Water by the River

Uh oh, i hope that the protagonist writing the lines quoted above stating his realizations and insights here in a way he believes is truthful doesnt get burned at the stake for heresy in this lovely openminded congregation of the one true faith in order to sacrifice his mortal body for the sake of saving his eternal soul and the souls of further ones reading this heresy and who are still weak in true faith and can be led to temptation banned on the altar of "having to reach orbital velocity in kicking out each and any (human)idea that could harm true AWAKENING". Or for some other noble cause. But on the other side, one could assume that real awakening is robust enough to hold some non-believers in its field of Reality without crumbling in its Awakenings or failing to continue achieving new Awakenings and venturing into realms where no human has ventured before. Just for the sake of saving the non-believers for the, um, real thing? Like out of compassion or something the like? Although I have to admit maybe that just because this robustness has become quite easy for me after realizing that actually Big Me is responsible for the aparrent mindstream of even the most annoyingly funny ignorant beings which small me encounters ... Precious training opportunity for small me hangovers so to say.... that it is maybe not so easy for others. Who knows. These little anecdotes aside, are we not mature, humorous, second tier and sure enough about our insights and Awakenings into reality enough to endure a little agree to disagree in a gracious way? Seriously?! Respectfully yours Water by the River

Well, I was not asked... But since that is a topic everyone has coming up down the road... the most fascinating gentlemen on that in my view, which I take serious on it since his Full Enlightenment description is legit, is Jürgen Ziewe. https://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Astral_Travel_and_life_after_death.html

1 : yes 2 : no 1 : What do you mean ? 2 : No Are you trolling me I'm talking from my POV, from your POV (which doesn't exist from mine), yeah you feel pain Here at 1:26:26 I am not trolling you. I could ask you the same. I have clearly asked "Do I feel pain if you pinch me", and you have clearly stated no. And I wrote yes I do. And then you wrote "I'm talking from my POV, from your POV (which doesn't exist from mine), yeah you feel pain", while my question was Do I feel pain if you pinch me, not from your perspective but if I feel pain if you pinch me. That seems to me like Solipsistic mental gymnastic. When Solipsism is done from the level of the separate self/ego, it normally turns out like that. Rupert Spira once said Solipsism (from the ego-level) is madness. Hard to contradict.

There is nothing than the Absolute, only the Absolute, containting its manifestation. The other beings/perspectives can also only be this One Reality. And that there is Awareness in them as their essence, and that this is the One Pure Impersonal Awareness, is a direct realization available in certain awakened nondual states. That is enough! The "other" human beings are not non-player-characters. The feel the same as you. There essence IS you. And the other way round. This non-euclidian space vision Leavitt had is the way Reality can communicate this insight. A teaching tool communicated by Reality itself. Way better than Solipsism + all others are non-player-characters. That is just not the case. They are all the ONE Player, appearing as many. Leavitts vision is not the defining factor necessary to verify that other beings/perspectives ARE the same Impersonal Pure Awareness. The defining factor is Enlightenment, as described above. That is no belief-system, but a direct realization. As I wrote, take the Leavitt Picture of the non-euclidian space of perspectives/Indras Net as useful working model. It as a useful pointer to calm the mind on the question of others (the Solipsism belief-system), and practice nonceptual empty impersonal awakened states to get to nondual states and then realize what you are. That will answer the questions. Sure you can turn anything into an belief system. But then one better uses useful pointers or belief system that actually point at the moon to realize the moon. Not pointers pointing to the street-light and realizing then the street-light and thinking its the moon. One doesn't need to understand the workings of a steam machine in order to know its essence: steel. And one will never figure out the workings of Reality in its manifested details. Its infinity. God is busy exploring all of that, forever. If the fascination for figuring out all details of the steam machine fascinates so much that one doesn't realize its essence of Pure Impersonal Awareness (but thinks one has done it, but didn't, and hasn't got nondual awakened states sobre this way) and the essence of each and every possible differently designed steam engine, and suffers in a grasping way for experiencing ever more steam machines because one is bored or suffers because one hasn't realized ones essence.... Very actualized, indeed.

You don't need to experience the content of the mindstream of other perspectives to understand their essence/Awareness/Being. Only a fraction of Full Enlightenment descriptions contain a description like Leavitts Picture. And actually, there is no need for that. Structure/essence vs. content. Why it is that way can not really be communicated in language, but becomes clear once realization happens: a) When the last remnants for separation/individuality/separate-self are realized as just arisings in the Infinite Boundless Opening of Absolute Reality/Awareness, and the essence of each and every arising is realized to be a manifestation of THAT, there can be nothing outside/beyond/other to that. It is limitless, boundless and infinite. All there is and can be. Absolute Reality itself. b) The realization that there is nothing other than that Reality excludes the possiblity that there are other "Awarenesses" outside of that. c) And for the validity that each being has the same Pure Impersonal Awareness as its essence: That is a direct realization of just looking at one "other" being/perspective in these enlightened states. It is you. But here, I can not convince you with words or concepts. Train towards these nondual infinite pure empty Awareness states for yourself, and see. a) b) and c) is enough for Full Realization of Reality (and the essence of all possible beings). But like I said, I never claimed I can proove that to anyone without that being having Realization/Enlightenment. And I can't transfer that via text. No one can. Yet the model of Leavitt is a model that makes much more intuitive sense than the standard solipsistic "I exist and all other beings are blank puppets without Awareness or Non-Player-Characters so to say". That view is hazardous for awakening, it ends in Nihilism and Narcissism. That is the only reason I argue against it. It is a bad pointer that leads into the claws of ego and self-contraction and not liberation.

you know, communicating the non-conceptual Truth.

You wrote: 1: Am I something like the "people that have no POV just like in your dreams, see above?" Yes or no? question (1) 2: I can assure you there is pain arising in my perspective if you pinch me. Do others on the forum feel pain if you pinch them? Yes or no? question (2) And if yes, why do only they feel pain and I dont't? question (3) The questions are pretty clear. Please don't avoid or misinterpret them in any way. Just yes or no.

No, directly realizing the essence of their being/Awareness in nondual states is enough. No need to read the content of minds or mindstreams. The content of the mindstream is not the awareness itself. Structure/Essence vs. content. Like I wrote, that is part of the Nondual Realization, and can not be described with words. Please see my last post. The picture is (maybe) just a help to understand (before the Nondual Realization) that others are really You. I can not communicate more with words. It needs Awakened Nondual States, there is no way around it.

Ok, these were two separate questions. To which question refers your no? Am I a nonplayer character in your perspective? Yes or no to question 1. Do I feel pain if you pinch me? Yes or no to question 2. Thank you.

Matter is an arising/manifestation in Infinite Consciousness. It is not something external/out there indepdendly existing from Consciousness. Yes, lets do agree to disagree. Just out of curiosity, because of your questions/implications: Am I a nonplayer character in your perspective? yes or no? Like do I feel pain if you pinch me? Yes or no? Please no evasive answer, a clear yes or no. Thanks.

The outer part of their node in Indras Net (their body) is what is visible in the visual field. The "Interiority" or their Awareness/Consciousness is also directly realized. As yourself. But your True Self, totally empty Impersonal Awareness. What you think what you are as separate self is obviously not compatible with Absolute Impersonal Pure Awareness, since its "loaded" with identities/properties/I-thoughts and so on. But the True Impersonal Pure Awareness in which this all arises is the same in other beings as in you. That is why its so important getting to such impersonal Pure Awareness States, because only in these empty/impersonal Pure Awareness states do nondual/Unity states arise and develop without psychedelics. And only in these can the Absolute Nondual Reality be realized. Every other not impersonal empty Pure Awareness state covers the inherent True Nature with clouds of illusion covering it. But that must be realized, there is no shortcut describing that fully with words/concepts. The second part is a good question: You are not aware of all perspectives manifesting right now. Do you know what you did exactly one year ago? I don't. So we admit forgetting in time. The challenging part is only admitting that forgetting other perspectives in space is also possible. That is why the vision of Leavitt is so helpful to understand how Reality/True You manages to do that. And the really interesting part is that he had non-euclidian space (which can hold infinite perspectives) in that vision. When the full nondual realization is in place it is directly realized and clear anyway. But until then the vision of Leavitt can help keeping oneself open that all others beings are exactly NOT Non-Player-Characters, but YOU. It quiets these doubt-arising about how all beings can be you, lets you rest in Impersonal Pure Awareness, and when these states ripen to nondual states of Pure Impersonal Awareness/boundless nondual Totality, then in these states true realization can happen. The picture of Leavitt and all these concepts alone, proove nothing of that.

So that means you are the only one or only perspective, and all others are just NPCs in your dream if you think there is no mindstream that holds the pain of the pinching then. So that I must assume is the outcome of Leos Solipsism teachings. All "others" on the forum who read this can make up their own mind about if you are the only perspective perceiving anything. The funny thing about the Solipsist is: Everybody else hearing the Solipsist knows the guy is wrong.

Sure

Including the concepts you just wrote.

Not like the vision shown in that picture. But with direct nondual realization, yes. It is clear. The same Pure Impersonal Awareness/I-Am-ness that I know myself to be is in all beings, and in every arising/manifestation I see. That is not a concept, but a direct realization/experience. It is directly becoming consciousness of that. It is impossible to carry that fully in words. When the personal self is gone, what remains is Impersonal Pure Awareness. And that realizes itself to be in all beings, all things, each and every realm, infinite, limitless. That is the true core of all beings, below their arising clouding/illusion of their separate-self arisings. Since there is, was, and ever will be ONLY that. And with all these claims about metaphysical love here in this threat: THAT is the source of love. There literally IS NO OTHER, and never can be. Never was. There is only the illusion of anything separate/other. You can't have Full Realization of the nature of Reality (and ones true self) if one doesn't have that. Because that would be an "other". That breaks any nondual state. That comes btw. not as "facet" of Awakening, but naturally with fully waking up. How could one wake up if there is still another person/being? There is only one suchness/"substance" of Reality, and that is the True You.

That is a pointer to the Absolute Leavitt uses. Nothing is not a bad pointer for the infinite/empty aspect, the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness. Better is Nothingness, because its harder to imagine some object with that, and be it just emptiness silence. And raging refers to the Manifested Side of Arisings, which is a wild divine dance of manifestation/arising. If you want to understand the pointers given by Leavitt and how to interpret them, what he means by them, please feel free to read the book. And if you prefer, we can also use the clap of the one hand, Raspberry, or just silence. I am pretty flexible on that. The signifier (word) doesn't count as much as the referent (Realization of the Absolute). And if the Referent is realized/known, then pointers work. And if not, then not.

I assumed that. You get the smile anyway. quote from:

The "people" have the exact same Pure Impersonal Consciousnes/Awareness as their essence as "you" and "I". That is an obvious fact once you realize your own True Being. There is only That Infinite Reality/Consciousness. You see and realize your own Impersonal Pure Being in them also. That is the meaning of True Nonduality. That is the source of love. For the other "people": Notice the non-euclidian (infinite) space in the vision below. And now just forget all the other perspectives (forgetting not in time, but in space so to say). That is how you splice up Infinite Consciousness, and forget that YOU are all other beings/persepctives. The people/beings are just perspectives in Indras Great Net, reflecting each other, and that Impersonal Pure Infinite Consciousness/Awareness is the True You. Every "other" appeance (of the world, such as a tree) you see as as its essence THAT Infinite Pure Impersonal Consciousness in a nondual way. That is what becomes totally obvious with Full Enlightenment. There is only That/You. "You do agree that people have no POV just like in your dreams right ?" That is exactly the pretty nuts wrong interpretation of Solipsism. Why do you even talk to "others" if you hold that as true? Pretty unnecessary, isn't it? And space and time are of course imaginary. But one more thing: If all is imaginary, everything is just as real as anything else. Because if there is only imagination, there are no degrees of "real". Including that sentence and this insight.

When you explain the concept of Solipsism to someone not fully enlightened, they will (and only can) misunderstand it in way that makes it untrue. Because they are refering it to their highest self-image they have of themself, and that is not the Absolute (else they would be fully enlightened). And when its not refered to a realized/experienced Absolute but to something arising in that (separate-self-Gestalt/Ego, Unity-state, whatever), it is just not true/the case.

I know.

Today is really compliment-day. So I am not even asking for reasons/arguments beyond "its just like that".

On an Absolute Level, yes. But in my opinion pushing that concept is not helpful because it will just lead to ego=God inflation on the way up to the mountain summit. On the way up the mountain one wants to transcend the ego/separate-self (aka cut each and any arising constituting the separate-self off before it elaborates/fully rises in Awareness). Inflating the ego/separate-self and its narcissism is the opposite of that. That just stops the ascend, or generating Awakened Nondual States. And on the mountain summit its obvious anyway. One doesn't need this concept on the path up the summit in any way, as all meditation system align on.

No