism and real Nonduality. But I don't think the dark move you describe happenened. He doesn't need to do that just for his brand. If he wanted money & fame & validation & attention & whatever, he would probably just start the mother of all cults. Smart enough he is.... I believe something else happened here: Many trips, and fully being this Imagined Universe/Multiverse, which he then called God. What I would call Buddhafield with a Buddha/Manager/God of that Reality/whatever you want to call it. Something has to run and be this show. In mystical experiences and/or trips you can become that God. Merge with it, or become it as Identity (Wilbers high subtle and low causal levels). Still not the end of the story. Because: What is the essence of that Buddha/Manager/God of that Reality/whatever you want to call it? Nothingness. And during these trips, it became clear for him that he actually was that. The Reality of that Multiverse/Buddhafield, already a nondual merging with all of that. Sovereign. But not fully empty. So far, so good. Not fully Empty Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness. Wilbers High Causal, Nothingness. The Gateless Gate and Gate-Keeper, after which real Nondual Enlightenment waits.... Steven Wolinsky writes of something very similiar (see below). Funny thing is: His trips have shown him 95%+ of the properties of Reality, and more or less fully shown him how this God/Buddhafield/Void Universe works, merging with it in a nondual way. And realizing that being that was more true to his true core than the everday waking character. But not realizing the Abyss of the Absolute, not the totally empty Nothingness. He thinks he has it, but if one is still aware of an "it", ... But there is/was still a very subtle "he" perceiving "that" or "being" that left. Then he doubted that to be final, doubted everything, and tried to reach out for "something" beyond (see his Video "Infinity of Gods". And he says in the Infinity of Gods video then "conincidentally" at exactly that moment another God/Buddhfield/Multiverse/rReality reached out (by free will) to touch him as God/Buddhafield. Thus maintaining the sovereignity of both him as God/Void Universe, and the other God/Void Universe. Then he postulated an Infinity of other Gods or Buddhafields, just like "him". Basically, he had to deviate from classic Nondual/Infinite teachings, invent the Infnity of Gods theory, to make place for his experience that there was still another God/Void Universe reaching out to him. All of wich exists, but all of which is still form, identity, ... . Not the absolute Abyss of fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or the essence of Reality itself.... and of course, it doesn't really make sense to talk of oneself as the God/Void-Universe running/being this dimension. Even if one is that (because one is all), its too risky to talk like that and make onself confuse or inflate ones separate self/perspective with that larger more encompassing perspective/being (a larger Holon, the Void Universe Buddhafield God Holon containing all lower perspectives/Holons within it), or cause that to happen at others. But that is another topic... That seems to be more or less the end of the road where you can go to with Psychedelics with the separate self not fully gone, but 95%+ gone. An awareness of emptiness, of God, of the Infinity of Gods/Buddhafields/sovereign Manifestations, even an Identity with it. And having ones fellow God-buddies reach out to oneself (Infinity of Gods). With a little bit of confusing the properties of that Buddhafield-God, like sovereignity, and projecting that on himself. But all in all still an awareness OF something. and By something, BEING something..... the very last remnants of a nearly totally empty Individuality/Identity aware of ... [something], whatever that is at the moment. Awakening n+1. At least while tripping. Not fully empty, not fully impersonal, neither while tripping, and definitely not after the trip. But proclaiming that this not empty identity is a higher Awakening than the full empty impersonal Enlightenment to fully empty impersonal consciousness/Nothingness, and then truly being everything. Including the Infinity of Gods, the infinity of other Void-Universes-Manifestation-Dimensions. If he would look deeply into the emptiness (or mere appearance) of all that he experienced during these trips, all his assumptions/concepts/pet theories, all his last remaining last Individuality-arisings, and let of them die, truly die, truly transcend them, disidentitfy, let go.... we could get to see an Enligthenment to true Nothingness, a final waking up to his True Being, being so empty that it can fully hold and be everything, also while not tripping. That would be the end of his grasping for ever new insights, understandings and Awakenings n+1. It would also be an end to him as separate self. I doubt that can be done using mainly/only psychedelics, because of the time one needs in these empty states to truly get rid of every last separate-self arising/and last Identity/any awareness "of" something, without frying ones brains. But I could be wrong on that, I don't know. Lets see if Karma holds that for him Enlightenment on his path. At least from my side he has the best wishes to bask in the final liberation and bliss that that brings. And with that step, he would integrate his teachings with the collected experience of humanity on Enlightenment and waking up, and even push the knowledge into the manifested nature of the Multiverse, or into knowledge about form/manifestation, further. Knowledge of the Absolute (Emptiness/Nothingness) always is the same, at all times, forever. Doesn't change, and can only be realized by being it, letting any cloud darkening the Sun of ones ever burning Primordial Being finally evaporate. Water by the River The quotes from Steven Wolinsky, The Way of the Human Part 3 "In 1995, what “this” was became clear enough for “me” to describe because, for the first time, “I” could “see” that this was beyond the VOID—and, more importantly, there was not one VOID but an infinite number of VOID universes. In other words, the VOID appears to go on forever. However, it does have an end, and when the end is reached, the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE is revealed. To best illustrate this, imagine, you are in an oil well (VOID) in the middle of the Sahara desert. While you are in this oil well (VOID), you have all the experiences contained within that particular oil well universe. From inside the oil well universe (the VOID) an infinite number of experiences exist which are true and specific to and within that particular VOID (oil well) universe only. But when or if “you” were to expand and reach the top of the well and climb out, you would be in the desert (the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE) and “you” could “view” an infinite number of VOID universes (many, many oil wells) which in Quantum Physics could be likened to parallel universes. In India, beyond the WITNESS and the VOID OF UN-DIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS lies the SUPREME WITNESS which Quantum Psychology calls the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE. Now, within “our” VOID universe are the concepts of energy, electromagnetics, gravity, space, mass, time, distance, location, God, enlightenment, One Substance, quantum physics, Archetypes, paths, religions, etc., etc., etc., etc. But these are true only within our one particular VOID universe—they may or may not make any “sense” within other VOID universes. It can be said, then, that the SUPREME WITNESS is beyond the infinite number of VOID universes. The most powerful Archetype in “this,” “our” VOID universe, is the collective concept of GOD. The concept of God and a seeker after God or truth are Archetypes of such magnitude that it impacts practically everyone in the world. Most religions are based on an omnipresent God who somehow rules the universe." and " The “space” between the VOID universes (VOIDs) is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE. For descriptive terms only, this is the difference between SELF-REALIZATION and GOD-REALIZATION. The realization of “NOT-I-I,” the VOID OF UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS is SELF REALIZATION. GOD REALIZATION is BEYOND SELF REALIZATION and the VOID OF UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS. It is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE and it is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE which erases all other dimensions including the VOID. In the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE, even the VOID must be gone beyond. " Only problem with the last paragraph is the definition of the wording. Leos God-Realization corresponds to Wolinskys Self-Realization, and Wolinskis God-Realization is the Realization of the Absolute. PSPS: Yesterday, pretty much by conincidence I drove by and visisted the ruins of Monastery Disibodenberg, where female mystic Hildegard von Bingen lived and worked in the 12th century. I didn't know she was living there when deciding to visit the place. A marvelous atmosphere of a large monastery in ruins, in a forest on top of a mountain, where Hildegard lived and worked. The rays of the Divinity running this Reality/Universe found their ways at all times, all places. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloster_Disibodenberg https://www.google.com/search?q=monastery+disibodenberg&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE3qSH0f_-AhUIn6QKHQHpBHIQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=845&dpr=1.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

Yes, I agree. The picture just can help explaining why there is no external world with 3D-space, but an Infinite Universal Mind/Consciousness (the One without a second) able so split itself (only seemingly) into an infinite number of perspectives, thereby imagining/manifesting a "world". An infinite number of perspectives, of which most perspectives can not perceive the "inside" view of other perspectives. Being a human wouldn't work if one perceives at the same time the perspective of every other being on the planet. But each perspective perceives the "outsides" of the other perspectives, their appearing "body/form". Et voila, there is the manifested world/lila, or Indras Net, without needing any "external" "solid" matter. Made out of Consciousness/Nothingness as its essence, perceiving itself by itself. Francis Lucille called that process of forgetting the other/further perspectives "forgetting in space", instead of forgetting in time (forgetting in time = like in what did one do exactly one year ago. Normally one can't remember, has fully forgotten it. Or is not imagining it right now). Water by the River

" where are the infinite multiverses? and the rats, intelligent and stupid? and razard?" There are no multiverses. Only the perspectives of each holon/being of which these apparent multiverses "persist", or rather are imagined. Indras Net of perspectives, each perspective reflecting and containing all other perspectives/beings/holons/crystals in Indras Net. Picture in the post above (also shown below). Non-Euclidian-Space can contain infinite perspectives, something like in the vision of Marc Leavitt: And the One with a second, or Absolute Infinite Impersonal Consciousness holds and watches all these perspectives, but a "human"-perspective/being is unaware of all the other perspectives, or forgets them "in space", like we normally forget things "in time". Reality is made of perspectives, each perspective containing/reflecting each other, and the "aware" "thing" is the same in all of them: Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. It is also the essence of any appearance appearing in a perspective. But it is impersonal, so empty it feels like death. There is no separate-self, and it doesn't need to make I-feelings or I-thoughts (the separate self, ego) appear. As a molecule, or animal, it can do fine without.... For more of that theory that reality is made of Holons, or perspectives, or Indras Net, see Ken Wilber "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality". Maybe that is interesting for you. Selling Water by the River

@Someone here >@Water by the River perhaps consider making your post shorter and less filled with mumbo jumbo and world salads in a coherently understandable way. selling.Someone here. I already agreed on the length of the post in the post itself. For the mumbo jumbo & word salads: If I define all terms again (like Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, or any word salad/mumbo jumbo of your choosing), the post will would even longer. And we don't want that, do we? Yours truly Selling Water by the River

An opportunity to work on ones Karma by staying calm. Sorry, just kidding But so far, I rejoice in being mainly ignored with my posts and counterarguments I posted on the topics of Solipsism and the like Selling Water by the River

> @Yimpa, how about stating any reasons for your statements? Or logical conclusions? Not today, darling.... all the best Water by the River

Javyfly33: As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion. As long as there is a sense of you existing within something (like a body), there is a delusion. The end. @Yimpa, how about stating any reasons for your statements? Or logical conclusions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_consequence Javfly33 describes in his statement exactly the fundamental process of waking up. If you challenge the central deep structural process of every major spiritual traditions and system, maybe have the courtesy of giving at least some explanatory statements? Like in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning Yours truly Water by the River

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:16 ... just kidding Leos Teachings hold a lot of potential, and my guess is that soon as they evolve over the Solipsistic/Infinity of Gods - phase (please excuse my humble opinion), and no longer confuse a not-so-empty God-(separate)-self with the Absolute Emptiness of the Absolute/Reality, or the Absolute Empty Abyss of Nothingness of Impersonal Consciousness, the "fruits" (Matthew 7:16) will also be marvelous. I guess there is quite a high chance that that will happen. He is smart and diligent, and has published some awesome videos on bias and self-deception and the like, not to speak of all the other videos which contain really some great stuff. But in this Lila nothing is predetermined or certain. So, as always: Enjoy the show, and Bon voyage! As soon as every little subtle remaining -separate-self-arising/lense/bias/awareness of emptiness/awareness of being/awareness of being God or Reality or Alien or whatever, anything at all/awareness of being anything- is transcended/seen&let go/subject made object/ burned and is no longer colouring the experience of Infinite Reality or True Identity of Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, then "burned by the everburning flame of ones own primordial nature —all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." - first part yours truly, second part in quotation marks by Bassui (also below). I wish him exactly this genuine peace and joy permanently in daily life that comes along the permanent realization/waking up. Then one is the whole Enchilada, watching itself, being absolutely Nothing(ness)..... and Nothingness never has a problem, only can contain them... moving around in itself like mosquitoes, but then of the slow flying version, easy to splat/transcend/cutoff. Sorry, probably not a Boddhisattva-style metaphor. More on the mosquitoes see below: So, it seems, until then: With every heroic pioneering effort, there is certain danger. Hic sunt dracones! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hic_sunt_dracones Water by the River PS: The full quote, from Three Pillars of Zen, Kapleau: Bassui: If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none. PSPS: The rest of the Mosquito metaphor: .... And by the way, what one thinks what one is if one thinks oneself to be still anything at all: These are the mosquitos/separate-self-arisings (I-thoughts and I-feelings)/lenses/localizations, buzzing around in True You (the Totality), endlessly annoying, but making the hell of a show.... If they are too fast emerging/moving for oneself to easily squat them all at ones own convinience (genereally, keep the useful ones (the functional character) buzzing, squat the rest, the ones with "suffering" painted on them), then there is meditation/transcedence work to do. The meditation/Transcedence gets the bliss flowing by the way, which is like some smoke that slows down the moskitos, makes them easy to squat/transcend.

And short form of the post above on the Boddhisattva-Vow: Align yourself with the tendency of the Universe/Reality (evolving to ever more complex forms and waking up in as many beings as possible), vow to grow and help as much as possible in the process, both at/with yourself and "others", and get the direct grace/intuition/intelligence of the Totality/Infinite Consciousness (infinitely intelligent anyway) also manifested in your mindstream, at least in a higher degree than just closing down and only caring for ones own "stuff". Bon voyage! Water by the River

Just my humble opinion: Every thought/concept emerging in ones mindstream is not created or chosen by "oneself/ego/person/body-mind". But by the Totality of Absolute Reality, infinitely intelligent. That Absolute Reality manifests a Universe that clearly develops, and grows to more complex forms: atom, molecule, bacteria, plant, animal, human, ... , Alien Mouse, Alien anything, (sorry, just kidding), up to Intelligences govering whole Universes/Void Universes. That is called a Buddha-Field in Buddhism by the way, with a really Buddha/God governing its Buddhafield (manifestation of a Universe). There is an infinitude of Buddha-Fields/Manifestations/Gods or Buddhas governign/running Buddhafields. So a long career path if you like.... If you are interested in that, check out the Supreme Arrray Sutra: https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz Or: An Infinity of Gods/Buddhafields, described in 3rd/4th century CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhāvataṃsaka_Sūtra Just maybe, if one conforms to what the Universe is doing anyway...... which is getting itself to grow, develop, and wake-up (self-realize its True Being in as many beings as possible, once the capacity is in place), and helps it waking up once one has woken up onself (which is the base of the Boddhisattva-vow: Once you wake up, not to keep that Awakening and its resulting bliss for yourself, and live happily ever after, which by the way is the easiest thing to do then, without the minor annoyance/effort of "helping" "others") telling "them" about which paths up the mountain actually work, which just circle around the mountain without ever getting closer to the top, which paths stop at 95% of the mountain, and which just rack up loads of bad Karma or drop off a cliff to start at place zero or pretty low again. Or at least ones own experiences of the path up the mountain. and promises to do something like (Boddhisattva-Vow) that once one has woken up (better not starting before, because that tends - not necessarily, but tends - to be an ego-show. And not go off to the cave happily ever after.... and overall, at least be compassionate and nice to "other" beings while on the path, as much as possible. .... Ones own Intuition and Intelligence (which is governed by the Infinite Intelligence of Reality/Totality anyway (or do you choose which thoughts/concepts emerge in your mindstream? "I" don't...) is helped by the Totality in any way the Infinite Intelligence of Reality can? Since the Totality wants to wake up, or has a tendency to do so? That can take an intuition (or feeling drawn to) of choosing working paths/methods instead of not-working ones. That can result in nice and balanced success on the relative level of live (Friends, partner, job/business/financials) making the right decissions in life having luck in ones decissions a lot of energy and motivation in ones endevours (intellectual, business, financial, any aspect of an integrated life) As Nisargadatta once said "Winnnig the grace of ones True Nature" that is at least my experience. Coincidence or not, I am happy about how things are in my life. And for the postponing ones Enlightenment/Waking Up until saving them all: That is in large parts Buddhist folklore and myth. You can not really help others beings without being awake yourself, at least not to wake up fully. Its like in an airplane: If masks drop, put on your mask first before helping others put on their mask. Because if you don't, you can go unconsciousness (and the "other" too), before you can help anyone. Like every Religion for the masses, in which Buddhism also takes part, there are some nice background-story that are maybe a little bit to rosy and naive. This one probably belongs to it. Help yourself and wake up (put the mask on), then help others put the mask on. But be nice and benevolent to "others" while putting on the mask, don't kick them out of their seats on your way to the mask, so to say. Then, who in his right mind wouldn't choose to make such an agreement/"deal" (Boddhisattva Agreement) with Reality? And of course honestly and authentically, Infinite Intelligence already knows all of your mindstream, cause it IS that already. And Reality listens very openly to ones mindstreams, its intentions and prayers, and can respond miraculously to it (for example in the emotions is manifests in the mindstream: Loving or annoyed for example). Because the opening of ones mindstream and consciousness, its emptiness and its emergent thoughts, is already are direct link to the Universal Mind of the Universe and Infinite Consciousness already, by definition. There are not two "consciousnesses" anywhere..... It is literally the same. Of course its all a dream, an Infinite Universal Mind imagining a dream. But at least yours truly prefers a nice dream to a nightmare. So who in his right mind would say its all a dream, its all imagined, and ignore the laws of Karma (of which the Boddhisattva-vow forms a large part) and life a miserable life ignoring cause and effect ever after? Well, you guessed, only a confused ignorant separate self under the spell of illusion.... “My realization is higher than the sky. But my observance of karma is finer than grains of flour.", Padmasambhava That means nothing else than although one keeps the Absolute Perspective of its all an arising in Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality, one is not so stupid to think that this Lila/Dream has a very consequent structure, is very coherent (different than dreams at night), and if one shoots oneself in the knee (Karma-wise, or literally), one is going to be hurting/limping for the rest of ones life.... And knowing about the tendence of the Universe to grow towards more complexity and awakening, and ignoring that, or not taking some kind of Boddhisattva-vow (the wise/intelligent form of it), is similiar to shooting oneself in the knee, at least in a certain perspective. And a "round-out" from the Absolute Side of the Street, to keep it balanced ), courtesy of Francis Lucille - "Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance. From the perspective of [Absolute] Consciousness: Who cares?!". So either way, its show on! Bon voyage! Water by the River

Thank you for this voice of sanity. That is (at least in my humble perspective) a very sane and much needed truthful statement on a relative level. Hope you don't mind the following musings: Of course one can "shoot" at such a statement with a statement of the absolute level, like: That is all duality. But doing the "Absolute side of the street trick" to kill something coming from the "relative side of the street" because ones ego (or whatever) doesn't like it, one contradicts one self, because on the relative level there are truths and stuff that work (like diamond cuts glass, but not the other way round, and certain views tend to bring one closer to actually awakening to Absolute Truth, and other "truths" just lead to more self-contraction, ego and narcissm). Especially those views that don't boost self-importance and narcissm, because they tend to cause less blind-spots than humble views, and don't kill ones progress on the spiritual path. And: Any critique coming from the "Absolute Side of the street" is also necessarily using duality, or language. So for the folks that like to kill any statement they don't like or that rubs their ego (or whatever) the wrong way with a statement from the Absolute Side of the street (that is duality, its all imagined, whatever...., fill in the blanks), one might find this little concept helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction And of course Nagarjuna and the Two Truths: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine And if one still likes to use statements from the Absolute Side of the Street: Maybe you like to use something like written below [bold markings by yours truly]? At least in my humble view a very beautiful paragraph by Bassui. So, there is nothing really new under the sun, they discussed & solved this topic in India a loooooong time ago. Yet, here we are, still seeing battles in this forum with one side shooting with "Absolute Truth"-Statements on stuff that needs to be discussed on a relative level... Fasten your seatbelts, get popcorn ready, and enjoy the show Water by the River Bassui: If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none.

Yes. Nice that you write this post. Very true. >"Solipsism, yes. But from the point of view of God (which is not a point of view, obviously, but using that word as a means to understand ourselves). Not from the point of view of the ego [separate self]." Not from the point of view of the ego/separate self! And Solipsism from "the view" of the One without a second, or Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Suchness/Reality itself doesn't even really need to be mentioned. Because there literally is nothing else, like in "never could be". So it doesn't really make sense talking about it. To whom? "Others"? The consciousness of the mind-stream of other beings can be directly intuited/felt/realized to be ones own empty consciousness at certain levels of Awakening. But Impersonal, Totally Empty Concsiousness. It "wouldn't work" any different way, it has to be empty. Technically speaking, "IT" would not be compatible to fit into the perspective/mind-stream/consciousness of another being/perspective if it weren't totally empty. Just Awareness, AWARE, and nothing else. Empty. Impersonal. How could a consciousness with "my" personal properties "fit" into the mindstream of another being. It couldn't. Therefor, Nothingness, totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness, with another mindstream (feelings/thoughts/subtle feelings of being/separateness/....), structurally exactly the same as ones own mindstream, with the same essence - Nothingness. Which is also the same essence of very appearance of the visual field also. All of that can be directly realized. With certain levels of Awakening, one can directly intuit that the separate-self illusion arisings (I-thoughts, I-feelings) in the mindstream of other beings has exactly the same structure than ones own mindstream (and its I-thoughts, I-feelings). One doesn't read the content of thoughts (some do), but directly intuits their structure/process, in the exactly same impersonal consciousness than the essence of ones own mindstream. And that essence of Nothingness/Impersonal Consciousness is also the same essence of EVERY appearance of the world in the visual field. Also, a direct experience in Awakenings, and something that gets constant in Enlightenment (to paraphrase for example the Mahamudra-system): "Crossing Over to Enlightenment happens when every thought/concept/feeling ("internal" arising) and every appearance (world/visual field form) is seen as empty-thought-concept and empty-appearance arisings in Infinite Awareness-Space". And that is what one is: IMPERSONAL Empty Consciousness. Or better "Nothingness", to make sure that nothing is projected onto it, or that its not fully empty. It is literally Nothing, but with the capacity for sentience. And even that isn't always active, see Deep-Sleep. Definitely, it doesn't include separate-self arisings/confusion/illusion arisings "on top". That is "the screen", and its capacity for sentience/awareness/consciousness. To make it specific: Talking about Solipsism could only make sense from totally empty impersonal Consciousness or Nothingness. And then it is not necessary! (Because it invites more mis-understandings than the clarity it delivers). Talking about Solipsism from any ego/separate self perspective doesn't make sense. And if you are at that empty level of infinite (!) impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness, one without a second, it is redundant and totally unnecessary to talk even about Solipsism. >As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion Yes, exactly. And any form of Solipsism applied to the level of the delusion/relative/ego/separate-self level only can increase narcissm or (separate-)self-grandiosity, which is the No.1 building block of the separate self, the most seductive one, the most dangerous delusion mechanism of Maya. One of the very last things to go. (And then one can guess what makes Solipsism so attractive for egos/separate selfs? Well, one can go ahead confusing the little separate self/ego with the full glory of God/Kosmos/Reality, and feel veeeery important, and boast around with absolute claims.) That (the danger described above, and other dangers) is why by the way in Tibetan Buddhism (and practically all spiritual traditions) Realized Ones normally NEVER speak about their attainments, and at least tend to downplay them, state them smaller, because that tends to boost ones self-importance. And that is not good, neither before or after Enlightenment. Brings bad Karma, not as happy-as-can-be-life. And the same holds also for the not-realized or not stable realized ones. Not publicly announcing ones realization has got other negative effects (like not much examples, or making it appeat to be nearly impossible to reach), but saves oneself (and others) in being more on the "humble side") from the burden of self-importance/self-grandiosity. So its a balance, see one of my last posts with the Video of Ken Wilber. And second factor: Even if you know Absolute Reality and are enlightened, that does in no way mean that ones relative life automatically already expresses the potential that this realization opens up in terms of compassion, ethical living, and embodying the truth. It provides the potential to do so, and also tends to unfold this way. But it is not assured. Ken Wilbers "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up". Over the long-term, when Enlightenment becomes more common, only the "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up" stable and mature versions of it will find group-approval/consensus. Because only that version of it is "cool", the other versions are "less than cool", or "pretty uncool". And if with Solipsism one can boost the importance/self-importance/grandiosity to hilarious proportions, confusing ego/separate self with Reality/God, and claiming stuff that is just not appropriate to be claimed for any separate self/any perspective in the Great Net of Indra/Reality/any being, but only for God proper (Nothingness, Impersonal totally empty Infinite Consciousness), well, then one has exchanged the former separate self with a new vastly-blown-up"God"-ego-separate-self, an ego/separate self blown up to cosmic dimensions and self-importance. And then good luck transcending that, and the suffering that goes along necessarily as with any separate-self identity. The big big risk that at least yours truly can see on this forum: Exactly that tends (not at every case, depends probably on the baseline-"blessing"/Karma of narcissm and self-grandiosity already in place) to happen with frequent usage of Psychedelics. 95% of the properties of Infinite Reality get revealed (the relative side, like ones identity with the whole universe (this Infinite Void-Universe, Buddha-Field, or "God" if you are so inclinded to call it that way), but not the fully empty/impersonal Absolute side of it, Absolute Impersonal Emptiness or Nothingness/Abyss that can never be seen. (And by the way, as Steven Wolinsky for example writes based on his Awakenings/visions, there are and infinite Number of Infinite Other Void-Universes/Buddha-Fields just like ours, each with a God/Buddha at its center running the "show", while being it. And none of that is the Absolute, its all relative stuff, manifestation. Not the absolute empty Abyss of Nothingness.... I remember a video somebody once maid about an "Infinity of Gods", sovereign just like oneself.... "). At least not completely, because the Psychedelics don't kill the last remnants/rest of the last subtle separate-self arisings (mainly "Individuality", or a very subtle hard to spot feeling of still being there as anything at all, or an Awareness "of" Emptiness/Nothingness/Nonduality/whatever. Still an Awarness "of"...). And, to make it even more seductive or dangerous: One is not aware what this last "individuality", or "Awareness of ..." is, or that that is still happy and busy and active, destroying ones crossing over to Complete Realization, making one still suffer. If one would understand these last remnancts of Illusion, of "Individuality", one would instantly wake up and stay that way. Knowing what one really is. If Realization of ones Identity with the Absolute Infinite Reality/Nothingness ends after the trip, maybe there was still something active blocking the full Realization throughout? Little remark, included after a waaay to long rambling: If somebody has truly read until here, and thinks all of this post is all BS, please quote the number 147, to show that one has actually read most of that dry and boring musings of yours truly until here... ( : . Thank you, very kind. Well, nothing of what I have written will proove anything for those persons having fallen heavily for that trap. especially those who do it just by thinking and watching videos, and boosting their narcissm already with that tremendously, and didn't even walk the Psychedelic path properly, but are parotting concepts & dogma from someone else. In my humble opinion, it doesn't speak for the forum that such an ego-show can happen without more highlighting these obvious mistakes. So for the "all is understood by watching the vids, but never did a trip"-fraction: Maybe consider taking one of the harder psychedelics like 5-MeO, have most/95%+ of your ego/separate self handed on a platter to you, and then come back with maybe a little bit more existential humility and awe in the face of Infinite Consciousness/Reality, and the way it can easily kill 95% of you with a little chemical and smile while doing so. Luckily, normally their tone of writing, loaded with self-grandiosity, narcissm, and writing style that generally is not "so filled" with bliss/love/compassion as one would normally expect of Divinity/Absolute/God-Realization, showing for every reader with at least some form of working spiritual compass in the heart, that their suffering probably has not ended, and they are peddling conceptual ideas and not actual realization. and if they "camouflage" their writings a bit more towards the "humble and loving/compassion side", at least it gets more pleasant and softer to read And as always, Bon Vovage for "everybody"! Selling Water by the River

... and its the old conflict between sudden and gradual awakening. That conflict happened in every spiritual system, for example very famous in Zen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism So it is probably not the newest show in town.... Well, I prefer the integral solution of "nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time", so both perspectives hold a certain degree of truth. Which can then be integrated. Selling Water by the River

I also understand the reaction of Breakingthewall here. @Inliytened1 and Breakingthewall: How about both perspectives are important: (1) The steps (or awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments (not the Final Basis Enlightenments) or temporary openings to the real state of things, whatever you want to call them) to Absolute Reality/Ones True being are important, since they are aligning the individual mindstream more with the enlightenened mindstream, increasing its potential to finally wake up fully. That is still happening in the dream, but the dream can be more or less lucid. But these experiences are very important. So maybe something like "waking up fully" is sudden, its either or, its an "accident", but previous "awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments" make accident-prone. Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment/Final Enlightenment/Fully Waking Up: The full waking up is then a sudden, unmistaken waking up to the True Reality of both oneself and Reality, nondual. The description of the Tibetan Mahamudra System, and Basis Enlightenment, describes exactly that: (1) "Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash [small "awakenings/enlightenments or whatever one wants to call it" but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience." (2) Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event [sudden, awake or not], wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations At least from my perspective it doesn't look so complicated to align the different statements/wordings/descriptions/experiences/views concepts into a picture that can contain them all, that is spacious enough in an integral way to make room for all experiences and perspectives in a coherent picture. Water by the River

Actually, on my bucket list is offering courses in “1984” doublethink, Steven Norquist style: http://www.hauntedpress.net/What_is_Enlightenment.html "You basically have to employ a little Orwellian “1984” doublethink. You have to pretend to believe, while always knowing the truth." Or how to improve ones imaginary Karma while Selling Water by the River No, just kidding . Gotta stay humble.... Selling Water by the River PS: And the coolest answer to the next question: Are you enlightened, Sir !? Ken Wilbers answer: Enlightened enough.... " In Zen are you enlightened what was always taken as a trick because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't if you say yes then you clearly... no individual is enlightened . but if you say no then you're just an ignoramus, you're an idiot" "almost all I can say is enlightened enough if you say more than that you're just a braggart and almost certainly wrong and if you say less than that then you're worthless you know and you're also not telling the truth"

Ah, you know, too busy Selling Water by the River for doing that... Water by the River

Hi Josemar, Please excuse me not commenting on having done (in my country) illegal psychedelics in a public forum. But others have and publicly declared that, and are "quoteable", see below. But what I can tell you that certain states, that can also be reached via meditation and that are extremely similiar to the 5 MeO experience, lead to states that are totally nondual infinite space and time have gone the identity left is NOTHING, really a empty nothing, a transparent witness without any properties. BUT with a very very subtle Individuality still left. And that is the problem. So, the last frontier, which is extremely(!) subtle, is still there: Individuality, the last remnants of a nearly invisible transparant witness/separate self. Roger Thisdells stage 4, Not Self: That is the stage where one works with the last remnants of a very very empty remaining separate-self. Impossible to describe in words. The last remnants of Individuality/Separate Self. This is what "Nonmeditation Yoga" of the Mahamudra System is cleaning up with, preparing for the Big Sudden Shift. After watching the video, watch his next video 5 of the series, True No Self. There is also a beautiful passage in Ken Wilbers "The Religion of Tomorrow: A Vision For The Future of the Great Traditions" on the transparent witness. Transparent Witness is a word not so perfectly fitting, because it can be already quite nondual. >Because from your description "not fully empty" doesn't resonate here. There isn't a separate self to be empty or not, it's only on the comedown when the separate self reassembles that the non-experience is re-contextualized into whatever the separate self deems worthy or valuable. I understand when you write "doesn't resonate here". It feels like you were totally rid of the separate self during 5 MeO. You can have a similiar feelings/impressions on the meditation path, see Roger Thisdells video and Frank Yang. But it is not fully gone. And one CAN NOT imagine what is still there. Why it is not fully empty. Because IT IS the lense/separate self/transparent witness (although already nondual) that one is still looking out from. And I will never be able to proove that to you, or describe what still remains. That is why Basis/Great/Final Enlightenment is sudden, as described before. If one would understand what hinders the Great Enlightenment before it actually happening, it would happen immediately. I can not proove that to you. But the fact that it goes away after the trip IS a very strong indication that not every aspect of the separate self was gone during the trip, because the Deep Identity Level Shift of Great Enlightenment DID NOT OCCUR. When you know what you are, you know what you are. Awake or not. There is a long "tradition" for example in Zen in differentiating between Enlightenment and Great Enlightenment. In other traditions also. In the firstly mentioned Enlightenment, one fully knows the nondual void/empty/mere appearance nature of the visual field, and that oneself is empty. But Bassui says for example: WHO is perceiving all of that. The Empty Void/Space can not perceive it. And Bassui says: "At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization, but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present." "Again, there are those who think that when one’s mental functions have ceased, leaving one like a decayed tree or cold stone, one has attained no-mindness; while still others maintain that in the practice of Zen a decisive point has been reached when one feels a deep void with awareness of neither inner nor outer, the entire body having become shining, transparent, and clear like a blue sky on a bright day. This last appears when the True-nature begins to manifest itself, but it cannot be called genuine Self-realization. Zen masters of old would call it the “deep pit of pseudo-emancipation.” " Andeven though all of you becomes one mass of questioning as you turn inward and intently search the very core of your being, you will find nothing that can be termed Mind or Essence. Yet should someone call your name, something from within will hear and respond. Find out this instant who it is! If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear [or any and all wrong identity/separate self structures/arisings get killed/transcended by ones True Being, Nothingness, the "ever-burning flame of your own primoridal nature". Deep complete Identity Level Shift, dropping the mistaken Identity of anything separate, however subtle, once and for all]. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." The same thing that happens on the meditation path happens also on the psychedelic path. So luckily, there is a gentlemen who publicly comments on having done both: Frank Yang comments on the difference between 5 MeO (and what still remains in that), and what can be achieved by meditation. "so when i tried 5meo DMT (God Molecule) three years ago that was the last time i tried it DJing the whole universe i had a breakthrough of Absolute Infinity slash Emptiness slash _______ you can't describe it. three years later that state is right here right now when i perceive the world it's a 360 degrees boundless infinite hologram perceiving itself through One Sense Door there's not even a sense door "God's 0 Sense Door" and every single sensation both inside and outside there's no inside outside syncs up to (and is aware of) itself and it's been like that it's locked in for three months now nothing has changed nothing this is a state that isn't affected by any ..." And on getting rid of the last lenses/filters of the separate self, very subtle: " or imagine what this would be like and even if you take psychedelics when you're at 99 percent you're not going to get a glimpse of the full thing because you're gonna have an experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it permanently through the natural mind okay experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it permanently through the natural mind okay that's not even go to the people who are only maybe 1 percent or not even that, not even Stream Entry taking psychedelics and had a glimpse of god consciousness. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! Because enlightenment is not an experience that comes and goes that's why Jed Mckenna said you're either awake or you're not. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! That would also be my main point. Awake or not, to use the nice statement/metaphor from Inliytened1. To end with a personal oberservation: I know quite some contemporary people which are enlightened via mainly meditation. I know not single case of the pure or even mainly psychedelic path, where I would conclude that that case in enlightened. That doesn't mean it could not happen. Just that I am not aware of one. That also tells something about the likely statistics. I know . But some will resonate with it, and will read it. All I am doing is writing here because I enjoy it, and because the archive of posts generated would have been (at least for me) very valueable and useful some years ago... Selling Water by the River

Agree, important point. Since I am quoting already a lot today, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment, and quoting some passages from "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown" again. Maybe that is interesting for some.... Bold markings and [...] by yours truly. THE OUTCOME: THE NATURE OF ENLIGHTENMENT Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event, wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations. One implication of the term nonmeditation is that the "journey ends." There are no more stages. Pema Karpo says,The journey ends. Going by stages stops. There are no stages that go anywhere else. You find the perfection of everything that came before, without stages. (PK, f. rib) There are no stages (sa med) beyond this point ... a. Basis Enlightenment The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away. Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20). Tilopa says: When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha. The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space. Basis enlightenment leads to a very "new view of the way the realized mind stays" (TN, p. 5 17). When the concept of individual consciousness or "mind" is finally eradicated, a profound rearrangement takes place. Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience. Therefore the first moment of enlightenment is called basis enlightenment. During the ordinary special-insight meditations the practitioner searched for certain knowledge within arising events of the ordinary mental continuum. During the extraordinary samadhi meditations the practitioner located the simultaneous mind as the source of certain knowledge. Now, with basis enlightenment, knowledge takes on a new epistemological locus of knowledge. Awakened wisdom comes forth but not in association with either the ordinary or the simultaneous mind. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness]has no basis. It is without coming Ong med) and without going ('song med), in that it does not arise from the seeming activity of the relative mental continuum. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] is self-originated (rang 'byung). It is simply there, and with basis enlightenment, stays there. Basis enlightenment is called, "wisdom beyond the world" (TN, p. 542)." So also according to Mahamudra/Tibetan Buddhism, the Deep Identity Level Shift of Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment is sudden (contrary to the slowly ripening of Awakened Awareness before), self-evident, and there is no stage beyond it. Awake or not. Other Traditions call the shifts that happen before that event "Awakenings", some even Enlightenments. But qualified Enlightenments, "smaller" Enlightenments, partial gradual "awakenings" refining the mindstream to make it conform to the Big Shift, awake or not. Its a question of choosing the words. But they tend to differentiate clearly between the final thing/Great Enlightenment/Waking Up, and the events before. I agree with Inliytened1 that if we call this Great Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment/ Waking Up, that one is either awake or not. Digital, either or. Before being awake, one can maybe postulate there are gradual changes/"Awakenings", preparing for the final big shift (called crossing over to Enlightenment, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra). Or waking up, like in awake or not. If one knows or has realized what one truly deeply is, one knows what one is, and also what everything else is and only can ever be. Awake or not. If one is not sure, one is still asleep/dreaming. Awakening n+1 ain't it.... Selling Water by the River

Normal full-time business career, married but no kids, and a hobby also... I was a bookworm for a long time, reading hundreds of books, with a focus on meditation/spiritual systems. I wanted to find the most efficient ones there are. Considering what that brought into my life, I wasn't too unlucky doing that. It all can be done, though honestly I wouldn't be where I am at without the book that i shamelessly promote, "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown". You know, Selling Water by the River, and especially that book... . And other books from Mahamudra/Dzogchen also. It is a very efficient system, with limited need for sitting meditation if done correctly. I used and still use most of the day off the pillow for meditation/mindfulness practice, or just staying in my True Being. If no absolutely distracting mental work is necessary, one can use pretty much all day, even meetings and standard work to stay mindful in the sense of " Simultaneous Mind (nondual, 3. stage of Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste)" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind" (switching off the separate self, 4. stage of Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). That brings the momentum/time/hours in meditation that probably most of us need. To be honest, I had to read the book a lot of times (at least stages 1-4 Mahamudra, Skill of Reckongition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste, Nonmeditation Yoga). At one point, I had to wait several years to understand the Yoga of Unelaboration, which is really hard to understand. A cycle of read, try, read again, understand a bit more, read again, even more, meditate, get certain states, read again, misunderstand, read again, understand, and so on.... But with progress and increasing meditation experience one can get what is described, and "go upwards in circles" of meditation experience -> understanding/realization -> reading more, understanding more of the system -> meditation exerpience -> understanding/realization and so on, n+1. Yes. In essence, one gets love from others, and self-esteem (aka validation with concepts), and safety/security. Sure, at a certain stage of development one could go into the desert when the flow of love/bliss from ones True Core is fully on (It is a nice indicator to check how transcended the separate self really is). But to live a healthy and integrated life, why not take the love, validation of self-esteem from "others" on top? It also provides a good calibration to live a healthy, integrated and balanced relative life in society. Doing the desert thing at some point is rather easy... Business Meetings is where the challenge is , Death by a-bit-less-intelligent-than-can-be-Powerpoint-presentations and meetings and so on... Still working on that, and, admittingly, having fun while doing so... Even the more or less Awake Ones live a more healthy and integrated life when integrating in a healthy way in society, or at least trying to. One can do the Ramana-thing of walking off into the wildness and forget eating a little bit. But why should one do it? If one has taken at least a little bit of compassion training/Boddhisattva-vow/whatever, one probably feels better living an integrated and wholesome life in society. Selling Water by the River