Water by the River

Start speaking with your own words or you will be kicked out of here. I'm tired of seeing the stuff you've picked up from books. Speak from your own heart. This is why you aren't Awake yet. Because you got caught up in all the hoopla How do you know the way I write is not exactly the way I write from the heart? Maybe that is exactly my style, by personality, education and studies? (I know... ) Luckily the way how boundless, free and open my mindstream is is not defined by external evaluation. Be happy you got your own Awakening without decade-long meditation training. Including intensive studies of finding the right meditation tradition/practice for oneself, and comparing the paths across traditions for doing that. Others have been not so lucky. All I write would have been tremendously helpful for me back 10 years ago, especially the sources/quotes and references to books and other authors. The Tibetan Buddhists tend to avoid claiming and commenting on their realization, or that of others. They just say: The conduct with which one lives ones life, that is the best way to judge realization. Both at oneself and others. Life will point out with suffering any realization just claimed or imagined and not actualized. Is there anything "technically" incorrect in what I write? Any statements that you don't agree on besides "speak more from the heart" or speak/write subjectively? I agree with you on the value on writing/telling "from the heart". Yet, I also see the value of balancing that with the experiences of others, for example by quoting sources. And then finally, to quote a post from Soul: "Also, I'm not sure where you get the notion that you have any authority to determine what is or is not being awakened and who is or is not awakened. This isn't the first time you've said this to me and I suspect I'm not the only one you have said it to." And concluding with the words of Soul: I hope we don't have to go through this rhetorical dance again. Or one more dance & chuckle? Water by the River PS: Still awake just enough

Yes, there are quite many ways one can use the word Enlightenment when one knows where its aiming towards (Absolute Reality/Infinity Consciousness). There is only Suchness, or Infinite Consciousness, or Being, or whatever (put in a term/signifier of ones preference), or Raspberry (credit to Ralston on that one), and of course the mindstream of these beings (animals or babies) is nothing else... Buddha-Nature for the Buddhists.... Yet, I believe it makes sense for clarities sake to limit the signifier/term Enlightenment for a self-reflective being that once had a self-aware separate-self (ego) and transcended that in Enlightenment, and can now actually talk about it. I agree that the contemplation/self-inquiry-part should be done in the most direct and efficient manner, and also be communicated as such. I wrote extensively on these issues also. Yet, based on all I know and am aware of, my guess is that for 95%+ of people Enlightenment needs practice to gain awakened (nondual and empty) states. All spiritual systems are based on that. I needed a lot of practice in training in these states. Of course, ladies and gentlemen like Anandamayi Ma and Ramana and others got them delivered more or less free home. Yet, the teaching system of these "naturals" (often dis-emphasizing the training of awakened states, because they got them for free) is maybe not the most promising approach for the majority of people who don't get these awakened states delivered for free. The final end of spectrum is something like Tony Parsons "Just do nothing" approach. Which is actually the last stage in many systems, once awakened nondual states "run" on autopilot without any "artifical" actitvity of the separate-self. Nonmeditation Yoga in Mahamudra for example. But teaching only that is like teaching people the final 200 meters on how to climb K2, and then kick them out at base camp in summer cloths and without oxygen, and then wondering why they freeze and choke on the way to the summit and don't reach it. Selling Water by the River

For the majority (95%+) of cases I doubt that sober inquiry can do it. The "liftoff platform" for Enlightenment (the platform on which the accident of Enlightenment can happen) normally are awakened nondual and empty states. 95% is of course a rough estimation, but if asked and based on the contemprorary & historical cases I am aware of that would be my estimate. I don't agree on that. See Ken Wilber Pre- Trans-Confusion on the topic of babies. Animals are not enlightened, they are not even self-reflectively aware. Yet, these are beings that share the same Infinite Impersonal Consciousness that is the true essence of all of us. But anway, something has shifted for you, and that is wonderful. Enjoy it, and try to live from it. Selling Water by the River

You are right that Full Enlightenment can't be transmitted by words. Nor fully described. But it can be very well pointed to. The stages/states up until that can be described quite well, since duality has not broken down yet fully, and language can work with duality quite fine. Of course, if the referents of certain meditation experiences are not there yet, they have to be created/trained first. But they can be described in such a way that they can be recognized then. Maybe you find that perspective of Dr. Daniel Brown interesting. Quote from Pointing out the Great Way: "PUTTING MEDITATIVE EXPERIENCE INTO WORDS A good deal of Western scholarship on religion assumes that mystical experience is ineffable. Mystical states are said to be so profound that they are indescribable. This view is wrong. Rechungpa, a contemporary of the great Tibetan saint Milarepa, wrote an extremely detailed work on all the changes that occur in the body and mind at the moment of enlightenment. The most striking feature of his Clear Wisdom Mandmudra is the extreme technical precision used to describe internal states. As a tradition, Tibetan Buddhism is perhaps unique in the level of technical precision used to describe meditation experience; there is nothing comparable in Western mystical literature. Western mysticism largely has been restricted to individual practitioners, small groups, or time-limited movements, wherein the mystics either didn't express their spiritual attainments in much detail, or expressed these attainments in idiosyncratic ways according to their unique realizations and cultural context. Tibetan Buddhism, in contrast, is a highly organized lineage tradition that has been around since the seventh century, with Indian roots that go back much further. The early oral tradition spawned a loose but extensive network of itinerate practitioners who shared or traded teachings and specific spiritual exercises. The monastic tradition beginning in the eleventh century was characterized by tightly organized, stable communities of large groups of meditators who engaged in continuous dialogues about meditative attainments. They developed an elaborate inner science of spiritual development. During this period the technical language for spiritual development became more consensual, technically sophisticated, and refined as standards for discussing attainments developed. This body of technical knowledge was transmitted from generation to generation until the present day. The central problem then for the Western reader in understanding spiritual development in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is not its alleged ineffability but the opposite: namely, understanding the vast and sophisticated technical language of internal meditative experience. This book is designed to give the reader a precise map of internal meditative states." https://www.drdanielpbrown.com/buddhist-meditation-teacher In his dissertation, he translated single-handedly the main texts of Theravada-Buddhism, the Yoga-Sutras of Patanjali, and Mahamudra from their original languages, and looked for the deep structures "behind" all these systems. Excerpts from the summary of his dissertation in "Transformations of consciousness, chapter 8" "In this chapter, Daniel Brown addresses the second question by presenting an in-depth cartography of meditative stages drawn from three different traditions—the Tibetan Mahamudra, the Hindu Yogasutras, and the Theravada Vipassana (this cartogra-phy was subsequently cross-checked with other contemplative texts, Christian, Chinese, etc.). The results strongly suggest that the stages of meditation are in fact of cross-cultural and universal applicability at a deep, not surface, analysis)." Selling Water by the River

Guess Ralston would agree... "because enlightenment is truth, the reduction in suffering is just a side effect." And very much yes to that. If one thinks about it: Something has to rout beings home, and that mechanism is called suffering. NOT staying separate and in duality & happy ever after. And why should suffering continue when being back home? That suffering has to rout beings back home into non-separation is a Kosmic necessity/law of the highest degree, valid in each and all possible realms and dimensions. Spirit "casting itself out" in manifestation, and drawing itself back in again with the tool of suffering. Making (the illusion) of each separate-self-contraction/suffering (separation/duality) return home to the Unity (non-separation) of its True-being. Couldn't be different. Leaving beings "out" eternally in separation would be cruel... And: After having returned home to Enlightenment and non-separation, the individual perspective/soul doesn't stop to evolve and continues to other lives and other/higher possible forms of existences (maybe Leos Aliens?) Of course as a relative appearing phenomena, not as "Absolute Truth" or self-existing/separate-existing anything. Nirvana as extinction was a very early Buddhist dogma, and was replaced quite soon later (Mahayana, Vajrayana, Rainbow-body and so on...). It just does so in a non-separates non-identified way, knowing and understanding its True Nature and its unity with all of existence. Selling Water by the River

Yes. That is what I can confirm, and that sequence one can also find in every spiritual tradition. The bold parts of your text are excellent. Welcome home to a home you never left. What was your practice/path? The normal sequence is: 1. Practice (or just Karma/"luck". But I would estimate from what I have seen that for 90% it was practice). Efficient way: Meditation + psychedelics + integration work + many other things. 2. Many Awakenings (some traditions already call these Enlightenments)/ into stabilizing awakened nondual and empty/impersonal Awareness states: Into all these aspects (some aspects of Absolute Reality show up, like emptiness or nondual unity, love, timelessness, Infinity, and so on... But the separate-self is STILL yet not fully seen through). The separate-self gets more and more transcended, ones identity more and more empty and more like Pure Awareness, and then it gets nondual/unity with the whole visual field/manifestation. These Awakenings (field getting nondual and ones identity more and more just empty awareness) are normally caused by the practice that makes accident-prone. And then comes the accident that is called Enlightenment (that can't be willed, since that would be a spearate-self wanting that which is already the case, and by doing that covering it), and for which practice makes accident-prone. Enlightenment tends to happen for most only in very specific Awakened States (nondual/unity AND impersonal/empty). For that, I have written elsewhere (Mahamudra stage 3 (Awakened states of nondual and empty) "One Taste-Yoga" to Mahamudra stage 4 (stabilizing these states without doing anything) "Yoga of Nonmeditation). Bliss: These awakened states are already very blissful without needing external experience for that. 3. (Full/Basis/Great) Enlightenment into the True Nature of Oneself: Infinite Reality = Infinite limitless Impersonal and totally Empty Consciousness CONTAINING Infinite Manifestation, in an infinite Unity/Totality. The essence of every appearance/manifestation is the same Suchness as Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. A deep identity level shift, away from a separate-self to being aware that "one" is and always was the Totality/Infinite Reality/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. Phase 2 is gradual(!), Phase 3 (Shift of Full Enlightenment) is a sudden and complete understanding into the eternal and immortal nature/essence of all of Reality (limitless) and ones True Self (Awareness/Nothingness containing all manifestation). It can not be mistaken, is sure, doesn't need any external validation (understanding it by being it, and IT is infinite/all there is and can be). It is totally beyond "any further" and beyond any need for any confirmation. It is self-evident. This insight/understanding/realization is "more assured/ultimately assured" (beyond any chance for being shaken again) because anything else can only possibly just be more phenomenal arising (including any sensory-arising like visual arisings, but also including any other (I-)thoughts/concepts/I-feelings/n+1). Why? To quote Ralston: IT IS YOU. Infinite Consciousness containg any possible appearances. Limitless. Infinite. Any limit would appear in IT. Empty. Any arising (tree, thought, I-feeling, anything) appears IN IT. Impersonal (onself can be nothing specific or personal, since one contains it all). And its Pure Awareness (without any location, without any second) itself. Potentially unaware if nothing arises. But always right here, never can not not be here, independent of whatever happens/appears IN IT. It is waking up. Its essence is understanding that the separate-self as independent "anything" DOESN'T exist (just appears as illusion IN THAT), and never existed (was always an illusion), and can/will never exist (even if in another life illusions-arisings will occure again in ones True Being/Reality. The Awakenings (2) are insights/understandings into aspects/properties of the nature of Reality/True Self/Infinite Consciousness. That then evolves, towards nondual/unity awakened states. And THEN the final big shift of full Enligthenment can happen, in which the nature of Infinite Reality/Ones True Identity as Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Reality is revealed. 4. Stabiling this Enlightenment, and letting it reorient the character top-down and back again towards love/openness/staying in nondual impersonal Suchness ("BEING the Totality"). Even then still, the separate-self character can still hijack the show (peak, plateau, permanent), but the separate-self-character and its associated suffering has lost its mirage-like seductive power. Its essence (Suchness/Infinite consciousness) is immediately seen when feeling into it. And that holds true for all building blocks of the separate self. So lapsing after Enlightenment is just a hang-over from a long time of illusion , and once noticed any emerging separate-self-arisings can be killed/transcended by just looking into it. Bliss: A lot and growing, since the awakened states now get even more stabilized and are always accessible. When True Nature is known, and if the separate-self-character "hijacks" again the show: Just look into these arisings and realize again their essence as manifestation IN the Infinite Reality/Consciousness that one really is, and return to what one really is. While after (only) Awakening(s) (stage 2), certain elements of the separate-self-character are not seen fully through, or are NOT understood. One of the last stages is a very nebulous empty separate-"something" that is already in nondual unity with everything manifesting. But there is still an "Understander" or "a not yet fully understander" or some "seeker" -arisings there.... Roger Thisdell stage 4 vs. stage 5. Stage 4: stage 5: Maybe that is helpful for some. Please don't beat me. Selling Water by the River

Fine. I guess we can agree that the outcome of any contemplation should be: practice, practice, practice. Or: Finding out for oneself, so that one doesn't need any external authority. "I can only invite you to try the path I walked, and described in many posts (Mahamudra/Dzogchen, mainly Pointing out the Great Way), or any other path, and see for yourself. " Enlightenment is an accident. Practice makes accident-prone. 90% of the enlightened ones I am aware of (both contemporary and historically) had a rather long time of transcendence practice. Sure, around 10% I would estimate wake up without much practice (in this life). But do we know their Karma (part of which is "genetics"), past existences, and so on? Selling Water by the River

Wilber, "One Taste". And maybe start at the entries for march. And then "The Simple Feeling of Being" Selling Water by the River

hey, I have a new idea. Instead of referencing what others have said, I reference what I have already said: "I will continue posting mainly these old texts (because they show the universality of these realizations over the centuries). Sometimes telling about "ones own" experience is ok, but if one does it all the time, it can easily become self-importance boosting, or can come across as such." And to avoid hearsay is why I use quotes with sources. For the two feet: The nice thing is when one actually gets to realize what all texts and teachers are talking about, that then one can stand on ones own feet. It is exactly because of that that I find a high resonance with these texts & teachers I quote and refer to, and feel very much "at home" quoting them. There is no need for reinventing the wheel. There are many good wheels already. I do like finding the deep structure similiarities of the systems/pointers in an integral way. Because in choosing a path, I always looked for deep structure similiarities between the spiritual traditions. Maybe that is useful for some... Selling Water by the River

Infinity is not the same as infinite. Infinite = In-Finite. Not finite. Not measurable, nor any objective qualities. Szyper, Infinite Consciousness is a nice book on that topic, same as Dziuban, Consciousness is all. Infinity on the other side is something else. It is a class of mathematical objects: There are several classes of Infinity, even differently sized Infinites, some larger than others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor). Leo has nice videos on that. Infinity/Infinities (for example as worlds/realms/universes) are contained in in-finite consciousness, with in-finite consciousness as their essence. The Absolute is Infinite Impersonal Empty Consciousness/Awareness, in nondual union with all its limitless manifestations/apperances arising within it. In-finite consciousness. Or the abyss of Empty Impersonal Awareness/Consciousness, with no objective qualities (the eye can't see itself), but with the potential for Awareness. Your True Being. That can be realized as essence of onself, as essence of all of limitless reality, and at the core of every "other" sentient being. Normally it takes a long time of removing clouds of mistaken identity arisings covering ones essence. Maybe that is a bit useful. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Well, it is, like often, not either/or. How to integrate all these diferent perspectives? Even Full Enlightenment develops. The Awakenings before that also. Or as Ken Wilber said: From experience, to plateau, to permanent. Yet, Enlightenment is a decisive shift, or realizing/being/understanding for the first time fully the nature of ones True Being and of Reality. Daniel Brown, Pointing out the Great Way: PATH WALKING: ENHANCING THE REALIZATION [after Full Enlightenment] Just as certain conditions serve as obstacles to maintaining enlightenment, other conditions, properly understood, serve to enhance it. Theterm path walking (lam 'khyer) pertains to the type of lifestyle, behavior, and specific practices engaged in after enlightenment that serve to enhance and consolidate the realization as an enduring condition of mind.The term lam hhyer means "to walk along a path." A traveler who crosses over a mountain needs a plan for discovering the new territory. Likewise, the practitioner whose mind crosses over from seeming individual consciousness to the enlightened mind is more likely to stabilize and consolidate the realization with a plan for everyday behavior and activity. The path-walking instructions provide that plan." So again from peak to plateau to permanent. "Tashi Namgyel lists a variety of everyday situations that best serve to enhance the realization. These include when there is attachment to ordinary experience, when the practitioner is caught up in passion and hatred, when the practitioner is meditating and is finding it very difficult to settle the mind, and when the mind is so much at rest and happy in everyday life that he or she is less likely to recognize the real nature of idle thoughts (TN, pp. 619-20). The best time to practice is when there are passions (hhu phrig), and especially when these passions are intense (drag po; TN, p. 619). In short, any difficulties (dka ngal) encountered in everyday life become good vehicles for consolidating the realization, and the more intense the better. Awakening already brings a lot of bliss, but not yet all tools necessary to move towards freedom from suffering/psychological resistance. Basis-/Full-/Great Enlightenment (different names for different traditions, basically understanding/realizing what one really is and what Reality is) brings for the first time the possibility for sustaining bliss by dissolving progressively the hangover/remains of the separate self during/over(!) the following years/life-time. Awakening does not bring that potential yet fully, because there is still somebody who "awakens". And of course most remaining "hang-overs" of the separate-self will let themself know by what they do best: Causing suffering. But now, after Enlightenment, there is a tool available to work with what has not already been dissolved: Looking into their essence, AND into the being doing the looking. Even Ken Wilber said in the Interview-Audio series Kosmic Karma on the question of Tami Simons: Anybody 24/7 permanently in realization, including deep sleep, with zero lapse? Answer by Ken Wilber: A clear no. But that is not a bad thing. Enlightenment gives the chance the reorient the remaining character/body-mind fully (or as much as possible) during the rest of ones lifetime. And when the remaining character is not aligned or has a lapse and goes into separation again: clearly noticed by suffering. Suffering and fear reduce dramatically, and a door/method is opened up to progress towards dissolving what remains of bliss/fear/suffering, or the remaining character which is not yet fully aligned. Ken Wilber gave a description on the possible (longterm) enlightened outcomes, depening on the character. Ken Wilber, The Eye of Spirit, Chapter: The Eye of Spirit: Ken Wilber also wrote in "One Taste" that one can remain an enlightened jerk. Or that realized Dzogchen adepts are sometimes depicted as looking incredibly bored (seen IT, done with it). Nisargadatta smoked a lot until it finally killed him. Adi Da ran quite some cult. The list of less-than-integral Enlightenment-expressions is long.... But also the enlightened archetypes of the link above are possible. So it depends a lot on the personality that was there before Enlightenment. There seems to be a huge variability. And the soul ripens also after Enlightenment, over many lifetimes (Christopher Bache, LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven, Dustin DiPerna: Earth is Eden, and Jürgen Ziewe). Enlightenment is not the end of the soul, just the end of the "separate-soul". There seems to be a long path also afterwards, and not just the crude Nirvana-extinction-gameover of early Buddhism. Buddhism developed a lot towards that view in the following centuries/millenia (see Rainbow Body for example). Selling Water by the River

I like Snoopys perspective on these not so happy transitionings from this life to the next: ... and the end of suffering is possible, as stated by every spiritual tradition since millenia. Thousands of Realizers over the centuries stating that. And the recipe is transcending the illusion of the separate self-contraction, becoming the Nondual Totality/Reality, and then finding out what is aware of all of that... or the real You, Reality itself. And before talking about keeping that final Realization while being nailed at the cross, it is a good start maintaining some Awakening during everday life. There have been prominent cases who have had challenges with staying in the awakened perspective during these unfortunate transitions (Jesus on the cross “My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me"). But since the Real Nature of every being has no moving parts or anything else objective/material that could be "damaged", apparently "IT" didn't get damaged while suffering that procedure. Or any other of the lovely mishaps you mention. But Nightmares are possible in the dream for sure. IT never changes, because it is empty pure Impersonal Awareness itself without any core, mechanism or objective/material anything. And it is also all of manifested/imagined Reality in a nondual way. Worst case you can have is a nightmare. Although a veery realistic one. That is why Karma is so important: Its all a dream, but one can have a nightmare, and Karma works with mathematical precission. So, anyways, just take up some hopefully efficient practice and see for yourself concerning the topic of the end of suffering. Selling Water by the River

That is called Nihilism. Not Absolute Truth. And there is a difference between Relative Truth and Absolute Truth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine Selling Water by the River

Yes (the bold letters). The Real You. An Infinite silent eternal Abyss/Singularity of Infinite (empty and impersonal, or pure) Consciousness, being Infinite Reality/Existence itself, and containing all worlds and arisings/apperances in a nondual way, perceiving itself by itself. And once the separate-self-arisings parts of the human are gone (or known well and cut off fast enough), IT becomes stable. The functional part of the human/soul/individuality continues, even better than before, because it no longer suffers from a mistaken identity and the separate-self-contraction. Selling Water by the River

Beautiful! IT (what you describe, bold markings by me) is always right here, and can not be gone. Just temporarily clouded with containing/giving arising to the illusion-arisings of the self-contraction (certain I-thoughts and I-feelings). One can do perfectly fine without them, because most of them are just suffering. I am happy for you that you had this Awakening, insight and experience. That is a wonderful "place" to live ones life from. Water by the River PS: Just some further musings, not specifically intented as answer for you/your post, but also for others that maybe are a bit put off (or just dont really know what I mean by that) by my frequent mentioning of the Impersonal/Nonpersonal [or empty] Nature of Reality/Pure Primary Consciousness/Infinite Consciousness. I certainly would have been a few years ago. [IT/Infinite Reality (what you describe, bold markings by me) is always right here, and can not be gone. Just temporarily clouded with containing/giving arising to the illusion-arisings of the self-contraction (certain I-thoughts and I-feelings). One can do perfectly fine without them, because most of them are just suffering.] Yet, after waking up, the personal individuality/soul stays, though no longer being a separate-self, but an enlightened being in nondual unity with existence itself. Impersonal or non-personal is not bad at all (although it can sound scary in the beginning), but on the opposite: It allows for the full expression of ones individuality or soul-qualities, that now can finally flourish in nonduality, and are no in a contracted separate-ness, hampeing its flow and expression with suffering and other not so nice experiences. But instead expressing itself fully in the Infinite Existence/Reality that one really is then, containing in this perspective (of Indras Net/Reality itself) this individual soul and its expressions. It is like: Unenlightened Being/perspective = Absolute Reality + Individuality/soul + and separate-self arisings cutting Nonduality/Reality into two, creating suffering and/or boredom. Enlightened Being/perspective (or better woken up perspective in Indras Net, since the separate being has been transcended and replaced with Infinite Reality itself) = Absolute Reality + Individuality/soul (each perspective/being is different, have different traits and capacities and inclinations, even enlightened ones) + and no more separate-self arisings cutting Nonduality/Reality into two, but instead True Identity= Impersonal/Nonpersonal Infinite Reality + containing (transcended and intergrated) Individuality/soul, evolving further in this non-contracted state of being. Enlightenment is not the final end of the caterpillar-being (only of certain aspects of it (clouding mechanisms, separate-self-illusions), preventing it from being a butterfly), but just the beginning of the unique butterfly and its path, this life and the next...

Thanks for describing your experience. I do agree with that, based on my own experience. And thousands of others in all cultures and centuries described it like you do. That is a very important element of the path. It probably sounds quite a bit nuts, boring and strange. At least I would have interpreted it like that a few years ago... But that is exactly how the Impersonal (Silent/Pure/Empty) Infinite Consciousness perceives all of its manifestation in certain awakened nondual states, watching itself, perceiving itself, being itself and the world, by itself, for itself. (1) That starts to happen when the self-contraction/separate-self is seen through, transcended and cut off either with high enough speed & proficiency, or with some more energetic state-change techniques. So the resulting flow of bliss makes it no longer possible for any grasping/contracting thought/feeling-arising to grip & contract the focus/attention (and cut the nondual field into two, or duality), and create bad emotions/stop the flow of bliss. And motivating the separate-self with that resulting suffering again for searching or avoiding certain experiences to eradicate the suffering, and relax the contraction again. That process you describe is the natural way that leads the transition to the deep identity level change to ones True Nature, the Infinite Silent and peaceful/blissful Abyss of Pure Consciousness without location or any kind of objective appearance... When not finding IT (or Consciousness, or oneself), at some point the localization of consciousness dissolves, making every appearance (thought, feeling, cloud, tree, the whole world including ones "small self") just an appearance arising in the Infinite, silent & empty and not-personal Eternal Reality of Ones True Being, Infinite Consciousness, or Reality itself. (2) And when it is seen that even the "Understander" of this Nondual and Awake Realization is nothing more than a bundle of "understanding"-thoughts arising WITHIN THAT, then Full Enlightenment is finally seeing that there never was a separate-self besides an illusion, and nobody (besides) an Illusion actually woke up. Pure Infinite Consciousness/Being was there throughout, undisturbed, just containing some illusion-arisings. And yet, that Realization or waking up of that perspective of Indras Net makes all the difference in the dream of that perspective, finally dissolving the self-contraction/separate-self illusion even of the "Understander" of all of that for good. Selling Water by the River PS: (1) are the stages of dissolving the separate-self into nonduality, and (2) is going from Nonduality/Unity towards even relaxing/dissolving the "Understander"-separate-self-illusion of that into Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself. More on that in this post: PS PS: For Infinite Reality to create a separate-self/self-contraction/ego and to maintain it, there are just two emotions needed that have to regularly occur in cycles (not permanently, that would also kill the separate-self) : 1) suffering (in the meaning of non-satisfied-ness, or "non-bliss" , and 2) boredom. That starts all of the projects for getting back again the bliss via certain experiences (whatever that may be varies a lot). A bliss that would be there if not the separate-self-contraction would stop its flow via contracting. Of course, that can only be seen after having touched the natural bliss of ones True Being, because if that would be seen earlier the whole process would be shut off immediately. But if there is no technique available to just cut off the contraction/suffering, one has to stick to grasping for certain experiences, because that is then all one has...

Also on that I agree. Fully. As long as it is a fully enlightened Alien Consciousness on a stable basis. Imagine a little very happy and blissful Alien Consciousness, fully aware pretty much all of the time of its True Natrue, basking in the bliss of its True Nature. So lets go up the ladder of enlightened beings, and why the higher ones probably smile lovingly on the fully enlightened primitive human. One can have a fully enlightened human, and then a fully enlighened angel (or whatever one wants to call that), and even probably an fully enlightened planetary consciousness. Then fully enlightened Galaxy-Consciousness. Fully Enlightened= knows its True Nature, and that of all appearance, of all realms, all dimensions, of all that is possible. Short form: Knows Absolute Infinite Reality/Consciousness. The essence of all(!) possible realms/dimensions. And probably quite early above the Human level, full enlightenment is given or pre-requisite. See Christopher Baches "Diamond Light Lucidity Beings", LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven Then an enlightened entity (also a, although huge, enlightened perspective in Indras Net, encompassing holarchically many other perspectives, but not as dominant monad perspective, but as group holon, yet with its own agency) creating, maintaining and managing a Universe. An enlightened entity managing a group of Universes. For sure extremely Alien already here. Next: An enlightened entity containing, reflecting and managing an enlightened entity managing a group of Universes. Thinking about which kind of Dimension to create next. Next: An enlightened entity containing an infinity of the entities above, defining the charateristics of appearing universes so alien to ours that they would be barely reckognizeable. Next: An enlightened entity containing an infinity of the entities above, Next n+1, and the mathematical move of n towards infinity. That is a class of Infinity, and STILL not Infinite Absolute Reality. Still not all of Reality. Still not God. And now comes to kicker: A holarchie of enlighened beings upwards to infinity. That is btw. Ken Wilbers perspective (although he holds back): Holons upwards to infnity, and downwards (or we will never find the final quark/string, whatever). And what contains all of that? The INFINITE Absolute Reality/Consciousness. God. The Singularity that can very well be realized. Not on animal level, but starting here on human level on this lovely little planet of ours. Sure, there is nothing else to do until all of eternity than exploring exactly all the realms/dimensions/consciousnesses and so on. Hopefully in a fully enlightened way, basking in the bliss of True Nature. Maybe that helps getting an idea why yours truly is not too much grasping and suffering for certain insights/Awakenings going up that ladder towards Infinity and ever more Alien stuff (and giving up staying in True Nature/bliss while doing so). Health in an eco-system (or Holarchie) is also defined as functional fit: Knowing ones role/being/limitations, and having healthy exchanges on all levels of being, up and down the Holarchie. And there is plenty of juicy job-opportunities described in the ladder above, for all of eternity and every next life still yet to come. And on all levels, Empty Mirros are very welcome, see signature. Water by the River

That is true. Yet a stage can be defined as a structure, which means a certain probability distribution of states, which means that a certain states appears more often or pre-dominantly, or in a certain structure. For that, see Chaos Theory and Structuralism. If there is a pattern/probability distribution to it (like certain states most of the time), it can be called a stage. Yet, its not a "hard" thing where only one state can appear. There is also appearance of "higher", "lower" or just other states (or configurations of the system, see Chaos theory) possible, and yet an overall structure to the probability distribution of the states can be soon. When a certain developmental order of these structures/stages of state-probability-distributions can be seen, the stages align across a development structure, or ladder of stages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory Water by the River

I agree with that. And all of these "other dimensions of transhuman consciousness" also exist and appear WITHIN Infinite Absolute Reality, with is "essence" "made out of" that besides which nothing else exists: Infinite Absolute Reality. Ex-ist = stand out from. Or Appearance. Or imagined. And I assume it is not just a whole dimension of transhuman consciousness, but an Infinity of them, n+1. So it probably won't get boring anytime soon. And why not visit and explore some of them. Water by the River

Agreed. Well, let me think. Since it says in your signature its already you, it can not be me. Water by the River

I only say that because I've never encountered a human spiritual teacher who teaches it. It's unheard of. Which is why I am vocal about it. Why should I be vocal about Buddhism when everyone already knows about it? The point of talking, for me, is to say new things. Not to rehash old ground. I agree that's highly valuable. From the perspective of understanding Consciousness -- which is my highest concern -- unhealthy consequences are irrelevant. However, I am not oblivious to unhealthy consequences and of course I would like to minimize those for my followers. I do place understanding of reality above the transcending of suffering. That's a core feature of my style of spirituality. Understanding above everything else. Everyone is free to pursue their own spiritual priorities. I have chosen mine and for it I have paid serious costs which you guys don't even know about. I have permanent scars and damage across my body from my pursuit of the highest understanding. And maybe one day it will kill me. If you understood the levels of danger I have toyed with, you would be horrified. You guys only know half of what I've done to gain my understanding. Yes, you are a pioneer, and that is your Karma. Or if one doesn't like the word Karma, your tendencies and motivations for this life. Which is absolutely wonderful. I appreciate the wisdom in your post above. Not every being can strive in this life for climbing the peaks of the Multiverse of Realities. Just the same as not everyone will climb Mount Everest in this life. Yet, even the hobby-mountaneers can get very blissful on their path, and will enjoy the tales and views the pioneers will bring along from the Mount Everests of this Reality. And if the the Mount-Everest-Pioneers don't recommend the Mount-Everest as best & most valueable endevour in this life, not more than necessary hobby-mountaneers will suffer and possible fall trying to climb Mount Everest. The nature and inherent bliss of Absolute Reality can also be realized in the valley. Water by the River PS: Nisargadatta once said to Steven Wolinsky: You have won the grace of your True Nature. I assume you have done the same as pioneer, and you deserve the healing & love that Reality holds for all its beings. Get well soon.

It is super-technical. Like the Eskimo have hundreds of words for snow, the Tibetans have hundreds of different technical terms for meditation-exerpiences, stages and views. Zen is very anti-intellectual (and correct in so far that being too conceptual can also be a trap), but I always found that a bit... annoying. Until I got what they point to. Then that got nice again. Frog pond plop. For me it made intuitive sense that a more complex and sophisticated meditation-system would be faster, but also more difficult to learn & explain. Like the axe and the forest-harvester-example. The less complex methods are more robust (do it long enough and it will work, but are also boring & annoying "die on the pillow"), while the more complex methods get pleasant faster ("killing me softly on&off the pillow). And we all know if the axes or forest-harvesters are used nowadays. So I see the future more in systems like Mahamudra & Dzogchen. So lets see how it all develops... Water by the River

Allow me some further musings on the topic. In stage 3 Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual), Nonduality starts showing up. But Nonduality is not Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, because one can be in nondual Unity and still think that one is an "enlightened person", or any other crappy concept or self-identity for that matter. The ripening of Nonduality goes from stage 3 Yoga of One Taste to stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. Nonmeditation, because the meditation has become so automized that the need for any separate-self agency feeling doing anything is no longer necessary and is discarded and also cut off. And then one is accident-prone to the possible accident of Enlightenment, Impersonal Infinite Consciousness realizing itself. At that stage, doing anything is just creating another cloud hiding the sun of ones true being, because doing anything would be another thougt/feeling-movement in Infinite Consciousness/Mind/Reality. And psychedelics are very nice for helping the whole process, and for exploring the Multiverse and other interesting stuff. But for transcending the last subtle separate-self-identity-arisings (subtle separate-self thoughts and feelings), and cutting off the sometimes arisings-non-bliss-feeling-bad-arisings (in other words: suffering) that are a part of the separate-self-package, I have yet to see one case (just a single one would be very interesting) where that has been done mainly on a stable basis/outcome in daily life with only psychedelics. That can be very well had with meditation practice. Meditation: Actually, from all I have seen, getting rid of all the clouds of the separate-self takes a long time in certain states (boundless, timeless infinite consciousness, nondual and the separate-self already nothing but a feeling of "individuality", some "nothing" watching the nondual totality), 100s of hours. Maybe 1000s. For most practitioners at least, including yours truly. On the stage 3 and 4 of the stages of Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation alone (and these are not boring or annoying sitting meditation hours by then, but blissful and wonderful hours in daily life in something called Post-Samadhi-Meditation (or off the pillow meditation) in the book). And in that 100s or 1000s of hours subtle separtate-self identities/arisings get spotted, seen (subject->object), transcended and cut off. And I can assure you, oh boy, these are sometimes really sneaky and subtle. When all of that is transcended, the sudden Deep Identity Shift/Understanding can happen. "Yes, there is nothing else than THAT, and "my" essence is that, and what "I" thought I was was just a movement/arising of thoughts/feelings/centers within THAT. My True Being is all of Reality. But nothing specific. No separate-anything. The whole enchilada without center and core". But its not a elaborated thinking. It is Infinite Consciousness UNDERSTANDING/REALIZING itself, and there is nothing else than THAT, never possibly could be. The understanding in thought-form gets elaborated LATER, after Infinite Consciousness/Reality has understood itself, the nature of the world and its own nature (nondual). Psychedelics: bring a lot and strong forms of the Awakened States (nondual, infinite, mere appearance, and a lot more). States that one would only get by meditation if already very empty, or the separate-self-arising (thought/feeling)flow already cut a lot. So the states are very awake/nondual/infinite, but the separate-self-arisings is still colouring the experience. Although they can also be very subtle/empty at that state. And that is my little theory that explains all phenomena and examples I have seen so far: There is just not enough time and deeply cut-off/transcended separate-self-arisings in psychedelic states to cause that deep Identity-Level Shift of Full Enlightenment. And often, and maybe even much more problematic than the point just mentioned, there is a lot of nonduality/Unity in psychedelic states but a lot of separate-self-feelings/identites/... still left. Not a pure and impersonal Nonduality/Unity, but rather a Unity loaded with not-so-impersonal-stuff. And that doesn't fully count as these 100s or 1000s hours mentioned above, because they may be not so flashy consciousness/awakened, but are already quite nondual/Unity and very very impersonal/empty/nearly-no-separate-self still left. Only last fragments, being dissolved as time goes on. Short form: Meditation: Unity/Nonduality/Awakened States only when very large parts of separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) are already gone/transcended Psychedelics: Lots of Unity/Nondual/Awakened States EVEN with separate-self-arisings (thoughts/feelings) in large parts not seen trough, even with the help of the psychedelic. Full Enlightenment: And for the sudden Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment the separate-self-arisings/thoughts/feelings need to be ALL seen through/Transcended/cut off (which at the same time is also a huge boost of Nonduality/Awakenings, making the whole field an infinite nondual groundless mere appearance field hovering within ones timeless true always here Being, and Infinite Awareness Space with separate-self-center/Individuality fully gone. Just THIS). In Full Enlightenment, there is no agent left that is still believed, no center. So one IS Reality itself. And literally everything that could ever appear is a manifested/imagined arising/appearance, imagined by "the" Infinite Mind/Consciousness. And that "Mind", or Reality, dreams and is deluded until "It" realized there is only itself, watching itself, fooling and believing itself in endless appearances. If there is "someone", or arisings of a "you" that thinks "it" is enlightened: Welcome, that is another illusion-layer (as Leo correctly points out). It is maybe an Enlightenment (Nondual Unity with the Infinite Void), but not Full Enlightenment. And for the impersonal aspect: Sounds horrible, in practice its wonderful: One is this life "oneself", next life maybe life something else completely: Different personality, different body, Human, Alien, whatever. Impersonal Consciousness open up exactly that. Like dreaming being someone/something else at night. But the price of transcending this specific bodymind has to be paid. And since its only an illusion, only has some fear-defense-mechanism BEFORE the Gateless Gate of waking up to ones True Identity, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, or Reality itself. Water by the River

For that, please check the book. Really, it would be worth it. Noting and labeling is waaay to slow, among other things. If you hit a baseball, and would have to note/label what you are doing, that would take way too long, multiple tenths-of-a-second up to seconds. The ball would be long gone. To get good, one has to hit the ball without any thinking. And to learn to do that really well, one gets coached for every miniature-movement of pitching, and how that grows and develops. Zen and noting/labeling is like: Just hit the ball. And even if you hit the ball, how to hit it really far? Or how to hit all balls (even subtle separate-self thoughts/feelings). Like, how to induce really Awakened/Nondual States? Because that happens only with a high speed cutoff of all (even the subtle separate-self-arisings/thoughts/feelings) That needs a good coaching system. Noting and labeling is still thinking, and thinking is way too slow. Like, really way to slow. A very important aspect in my description-post was: High-Speed Search into the nature and emergence of concepts (or rather, into the unfindability of anything solid in their nature, or finding consciousness/empty Awareness/Reality/Suchness in each and every thought arising, and into the temporal phenomenology of their appearnce). To first realize what that nature of thoughts/concepts is, the book needs quite some time. And only realizing that nature correctly, fast enough and how it emerges temporally, is what actually dissolves the thought fast enough, without causing any other fast/subtle thoughts/feelings in its wake. The mindstream is really tricky here, really fast and subtle hard to spot separate-self thoughts, feelings and sensations. So how is this High Speed Search/Cut Off task done, for example at a certain stage: see the quote below. The time-aspect of emergence, staying, disappearing of thoughts is examined. NOT the content, but the temporal structure. That is totally different than noting & labeling. Noting & Labeling is thought-based, content-based, not structure based how it all emerges in the mindstream from a temporal perspective. And that temporal thought-emerging process then changes with practice dramatically. Also, I just scratched the surface of the stages and methods. What most meditation-methods do is like: Here is New York, there is LA, drive west. What Mahamudra does is give you a map for each interstate-crossing. Literally. And just driving west normally ends in a cul-de-sac, meditation gets impossible boring or needs endless will, because one sees zero progress and no changes. I had to read that book (the important passages 10-20 times) to get it, and had to align it with my ongoing practice-experience. It needs some meditation-experiences to understand what the different stages are talking about. Meditation experience generates new meditation-experience-referents, with which gets worked then in the next stages. I can not cut down a 600 page book into short posts, just give some little previews and differences of what is innovative in this system and not found somewhere else in other systems. Selling Water by the River "PS: To give you just a small taste of the level of technical precission of the stage description of what happens. And what the meditators of most other systems only learn coincidentally and as unconsciousness competence (they wouldn't be able to tell WHAT precicly they do, or changed doing). And that is just one change of many on the path of that system: The Mind-Moments mentioned in the quote below can be for example thougt-arising-events. Brown, Pointing out the Great Way, chapter Skill of Reckognition: "At this stage of meditation the practitioner is likely to experience a series of shifts in the way events seem to arise and pass away in the mental continuum, as if the temporal organization of events itself were changing. Four such rearrangements occur in stages: (1) Awareness of the initial phase of arising only. Mind-moments arise so rapidly that one appears to arise just as the previous one ceases. The practitioner is aware of only the moment events arise and is not aware of their duration or cessation. This awareness of the immediate arising is expressed in Pema Karpds phrase "at the moment it is born," as well as in Tashi Namgyel's phrase "happens to arise." (2) The tripartite unit of arising, staying, and ceasing (byung, gnas, song). During the next stage the practitioner notices not only the initial moment of arising (byung) but also some discernible duration (gnas; literally, "staying") of the event, followed by its cessation (song). The entire unit—arising, staying, ceasing—constitutes a single discrete mental event, irrespective of the category of mental content. (3 )At the next stage, the practitioner experiences another shift in temporal experience, characterized by awareness of only moment-by-moment arising and passing away (skye 'gag). Mind-moments are experienced to be very short-lived without much discernible duration. They arise and pass very quickly. Tashi Namgyel calls this stage "momentary arising" (thol ba). [Comment from me: and here at (3) the magic can start: Thought arising get faster and faster when one looks at the temporal structure of their emergence and into their essence/nature, but they are cut off immediately (without much descernible duration). It takes a long time to get there. When at that stage, thoughts that normally elaborate over several seconds show up at once, one "knows" their full content before they even elaborate in the mindstream over several seconds, and can cut them off immedeately. That gives a complete new understanding how the mind works at that high-speed-level, and is the beginning of Awakening if cut-off in sufficient speed so that the NO thoughts elaborate but just emerge as capsules. Then, they start to stop emerging for some time. And if they emerge, they are different. It also starts to show Infinite Consciousness as timeless always here reality, Existence itself. Not as idea, but as experience]. And that skill then gets developed over several more stages.] (4) During the final stage the practitioner comes to realize that the idea that discrete events arise and pass over time is itself a mere construct of the ordinary mind. All distinctions concerning the seeming temporal unfolding of mental events are found to be empty, and the practitioner develops a new realization of the mind's real nature as always here (skye med). The first three experienced rearrangements in the temporal unfolding of the mental events pertain to the skill exercises, while the fourth pertains to the subsequent yoga of unelaboration. [Outcome is that each and any thought-arising can be cut, or alternatively watched in a lucid manner] Although the three parts of the skill meditation are said to be experienced in stages (rim pa), this distinction is not always explicit since the actual root-text instructions are typically given in a combined form." And the insight described here is the High-Speed-Cut-Off Searchtask into the Unfindability of the essence of thoughts, which then evaporate. And also looking closely HOW thought emerge, stay, cease, and what is always right here. That boosts Awakened/nondual States if done correctly. And also gives the first intuition of the always here, or eternal/immortal nature of consciousness/reality, not as idea, but as direct understanding.

Yes, I agree. I do know when I look what I have read/studied/evaluated that I am not romantically in love with Buddhism and project a lot of stuff on it (which normally goes along being romantically in love with something). I highly like, and consider at similiar impact on my path and practice: Nisargadatta Jac O'Keffee Francis Lucille Steven Wolinsky Coming Home, Lex Hixon (pretty much all traditions covered) Wilber (also at home and fine with all traditions) and quite a lot more... And for me, "Buddhism" is so diversified that I consider at least three separate branches that are pretty much totally different meditation system, and also have pretty much very different philosophical approaches to point to the Absolute. Theravada Zen Tibetan Buddhism (especially Mahamudra and Dzogchen) And that is just for the broad diversions, there are and have been endless sub-schools. For example see : "https://www.amazon.de/Mahayana-Buddhism-Doctrinal-Foundations-Religious/dp/0415356539". And Buddhism is not only a spiritual meditation system, but also a religion, guiding millions of souls that are "not there yet" to go fully for transcendence& (meditation) practice, and yet do have a certain "soul-growth-task" in this life also, and deserve a good spiritual/value-map/system for that also. Honestly, I always tend to smile internally when somebody calls me Buddhist. Like being pointed to the beautiful love affair of a long time ago. But I guess it looks so from the outside the way I mostly write about Buddhist meditation system. I do have my preferences concerning actual meditation systems (and not just philosophical schools/systems), and I have never seen anything in sophistication quite like the Mahamudra/Dzogchen-system. And even that benefits strongly from adding stuff from the teachers/sources mentioned above at certain stages of the practice. In 100-200 years we will probably have something what John Churchill calls a "Planetery Dharma", uniting and integrating all efficient practices. Doing double-blind studies of what works and how fast. Combining that with psychedelics. Using new technical terms that are not culturally loaden, and removing all the mythic and cultural baggage. Until then, I try to be as integral as possible, and look for signs of the most efficients systems/practices that there are. And what is also going on is the exploration of a truly Infinite Multiverse and Reality. What started with endeavours like the Supreme Array Sutra ( https://www.psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz ) and similiar stuff is now truly starting to take off our days. For everyone so inclined, see Jaques Vallee, Jürgen Ziewe, Andrew Gallimore, Rick Strassman and many more. And of course the magnificent exploration going on right here! Water by the River