Water by the River

Jac O'Keffee: "I even heard a Nondual speaker say that Awareness is always aware of itself. [No] it is not. Sure it has [mostly] the experience of being aware of itself but: It is totally possible for awareness to be without being aware of itself. It totally shows itself to not have any clue that it exists at all. You pull away existence there is no sense of itself. " Or Pure Impersonal Consciousness unaware of itself: Possible. No Self-reflective anything appearing in it. And because that is possible, Infinite Consciousness/Awareness is fully empty, impersonal, infinite. Nothingness. And can be unaware of itself. But with the potential for sentience/awareness. When an appearance shows up. And self-awareness as soon as any identity/indivduality/separate-self-arising appears, and the self-reflective mind starts... Selling Water by the River

It for sure does. That is what happens in most cases. Which is why a good map is essential. Good pointers, not pointers halfway up the mountain. Suffering doesn't stop halfway up the mountain. For example: More on that here: Selling Water by the River

@Bazooka Jesus If I ever need a clown, I am going to hire the one-and-only Bazooka JESUS! Oh, I need one. Guess everbody better does Love your posts man, really do... Water by the River

Ok, agree, but once you change to a state, let's say, deep, silent, non-dual... even here, you are still limited. You have broken the ice surface of the bottomless pond, but the magnetism that the surface exerts is too strong. You are floating in infinity but you cannot immerse yourself in it, half of your body is still floating, your vision is short. yes. That is why nondual-unity states are not necessarily yet fully impersonal. Normally it is a stage on the path where the separate self finally dies and is seen through/transcended. Bit by bit. The full death/transcendence of the separate self (towards becoming (as Deep Identity) the Totality of Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Awareness, independend of whatever shows up) needs a long time of ripening in the nondual state, to transcend the last subtle remnants of any kind of individuality/separateness. To go from nondual-unity to impersonal/no individuality/full infinite real Nonduality. Or waking up. @Bazooka Jesus: Quod erat demonstrandum Selling Water by the River

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekchö In Dzogchen, trekchö (khregs chod) means "(spontaneous) cutting of tension" or "cutting through solidity." "dropping of all of your contextualizations & interpretations" Definitely the case for the guy with the helmet. Isn't that why you are here? Are you not entertained? Selling Water by the River

Considering all this thinking ones way to the Absolute... This Mormon choir does it at least in style. While staying with decent, humble, sane and likeable egos. Not blowing it up to coscmic proportions. At the moment of Death My strength if from heaven And what is even stranger: Besides some mods stating something like "take it slowly" there is zero comment from higher up on: "Enlightenment is just a reinterpretation" instead of Awakening and actual awakened states. With a questionable effect on the general spiritual flight level of this forum. Selling Water by the River

Enlightenment It is not just a reinterpretation or recontextualization. It tends to stabilize awakened states in daily life. Change of brainwaves for example: Good luck doing that with reinterpretation or recontextulization. Or "thinking" ones way to Enlightenment, blowing up the Ego to cosmic proportions. I mean Leo clearly says Awakening is a state change, an awakening, and not just recontextualisation or reinterpretation. Nonduality is clearly an awakened state and not just mental reinterpretation or recontextualization. Water by the River

Very true. Mayas legions. Well known in Vajrayana practice. And good luck seeing these dark forces as something merely appearing in oneself, when one is barely able to keep mindfulness in daily life... "Who are YOU in this vast multiverse, Mr. Strange?" That whole movie was inspired by the trips of the writers, especially this scene. Hic Sunt Dracones. That can eat an uprepared trippers mental sanity for breakfast. But Razard has already proposed watching Horror-movies with hard psychedelics, just for the fun of it. When asked by Breakingthewall which kind of stuff he tripped with not much came back... Selling Water by the River

Because "Your Consciousness" is in reality totally empty and impersonal. With just some Illusions arisings of I/me arise and float/move in it. It seems that "you" are these I-feelinsg/I-thoughts, but these are just objects moving in you. Temporarily. You can fully well "be there", the world arising in you, but no person/ego anywhere to be found. Just perceptions perceiving themselves. THAT Impersonal Consciousness is the same as Leos, or "mine", or "anybodys". That is not just theory, but the direct understanding/apprehension in certain awakened states. And that only works because it is fully Impersonal, which is another word for fully empty. NOTHING, but aware. Because if it would not be literally Pure Empty Awareness, it doesn't fit into the mindstream of "another" being. How would the feeling/thinking of being you, OBEler, "fit" into somebody else? It wouldn't. And that is why the full impersonal or fully empty part of Impersonal Consciousness is so important: As long as it is not impersonal and fully empty, one can never understand what another is. Or oneself. And IT is also literally the essence of all appearance of the World. World=Consciousness. That is clear in nondual states, when there are not two, but one nondual infinite field WITHOUT any subject splitting this Infinite Field of Reality into two. And if "you" don't see Leos point of view, the perspective of Infinite Consciousness that is the sentient being/perspective of Leo perceiving other perceptions..... And all perspectives/beings/Nodes in Indras Net Mirror reflect each other: Or the picture of Leos Infinity of Gods video is also Indras Net. Selling Water by the River

Yes, much better than Absolute Solipsism. How about Ken Wilbers description/perspective? Every "thing/being" actually is a perspective (of Infinite Consciousness), a Holon. A crystal node in Indras Net, reflecting and reacting on all other Nodes. Indras Net is a very common Psychedelic Experience, so its not just theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net And now the cruical point: Everything, from Human, Animal, Plant, Molecule, Atom can be considered as perspective/holon imagined and held in Gods/Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/ seemlingly "spliced" up Infinite Mind divided into infinite sub-perspectives. And using perspective as fundamental building block of the Lila (imagined of course), one never has to leave the Mind-Only thinking/school (Yogachara school of Mind Only Doctrine of Buddhism for example). All is Infinite Mind/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Suchness/Nothingness. Then, its actually quite easy to explain what happens with actualized.org, or your Laptop, or anything else when "you" leave the room and don't perceive it anymore: It continues as perspectives/Holons (Molecules and so on) in Indras Great Net, the sum total of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. Not as matter, but as perspectives/Holons held in Indras Net. And Indras Net is nothing else then Infinite Consciousness spliced into infinite perspectives. Same holds of course for other beings like humans. No need to say "you don't exist when I don't perceive you", which is madness anyway. And every Holon contains other sub-holons, a human contains organs, cells, molecules, atoms. Each being perspectives/Holons/perspectives reflecting and reacting on other Holons/perspectives. That solves the remaining problems of Solipsism easily, although its then no longer Solipsism, but True Nonduality. Infinite Consciousness splitting itself up into the Infinite Perspectives of Indras Net of Holons/perspectives of consciousness. The sum total of these infinite perspectives of Consciousness of Indras Net forms then the totality of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. Or "form". And beyond, and yet also in it as its essence, in a truly nondual way, it the Absolute, or Infinite Reality. Infinite Impersonal totally Empty Boundless Timeless Consciousness. That way of perceiving Reality solves all problems of Solipsism, and leaves one with True Nonduality. And that way of perceiving is a pointer that (if practiced until achieving its referent/meaning, Enlightenment) actually points and leads not to a cosmic ego of infinitely bloated dimension, identifying in unity with the whole Kosmos, and only ending in the claws of the separate-self contraction and the suffering that the ego is at its core, but to an enlightened Mindstream of Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Reality. And the freedom from suffering, bliss and love these awakened states carry as their essence. Selling Water by the River

Lovely Pointers. Thanks for the post. Yes, words fail. I don't mean to describe the Absolute as blind in any way. That is not its nature. If any, its nature IS Awareness, at its core. But too much "its" in this sentence of mine, and Awareness is not any "thing" being pointed to, despite the word awareness is a noun. One can go via the via negativa path: Nothingness. Or with positive description of properties or potential or "doing": Awareness. Potential for sentience. Or Awareness of perceptions perceiving themselves. At the end, "it" is empty, aware, nondual, infinite, all there is. And the Infinite Reality beyond all appearance. And IT is ones True Self. Nondual, Infinite. One without a second. Pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, Infinite Reality itself. Unchanging, Silent, eternal, unchanging, unmoving, without "anything" being possibly outside of it (infinite). So all "via negative", not this not that. And its potential or essence of Awareness. But Awareness is a "loaded" concept, see below. The negative concept are more uncritical. Nothing is as close to the divine as silence. And Nothingness as pointer for example covers Deep Sleep quite well. While describing the Absolute only as Awareness would cause probably some hard time understanding it for a non-enlightened being, since the experience/"memory" of it is different. As long as one can intuit right now what is still present in Deep Sleep, which can not not be there, it aligns again. Nothingness, as defined by Andrew Hawal, God is Nothingness. A pointer I personally like a lot. No danger of "solidfying" it as some kind of thing, or not empty consciousness. And "the" Awareness, or potential for it, clearly stil there Appendix I of "God is Nothingness" Some readers may be wondering why I say that awareness is not the Absolute, despite the fact that so many ancient scriptures and eminent teachers say that they are identical. For instance, Nisargadatta taught that consciousness is rooted in (and therefore limited to) the physical human form, while awareness transcended the individual body and was actually the Absolute—that everything is Universal Consciousness. This is more of an instructive approach than a philosophical commitment. If pressed as to whether the Absolute is awareness or not, I would say, like Huang Po did, that, “Mind is not mind, yet neither is it no-mind.” In Nothingness, there is some degree of awareness present—it is not how most people imagine brain death—albeit unconditioned, object- and subjectless. The Consciousness (for lack of a better word) of Non-being is so subtle that the moment we try to reflect upon it to check if we are conscious, we are jarred back into ‘being’ and into our ordinary dualistic consciousness. I hesitate even to call this experience “pure subjectivity,” for that invites a metaphysical position that I am not willing to support. In the end, to paraphrase Socrates, all that I know is Nothing. This Consciousness has shed all of the characteristics that people normally identify with awareness, such as perspective, spatial and temporal contexts, objects, ownership, etc. Yet, if there were no awareness, then it would be impossible to differentiate the numinous Nothingness from how people conventionally conceive of blankness or being comatose. Personally, I think that differentiating between Nothingness and consciousness is helpful, and that is my ultimate goal—to help people realize Non-being or Absolute Consciousness. At that point, I can care less whether people call it Nothingness, God, Brahman, Buddha Nature, One Mind, Universal Consciousness, or a kangaroo. Names at that point, after the Absolute has been realized, are insignificant." Yes, and that needs to be added. I can understand why you write that. All Pointers at the end are not it, but arise in it. Probably some resonate more with certain pointers than with others. We are all just starting communicating that. There are no studies showing which pointers work better for which practitioner. And that should be the goal: To get the maximum number of people to get "it". Of course not in a grasping way. So, I can just state the Pointers that worked for me. And for other practitioners wired similiar as me, probably could work too. And try to intuit which pointers probably work for the largest number of beings. Anyway, as we both know, the bliss & love these awakened nondual states of Pure Infinite Consciousness bring, leading to a drowning of the activities and self-contraction of the separate self, conversing about pointers arising within IT is just some minor nuisance that one just does to be able to communicate it at least a bit. I do have a faible for trying to align the pointers of different systems/traditions/teachings. Being able to explain which mystic used which pointer (and some are quite contradicting, for example the topic of Its Awareness vs. Awareness is not it), and what he/she means with the concepts. If for example using the term/pointer/concept "Awareness", there is a huge spectrum ranging from Awareness OF, to Pure witnessing Awareness to Nondual Unity Awareness to Infinite boundless timeless Awareness.... And that faible for aligning the pointers of different systems comes from having needed to do that on the path. My path. And there many many paths up the mountain, and many many pointers.... Ah, UnbornTao, please hit me. Seems I can't write short posts. Water by the River

according to my current understanding, which is recent and surely must be quite nuanced, reality is not a mind, it is the total infinity that it is. total infinity gives rise to a mind that has attributes such as intelligence and will, which limits and creates forms getting blind to the infinity and creating the finite. this mind is also limited in some way because if it were not, it would not create limitation. Ultimately, the absolute is undifferentiated, infinite, and total, without creation or activity. First, I am in full alignment with everything Moksha said. That description is precise, beautiful, and doesn't have the problem that many other pointers have. That said: I would have probably never gotten it from the usual very concise pointers. Maybe I would have, but much much later. Of that I am convinced. Looking back after got it, its totally clear what is meant with these pointers. What is written below would have helped me quite a lot back in the day. So excuse the length please. Topic 1: Why does Huang Po use Universal Mind? Why is Infinite or Absolute a better pointer, althoug Universal Mind/Infinite Consciousness is still correct? Better Pointer is: Infinite Reality. Absolute. Because no object/appearance = No Awareness. Infinite. Empty. Nothingness. Similiar to Deep Sleep. Not exactly the same, but by definition "one" is still existing then, else one wouldn't come back in the morning. And one can't say what Infinite Reality is, because it is infinite. Infinite Reality IS. So best pointer is: Infinite Reality. Nothingness. Not yet awareness or mind. But: Infinite Reality has the potential/capacity for sentience/awareness. As soon as something shows up, then its no longer Infinite. Massaros water pistol example of a waterpistol just appearing in Infinite Vastness (which was "the case" before the water pistol/anything showed up. The potential for awareness just showed up as awareness, because an object and duality appeared. So because of this potential for sentience/Awareness, one can describe IT as Universal Mind, Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. But even more precise is Infinite Reality/Nothingness. Because without anything appearing, it isn't really a mind. It is IT. Infinite. But also not different from Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. It all depends on the meaning of the concepts/pointers. Wolinsky goes the hardcore-path: The Absolute/Infinity Reality/True You is NOT Awarnesness nor Consciousness. He described Awareness/Consciousness as Awareness OF, Consciousness OF. And rejects Awareness/Consciousness as Absolute. Because for him its always Awareness OF, Consciousness OF. Which is not incorrect, see the Water Pistol example. That is also correct. Same does Andrew Halaw, and his pointer Nothingness. So the problem with Awareness is: There is always (!) an Awareness OF, even if its a subtle formless object, like certain causal states. An infinite darkness suffused with light. Ok, what is the light? Ah,... . Without the OF (or the object appearing), Awareness is still there, but more as potential. Infinite. Or Nothing/empty. These Dualities collapse then. And that is the most important meaning of all of it. At the Absolute and Infinite Reality, any duality or any pointer just collapses. Infinite. Empty/Nothing specific. Potential for Awareness. And all of that not different things, but ONE without a second, Infinite. Real Nondual Infinite. Topic 2: And then, the separate-self, the self-reflective mind: Looking AT something thinking it is one self, or looking over its shoulds trying to see itself, and generating an EXPERIENCE of emptiness/Nothingness/Awareness/blank/whatever. JUST AN EXPIRIENCE, not real you/Infinite/Absolute. And next challenge is: The separate-self is a self-reflexive movement in Infinite Reality: Consciousness turning its head back to see itself, doesn't see itself of course, has an EXPERIENCE of Nothingness/emptiness/Infinity. And this LOOKING over its shoulder IS the Illusion of the separate self, of the self-reflective mind. And that movement of looking over its shoulds happens IN Infinite Reality/IN Infinite Consciousness. And all doubting/searching/reflecting/thinking that is it/what is it/that is not/do I have it/do I understand it.... ALL of that is "movement" within Infinite Consciousness, OBJECTS appearing, staying, disappearing. Moving within oneself. And even the understanding/realization/Enlightenment happens within it, within Pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Reality that can be unaware of itself. One never can get "out" of this Infinite. And Infinite Reality is NEVER and object. It is not the experience of "oneself" or anything within it TRYING to see itself (the eye can't see itself). Jac O'Keffe: Primary Consciousness (her term for Infinite Reality and Infinite Consciousness) IS SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL that it CANT TURN AROUND AND SEE ITSELF. Cant look back over its shoulder to see itself. That would be a movement within it. Please watch this video a few times: "Primary Consciousness (Infinite Consciousness) is such a fundamental it CANT SEE ITSELF." Ok, I am rambling on. Please go through the links & video a few times. There are enough pointers in there to really get it. And sorry guys if it is so long. I can't make it shorter and still get the meaning across with any reasonable chance. If anybody can make it shorter, and still get the complexity of it across, please let me know. You get a few free beers from me while you explain me how to do it shorter. I also can do the frog pond plop, or Infinite Mind, or whatever in a one liner. Just probably nobody will get it.,, The way above, probably also nearly nobody will get it. Takes awakened states. But maybe some who are on the edge will, and others will have a better map up the mountain, and will spot and get what to do/where to go at certain stages. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Ready not, here we come! ... whaddayathink? Are the Aliens ready for some visits from primitive humans knocking at their door? Is that good for the welfare & health of the Alien dominion, or will they die laughing when "primitive us" pop up in their realms on intravenous DMT? The "other" Alien Consciousness course, by Hancock/Strassman/Gallimore. Sure more focused on the "other" Alien itself and not on understanding Reality/God itself. But hey: Doesn't the Alien on the picture look kinda cute? Interesting times for sure! Water by the River PS: @Bazooka Jesus In case you feel really "pushed out of your original professional calling, did you read that with the "intravenous DMT"? Aliens? Volunteers? Although yours truly will always consider himself not at all able to follow in the impressive jester-footsteps you luckily continue to leave us till this day, and so can't understand how the one-and-only unreplaceable Bazooka Jesus can even have such thoughts arising in his mindstream...

Very true. Love your comments, metaphors, pictures and film recommendations by the way. They really enrich the forum. GQs tumbling in the dungeon. The poor chap caught in the slimy cube. And your way of highlighting the obvious and less than obvious things. And Russell doing the: "Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained ?!" What a marvelous collection of ladies and gentlemen in this forum! Each and every one playing its unique role. Water by the River

Agreed. LD50 of H2O is 90g/kg. So, its deadly after more than 2 days without, but also gets annoying in too high doses. Same on this side over here. Luckily, the noisy little watery bug comes with an offswitch. Hope my kind of humor is not too annoying. Yours truly at least is more annonyed by serious preaching without any self-irony. And you know, somehow gotta tell the gospel. But like I wrote before, too much sand&sweat&blood while acting in these kind of movies.... and the role is already taken by another actor. Anyway, I hear ya! Water by the River

Yes, probably the Alien faction without a sense of style & proportion. They gotta have some of these characters too! And who did that over Nuremberg back in the day 1561? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg What posing! No style & decency. For more funny playing with humans: Visionary: The Mysterious Origins of Human Consciousness: the Definitive Edition of Supernatural, Hancock Selling Water by the River

@UnbornTao Gotta work on my shorter responses & revealing the real river sometimes... Whaddayasay? How much of that ( above) can humanity actually endure? Rumours have it that Water by the River will be promoted degraded to court fool [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester]: With the licence for some Ancient Greek comedy [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_comedy] and Kabuki. The only one at court that it save from instant-execution for blasphemy and lèse-majesty (like in, execution of the court fool would be a bit against conventions, poor guy only doing its job, so not so cool...), but has to wear "brightly colored clothes and eccentric hats" while doing so. @Bazooka Jesus will consult me on the compilation of the new jester-dress, for sure. Water by the River

Well, every truth needs somebody stating it. Liked your post btw. Smart & cool and in style. So, since we have made it (maybe ) out of the negging phase with the profanity, let's dance! Water by the River

Very wise answer, much smarter than yours truly. And actually true. frog pond plop - Basho Relative Pointers to the mountain summit, and the different lower peaks/ridges below it leading up there? Maybe a "climbing map" showing the safe way up there? To avoid the dragons/hic sunt dracones, and the paths leading back to the valley? Not today, darling. Selling Water by the River

ok, here comes the take of yours truly. Warning: Bumpy conceptual ride ahead! All of them: concepts, used with differing meaning in different concepts. Not any kind of Absolute Truth, but concepts appearing in IT. Below is the take of yours truly on the most common usage. Void: Anything from a state (causal, void state) to Ultimate Reality. But is better used as a state description Truth: Normally pointer to Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality: Same. Absolute Solipsism: Trying to think ones way via conceptual thinking to the Absolute Reality which is infinite, and which can mostly only be described in negative terms, since any positive description would limit it. Doing the Universal Mind/Infinite Consciousness thing of Huang-Po (see last post) is ok. But confusing this Impersonal Infinite Consciousness with a mind-stream that is not fully awakened, aka where a separate self confuses itself with Ultimate Reality, is, uh, not so smart. Biggest Problem: Proponents of that normally don't have awakened/enlightened states in daily life. Biggest Risk: Narcicissm, not Ego-death but Cosmic-Ego. Identifying separate self or any kind of identity/self with Totality. Usefulness for the Path to the Mountain Summit/Nothingness/Absolute: Shooting ones knee with a gun and then trying to start walking and proclaiming how fast one got already on the mountain summit while limping in the valley Alien Consciousness: Some understanding on the form/manifestation side of Infinite Consciousness, albeit much more than a human is capable off in non-tripping-states, on a very high level. Better yet, ask the creator of that concept. Yours truly has no intelectual ownership on it. Danger: Proclaiming that as more important than Full Enlightenment, or letting go of the separate-self illusions that cover ones Deep Identity as Impersonal Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality, in which every appearance/thougt/self-concept-arising can only arise as Illusion/Dream/Mirage. Leads apparently to chasing the next Awakening, n+1. And not being quite happy on a permanent basis. God Realization anything from Full Enlightenment to a tool to bash any form of Awakening/Enlightenment one doesn't like. Depens on the usage and author using that term. For the bashing-anything-else-version of it, clear definitions are usually not given. Could sound like Full Enlightenment if really spelled out explicitely. No-Self tricky term. In its highest meaning: the final death/transcedence of each and any separate self arising. True No-Self. can be also be used for anything from no-Ego, no-Person, like opaque witness or transparent witness. should only be used for Pure Impersonal Nothingness/Impersonal Infinite Consciousness to avoid confusions. The most interesting conept/pointer would be Full Enlightenment. For that, see my last posts. Selling Water by the River

And off we go again.. How about considering the context of the statement of Boddhidharma, to highlight that the Absolute is always right here (by definition), in all ordinariness also? Of course, IT is doing the 7 wonders of the Universe/Aliens and more, but that is not the context of that statement. For that, like I wrote, see something like the Supreme Source. Or other stuff. Ok, got it. One could get the impression that there is some trying to scare away other perspectives by profanity and mere claims, devoid of any arguments. Rational exchange of perspectives based on mutual respect ahoi! Oh well. To each his own. Oh, sorry, only partly politically correct nowadays. Suum cuique. That is still ok nowadays. Selling Water by the River

Please let me invite for the daily Buddhism-bashing. Today, Huang-Po-style: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun "One Mind Huángbò's teaching centered on the concept of “mind” (Chinese: hsin), a central issue for Buddhism in China for the previous two centuries or more. He taught that mind cannot be sought by the mind. One of his most important sayings was “mind is the Buddha”. He said: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings." "All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the Universal Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong too the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, traces, and comparisons." Huang Po, Blofeld John, trans. "The Zen Teachings of Huang Po" Serious and non-profane comments on the inadequacy of that pointer/description welcome. Selling Water by the River

Thanks. I am trying to be as concise as possible. Balancing it with "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" Times are near when all the complex stuff has been covered in previous posts. Then, yours truly is looking forward to retire , just writing a few concise lines, and maybe sometimes a link to the old post for the aficionado. Water by the River

yeah, maybe he even said that sometimes in the spirit of Who knows? And if one needs a bit more pathos when it comes to Ultimate Reality: The Supreme Source. And for more technical precision on the Clap of the One Hand (or at least, until shortly below IT), more references on request. But I guess we don't want a serious (or not so serious), detailed and cool/non-profane discussion, do we? Selling Water by the River