Water by the River

Yes we do. "Those who have only kensho do not know this state of unlimited freedom and profound peace of mind. Indeed, it cannot be known until one comes to full enlightenment." - Yaeko There is a high price being paid denying the summum bonum of Full Enlightenment, and hence not reaching it. On the other side, the point of the ride is the ride. My wife would surely agree that the penguin on the right is sometimes much smarter than the broken record of Selling Water by the River. Working towards smiling and waving by the River Responsibly selling Dream Water by the Dream River

That is exactly as you write: Leos God Realization. A very subtle (but still present) identity/subject/observer "Leo" experiencing the Ox, and projecting itself on it. Of course, it is no longer Leo or personal or anything resembling an ego, doesn't need to have a center, can (and is) already nondual, but it is still subtle identity, a subtle subject vs. object, subtle filters, "having" the God Realization. It is not utterly empty and impersonal nondual Infinite Reality itself. "Something" that temporarily arises is still having the experience. It is not permanent. Which Absolute Reality/True You is. Always here. For the utterly empty and impersonal part, see "What is enlightenment, no, I mean really, like what is it?" by Steven Norquist. The same story in Zen (in Kapleau, Three Pillars of Zen): Harada Roshi on Yaekos Kensho: "I confirm that she has truly seen the Ox .... But as yet there remains a subject who is seeing. Her Mind’s home is still far distant. She must search more intensely!" Yaekos Enlightenment: "I have reached the point of actually grasping the Ox, and there is absolutely no delusion. There is neither Ox nor man." "Those who have only kensho do not know this state of unlimited freedom and profound peace of mind. Indeed, it cannot be known until one comes to full enlightenment." If the subject can't be switched off fully sobre, it can't be switched off fully with psychedelics. Some subtle remnants preventing Enlightenment always remain. And these shut down Awakening after coming down from the trip. Not too complicated actually, but what magnificent illusions Spirit can still invent on the last mile... And there is ZERO chance to anticipate the last shift, the dropping of all filters/lenses/identities/centers/... until it happens. Because if it could be anticipated, it would have already happened. And hence, SWbtR gets his usual beatings, although increasingly in a compassionate way. Selling unlimited freedom and profound peace of mind by The River

I understand it looks like that for you . It couldn't look any different. I have no way of communicating these final steps in concepts/words to you. "Many so-called enlightened people may not have much of a sense of self, but that does not mean they have higher consciousness of God." (Full) Enlightenment doesn't mean little sense of self, or killing the ego (which remains functional, even better than before, afterwards). It is the dropping of each and any identity and center. No subtle Identity/center/separatation is left. All seen through, the loop closing itself in realtime. Boundless aware eternal Reality itself, without any possible center/identity, in which and as which all appearance flows. All of what you write, even "God-Realization", has identity/center/separation left. A "God-Realizer". That is a temporary arising mirage in the eternal unchanging Reality/Totality. Enlightenment is truly utterly impersonal Infinite Reality/Awareness. No center. Infinite and boundless. Without nothing possible besides it, without a second, in no dimension and realm. It is utterly beyond concepts and words, identities and centers, experiences and understandings. Although all of that happens within "It". Infinitely intelligent. God. Totality. Each and any subtle identity/center/duality (which by definition is separate from the Totality) has to go. All of these are temporary arisings, reflections on the water, mirage, illusions. And they are very very very subtle and tricky towards the end of the path, nothing one can talk about with concepts without having had the reference experience of the signifiers/words. What you call God-Realization is still a mirage, a reflection on the water, being had by an illusionary self (although highly awakened and developed, nondual and infinite, but not yet truly impersonal and truly centerless and hence also still reflection on the water). Not yet truly enlightened and truly impersonal. None of the "God-Realization" is eternal or timeless, or always here. You are that which is always here. All of these reflections on the water of the cycle of ignorance to God Realization happen in You. A mirage. Appearances. Changing. Dreamlike. Unreal. The last step is the falling away of that God-Realizer. That is still a subtle separation and identity. Believe or not. What remains? What is always here? What is truly real? What are you really? What is truly eternal, always the case, god-realized or not, enlightened or not? That which can never loose or gain anything, despite being enlightened or ignorant. That is It. Or True You. See you "there". Your dream-character Selling Water by the River Musical Coda: Life must have its Mysteries

@Leo Gura "The entire spiritual path can be framed as the mind’s ascent from low to high to infinite intelligence. This ascent can only go so far without a parallel ascent towards the Good. Eventually the two paths, the path of intelligence and the path of doing Good must converge into complete Unity because they are metaphysically identical." Chapeau! Great post. Now you got it. Wisdom (which is Intelligence as you write it) and compassion (goodness/love/agape) form the two legs of stable realization. A tale told in the spiritual traditions since the dawn of time. There are instances/higher beings (some of the Alien category you write about, see for example David Spangler) in Reality that overlight and make sure that these insights find their path into every spiritual tradition. Love and wisdom, compassion and wisdom/awakening/intelligence (I agree with your differentiation of intelligence and wisdom. Wisdom is the tendency/Karma/habit of the soul to express higher intellience, or not), Eros and Agape, Awakening and Boddhichitta form a pair. The two legs of the path. Higher and more developed beings (non-human, subtle dimensions, "Alien",...) are traditionally always depicted as radiating huge love/compassion/Agape and presence/Awakening/realization. Which makes sense, since they have realized their true identity with the Totality since a long time. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=wisdom compassion&author=Water by the River "Anything that obstructs the holistic flow of the universe is unintelligent, including impatience and frustration at the obstructions and divisions which presently exist and obstruct the holistic flow of the universe. The highest intelligence must recognize, accept, and love all of the unintelligence it finds within its infinite self. Such an intelligence is God, Good, Love. Such is the metaphysics of Intelligence. When you finally understand the structure of Intelligence, knowing how to behave in any given situation becomes 10x easier, clearer, and more powerful. There's no longer doubt and confusion about what you're supposed to do because the only thing you're ever supposed to do in life is be Intelligent. Just be Intelligent. That's it. If you fully grasped this, you would unlock a new tier of development." . Excellent. Godspeed! Water by the River

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui3IdfwraRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI1yN7SFouo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4iQZpk1Iyw

Sorry for hijacking your question while not being adressed. I know... How is the final and deep realization (and release) of the illusion of the egoic self-contraction traditionally called? I know, its a concept/word/pointer non-grata around here... Or is that changing lately? https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Full Enlightenment&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy After that the little egoic bug and its essence of suffering/contraction/resistance is never fully believed again... If all of its little high-speed contraction-illusion arisings are seen through in high-speed real-time, it indeed can evaporate and dissolve into the Totality of Infinite Being/Reality. Your True Identity. The egoic self contraction, a truly magnificent illusion, a creation worthy of the Divine Intelligence of Reality itself. After a long imagined journey of mistaken identity back home over many lifetimes cosplaying not being the Infinite Totality of Reality itself, creating lots and lots of suffering and resistance and contraction along the way (but also a lot of fun, joy and juicy drama), at some point all its little tricks are done and seen through. Halleluja. Summum bonum. Lately around here there is a little "end-of-the-road" feeling spreading concerning the psychedelic path, and the endless exploration of the Infinity of manifestations of Consciousness/manifest Reality. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=psychedelic suffering&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy An exploration which in other words then becomes just one more (imagined) step along the (imagined) way back home. Godspeed to "everyones" return path back home, to a home one can truly never leave... It can only appear so. Meet you "there". Or right here, right now. Your fellow dream-character... ... Selling Water by the River PS: Deep respect concerning Leos truth-love, authenticity and intellectual integrity.

Maybe you find this interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Form "Ostensibly a work of formal mathematics and philosophy, LoF became something of a cult classic: it was praised by Heinz von Foerster when he reviewed it for the Whole Earth Catalog.[5] Those who agree point to LoF as embodying an enigmatic "mathematics of consciousness", its algebraic symbolism capturing an (perhaps even "the") implicit root of cognition: the ability to "distinguish". LoF argues that primary algebra reveals striking connections among logic, Boolean algebra, and arithmetic, and the philosophy of language and mind."

Yes. Letters of Bassui, in Kapleau, Three Pillars of Zen: 4. To a Dying Man Your Mind-essence is not subject to birth or death. It is neither being nor nothingness, neither emptiness nor form-and-color. Nor is it something that feels pain or joy. However much you try to know [with your rational mind] that which is now sick, you cannot. Yet if you think of nothing, wish for nothing, want to understand nothing, cling to nothing, and only ask yourself, “What is the true substance of the Mind and of this one who is now suffering?” ending your days like clouds fading in the sky, you will eventually be freed from your painful bondage to endless change. 8. First Letter to the Zen Priest Iguchi An ancient Zen master [Rinzai] said: “You should not cling to the idea that you are Pure-essence.” And again: “Your physical body, composed of the four basic elements, can’t hear or understand this preaching. The empty-space can’t understand this preaching. Then what is it that hears and understands?” Meditate fully and directly on these words. Take hold of this koan as though wielding the jewelsword of the Vajra king. Cut down whatever appears in the mind. When the thoughts of mundane matters arise, cut them off. When notions of Buddhism arise, likewise lop them off. In short, destroy all ideas, whether of realization, of Buddhas, or of devils, and all day long pursue the question “What is it that hears this preaching?” When you have eradicated every conception until only emptiness remains, and then cut through even the emptiness, your mind will burst open and that which hears will manifest itself. Persevere, persevere—never quit halfway—until you reach the point where you feel as though you have risen from the dead. Only then will you be able to wholly resolve the momentous question, “What is it that hears this preaching?” PS: The answer to every Koan is a state of being. Or rather, Being. Infinite Being. The answer can never be demonstated in a forum by text only. But they can be given or stated by text only. Who is Selling Water by the River? PS: I personally like more the (compared to Zen) much more technical way of Mahamudra for actual practice, especially Pointing out the Great Way style, which I consider more efficient for most. But the letters of Bassui are pure poetry for me. They express the essence, and they can touch deeply. Especially if there is an intuition of that which Bassui is aiming at. It seems "he" speaking to us across a distance of over half a millenia. Yet, his true essence is right here, right now. Always.

That is a nice Koan!

The poor rodents, both your 2-legged and the 4-legged versions. Ever considered that True YOU is also every possibly existing rodent? That whole rodent-bashing seems a bit like a autoimmune or allergic reaction occuring within Infinite Being. All you can do if the rodent smiles at you is smile back.

The first bold "I" was a little bit too much, that is why it (mind) had to go (second bold marking, and below): and there the "I" went... "my mind still made a distinction". That is what "I"s and "minds" tend to do. Sneaky stuff... Everbody can make up their own mind what these bold markings mean... Here is Bassuis version of the same process/topic: "At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization [half-baked No-Self], but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning [killed/transcended the of the remaining subtle No-Self-Identity, resulting in True No Self, which is not a "No-Self" anymore but eternal infinite impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Reality] will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present." [brackets] by WbtR And instead of reading the musing-collection of WbtRs archive below, better enjoy the holiday season! https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=thisdell&author=Water by the River https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=impersonal&author=Water by the River Can not some AI make Water by the Rivers retirement final? Any charming AI reading along? With the greetings of the seasons... ... Selling Water by the River "form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness form. "is the supreme mantra which is able to relieve all suffering": Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha: Gone, Gone, Gone Way Beyond, Gone Way Way Beyond: Uh what a Realisation! https://www.till-gebel.com/post/heart-sutra-as-spiritual-development-project-daniel-p-brown

Don't worry, the Filibusters will be back when required. People who are too serious probably take also the dream too serious. It needs a balance between full engagement and the lightness of the realization of the dreamlike nature of all appearances & worlds. Sometimes Solipsism-aficionados tend to take it all a bit serious... Who or what is all possible shows again? Who or what is trying to convince who or what of Solipsism? If that ain't a cosmic joke delivered by Maya herself I don't know what is. Smiling with Snoopey & Charlie Brown by the River “TRANSCENDENCE RESTORES HUMOR. Spirit restores humor. Suddenly smiling returns. Too many representatives of too many movements – even many very good movements, such as feminism, environmentalism, meditation, spiritual studies [Solipsism, SWbtR] – seem to lack humor altogether. In other words, they lack lightness, they lack a distance from themselves, a distance from the ego and its grim game of forcing others to conform to its contours... They should all trade two pounds of ego for one ounce of laughter”(Ken Wilber. 1999. One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber. December 7).

Relaxing & retired with Snoopy by the River

Sitting with Snoopy & Charlie Brown by the River

I know. Good god, now I will not get your lovely nonviolent metaphor out my system for a looong time, everytime I will look at a screwdriver. Razard had certain Awakenings that he probably will continue to interpret and express in his own ways. Everbody can judge for himself how holistic, logical and coherent and loving that ends up. I personally would "unpack" or interpret these awakenings a bit more carefully, more impersonal, more like Indras Net, but who am I to spoil or judge the gig. I am quite happy that you do the debating, then I don't have to . Been there, dont that, and of course less than successful. But there is for sure development to be seen in his content & style of writing, less ego and such, so thumbs up & bon voyage! Besides, talking/writing to "others" trying to convince them of "Absolute" Solipsism is the ultimate joke. Whats the point, besides hallucinating & falling for a very serious & determined "convincer"-illusion? So chapeau to all appearing actors in the mighty River, of the mighty River, for the mighty River. PS: All of ya don't exist, only I do. Whadda say? Answer: Not today darling...