Water by the River

Hear hear. "Confuse the state that arises [when they have an enlightenment (or awakening)] with the consciousness itself..." That (mistaken) move is as old as the spiritual traditions themselves. It is descriped in varying degrees of clarity & complexity in all of them. It all depends on how much the (separate-self) structure interpreting the experience/state has become empty/impersonal/transcended/seen/made subject/filter/lense->object and so on...

Yes to that on an absolute level/perspective, big question mark on the relative/appearance level. And maybe God/Reality arranged it (just to have fun) in such a way that from a relative perspective it looks very much like life-bardo-life-.... and so on, with all the Karma/learning experiences over many lifes, stored in some kind of Kosmic Memory, forming a kind of soul? Sure all relative/appearance, but everything else you perceive/think/feel is also relative/appearance. And as long as one doesn't rest quite permanently in Impersonal Nondual Suchness, the relative does look & feel very real, and can make quite some (emotional) impression... So in my opinion, a wise perspective on Karma (and reincarnation): "Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour." Padmasambhava There are endless reports (over all centuries and cultures) ranging from meditation experiences (for example of Storehouse Consciousness and many realms/dimensions), to Out-of-body-experiences (experiencing for example after death realms, or storehouse-consciousness for these soul-units), or Near-Death-Experiences, all showing some of the relative truths of all of that. Among the best stuff I have seen so far, combined with some legit Enlightenment-Experiences, is the material/books/videos from Jürgen Ziewe: https://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Astral_Travel_and_life_after_death.html And as Bazooko said correctly: ALL of that is manifested/incarnated/imagined right here and right now, including the imagined past/history/Karma/Reincarnation/all of it. But that would be the Absolute Truth. And as long as the relative/manifestation side has emotional impact, philosophizing from and flying high more towards the Absolute Side of Truth is dangerous terrain... as recently demonstrated here quite impressively. Water by the River

The answer on the little Koans you gave me is: chuckle. But a loving one. And concerning the years and hours practiced: That is no lie. If you also claim clairvoyance besides Enlightenment, I would check the clair-part of the voyance. For self-enquiry: sure, done for a loooong time. Never found myself. Only everything, and the chuckle. And now something for you my imaginary friend: Sovereignity as God: yes. But also skillfull means, humility, love and compassion with all children of your Being, to the best of your abilities. So lets smoke the pipe of peace. I am happy that you are here. And if its in your nature to sometimes do the Vajrakilaya-thing, there are plenty of conceptual God-Egos still proclaiming a not really finished Realization to grind the axe upon. Water by the River

Yes, but no sane spiritual meditation system promotes nationalistic war. Only sick ones. And sick ones dont persist. That is not sustainable for a transcendence-oriented spiritual tradition. And that is what happened with Zen at war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War Because nationalistic war causes suffering and is not done because of love for the whole but only for a part, if at all.

I know you mean well. And from your writings (concerning waking up and the Absolute/Being) and behaviour (the deeper loving elements that shine through) you are enlightened in my perspective. And luckily you are here in this forum, holding up the flag of real Enlightenment and not just some preliminary awakenings, or even worse: just mere conceptual convictions/belief-systems. It would be a much darker place without you. But Enlightenment doesn't stop the Enlightened Ones to make errors in the relative realm (for example in drastic cases: Zen at war, Adi Da cult, endless list). Your judging of Awakening based on writings is at least in some cases not possible. In most cases one can see fast who knows what one is writing/talking about, and who doesn't. But it is not possible in all cases. Meditation time? Didn't count, but well over 10.000 hours in nearly 20 years. In the beginning mainly sitting, but soon taking it off the pillow with Mahamudra/Dzogchen. And the practice and being in these states continues, with a (much) higher focus and priority than studies/books. Just because it is the most beautiful and blissful activity I can engage in. So here we align also. As actually in nearly all points as soon as we actually start exchanging perspectives, and assumptions get reduced. Actual practice vs. books/theory: It was clear for me from very early on that only (!) meditation time counts, and time in certain awakened states. And the reading and books are just for enabling that, and for choosing the right system, and then actually practicing/doing it. That is why the main message in many posts I wrote is: practice. I read Ken Wilber when starting with all of that, and that is one of his main messages: Actual practice transforms, theory does not. You are unshakable in your True Essence and Being because you are in contact with That (or better the old "separate-you" has died into That) which is unmistaken always here and always true and never can change. You don't need any external validation on THAT. As I have written severeal times: Awake enough also here on this side to communicate from That and not need any external validation. No sources, no books, no authorities, no nothing required. But I think it makes sense to argue and debate ones perspective with what humanity has already tried, experienced and then also summarized in certain sources/traditions/practice systems. It flatters me that you assume I am smart enough to write the stuff I write without certain Awakenings and Realizations. I can assure you, I am not that smart. It is not that I just copy & paste this theory/books/sources without having the releveant experiences/awakenings to speak authentically from that. I agree that would be one of the worst, strange and harming things that one could do. We align in that attitude because I also debated the most obvious (and most narcissistic Ego=God cases) of that endeavour also. And my expression of THAT is different than yours, because It runs through my relative self and form, same as it does for you. You write you had the "wiring for Enlightenment". I agree. Most of us don't have it in such degree (including myself), and need effective views and practice-systems, and lots of practice. I believe that influences the way I write, on what, and how. I expect that I will tend to reduce my engagement in the "more-awakened-than-thou" dances & chuckles, because as written before I consider that at some point as some kind of "less-than-beneficial-activity" for everyone involved. Like I wrote many times, the best indicator for awakening is the conduct with which one lives ones life. The openness, love, non-suffering and grace that embodied awake Truth can enable. That shows more than anything else how much Truth has permeated the relative self. And having said that: I will speak more from the heart (although I sometimes tend to feel "ego-show-starts-here" doing that), but grant me some quoting/sources without falling out of grace in your perspective. Water by the River

No, It was in a normal company. I had regular business trips in the years following that in India, so it was interesting to see how it developed.

Hampi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampi Sinhagad Fort in Pune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhagad Gol Gumbaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Gumbaz And if you are there a few months, then the Lonely Planet up & down & back again. I worked in Pune for half a year at a time when the majority at traffic lights were bicycles nearly 20 years ago. Nowadays its a lot more scooters and cars, and much less bicycles in the big cities... Quite a lot of progress, but still shocking poverty and lots of slums. Yet the people are mostly very nice. Water by the River

Start speaking with your own words or you will be kicked out of here. I'm tired of seeing the stuff you've picked up from books. Speak from your own heart. This is why you aren't Awake yet. Because you got caught up in all the hoopla How do you know the way I write is not exactly the way I write from the heart? Maybe that is exactly my style, by personality, education and studies? (I know... ) Luckily the way how boundless, free and open my mindstream is is not defined by external evaluation. Be happy you got your own Awakening without decade-long meditation training. Including intensive studies of finding the right meditation tradition/practice for oneself, and comparing the paths across traditions for doing that. Others have been not so lucky. All I write would have been tremendously helpful for me back 10 years ago, especially the sources/quotes and references to books and other authors. The Tibetan Buddhists tend to avoid claiming and commenting on their realization, or that of others. They just say: The conduct with which one lives ones life, that is the best way to judge realization. Both at oneself and others. Life will point out with suffering any realization just claimed or imagined and not actualized. Is there anything "technically" incorrect in what I write? Any statements that you don't agree on besides "speak more from the heart" or speak/write subjectively? I agree with you on the value on writing/telling "from the heart". Yet, I also see the value of balancing that with the experiences of others, for example by quoting sources. And then finally, to quote a post from Soul: "Also, I'm not sure where you get the notion that you have any authority to determine what is or is not being awakened and who is or is not awakened. This isn't the first time you've said this to me and I suspect I'm not the only one you have said it to." And concluding with the words of Soul: I hope we don't have to go through this rhetorical dance again. Or one more dance & chuckle? Water by the River PS: Still awake just enough

Yes, there are quite many ways one can use the word Enlightenment when one knows where its aiming towards (Absolute Reality/Infinity Consciousness). There is only Suchness, or Infinite Consciousness, or Being, or whatever (put in a term/signifier of ones preference), or Raspberry (credit to Ralston on that one), and of course the mindstream of these beings (animals or babies) is nothing else... Buddha-Nature for the Buddhists.... Yet, I believe it makes sense for clarities sake to limit the signifier/term Enlightenment for a self-reflective being that once had a self-aware separate-self (ego) and transcended that in Enlightenment, and can now actually talk about it. I agree that the contemplation/self-inquiry-part should be done in the most direct and efficient manner, and also be communicated as such. I wrote extensively on these issues also. Yet, based on all I know and am aware of, my guess is that for 95%+ of people Enlightenment needs practice to gain awakened (nondual and empty) states. All spiritual systems are based on that. I needed a lot of practice in training in these states. Of course, ladies and gentlemen like Anandamayi Ma and Ramana and others got them delivered more or less free home. Yet, the teaching system of these "naturals" (often dis-emphasizing the training of awakened states, because they got them for free) is maybe not the most promising approach for the majority of people who don't get these awakened states delivered for free. The final end of spectrum is something like Tony Parsons "Just do nothing" approach. Which is actually the last stage in many systems, once awakened nondual states "run" on autopilot without any "artifical" actitvity of the separate-self. Nonmeditation Yoga in Mahamudra for example. But teaching only that is like teaching people the final 200 meters on how to climb K2, and then kick them out at base camp in summer cloths and without oxygen, and then wondering why they freeze and choke on the way to the summit and don't reach it. Selling Water by the River

For the majority (95%+) of cases I doubt that sober inquiry can do it. The "liftoff platform" for Enlightenment (the platform on which the accident of Enlightenment can happen) normally are awakened nondual and empty states. 95% is of course a rough estimation, but if asked and based on the contemprorary & historical cases I am aware of that would be my estimate. I don't agree on that. See Ken Wilber Pre- Trans-Confusion on the topic of babies. Animals are not enlightened, they are not even self-reflectively aware. Yet, these are beings that share the same Infinite Impersonal Consciousness that is the true essence of all of us. But anway, something has shifted for you, and that is wonderful. Enjoy it, and try to live from it. Selling Water by the River

You are right that Full Enlightenment can't be transmitted by words. Nor fully described. But it can be very well pointed to. The stages/states up until that can be described quite well, since duality has not broken down yet fully, and language can work with duality quite fine. Of course, if the referents of certain meditation experiences are not there yet, they have to be created/trained first. But they can be described in such a way that they can be recognized then. Maybe you find that perspective of Dr. Daniel Brown interesting. Quote from Pointing out the Great Way: "PUTTING MEDITATIVE EXPERIENCE INTO WORDS A good deal of Western scholarship on religion assumes that mystical experience is ineffable. Mystical states are said to be so profound that they are indescribable. This view is wrong. Rechungpa, a contemporary of the great Tibetan saint Milarepa, wrote an extremely detailed work on all the changes that occur in the body and mind at the moment of enlightenment. The most striking feature of his Clear Wisdom Mandmudra is the extreme technical precision used to describe internal states. As a tradition, Tibetan Buddhism is perhaps unique in the level of technical precision used to describe meditation experience; there is nothing comparable in Western mystical literature. Western mysticism largely has been restricted to individual practitioners, small groups, or time-limited movements, wherein the mystics either didn't express their spiritual attainments in much detail, or expressed these attainments in idiosyncratic ways according to their unique realizations and cultural context. Tibetan Buddhism, in contrast, is a highly organized lineage tradition that has been around since the seventh century, with Indian roots that go back much further. The early oral tradition spawned a loose but extensive network of itinerate practitioners who shared or traded teachings and specific spiritual exercises. The monastic tradition beginning in the eleventh century was characterized by tightly organized, stable communities of large groups of meditators who engaged in continuous dialogues about meditative attainments. They developed an elaborate inner science of spiritual development. During this period the technical language for spiritual development became more consensual, technically sophisticated, and refined as standards for discussing attainments developed. This body of technical knowledge was transmitted from generation to generation until the present day. The central problem then for the Western reader in understanding spiritual development in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is not its alleged ineffability but the opposite: namely, understanding the vast and sophisticated technical language of internal meditative experience. This book is designed to give the reader a precise map of internal meditative states." https://www.drdanielpbrown.com/buddhist-meditation-teacher In his dissertation, he translated single-handedly the main texts of Theravada-Buddhism, the Yoga-Sutras of Patanjali, and Mahamudra from their original languages, and looked for the deep structures "behind" all these systems. Excerpts from the summary of his dissertation in "Transformations of consciousness, chapter 8" "In this chapter, Daniel Brown addresses the second question by presenting an in-depth cartography of meditative stages drawn from three different traditions—the Tibetan Mahamudra, the Hindu Yogasutras, and the Theravada Vipassana (this cartogra-phy was subsequently cross-checked with other contemplative texts, Christian, Chinese, etc.). The results strongly suggest that the stages of meditation are in fact of cross-cultural and universal applicability at a deep, not surface, analysis)." Selling Water by the River

Guess Ralston would agree... "because enlightenment is truth, the reduction in suffering is just a side effect." And very much yes to that. If one thinks about it: Something has to rout beings home, and that mechanism is called suffering. NOT staying separate and in duality & happy ever after. And why should suffering continue when being back home? That suffering has to rout beings back home into non-separation is a Kosmic necessity/law of the highest degree, valid in each and all possible realms and dimensions. Spirit "casting itself out" in manifestation, and drawing itself back in again with the tool of suffering. Making (the illusion) of each separate-self-contraction/suffering (separation/duality) return home to the Unity (non-separation) of its True-being. Couldn't be different. Leaving beings "out" eternally in separation would be cruel... And: After having returned home to Enlightenment and non-separation, the individual perspective/soul doesn't stop to evolve and continues to other lives and other/higher possible forms of existences (maybe Leos Aliens?) Of course as a relative appearing phenomena, not as "Absolute Truth" or self-existing/separate-existing anything. Nirvana as extinction was a very early Buddhist dogma, and was replaced quite soon later (Mahayana, Vajrayana, Rainbow-body and so on...). It just does so in a non-separates non-identified way, knowing and understanding its True Nature and its unity with all of existence. Selling Water by the River

Yes. That is what I can confirm, and that sequence one can also find in every spiritual tradition. The bold parts of your text are excellent. Welcome home to a home you never left. What was your practice/path? The normal sequence is: 1. Practice (or just Karma/"luck". But I would estimate from what I have seen that for 90% it was practice). Efficient way: Meditation + psychedelics + integration work + many other things. 2. Many Awakenings (some traditions already call these Enlightenments)/ into stabilizing awakened nondual and empty/impersonal Awareness states: Into all these aspects (some aspects of Absolute Reality show up, like emptiness or nondual unity, love, timelessness, Infinity, and so on... But the separate-self is STILL yet not fully seen through). The separate-self gets more and more transcended, ones identity more and more empty and more like Pure Awareness, and then it gets nondual/unity with the whole visual field/manifestation. These Awakenings (field getting nondual and ones identity more and more just empty awareness) are normally caused by the practice that makes accident-prone. And then comes the accident that is called Enlightenment (that can't be willed, since that would be a spearate-self wanting that which is already the case, and by doing that covering it), and for which practice makes accident-prone. Enlightenment tends to happen for most only in very specific Awakened States (nondual/unity AND impersonal/empty). For that, I have written elsewhere (Mahamudra stage 3 (Awakened states of nondual and empty) "One Taste-Yoga" to Mahamudra stage 4 (stabilizing these states without doing anything) "Yoga of Nonmeditation). Bliss: These awakened states are already very blissful without needing external experience for that. 3. (Full/Basis/Great) Enlightenment into the True Nature of Oneself: Infinite Reality = Infinite limitless Impersonal and totally Empty Consciousness CONTAINING Infinite Manifestation, in an infinite Unity/Totality. The essence of every appearance/manifestation is the same Suchness as Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. A deep identity level shift, away from a separate-self to being aware that "one" is and always was the Totality/Infinite Reality/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. Phase 2 is gradual(!), Phase 3 (Shift of Full Enlightenment) is a sudden and complete understanding into the eternal and immortal nature/essence of all of Reality (limitless) and ones True Self (Awareness/Nothingness containing all manifestation). It can not be mistaken, is sure, doesn't need any external validation (understanding it by being it, and IT is infinite/all there is and can be). It is totally beyond "any further" and beyond any need for any confirmation. It is self-evident. This insight/understanding/realization is "more assured/ultimately assured" (beyond any chance for being shaken again) because anything else can only possibly just be more phenomenal arising (including any sensory-arising like visual arisings, but also including any other (I-)thoughts/concepts/I-feelings/n+1). Why? To quote Ralston: IT IS YOU. Infinite Consciousness containg any possible appearances. Limitless. Infinite. Any limit would appear in IT. Empty. Any arising (tree, thought, I-feeling, anything) appears IN IT. Impersonal (onself can be nothing specific or personal, since one contains it all). And its Pure Awareness (without any location, without any second) itself. Potentially unaware if nothing arises. But always right here, never can not not be here, independent of whatever happens/appears IN IT. It is waking up. Its essence is understanding that the separate-self as independent "anything" DOESN'T exist (just appears as illusion IN THAT), and never existed (was always an illusion), and can/will never exist (even if in another life illusions-arisings will occure again in ones True Being/Reality. The Awakenings (2) are insights/understandings into aspects/properties of the nature of Reality/True Self/Infinite Consciousness. That then evolves, towards nondual/unity awakened states. And THEN the final big shift of full Enligthenment can happen, in which the nature of Infinite Reality/Ones True Identity as Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Reality is revealed. 4. Stabiling this Enlightenment, and letting it reorient the character top-down and back again towards love/openness/staying in nondual impersonal Suchness ("BEING the Totality"). Even then still, the separate-self character can still hijack the show (peak, plateau, permanent), but the separate-self-character and its associated suffering has lost its mirage-like seductive power. Its essence (Suchness/Infinite consciousness) is immediately seen when feeling into it. And that holds true for all building blocks of the separate self. So lapsing after Enlightenment is just a hang-over from a long time of illusion , and once noticed any emerging separate-self-arisings can be killed/transcended by just looking into it. Bliss: A lot and growing, since the awakened states now get even more stabilized and are always accessible. When True Nature is known, and if the separate-self-character "hijacks" again the show: Just look into these arisings and realize again their essence as manifestation IN the Infinite Reality/Consciousness that one really is, and return to what one really is. While after (only) Awakening(s) (stage 2), certain elements of the separate-self-character are not seen fully through, or are NOT understood. One of the last stages is a very nebulous empty separate-"something" that is already in nondual unity with everything manifesting. But there is still an "Understander" or "a not yet fully understander" or some "seeker" -arisings there.... Roger Thisdell stage 4 vs. stage 5. Stage 4: stage 5: Maybe that is helpful for some. Please don't beat me. Selling Water by the River

Fine. I guess we can agree that the outcome of any contemplation should be: practice, practice, practice. Or: Finding out for oneself, so that one doesn't need any external authority. "I can only invite you to try the path I walked, and described in many posts (Mahamudra/Dzogchen, mainly Pointing out the Great Way), or any other path, and see for yourself. " Enlightenment is an accident. Practice makes accident-prone. 90% of the enlightened ones I am aware of (both contemporary and historically) had a rather long time of transcendence practice. Sure, around 10% I would estimate wake up without much practice (in this life). But do we know their Karma (part of which is "genetics"), past existences, and so on? Selling Water by the River

Wilber, "One Taste". And maybe start at the entries for march. And then "The Simple Feeling of Being" Selling Water by the River

hey, I have a new idea. Instead of referencing what others have said, I reference what I have already said: "I will continue posting mainly these old texts (because they show the universality of these realizations over the centuries). Sometimes telling about "ones own" experience is ok, but if one does it all the time, it can easily become self-importance boosting, or can come across as such." And to avoid hearsay is why I use quotes with sources. For the two feet: The nice thing is when one actually gets to realize what all texts and teachers are talking about, that then one can stand on ones own feet. It is exactly because of that that I find a high resonance with these texts & teachers I quote and refer to, and feel very much "at home" quoting them. There is no need for reinventing the wheel. There are many good wheels already. I do like finding the deep structure similiarities of the systems/pointers in an integral way. Because in choosing a path, I always looked for deep structure similiarities between the spiritual traditions. Maybe that is useful for some... Selling Water by the River

Infinity is not the same as infinite. Infinite = In-Finite. Not finite. Not measurable, nor any objective qualities. Szyper, Infinite Consciousness is a nice book on that topic, same as Dziuban, Consciousness is all. Infinity on the other side is something else. It is a class of mathematical objects: There are several classes of Infinity, even differently sized Infinites, some larger than others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor). Leo has nice videos on that. Infinity/Infinities (for example as worlds/realms/universes) are contained in in-finite consciousness, with in-finite consciousness as their essence. The Absolute is Infinite Impersonal Empty Consciousness/Awareness, in nondual union with all its limitless manifestations/apperances arising within it. In-finite consciousness. Or the abyss of Empty Impersonal Awareness/Consciousness, with no objective qualities (the eye can't see itself), but with the potential for Awareness. Your True Being. That can be realized as essence of onself, as essence of all of limitless reality, and at the core of every "other" sentient being. Normally it takes a long time of removing clouds of mistaken identity arisings covering ones essence. Maybe that is a bit useful. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Well, it is, like often, not either/or. How to integrate all these diferent perspectives? Even Full Enlightenment develops. The Awakenings before that also. Or as Ken Wilber said: From experience, to plateau, to permanent. Yet, Enlightenment is a decisive shift, or realizing/being/understanding for the first time fully the nature of ones True Being and of Reality. Daniel Brown, Pointing out the Great Way: PATH WALKING: ENHANCING THE REALIZATION [after Full Enlightenment] Just as certain conditions serve as obstacles to maintaining enlightenment, other conditions, properly understood, serve to enhance it. Theterm path walking (lam 'khyer) pertains to the type of lifestyle, behavior, and specific practices engaged in after enlightenment that serve to enhance and consolidate the realization as an enduring condition of mind.The term lam hhyer means "to walk along a path." A traveler who crosses over a mountain needs a plan for discovering the new territory. Likewise, the practitioner whose mind crosses over from seeming individual consciousness to the enlightened mind is more likely to stabilize and consolidate the realization with a plan for everyday behavior and activity. The path-walking instructions provide that plan." So again from peak to plateau to permanent. "Tashi Namgyel lists a variety of everyday situations that best serve to enhance the realization. These include when there is attachment to ordinary experience, when the practitioner is caught up in passion and hatred, when the practitioner is meditating and is finding it very difficult to settle the mind, and when the mind is so much at rest and happy in everyday life that he or she is less likely to recognize the real nature of idle thoughts (TN, pp. 619-20). The best time to practice is when there are passions (hhu phrig), and especially when these passions are intense (drag po; TN, p. 619). In short, any difficulties (dka ngal) encountered in everyday life become good vehicles for consolidating the realization, and the more intense the better. Awakening already brings a lot of bliss, but not yet all tools necessary to move towards freedom from suffering/psychological resistance. Basis-/Full-/Great Enlightenment (different names for different traditions, basically understanding/realizing what one really is and what Reality is) brings for the first time the possibility for sustaining bliss by dissolving progressively the hangover/remains of the separate self during/over(!) the following years/life-time. Awakening does not bring that potential yet fully, because there is still somebody who "awakens". And of course most remaining "hang-overs" of the separate-self will let themself know by what they do best: Causing suffering. But now, after Enlightenment, there is a tool available to work with what has not already been dissolved: Looking into their essence, AND into the being doing the looking. Even Ken Wilber said in the Interview-Audio series Kosmic Karma on the question of Tami Simons: Anybody 24/7 permanently in realization, including deep sleep, with zero lapse? Answer by Ken Wilber: A clear no. But that is not a bad thing. Enlightenment gives the chance the reorient the remaining character/body-mind fully (or as much as possible) during the rest of ones lifetime. And when the remaining character is not aligned or has a lapse and goes into separation again: clearly noticed by suffering. Suffering and fear reduce dramatically, and a door/method is opened up to progress towards dissolving what remains of bliss/fear/suffering, or the remaining character which is not yet fully aligned. Ken Wilber gave a description on the possible (longterm) enlightened outcomes, depening on the character. Ken Wilber, The Eye of Spirit, Chapter: The Eye of Spirit: Ken Wilber also wrote in "One Taste" that one can remain an enlightened jerk. Or that realized Dzogchen adepts are sometimes depicted as looking incredibly bored (seen IT, done with it). Nisargadatta smoked a lot until it finally killed him. Adi Da ran quite some cult. The list of less-than-integral Enlightenment-expressions is long.... But also the enlightened archetypes of the link above are possible. So it depends a lot on the personality that was there before Enlightenment. There seems to be a huge variability. And the soul ripens also after Enlightenment, over many lifetimes (Christopher Bache, LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven, Dustin DiPerna: Earth is Eden, and Jürgen Ziewe). Enlightenment is not the end of the soul, just the end of the "separate-soul". There seems to be a long path also afterwards, and not just the crude Nirvana-extinction-gameover of early Buddhism. Buddhism developed a lot towards that view in the following centuries/millenia (see Rainbow Body for example). Selling Water by the River

I like Snoopys perspective on these not so happy transitionings from this life to the next: ... and the end of suffering is possible, as stated by every spiritual tradition since millenia. Thousands of Realizers over the centuries stating that. And the recipe is transcending the illusion of the separate self-contraction, becoming the Nondual Totality/Reality, and then finding out what is aware of all of that... or the real You, Reality itself. And before talking about keeping that final Realization while being nailed at the cross, it is a good start maintaining some Awakening during everday life. There have been prominent cases who have had challenges with staying in the awakened perspective during these unfortunate transitions (Jesus on the cross “My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me"). But since the Real Nature of every being has no moving parts or anything else objective/material that could be "damaged", apparently "IT" didn't get damaged while suffering that procedure. Or any other of the lovely mishaps you mention. But Nightmares are possible in the dream for sure. IT never changes, because it is empty pure Impersonal Awareness itself without any core, mechanism or objective/material anything. And it is also all of manifested/imagined Reality in a nondual way. Worst case you can have is a nightmare. Although a veery realistic one. That is why Karma is so important: Its all a dream, but one can have a nightmare, and Karma works with mathematical precission. So, anyways, just take up some hopefully efficient practice and see for yourself concerning the topic of the end of suffering. Selling Water by the River

That is called Nihilism. Not Absolute Truth. And there is a difference between Relative Truth and Absolute Truth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine Selling Water by the River

Yes (the bold letters). The Real You. An Infinite silent eternal Abyss/Singularity of Infinite (empty and impersonal, or pure) Consciousness, being Infinite Reality/Existence itself, and containing all worlds and arisings/apperances in a nondual way, perceiving itself by itself. And once the separate-self-arisings parts of the human are gone (or known well and cut off fast enough), IT becomes stable. The functional part of the human/soul/individuality continues, even better than before, because it no longer suffers from a mistaken identity and the separate-self-contraction. Selling Water by the River

Beautiful! IT (what you describe, bold markings by me) is always right here, and can not be gone. Just temporarily clouded with containing/giving arising to the illusion-arisings of the self-contraction (certain I-thoughts and I-feelings). One can do perfectly fine without them, because most of them are just suffering. I am happy for you that you had this Awakening, insight and experience. That is a wonderful "place" to live ones life from. Water by the River PS: Just some further musings, not specifically intented as answer for you/your post, but also for others that maybe are a bit put off (or just dont really know what I mean by that) by my frequent mentioning of the Impersonal/Nonpersonal [or empty] Nature of Reality/Pure Primary Consciousness/Infinite Consciousness. I certainly would have been a few years ago. [IT/Infinite Reality (what you describe, bold markings by me) is always right here, and can not be gone. Just temporarily clouded with containing/giving arising to the illusion-arisings of the self-contraction (certain I-thoughts and I-feelings). One can do perfectly fine without them, because most of them are just suffering.] Yet, after waking up, the personal individuality/soul stays, though no longer being a separate-self, but an enlightened being in nondual unity with existence itself. Impersonal or non-personal is not bad at all (although it can sound scary in the beginning), but on the opposite: It allows for the full expression of ones individuality or soul-qualities, that now can finally flourish in nonduality, and are no in a contracted separate-ness, hampeing its flow and expression with suffering and other not so nice experiences. But instead expressing itself fully in the Infinite Existence/Reality that one really is then, containing in this perspective (of Indras Net/Reality itself) this individual soul and its expressions. It is like: Unenlightened Being/perspective = Absolute Reality + Individuality/soul + and separate-self arisings cutting Nonduality/Reality into two, creating suffering and/or boredom. Enlightened Being/perspective (or better woken up perspective in Indras Net, since the separate being has been transcended and replaced with Infinite Reality itself) = Absolute Reality + Individuality/soul (each perspective/being is different, have different traits and capacities and inclinations, even enlightened ones) + and no more separate-self arisings cutting Nonduality/Reality into two, but instead True Identity= Impersonal/Nonpersonal Infinite Reality + containing (transcended and intergrated) Individuality/soul, evolving further in this non-contracted state of being. Enlightenment is not the final end of the caterpillar-being (only of certain aspects of it (clouding mechanisms, separate-self-illusions), preventing it from being a butterfly), but just the beginning of the unique butterfly and its path, this life and the next...

Thanks for describing your experience. I do agree with that, based on my own experience. And thousands of others in all cultures and centuries described it like you do. That is a very important element of the path. It probably sounds quite a bit nuts, boring and strange. At least I would have interpreted it like that a few years ago... But that is exactly how the Impersonal (Silent/Pure/Empty) Infinite Consciousness perceives all of its manifestation in certain awakened nondual states, watching itself, perceiving itself, being itself and the world, by itself, for itself. (1) That starts to happen when the self-contraction/separate-self is seen through, transcended and cut off either with high enough speed & proficiency, or with some more energetic state-change techniques. So the resulting flow of bliss makes it no longer possible for any grasping/contracting thought/feeling-arising to grip & contract the focus/attention (and cut the nondual field into two, or duality), and create bad emotions/stop the flow of bliss. And motivating the separate-self with that resulting suffering again for searching or avoiding certain experiences to eradicate the suffering, and relax the contraction again. That process you describe is the natural way that leads the transition to the deep identity level change to ones True Nature, the Infinite Silent and peaceful/blissful Abyss of Pure Consciousness without location or any kind of objective appearance... When not finding IT (or Consciousness, or oneself), at some point the localization of consciousness dissolves, making every appearance (thought, feeling, cloud, tree, the whole world including ones "small self") just an appearance arising in the Infinite, silent & empty and not-personal Eternal Reality of Ones True Being, Infinite Consciousness, or Reality itself. (2) And when it is seen that even the "Understander" of this Nondual and Awake Realization is nothing more than a bundle of "understanding"-thoughts arising WITHIN THAT, then Full Enlightenment is finally seeing that there never was a separate-self besides an illusion, and nobody (besides) an Illusion actually woke up. Pure Infinite Consciousness/Being was there throughout, undisturbed, just containing some illusion-arisings. And yet, that Realization or waking up of that perspective of Indras Net makes all the difference in the dream of that perspective, finally dissolving the self-contraction/separate-self illusion even of the "Understander" of all of that for good. Selling Water by the River PS: (1) are the stages of dissolving the separate-self into nonduality, and (2) is going from Nonduality/Unity towards even relaxing/dissolving the "Understander"-separate-self-illusion of that into Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself. More on that in this post: PS PS: For Infinite Reality to create a separate-self/self-contraction/ego and to maintain it, there are just two emotions needed that have to regularly occur in cycles (not permanently, that would also kill the separate-self) : 1) suffering (in the meaning of non-satisfied-ness, or "non-bliss" , and 2) boredom. That starts all of the projects for getting back again the bliss via certain experiences (whatever that may be varies a lot). A bliss that would be there if not the separate-self-contraction would stop its flow via contracting. Of course, that can only be seen after having touched the natural bliss of ones True Being, because if that would be seen earlier the whole process would be shut off immediately. But if there is no technique available to just cut off the contraction/suffering, one has to stick to grasping for certain experiences, because that is then all one has...

Also on that I agree. Fully. As long as it is a fully enlightened Alien Consciousness on a stable basis. Imagine a little very happy and blissful Alien Consciousness, fully aware pretty much all of the time of its True Natrue, basking in the bliss of its True Nature. So lets go up the ladder of enlightened beings, and why the higher ones probably smile lovingly on the fully enlightened primitive human. One can have a fully enlightened human, and then a fully enlighened angel (or whatever one wants to call that), and even probably an fully enlightened planetary consciousness. Then fully enlightened Galaxy-Consciousness. Fully Enlightened= knows its True Nature, and that of all appearance, of all realms, all dimensions, of all that is possible. Short form: Knows Absolute Infinite Reality/Consciousness. The essence of all(!) possible realms/dimensions. And probably quite early above the Human level, full enlightenment is given or pre-requisite. See Christopher Baches "Diamond Light Lucidity Beings", LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven Then an enlightened entity (also a, although huge, enlightened perspective in Indras Net, encompassing holarchically many other perspectives, but not as dominant monad perspective, but as group holon, yet with its own agency) creating, maintaining and managing a Universe. An enlightened entity managing a group of Universes. For sure extremely Alien already here. Next: An enlightened entity containing, reflecting and managing an enlightened entity managing a group of Universes. Thinking about which kind of Dimension to create next. Next: An enlightened entity containing an infinity of the entities above, defining the charateristics of appearing universes so alien to ours that they would be barely reckognizeable. Next: An enlightened entity containing an infinity of the entities above, Next n+1, and the mathematical move of n towards infinity. That is a class of Infinity, and STILL not Infinite Absolute Reality. Still not all of Reality. Still not God. And now comes to kicker: A holarchie of enlighened beings upwards to infinity. That is btw. Ken Wilbers perspective (although he holds back): Holons upwards to infnity, and downwards (or we will never find the final quark/string, whatever). And what contains all of that? The INFINITE Absolute Reality/Consciousness. God. The Singularity that can very well be realized. Not on animal level, but starting here on human level on this lovely little planet of ours. Sure, there is nothing else to do until all of eternity than exploring exactly all the realms/dimensions/consciousnesses and so on. Hopefully in a fully enlightened way, basking in the bliss of True Nature. Maybe that helps getting an idea why yours truly is not too much grasping and suffering for certain insights/Awakenings going up that ladder towards Infinity and ever more Alien stuff (and giving up staying in True Nature/bliss while doing so). Health in an eco-system (or Holarchie) is also defined as functional fit: Knowing ones role/being/limitations, and having healthy exchanges on all levels of being, up and down the Holarchie. And there is plenty of juicy job-opportunities described in the ladder above, for all of eternity and every next life still yet to come. And on all levels, Empty Mirros are very welcome, see signature. Water by the River