Water by the River

Realizing oneself to be that which doesn't die and was never born. And until realizing that, Jürgen Ziewe:

First, concerning the other post: I had to read "The Religion of Tomorrow" multiple times. It is not as self-explanatory as most of his other books, and quite difficult to understand sometimes. He doesn't fully explain concepts he already presented in other books. That is rather unusual for a Wilber book, but due to the sheer size/scope necessary. Its one of the three Opus Magnum books of Wilber (announced as Kosmos Trilogy around 20 years ago). Book one is Sex, Ecology, Spirituality, and the second and third book has basically been delivered as "The Religion of Tomorrow" and the Excerpts concerning Wilber 5 (An Integral Age at the Leading Edge, The Many Ways We Touch _ Three Principles Helpful for Any Integrative Approach, The Ways We Are in This Together,...). Supermind basically is True Nondual Realisation of the Absolute (on a pretty permanent and not just state basis), coupled with an integral postformal-/vision-logic- cognition realizing itself to be the Kosmos, and realizing how the past is imagined right here right now, and therefor the now contains the karmic memory print of all past moments that came before (imagined right here, right now). So, everything that has ever been literally resonates in ones being, as ones Infinite Being. "If “Big Mind” is used as a synonym for the nondual state, you can be at, say, teal, and have a Big Mind experience (which you will interpret in teal terms). But notice: you cannot be at teal and have a peak experience of Supermind. Supermind is a structure, not a state per se (although it is conjoined with the nondual state), and therefore, in its structural dimension, Supermind must be grown and developed. Integral Theory says, “States are free, structures are earned,” which means that most states can be peak experienced, or plateau experienced, by virtually any structure, because these states are already present in some degree in everyone, just as an infant wakes, dreams, and sleeps (or goes through gross, subtle, and causal realms), but structures themselves have to grow, evolve, and unfold in a developmental fashion, “transcending and including” their predecessors". The blue statement is sometimes not en vogue on this forum. Wilber is smart enough to not really engage in this game. So how many are there? Realized as a plateau to permanent stage, my guess is way less than 10.000. It needs pretty permanent True Nondual Realization/Enlightenment, plus high level integral vision-logic understanding. There is a statement in his book One Taste on how many deeply enlightened contemporary Zen-Masters there were in the 90s. I have written elsewhere about it. Yet, as an attractor-point, a beacon of what is possible (True Realization and an integral/vision-logic cognitive level of understanding to unpackage this realization), Supermind excerts a huge pull. Selling Water by the River

credit to @Yimpa

Chapter Dysfunctions of the 3rd-Tier Structure-Views, Violet Meta-Mind: "One can step deeply enough into thetimeless Now to step into another dimension altogether—just step right here, and push hard. It’s easy to get lost in those worlds, which are, at bottom, simply different dimensions and perspectives of one’s own (violet) consciousness (although, as noted, from another angle, they are all real, ontologically different realms because they are each genuinely co-enacted by a different perspective in consciousness). Given that this stage is the first great transition from “earthly” realms to “heavenly” realms (as a permanent structural enaction), getting lost in these “higher worlds” is indeed one of the most common dysfunctions of this level. The deeply transcendental, otherworldly, electrically visionary nature of consciousness at this altitude makes fixation to this side of the street an incredibly inviting and alluring venture. This is likely to couple with the dysfunction, discussed earlier, of standing in heaven and giving a blistering critique of life here on earth, with all the semiprophetic pomp and pomposity that comes with it. One of the things that often happens with these specific dysfunctions is that, after making some initial discovery of a timeless Now or pure Present (either in 3rd-tier structures or higher states), one can step into that Present and then step right through it into what seem to be endless, “deeper,” “higher” realms altogether, a kaleidoscopic cascade of universes upon universes that at one point seem to be nothing but a slight wiggle in this moment’s timeless Now, and then at the next explode into almost infinitely extending real realms that are all alive and invite exploration—with a sign on the door that says “Welcome to Heaven!” This is extremely common in high subtle and low causal states, but if it happens with structures, it tends to happen right here, with the violet meta-mind (due largely to its visionary nature). ... But this problem is simply the living result of the enactive nature of the real world and the fact that consciousness can co-create an almost endless number of universes, any number of which one can become fixated or semiaddicted to, with straightforwardly dysfunctional results." An alien or two belong to the package.

Intensifying -and easing up - techniques in the Mahamdura system, see for example "Pointing out the Great Way", Brown. You can find a description of my experiences with Mahamudra the Pointing out the Great Way-style in my archive.

Maybe you find Wilbers book "One Taste" interesting. On the topic of Enlightenment & awakened states, the entries start mainly from March 9th (it is a diary of one year).

Maybe some time in the future. But I agree with you, it is very difficult to judge someone (especially the state in which the person in in) only by text/internet and not by presence. And I also agree with you that in certain situations it makes sense "to shake the tree a bit" and see which fruits fall off from it, so to say . But also have some mercy, nobody likes to be suspected to be less than truthful. For me its ok if you stay "agnostic". With style of course But yes, Spain is beautiful, and sometimes the River flows there, but not for selling Water, more for holidays or business And everybody be nice to Squeekytoy. I mean, just look at the profile picture! Who could ban a rubber ducky?

Yes to the first part, and for the second part: Selling Water by the River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem "Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

Wilber, Eye to Eye. The three strands of knowledge. -> All valid knowledge is similar because it entails 1) a prescription for attaining the knowledge in question, 2) the actual attainment of the knowledge, and 3) social consensus as to the validity of the knowledge attained. These are the "three strands" that constitute all knowledge and science. And yes, point two IS the generation of actual data. In our case, gnosis, Rigpa, Satori, or however one wants to call it. "Speaks" for itself, doesn't need any external validation. But if its the same for all beings (UNIVERSAL UNCHANGING (Unborn Tao ) Infinite Consciousness/Reality), the outcome of the path walked to the end shouldn't be too different... And that is point 3. And if I read any text any culture any century any tradition, I know exactly what they are all pointing to. Actually, I am it. And you too. Water by the River

"I don't know why, but they prefer that way"

Boomeritis, Wilber: Sidebar H Boomeritis Buddhism?

You are absolutely right. Nothing better. Yours truly has put himself pretty proficient on high-speed-automatic-ignore, thank God... Best thing small water by the River ever did: Installing an off-switch for small illusion-me. Still grasping for the non-imagined non-illusion self-existing Aliens arising outside of True Being. No, just kidding.

Agree on all points. Even the soul-game is an appearance, ultimately not real. But equally real or unreal as ones car, for example. And endures death, which the car can not claim when the scrap press comes along... "How wonderful it is that in the infinite ocean of myself the waves of living beings arise, collide, play, and disappear, in accordance with their nature" 2.25 Ashtavakra Gita And for (not true/full) Nonduality: Also agree. Nonduality is most often a merging/unity experience, where the separate-self/individuality can still be well and alive, and hijack the nondual unity-state. "I realized nonduality/Reality", "I am pure awareness", "I am God", "I am whatever", "I realized *whatever*". And what triggers most likely a unity/nondual-state with the separate-self still well and alive, later interpreting the experience in a way that doesn't kill/transcend but boost and extend the lense/filter/illusion of the separate-self to God-like proportions? What could that be? Or (true) Nonduality, to truly realize that one has ever been, always is, and never can not be Infinite Reality itself. That Reality is impersonal, groundless, empty and infinite, absolute potential, no separate-identity left, no inner-blabla-talk of any(!) kind still believed and not immediately cut off, seen as illusion arisings within ones True Infinite Self. The illusion is seen through.... Pure groundless Being is realized, containing this and any possible world/apperance. That (and only that) can end the suffering/(aka resistance to what is) which is the essence of what any separate-self is at its core. "There is no one subject to samsara, no sense of individuality, no goal or means to the goal in the eyes of the wise man who is always free from imagination and unchanging like space" 18.66 Ashtavakra Gita "When the sage has realised that he himself is in all beings, and all beings are in him, it is astonishing that the sense of individuality should be able to continue" 3.5 Ashtavakra Gita And even something with imagination and God and realization is in the Ashtavakra Gita: "Recognising [Realizing] that [all] things are just constructions of imagination, that great soul lives as God here and now". 18.28 The only thing I didn't find in the Ashtavakra Gita is Alien & company. But since its quite hard to contradict that Alien & company are also imagined and merely appearing illusions arising in the Reality of ones own True Being... But hey, what does Water by the River know? NOTHING. But that quite profoundly. Selling Water by the River

thanks for mentioning that. And for a very similiar perspective not from a channeler, but a first hand Out-of-body explorer of these afterlife-realms: The books of Jürgen Ziewe.

or: Selling Water by the River

Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm Muraesco, The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name Carl Ruck, The Apples of Apollo: Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist Strassman, DMT and the Soul of Prophecy: A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible

So lets hope he still has fun. I am pretty sure he has... God definitely had fun cosplaying him.

Not quite correct, Mr. Cantor has proven that. See Cantors set theory and Cantor in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor_set See Cantors set theory. There exists an infinity of differently large infinities. Not every theoretical possibility must be manifested even if manifestation continues forever & infinitely. Selling the possibility that not every hell possible actually exists in the Infinities of the River

and jokes aside, what is going to rout very evil very confused and very angry/hateful souls back home after their murderous activity? Some good old frying in Dantes Inferno... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante) And yes, Dante was also into psychedelics... For more contemporary experiences: For some Hell-NDEs, Chris Bache, Dark Night, Early Dawn. Steps to a Deep Ecology of Mind. And Jürgen Ziewes first hand OBE accounts where Osama bin Laden & crew ends up in Ziewe, Vistas of Infinity. For some impressive pictures of the lovely crew of those realms: Ziewe, Elysium Unveiled: A Visual Odyssey of Life Eternal Luckily, it is only imagined/illusion. And not forever. But I guess that doesn't really help these poor (imagined) souls that are evaluating first hand what Spirit is capable of to get the lost sheep to repent & back on track towards home... Considering all of that, the famous statement "Although my view is higher than the sky, my respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour" seems a good way the keep this dream (and the next) on the more comfy side. If one is so inclined... Hic sunt dracones. Selling views higher than the sky & respect for the cause and effect of actions by the River

David Spangler, Subtle Worlds - An Explorer's Field Notes. Chapter 8: Soul Jürgen Ziewe, Multidimensional Man. A Voyage of Discovery into the Heart of Creation. Chapter The final journey, 25th August 1980 Chris Bache, LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven. Chapter Reincarnation and the Soul and more on request. Soul. Imagined and appearing of course. Like everything else. Therefor, as real or unreal as anything else... Or, in other words, as real or unreal as ones car. Yet, a little more durable, like in... immortal, surviving death. From life to life, dream to dream. And more important. The epic game of forgetting and finding, played by Infinite Consciousness/Being/Reality... Souls... very much worth taking care of on this relative level of ours. Especially when venturing to far out realms, where no man has gone before.... hic sunt dracones. Selling Soul-Eddies in the Water by the River PS: And like Inliytened1 wrote above: A concept. From the perspective of Absolute Truth. Like every other manifestatation, as real or unreal as anything else. As long as this concept is not seen through, no realization of Absolute Reality. Yet, the (relative) concept 2+2=4 holds more (relative) truth than 2+2=5. Same with the concept soul: relative, appearing truth, not Absolute Truth. But since Absolute Truth contains Relative Truth, and as we all know, relative (un-) Truth can make a lot of trouble.... "Although my view is higher than the sky (Absolute Truth), my respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour (relative truth)".

Ziewe has a legit Full Enlightenment experience description in his book "The Ten Minute Moment" which is very very hard to just make up in the form he describes. Shhhh, or else the metaphysical Love=Absolute aficionados could get a challenge that suddenly a legit nondual realizer has had the Godhead-Absolute Reality-Love-Light realization as foundation of Reality/Absolute also, but on a more stable basis and not only a temporary state - and also values and emphasizes its importance a lot! Seen from that perspective, the only thing that is missing a bit is that Szyper starts talking about some advanced Alien-level-stuff, but you never know... ( : By the way, Ziewe has some literal Aliens, and also some more metaphysical Alien-Level-realizations descriptions in his books (Multidimensional Man mainly). Selling Love Light by the River

There is also a lot of explanations of his OBEs inside. He writes quite alot about the realms, mechanisms and phenomena that he describes in the books in more detail. They align with Buhlman, Spandler, Monroe, Grof and so on. He is for sure not the only or first one exploring these areas in OBEs. History of full of reports like this from mystics before (Dante, Swedenborg, Spandler, the descriptions of Grof... all the myths and books of the dead, all cultures & all centuries). He created the images himself with the help of AI. He is a professional Illustrator, so that also helped. It is a work of astounding beauty. In the video staring at 1min 40 (below)you can see some of the text, although it is more text than visible due to the zoom-in in the video. Selling Jürgen Ziewes & various other OBEs by the River

Why do you assume the cycle of existences stops with liberation? There are many voices and spiritual traditions (most of them) stating that Enlightenment is only the beginning of new, liberated and more awake/nondual forms of being/manifestation/wakeful dreams. Liberation/Enlightenment to stop the cycle of birth and death sounds very much like early buddhism (Hinanyana). Enlightened Mindstreams/beings don't stop (no dropping dead upon Enlightenment), they become nondual and non-separated, liberated and free. So why should there be no continuation after shedding this form-body (in whatever form or place)? There will not be much separate-anything left, but some more awake and liberated tendencies/Karma (in the case of a liberated being of course more liberated and awake). Among the spiritual traditions, pretty much only early Buddhism proclaimed the stop of cycle of birth and death, or no other existence. And the "Enlightenment"-ideal of early Buddhism was mainly cessation, not so much nondual realization in daily life, or Full Enlightenment. Latest with Mahayana, Buddhism changed its course dramatically on that. Selling Water by the River