Water by the River

For Leos Awakenings or Realizations, please ask himself. My personal opinion and perspective (and nothing more than that) on concepts like Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is stated here: And my recommendation would be, similiar to something like Bassui said: Not too much theory. After reading the "letter", throw it in the fire, and practice. Please see here: Selling Water by the River

Ken Wilber, One Taste: "Monday, March 24. With the awakening of constant consciousness, you becomesomething of a divine schizophrenic, in the popular sense of “split-minded,” because you have access to both the Witnessand the ego. You are actually “whole-minded,” but it sounds like it’s split, because you are aware of the constant Witness or Spirit in you, and you are also perfectly aware of themovie of life, the ego and all its ups and downs. So you still feel pain and suffering and sorrow, but they can no longer convince you of their importance—you are no longer the victim of life, but its Witness. In fact, because you are no longer afraid of your feelings,you can engage them with much greater intensity. The movie of life becomes more vivid and vibrant, precisely because you are no longer grasping or avoiding it, and thus no longer trying to dull or dilute it. You no longer turn the volume down. You might even cry harder, laugh louder, jump higher. Choiceless awareness doesn’t mean you cease to feel; it means you feel fully, feel deeply, feel to infinity itself, and laugh and cry and love until it hurts. Life jumps right off the screen, and you are one with all of it, because you don’t recoil. If you are having a dream, and you think it’s real, it can get very scary. Say you are dreaming that you are tightropewalking across Niagara Falls. If you fall off, you plunge to your death. So you are walking very slowly, very carefully.Then suppose you start lucid dreaming, and you realize that it’s just a dream. What do you do? Become more cautious and careful? No, you start jumping up and down on the tightrope, you do flips, you bounce around, you have a ball—precisely because you know it isn’t real. When you realize it’s a dream, you can afford to play. The same thing happens when you realize that ordinary life is just a dream, just a movie, just a play. You don’t become more cautious, more timid, more reserved. You start jumping up and down and doing flips, precisely because it’sall a dream, it’s all pure Emptiness. You don’t feel less, you feel more—because you can afford to. You are no longer afraid of dying, and therefore you are not afraid of living.You become radical and wild, intense and vivid, shocking and silly. You let it all come pouring through, because it’s all your dream. Life then assumes its true intensity, its vivid luminosity, itsradical effervescence. Pain is more painful and happiness is happier; joy is more joyous and sorrow is even sadder. It all comes radiantly alive to the mirror-mind, the mind that doesn’t grasp or avoid, but simply witnesses the play, and therefore can afford to play, even as it watches. What would motivate you if you saw everything as the dream of your own highest Self? What would actually move you in this playful dream world? Everything in the dream is basically fun, at some deep level, except for this: when you see your friends suffering because they think the dream is real, you want to relieve their suffering, you want them to wake up, too. Watching them suffer is not fun. And so a deep and powerful compassion arises in the heart of the awakened ones, and they seek, above all else, to awaken others—and thus relieve them from the sorrow and the pity,the torment and the pain, the terror and the anguish that comes from taking with dreadful seriousness the passing dream of life. So you are a divine schizophrenic, you are “split-minded” in the sense that you are simultaneously in touch with both the pure Witness and the world of the ego-film. But that really means you are actually “whole-minded,” because these two worlds are really not-two. The ego is just the dream of the Witness, the film that the Witness creates out of its own infinite plenitude, simply so it will have something to watch at the movies. At that point the entire play arises within your own constant consciousness. There is no inside and no outside, no in here versus out there. The nondual universe of One Taste arises as a spontaneous gesture of your own true nature. You can taste the sun and swallow the moon, and centuries fit in the palm of your hand. The pure I-I, the greatI AMness, breathes to infinity and creates a Kosmos as the Song of its very Self, and oceans of compassion fall as tears from your very own Original Face. Last night I saw the reflection of the moon in a cool clear crystal pond, and nothing else happened." Selling Water by the River

I mean the ripening phase of for example Yoga of One Taste nor Nonmeditation-Yoga with resting in Ones True Being. It is not fully clear at that phase. After crossing over/waking up/Basis Enlightenment it is. I didn't write clearly in this paragraph you quoted. The speciality of Mahamudra in general, and Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation especially, is pointing out as much as possible from ones True Nature at each stage, and bringing forth the benefit of resting/training in these states. And going from meditation state induction to realization/understanding to further meditation state experience to realization, and so on. Like in a upwards-going spiral. Selling Water by the River

Yes. Don't know Angelo Dulio (but Ingram and Yangs descriptions). Full Enlightenment has the same deep structure always. Only one Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind. Without a second. But the way & style being talked about it later varies from perspective to perspective. And to be more precise: The ego (as technical term) or character continues doing its thing. The separate-self-arisings/elements gets understood/seen in real time (and in all its aspect) as illusions moving in oneself, and are transcended and normally cut off (Trekchö) as Illusion. Unnecessary. Awakaned Awareness takes over, and lives ones life much more efficient than the old biased separate-self ever could. Waaay more pleasant. "One" just gets out of the way. Like a lense of perception, normally with some kind of location/center, with I-feelings and I-thoughts. That drops. What remains is an Understanding/Realization of that which can never not be there, Reality itself. That is Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all appearance, including the visual field, is that. That Nothingness is infinite, since any boundary to anything else would be form, an imagined arising. and while there are Infinite Perspectives in Indras Net, non-dimensionally "hovering" or being manifested/imagined in Nothingness (out of which you normally forget all but "your" perspective (and call that your life), the Awareness of all of these perspectives can ever only be that Infinite Nothingness, which is also the essence/Suchness of every appearance. Deep Structures of the process towards Enlightenment. To get there, you need at least the following Awakenings (discrete "hard" STATES, induced by meditation, psychedelic, karma, ..., that one can not jump with just conceptual thinking/videos/whatever. That ends with one form of Solipsism or another, a cul-de-sac) the ego-mind becoming a fully transparent witness (Mahamudra. Yoga 1 & 2): Death/Transcendence of the ego/person. Outcome Transparent Witness. Not yet death/Transcendence of the Indviduality/last subtle separate selves. Nonduality with the visual field (Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3). Induced and boosted by the step above. the visual field becoming boundless/infinite (further ripening of One Taste Yoga): Infinite the Awakening that Consciousness is Nothingness, nothing that can ever be pointed to, and the Awakening that each and every appearance of the visual field IS Nothingness, its essence is Nothingness (further ripening of One Taste Yoga). Generalizing this awakening/understanding to any possible manifestation. the Awakening to this boundless infinite visual field/Consciousness being also timeless, eternal, never-not-here. Deathless alway-here-Mind. the "you" becoming nothing at all, no center, no lense, no feeling, no thought. Or all of that moving through you like the wind: Mahamudra, Yoga of Nonmeditation, stage 4. The visual field remains, but without you. Impersonal. That is a ripening process of Impersonality (similiar to the ripening of Nonduality in the Yoga of One Taste), which ends suddenly with waking up, or Full Enlightenment, crossing over to the Dharmakaya or whatever lingo floats ones boat. That is Full Enlightenment. Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. Fully Waking up to ones True Identity. The Awakenings of Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3, are already called Enlightenments, for example in Zen. That is a much more common Enlightenment than the real one, Basis Enlightenment. That is why for example Leo emphasizes in God Realization that True You/Reality/"God" (I am reluctant to use that word, not because it is technically incorrect, but because it can lead to a lot of Separate-Self-Boosting) imagines everything. That becomes fully clear with Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment, realizing the full identity of oneself and Reality. Infinite Nothingness manifesting/imagining the whole gig. Like in couldn't be different, nowhere and in no dimension/time/anything. Can't be. That was a longer musing than I expected. These are the Deep Structures of the process of Enlightenment. that I have found in ANY Enlightenment-Path-Description. (like in: a few hundreds of books later. You know, nutcase...). You can have that and do that with cessations and a concentrative meditation path, or Dzogchen/Mahamudra. One doesn't need cessations, as Ingram and Yang confirm. Both (and also Wilber) changed later to include Mahamudra/Dzogchen elements. That gave at least yours truly something to think about. Good book for Mahamudra: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. Many posts of yours truly on that also... And one little warning: Without the corresponding Awakening states, one will a) not understand (or get) Nonduality or Union with the (infinite) visual field by just conceptual description (for example of the one of yours truly above). No chance. But you can recognize when that starts to happen when you know the map of the path. You can know how to induce that with practice, and how to make out of a spark a forest fire b) not understand the full Impersonal nature of ones true being (Nothingness), the death and transcendence of the separate self. That is impossible before it fully happens. But one can get at least an idea when the ripening of that happens. When it fully happens, its clear. Unmistakenably so. Waking Up. So the "game"/path is to induce these states, via for example the practices described above. And then there is a cycle of meditation state->realization/understanding->boosting more meditation state (because it got more impersonal) -> more realization/understanding n+1. "Thinking" ones way to Oneness/God/ItsallIMAGINED and itSAULGOODMAN doesn't work, only leads to Ego/Separate-Self-Solipsism. The 5 aggregate frame is from the earliest phases of Buddhism. Buddhism tended to end at (and emphasize) causal states back in the day (like Nirvana/Cessation/Nothingness as state). That mostly got replaced (transcended and in included) with superior realizations later, Nondual in Ken Wilbers language (Nagarjuna, Madhyamaka). That basically means not loosing ones Identity as Nothingness being the whole Infinite Field (and the essence of that being Nothingness, not metaphorically but literally, as direct experience) as Nothingness. A nice statement from that stage is: - We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.- Kalu Rinpoche. That is a statement one doesn't normally here from the early Buddhism phases. There is only one Nothingness, but the states can be a bit different on however the Nothingness is approached. However one defines Cessation, Nirvana, Nirvikalpha, nirodha samapatti, its all in the class of Causal State experiences of Ken Wilber. Causal in the meaning of Source, Nothingness. Nice article on nirodha samapatti https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28 Yours truly would recommend forgetting the concept of Mahasamadhi. Cultural Baggage. Why should that happen? So much effort for the whole imagined/manifested show, and then its game over when one understand what one is? Doesn't happen in practice, and why should it? For the first time, one can play and celebrate manifestation without the fear and lack and cycle of suffering. That is the True Nondual Realization. It is not the scarcity and quite negative perspective of escaping suffering and reaching Nirvana that early Buddhism/Hinayana had. It is the full celebration of manifestation, full with Agape, and if done in an integral way and with intelligence just a beautiful dream. See Francis Lucille for example. He calls it life is a celebration then. It is. He has a very sane perspective on all of that. And please feel invited to review my archieve of posts for more details because yours truly is God, marvels all day at his own perfection, of course has madly fallen in LOVE with himself, and nobody else is awake, you are all dreaming, and only God can describe himself in the best way of all Multiverses possible since there are no others, and everbody else is wrong because or biased and so on and so on (put in the Solipsistic Ramblings of your preference n+1), and its all imagined anyway!!! Sorry, just kidding of course. If you like that channel, just ask and you will helped by various proponents of Absolute Solipsism and other funny concepts Selling Water by the River PS: Very necessary, after all this conceptual overkill of yours truly: Bassui: After having read the letter, drop it into the fire Much more true than all the stuff written above: “frog pond plop” Basho

That exactly how it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction Ken Wilbers take on that is that it takes stage yellow cognition (integral thinking, Vision logic, Piaget post-formal cognition/logic) to fully get that, and to spot when one does it. And stop doing it. Stage green cognition (relative thinking, not yet post-formal cognition) tends to have a hard time with that. But has the potential to make a great show Selling Water by the River PS: And even Emptiness is empty. Best is to be in the right nondual enlightened fully empty state and say “frog pond plop” (Batso). Not like the way of the way too loooong ramblings of yours truly

Some musings on Nothing/Causal-States of Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, their benefits, vs. Nondual Realization/Enlightenment in daily life: A state of Nothing (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha,...) is not the Absolute, it is a state happening in Nothingness/ Absolute/ Infinite/ Reality. Absolute Reality by definition is always there, never not there, can't go anywhere else (since IT is infinite). Nondual Realization/Enlightenment: And if one can keep ones True Identity as Nothingness BEING the essence of Everything (the visual field, and the Infinite Nothingness in which it "floats") going in daily life (as , and see "IT" as the Essence/Nothingness/Suchness of every arising of the Visual Field/Infinite Consciousness), then you will have the infinite and unconditional bliss/love flowing. That comes with the package. Or what would in the end finally switch off the separate self and its grasping for blissful-experiences finally, it not bliss without condition/cause? "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". Kalu Rinpoche Historically, Buddhism tended to first master (Hinayana, today the surviving Theravada-forms) the Concentrative-Meditation Nothing-states (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, Nirvana), until later guys like Nagarjuna reached and described the ongoing nondual Realization of Nothingness as the ESSENCE not only of (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, Nirvana), but of the world/visual field/any manifestation. Madhyamaka came out of that, and the Nondual revolution of Mahayana. It is easier to get these Nothing-states via Hardcore-Concentrative-Meditation than ongoing Nondual Realization in daily life. Because for that, all separate self arisings must be transcended WHILE they arise in daily. For (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, Nirvana) it is enough to switch them off via concentrative meditation on the pillow. So a more brute-force-concentrative approach. Many Theravada-Paths aim for Cessation. The material from Ingram and Frank Yang clearly describe that when the "cycling" through states of Cessation starts, that this is useful to understand the separate self when it reassembles going out of Cessation. But both later added some techniques similiar to Mahamudra/Dzogchen because that makes it much more efficient. Both state that cessation and its path is optional, not necessary. There are cases who don't go through cessations. But these tend to take Awareness into the Sleep-State (lucid dream, or not fully blanking out when passing deep sleep. See Roger Thisdells descriptions of that for example). Mahamudra/Dzogchen directly aims for Nondual Realization in daily life, but also use concentration states on the pillow. But not exclusively, and more as a starting point. They have excellent techniques to make the everpresent Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness in daily life perceivable and "hold-able", and to transcend the separate-self-clouds blocking the realization that Nothingness/Reality always already is right here, right now. Buuut the big advantage of Nothing (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha,...) : You see what can be gone (all and everything) and the Absolute/Infinite is still "there", as in Reality/Absolute Reality never can not be there. So one doesn't tend to confuse the Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Potential with any kind of specific form, or perceiver/subject/separate self. IT makes sure that after a lot of experiences of going in and especially coming out of that state of Cessation/Nothing (and the subject/separate self/indviduality, together with the world, reassembles itself), is that one doesn't confuse Ones True Essence (Nothingness) with any form, howerever subtle or formless. Yes, and there are also formless states that are still form or manifestation (not the Nothing/Cessation, since they change AND have some subtle form. Something like a formless object like i, the square root of minus 1. Ever seen it? Ever can imagine it? Yes, as formless concept. Or in Wilbers System, low subtle/high subtle and low causal. High Causal in Wilbers System is the Abyss, Nothingness, Cessation. Beyond, the True Nondual opens up in daily life: Once the separate self is fully killed/transcended touching the Nothing/Nothingness/Cessation, one becomes empty enough to sustain the infinite mere appearance nondual states in daily life without any clouding/separate self/individuality covering/clouding or disfiguring IT. And the subtle essence of individuality/separate self is still a subtle formless arising/feeling/lense of perception. And if one hasn't fully seen through that/transcended it /sees it moving within oneself fully&fast enough, one can not see/perceive that Nothingness is the essence of everything. The visual field really "changes heart", appearances "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness, their essence Nothingness itself. Yes to all of that. But it helps being without attachment/craving to rest in ones True Being, however one wants to call it, God or Nothingness or Infinite Reality, Universal Mind, whatever. And more in my language/use of terms, God/Infinite Reality/Nothingness is indeed manifesting/imagining attachment and craving within itself. God/Infinite Reality/Nothingness can manifest/imagine Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha in one of its Infinite Perspectives. Or better: switch every other imagination/manifestation just off. Making for this being/human/perspective more clear what is always there, and how the separate self re-assembles when going "out" of Nothingness/Cessation and form and subject of the object arises again. And of course Buddhism is a dream. Like everything else, and any other teaching. By definition. But a good/efficient dream if well done, using the right teachings from it (out of a sea of stuff that apparently doesn't work, since 99%+ of Buddhists are not enlightened), can get one to realize ones true essence. Unefficient dreams/teachings don't. Like a map with the drawing/description of the mountain, but no path drawn on it to get up to the peak. "Buddhism is a dream. God is not." Of course. Infinite Reality/Absolute/God/Universal Mind is always there, never can not be there. IT is dreaming the dream in itself, but IT not a dream. Selling Water by the River PS: If you are bored to death by all these concepts of yours truly, get a good laugh and look up Bazooka Jesus last Fanclub-video-post.

Your extended Fanclub just took a walk in nature! Love your humor btw. When Self-Irony and humor is lost, certain (self-) transcendence is lost. Metaphorically and literally. Water by the River

Free will or determinism: It is one of the paradoxes that can not be solved on the level of separate self, only in Enlightenment. Then it is no longer paradoxical. When not understanding and still believing the illusion of a separate self, zero freedom. When realizing what one really is, Universal Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness: Total freedom. There is no other game in town.... But there won't be a "you" left that is separate from the Totality. Practically speaking: Investing time in this question while not knowing what one really is is pointless. It is absolutely pointless. It is a question based on a wrong assumption: That the separate self exists as more than just an illusion. The rope mistaken for a snake. Better investing time in finding out what one really is. Selling Water by the River

Lovely. Thanks Water by the River

Well, this "I-Am-God" show serves at least as a very practical example for everyone seeing/reading it to where that path leads. . Which emotions and peace/bliss/compassion/gentleness (or more of the opposite of these states) it brings for the main actor. What that path delivers. And how its structure works, whats driving the main actor. What the main actor actually needs and partially gets from the gig. And for how long. And most amazing of all: Why that path, while proclaiming there are no others, needs others very much. That others are its "raison d'etre". Saving "others", helping "others", teaching "others", getting "others" to awaken, and so on and so on. Not Selling Water at the River (with a smile for doing so aware of the paradoxical nature of the whole gig, and letting the show run on autopilot), but very actively "Selling Water in the Desert" and promoting it for the poor, lost, dying, helpless and thirsting "others". Luckily, one doesn't need sophisticated transpersonal psychology or the like to read that phenomena. The phenomena of boosting ones ego/separate self doing this gig is so common that it has been well researched, structured and defined. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex "A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct.[1] Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society, and may request special consideration or privileges.[1]" God complex is not a clinical term nor diagnosable disorder and does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The recognized diagnostic name for the behaviors associated with a god complex is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). A god complex may also be associated with mania or a superiority complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_complex However, the symptoms as a proposed disorder closely resemble those found in individuals with delusions of grandeur or with grandiose self-images that veer towards the delusional.[4] An account specifically identified it as a category of religious delusion, which pertains to strong fixed beliefs that cause distress or disability. It is the type of religious delusion that is classified as grandiose while the other two categories are: persecutory and belittlement In terms of the attitude wherein an individual sees themselves as having to save another or a group of poor people, there is the notion that the action inflates their own sense of importance and discounts the skills and abilities of the people they are helping to improve their own lives.[7] As you write, even comparisons with Jesus are performed without even any trace of self-irony. So nothing new under the sun.... The merciful thing is: If the show would be done really smart, cool and in style, the fallout and damage done to those listening could be much bigger. Somebody would/will do the "I-Am-God" show anyways, so its probably better that not the Einsteins of this world are doing it. Although I know at least one very smart cookie having having delivered a great performance of that kind of show, with even lots of useful stuff included . And the copycats have apparently been quite impressed & inspired about it. The smart cookie still has lots of potential, smartness and knows the concepts of self-reflection, bias and openness very well. So its quite likely at some point we could and probably will see even the copy-cats wising up following the lead & some new innovations of the smart cookie.. So, Bon Voyage to every-"one", and enjoy the show! Selling Water by the River PS: Bassui: After reading this letter/post, throw it in the fire.

I had to watch the videos from Roger Thisdell several times to get his style of definitions and explaining. Like with most deep stuff that is really good. It is nice to understand several different systems/approaches/path descriptions, makes a more integral approach. I like to see who explained which stages/topics best, and integrate that. I had to read for example Pointing Out the Great Way (at least the important chapters) I guess over 10 times over a period of 10 years+. Every cycle doing that, with more meditation experience, I understood more. One can not do a deep dive on everything, that is why a certain intuition of what is really good/deep/wise/true can be really helpful. Selling Water by the River

So true. A good path can drop one at the doopstep of the Absolute. But there, all concepts fail, all duality must come to an an end, and the last separate self subjectivity/individuality must be seen moving in oneself/transcended and cut off/dropped/died. Only then will ones True Being reveal itself. That is the essence of Mahamudra Nonmeditation Yoga for example. And one throws the stick into the fire when one is there, not before. So good concepts (the stick one later throws into the fire) get one to the doorstep of the Absolute, and for that one must already by very very empty. Neti Neti. A concept like Solipsism is not at all useful for doing that, despite certain partial truths hold valid ONCE having realized the Absolute. But then one doesn't need to talk about. Because there are no others... And one doesn't want to blow up the separate-self-image/narcicissm of "other" perspective that still have the Illusion-separate-self-ego well and alive appearing in their mindstreams with concepts like Solipsism, which just are not true on the level of a ego/separate self still well and alive. Solipsism is a path that leads nowhere, promises things it can't hold, and leads in circles. While Maya lovingly smiles at oneself, enjoying the show, and tells one how much she loves one and how oh so great one is. Neti Neti delivers, and that is why each and every meditation system and spiritual traditions goes that road. Not one system goes the conceptual Solipsism road. Either all that came before must have been iditos (Remember Ken Wilbers: Nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time), or there is a deep deep truth to the Neti Neti approach, since Humanity has used it ever since. And if one wants to go a certain part of the Solipsism road on ones path, how about doing it with style: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche Selling Water by the River

Just wanted to see if I can communicate something with just copy&past and rearranging the order a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-reflection#:~:text=Self-reflection is the ability,the work of William James. Yours truly Wazer by the River

Just personal preference, no truth anywhere.... No difference between anything. all Ego.

Did you already watch Roger Thisdells Videos 4 and 5? If possible and time permits also video 3. I think you will like them. Speaking with the words of Nisargadatta: You have won the grace of your True Nature. Just follow the grace... "but the experience continues to occur, so there is still "something" and it seems always will be": Sure, the visual field and the character will continue doing their thing. Water by the River

Love your profile pic btw. Water by the River

So, lets go through it. Number of Pictures 1 5 9 2 6 10 3 7 11 4 8 12 1: Identity with THAT (That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1). Roger Thisdell stage 1: 2: Wiping/Process of Transcending the Identity with any self-concept (Body-Mind. Ego. World. God. Whatever. n+1) 3: I AM (identity with being, but nothing specific anymore. "Opaque" witness, not fully empty) Roger Thisdell Stage 2 4: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the BEING anything at all 5: There is still some Identity: I. But nothing specific at all, pretty empty. A pretty empty "Transparent" Witness. Can be quite nondual (One Mind/the whole visual field. One (but a not empty one), united with the nondual visual field. Many Psychedelic Experiences throw one here. Nondual, but not fully empty, Sense of transparent/pretty empty Self/Witness still well and alive. Roger Thisdell stage 3. 6: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the transparent Witness 7: One is No-Self. Nothing. Buuut: Identity with No-Self/Nothing, the perceiving or understanding of being Nothing. Still one arising/subtle identity/concept too much. A Portal to the Absolute. Awareness OF Emptiness. Awareness OF Being. Any Awarness OF is still not fully nondual. Even if Awareness OF Emptiness/Being/Infinite/whatever n+1 . Psychedelics can bring one here, if "one" gets already quite empty, but Individuality (very subtle/murky here) is still there. Roger Thisdells Stage 4: 8/9/10/11: Understanding and letting go even this last self-referential concept/thought/identity 12: Nothing. Pure Suchness. Infinite Consciousness so empty that there is not even a Watcher/Awarerer/Identity with No-Self. Final Enlightenment. Ultimate Reality itself. Only then, daily life is nondual, infinite, enlightened. And the bliss of ones True Being, NOTHINGNESS, flows freely. Really no separate self/individuality left. Only then one is really the whole Enchilada without any filters/lenses/localization of any separate self/individuality. The character keeps continuing doing its thing in ones True Self, Reality itself. The price of that: Any self-reflective awareness of being anything (separate) at all is transcended, and can be seen happening within oneself. Understood, and no longer believed, mostly just cut off (that Illusion again). And that is not even being the "No-Self Self" of Thisdells stage 4, or picture 7. To be fully everything in daily life (fully nondual) without any separation, one needs to be fully nothing at all. Totally empty. Any separate self, however subtle, fully gone. And the last remnants of Individuality or separate self can be very very subtle. Only that gets the permanent bliss and love flowing that has got its home in the Nondual True Self. "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche" Roger Thisdell Stage 5 And by the way, any just conceptual identity with anything (The THAT of I am THAT), That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1), even with God/Reality/whatever, is picture 1 of the path in daily life. I AM THAT (That=God/Reality/whatever). Because it is normally not a nondual awakened state in daily life, but just some ideas taken away from a trip that got one to Nonduality. A hang-over of the trip, while being currently not at all in an awakened or nondual state. And hopefully it is at least this (a hang-over from a trip), and not just some pure conceptual trip without any change in states towards at least a bit awakening, and not just a pure head-trip. And actually a much worser starting place, because the lovely concept of being God blows up ones sense of self (THAT) tremendously. Neti Neti didn't get easier with making THAT bigger than it was before.... Pour encourager les autres.... Sorry Selling Water by the River

Selling Water by the River

... and if one skipps flunks No-Self Awakening, and directly thinks one has become/realized God/Awareness/whatever, every reader can choose for himself if the outcome is a) something like a minor or major https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex or b) Realized & enlightened & pretty happy, full of compassion and patience, and bissfully ever after SHARING DA LOVE!!!! . Sorry. But giving a clear example of that is also beneficial. Not for the victim of that little pre-trans-Fallacy (in Ken Wilbers definition, https://integrallife.com/pre-trans-fallacy/), but for the viewers... Anyways, and as always: Bon Voyage on our lovely little trips back home (either of the more or less winded categories), to a home we never really left. Enjoy the ride! Water the River

Yes. But how many Buddhists are enlightened? Its easy to turn emptiness (small e, or nothing) or void into dogma. And Ultimate Reality is void, in the meaning of Nothingness. Which includes Infinite Potential also. Let's use the system of Ken Wilber: The states you mentioned would be classified as Causal States, I assume 5 MeO induced. The one with the void is quite empty, the other one some kind of Whiteout/Infinite Potential, I assume from your description. Obviously IT. So far, so good. How much separate-self elements were still active ("You become aware OF the void", so YOU + OF active, and "because when YOU see THAT"), and how fully nondual that was, I can't tell from the post/text. The thing is, to get it into daily life, the separate self arisings need to be transcended (the YOU/transparent Witness aware OF something). And these are really really subtle at the end. But the Total Emptiness/Nothingness of ones primordial Being has to potential to kill them in the end (or to transcend them, spot them, know them, cut them off). With enough time in the right states. My path was mainly Mahamudra/Dzogchen based. I can not tell you if and how (and with how much time) you can transcend these subtle separate self layers in these states you mention. What I can tell you, that I am not aware of a single case where that worked fully (until the end of the road) only or mainly with Psychedelics. Can be there are, I am not aware of them. My first assumption on the psychedelic path is: Not enough time in these states, and the very/quite empty/subtle"perceiver" OF that obvious Infinity/Whiteout was still there. With OF written in capital letters. And the subtle perceiver can't easily/normally see itself. My second assumption on the psychedelic path is: That the psychedelic-only path doesn't suffice is wanted by the Universe, the construction of Reality. Because to get fully empty sobre, you have to transcend your ego/separate self. It is necessary for mainting/practicing certain states that are necessary for final Realization to become a more compassionate being. Because you need an open and accepting/loving state/heart for these states. If one is not compassionate, one won't get there. Ken Wilber clearly states that also. All traditions have training systems of compassion/love/boddhichitta. And Psychedelics deliver a large part of understanding (Infinity/Whiteout/nondual) reality without change in character necessary. But not the full thing, stable in daily life. And I assume that is not a bug, but a feature. The world doesn't need enlightened "not so loving" people, doing things "not so loving" people do, powered by Enlightenment-states of no more psychological suffering and the like. To get Realization stable in everyday life, that subtle perceiver/Awarer needs to go/transcended, and specifically the OF sth. needs to go. Nondual. In Ken Wilbers System: "Beyond that Infinity, there is an Abyss. Of Nothingness/Emptiness/Shunyata" (Hardcore Concentrative Meditation State, something similiar to Cessation/Nirvikalpa, or maybe also corresponding state accessible via Psychedelics, Of which I don't know, never heard of it. Normallly it stops at the Whiteout/Infinity. From what I assume it is hard to get via this Abyss (if it exists) the separate self killed/transcended via Psychedelics). And even going the hardcore-states-path (psychedelics or hardcore concentrative meditation), that Abyss-Shunyata-Causal-(Cessation)-State dissolves the separate self only after a long time in it, or better said going in and out quite often. Like after Cessations coming out of that Abyss when the separate self "reassembles" again and one can watch how that works. But as you can read in Ingrams Book and Frank Yangs writings, that doesn't work directly to understand the structure of the separate self (but only helps doing so), and is only the beginning of that path, not the end. And also, both (Ingram and Yang) state it is not necessary to got that Cessation-Path. I know cases of the hardcore concentrative systems that have achieved that, but also they started with Hardcore Concentrative Meditations, aiming for Cessations, and later on included elements of the Mahamudra/Dzogchen-Path (BEFORE Enlightenment), see Daniel Ingram and Frank Yang. Both switched to including more Mahamudra/Dzogchen elements/style, or at least integrated elements of it, because the classic Theravada Path Map didn't reflect their experiences, at least not from Path 2 to 4 Theravada Map onwards. see Ingrams Book and Frank Yangs writings. Same with Ken Wilber, who changed after 15 years Zen to Mahamudra/Dzogchen, doing that 15 years. But, as I said, that wasn't my path (Theravada-Path). From my experiences, I would dissolve the separate self systematically and directly (Stage 3 and 4 Mahamudra+Dzogchen), using large parts of daily life for doing that with the right methods, From all I have seen/read/know, that is much more direct, pleasant and efficient. It is very direct, no detours. Can be practices and used efficiently in daily life, and not only/mainly facing the wall on the pillow, Its the method developed&chosen by the Tibetan, who have (arguably) doing that for the longest uninterrupted time with most practitioners and most success. It is also their highest teaching system/method. Hope that helps a bit.... Selling Water by the River

Yup, agree with that. emptiness [small e] in the meaning of nothing, as in opposite of something, is imaginary so to say. At least for me, the usage of Emptiness/Shunyata is more something along these lines, as per my last post: "A good meaning of Emptiness/Shunyata [big E] is (in the opinion of yours truly, in the meaning of "a good meaning/concept brings one closer to realization, not away from it) all is just a construct of mind (emptiness of concepts), and the passing nature of everything (of even empty/void states/cessation/Nirvikalpha) basically, that everything (apperance, state, self-thought/concept-arising, anything at all) is just an imagined arising in the Absolute. Just an apperance, a process, a verb, not a noun, a self-existing substance or thing. It all happens in True Infinite You, nothing is permanent, all changing and in flux. a verb, not a noun. every and each appearance "thing"/arising is finite, temporary, passing. Not the Infinite/Absolute." So the Buddhist usage of Emptiness/Shunyata normally aims not to emptiness in the sense of nothing there or nothing, but more on the transient character of all manifestation/phenomena/arisings (which then could be called imaginary, or temporarily arising IN Reality made OF Reality/Nothingness). And so it also emphasizes the unlimited potential, or infinite potential of the Absolute, or Nothingness. So in that sense it means more Infinite Reality. Although considering THE Emptiness as a thing is then the so called eternalist error, making it a thing. Considering it as non-existent would be the Nihilist error. Its nothing specific, yet it is not nothing. Emptiness/Shunyata is Infinite Reality itself. The Buddhists take the Emptiness perspective, Vedanta takes the Infinite Consciousness perspective. Both are methods to point to Absolute Reality where both Dualities (Something, Nothing) collapse: The Opening of Reality itself, nothing specific that appears (in it), but also not nothing (like in nothing at all). But yeah, I agree with your posts. It is always a question of what one understands under these terms, like emptiness/nothing, or Empitness/Shunyata/ Nothingness/Absolute. There is a lot of "gray area usage" in many articles, and sooo much potential for mutual misunderstanding because of varying use of terms. The Buddhist Emptiness/Shunyata normally is not equated with nothing, but more with the list of items above. But that is just a question how one defines and uses these terms.... Saying the Absolute or True You needs to be fully empty on the other side means exactly that: It/One needs to be nothing at all, Neti Neti gone to the end of full infinite nondual No-Self, else one confuses it with an object/arising. Only when fully empty, it/one can conforms with Nothingness/Absolute, the essence of reality. And that then (when fully empty) can contain everything. Okay, I admit, that post was for the hardcore-aficionados-fraction . Bassui finished his letters always with something like this (to not get anybody get caught up in unnecessary concepts): After reading, throw it into the fire. Same with this post of yours truly... What I want to say is: if one continues with Neti Neti in meditation and practice, one is doing fine, and doesn't associate the Absolute/Nothingness with anything that can be described, pointed to, talked about, has properties, and so on, but PURE indescribably, or being totally infinite (which is the same as totally empty/Empty), then one is also doing fine. One only gets problems when ones Absolute is not fully empty/Emptiness/Nothingness. For example if it changes or has certain properties attributed to it, like the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness/Absolute can have (like God, Gods, Intelligence, Love, whatever n+1). Or even "better", pretty empty remnants of the separate self (empty nondual witness, Awareness "of" sth., and so on). And the Absolute can be fine without any show appearing in it. Empty, Infinite. Cessation/Nirvikalpha/Deep Sleep. Water by the River

Yes, you are right. In most postings I make already have very long musings mainly coming from the Nothingness/Emptiness/Wisdom/Absolute side of the street. That is why I spare the fellow forum members in most cases from even longer posts including the love/compassion/boddhichitta aspect. But these aspects are at least as important, and often more important. Sat-Chit-Ananda. The bliss and love these higher Awakening States contain. The separate self contraction drowning in the flow of love/bliss of the nondual states. Here are two of my favourite poems from Meister Eckhart on Waking Up & God & Love .which I have posted several times, because of the utmost importance of love on the path. Please, take a few minutes and watch them. They are really beautiful. the videos see for example linked in the post below: And below are some further musings on the utmost importance of Compassion &Love&Boddhichitta on the path & beyond. ... That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/ transcendence/ Awakening/ Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that?.... [More in the link below]. So,I believe our perspectives align quite well. And I believe because there are some deep structures in the process of waking up to ones True Being, like the flow of Sat-Chit-Ananda and Boddhichitta/Love/Compassion that both comes as side-effect of higher states, but also allows keeping these awake states in daily life more easily if the love/compassion-aspect is actively cultivated. There is a lot of practice of love and compassion in Buddhism, like in Tonglen or Metta. At least in Mahayana-systems like Tibetan Buddhism. In Therevada there is also, but with a bit lower importance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitrī By the way, yours truly is no way married to Buddhism. I am happy to use anything from any tradition that works & makes sense. Lovely book on the topic is for example "Hixon, L: Coming Home: The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions", with Enlightenment Examples ranging from Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufi, Kaballa, Plotinus, I-Ching, Christian Mystics to Vedanta/Advaita like Ramana or Ramakrishna. Its always love and emptiness. Very true. Who knows the spring does not drink from the jar. (Hope that works in English ) Water by the River

A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ). https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/ True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics). True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment. "There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it. The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above. Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining. "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above. When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip. Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self: not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute) but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left. The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of identity, center, localization, any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity. And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured. And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness. The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous. And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please Selling Water by the River PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand: Then, at least, its very charming . Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!

Thanks for your message, and don't worry. Every being has its own style. I am just writing what I wished I had earlier. We will see if and for whom that will be beneficial. There is no other way than to communicate in concepts, words and duality here in this forum. Which is what I try to do as good as possible. I am very well aware of the limits of concepts and theory, and the limits of any kind of practice (see below, section/link Nonmeditation Yoga). And don't worry for me confusing the map with the territory. Else I wouldn't write about Nothingness (to kill every concept) or Madhyamaka or, in the final stage, kicking out all doing/meditating/anything at all: Nonmeditation-Yoga: So I appreciate your post, since I myself would have probably considered writing some kind of similiar warning to somebody like yours truly spamming the forum with theory loaded with concepts. Especially if I would have never seen/intuited the internal state of the theory-concept-factory in real life. If we would meet person to person, we would not need to speak a word to understand each other. Water by the River