Preetom

But most people delegate that burden of proof on the nondualist teacher. ''Show me the Self like the external world, then I'll follow your teaching''- that sorta dumb argument. He doesn't consider that if he really did 'see' the Self, then there wouldn't be any brain or external world

@111111 Yeah it was a good one. A kind of visceral realization occurred during watching it. I felt the utter dryness and incapability of 'knowledge'. I realized that only direct experience can satiate this issue.

In this video, the way you framed things sounded kinda like The Absolute is like a dumb mechanical system with only an illusion of sentience/intelligence/consciousness. No matter what evolution or change or shift 'seem' to take place, ultimately nothing is happening and the Absolute remains like a dumb, dead stuff just so full of itself because there isn't anything else. I get that the distinction between mechanical and conscious will ultimately collapse. Anyway @Leo Gura my question is, do you honestly think that the full ramifications of this understanding can really be implemented equally and globally one day? I just can't imagine how could a mass, global 'transactional reality' stomach and survive this Truth realization. Also another thing is, almost all spiritual traditions lure their audience mainly through a combination of promising fantastical goodies and installing fear of the consequences of deluded actions; basically utilizing the primal pleasure-pain dynamic of human brain. But then you come in and open the whole pandora's box, revealing the utter meaninglessness and inconsequential nature of everything to mass audience. Almost all people will neglect your message immediately because it sounds so far fetched, until they suffer immensely and finally start entertaining some of these ideas. What are your thoughts on this? Is excruciating suffering and loss the only way to make the greater mass more open to this? Another thing commonly noticed that, when non dual truths are translated into mind's language, it almost always sounds ugly, self defeating and just unacceptable. What a twist! The mind itself formulates it, then itself can't stomach it! Is it a subtle mechanism of the devilry of the mind so that it can dismiss the message and bum out to avoid the process/practices?

@winterknight This is a practice related question. The self-inquiry beings as following/seeking the 'I' feeling. But after some time there comes to a point when a sort of effortless witnessing happens. There is no longer attachment to any particular object. The attention is loose...just a simple knowing of presence prevails. So at that time, is it better to stay in that relaxed witnessing mode or should I keep probing and seeking the source of this 'knowing' actively until a surrender happens on it's own? Note: In that mode, 'I' is not felt as something located anywhere particularly. Even the mind movements to seek in different directions are witnessed inside a borderless, aware presence.

well clearly something isn't working here Or else those 1000 hours ought to reap some fruit

@Dodo those 1000 hours put into ruthless self-inquiry would be a better investment. My opinion tho

LMAO

@Dodo Haha that was some sentimental stuff! You might like this one. Discusses about many objections you just pulled. Including this argument about God being a mean mofo Anyway, if you really feel like that then the wisest decision for you would be to pursue those things that you think will make you happy. You are the creator of your life and you don't need to believe in God or practice non-duality in order to be a millionaire and all that. Get all those goodies and see if it gives you the 'happiness' you are seeking. If it does, then congratulations! You've fulfilled the purpose of life. If the project fails, then you can start thinking about an alternative path.

Just like an unenlightened person identified with the body cannot imagine how he could be the Self, similarly right now you just can't even imagine how you could be anything other than the Self, it just doesn't make any sense anymore, is that it?

@Dodo Haven't you heard about the analogy of Mary and Jane that Rupert Spira often uses? There is only one 'I'. It is Awareness's 'I' falsely identified as a limited egoic 'I'. And about the happiness thing, once again I'll refer another analogy Rupert uses. This 'I' falsely identified with any object can never find the true happiness. Only when it divests all it's limitations, that pure 'I' is happiness itself; it doesn't need to search for happiness anymore nor does it have to be grass or tree in order to find happiness. Just like a moth that rushes towards the flame can never get the flame no matter how much it craves the flame, it can only die in the flame. Similarly, the separate self can never find happiness. It can only die in happiness. Upon the death of this illusory separate self, happiness shines as it is.

@Dodo Where is this 'I' located in the body? Is the whole body 'I'? Well, does your body evaporates into non-existence if you stop thinking about this 'I' for a moment? After all, there are countless moments in your day when you're not aware of yourself. Basically, during any pleasurable state or activity we are not aware of neither the body nor the 'I'. In deep sleep, this body awareness and 'I' is gone. Does the body evaporates as well? In dreams, it feels like the same 'I' but a different body/subjectivity. How can the 'I' be the biological body? Do you take your biological body in dreams? what you are talking about, is the very definition of identification with the body. An unquestioned belief that needs to be looked at and unwired through honest inquiry. There is no solid, tangible 'I' located somewhere and sealing all the deals. There is only the redundant, intangible 'I'

That's another assumption. Gary Weber talks about this. You might wanna check out his books. All are available as free PDF as he is not into it for money or some other agenda. He calls it the outdated operating system. Yeah, no doubt as hunter-gatherers, we might have needed an 'I' when there was constant physical dangers all around. It developed in the evolutionary process. But this same 'I' now has become a debilitating virus in our operating system. Time to upgrade the system. This 'I' is only talking all day just with itself about it's own daydreams and problems. Is it really doing anything productive? No. The entire biological system is doing it's thing from pumping all your blood to scratching your itch. It would continue to do so without an 'I'. This 'I' is redundant. Also about that comment, it was a general remark. Language itself is limited and post-enlightenment living can't really be put into words. This is why they say at one point you have to be still and come see for yourself. You might like this article: http://psychologytomorrowmagazine.com/jeff-warren-neuroscience-suffering-end/

@Jack River I've found that any genuine inquiry is a perfect expression of humility. It promotes a degree of openness to whatever is present. Chasing and avoiding stuff are not genuine inquiry. They are ego's default movements. And also a genuine inquiry can't begin if this movement isn't seen properly

It was very eye opening for me as well

Just beautiful! It shows how much this path is personal and emotional rather than being intellectual.

@Jack River haha this is what self-inquiry is for. The default error the 'student' makes that he is a seeker and he now has to get a reward through Enlightenment. Self-inquiry doesn't say, go chase the Truth or God or Enlightenment. In fact, Self-inquiry talks about none of these things. It just instructs to find out this 'I' who is a seeker. And upon inquiry, it is realized that there was never such an ego self. Thus clear seeing of what is prevails

These are exactly the unquestioned assumptions that keeps ego in it's place. All animals survive and thrive in their natural habitats without a self-referential 'I'. Why do you think you won't survive? List everything you expect from this 'I'. Keep me alive, remember all the important stuff, protect this body, stay safe, don't act like a fool, make my life easy etc and etc? Now see how many of these activities does the 'I' really do? It absolutely does nothing. It COULDN'T do anything because it doesn't have any capability to do anything. It is like a beggar who lives outside the parliament and fantasizes that he is running the entire country and takes the whole credit for it by believing it. All your eating, pissing, surviving happens by billions of processes behind your conscious mind. But the 'I' pops in after everything and claims ownership of it. Gary Weber, who systematically deconstructed the 'I' and all self-referential thoughts with self-inquiry comment, ''My life seems to go so much better without an 'I' ''

You mean he might still crave for fivesomes and sixsomes...to inifinitysomes?

@Jack River Yes in that case, the 'student' is definitely more matured. That clear witnessing itself will do whatever needs to be done. For such a 'student', no more rationalizing or theory is necessary. Just silently observing. Self-inquiry leads to such a 'state' for the lack of a better term.

exactly! The purpose of Self-inquiry is to unwire those very resistance movements. One cannot stop a conditioned movement with brute force by another movement. Both would be under the same conditioned movement. That's why the teaching says, direct that movement into Self-inquiry and let it exhaust itself until....Clear seeing becomes the default state

Yes you're right. The process begins as the pursuit of the same conditioned movement. But when Self-inquiry matures, this movement is seen clearly. Long periods of no-mind and clarity are encountered. And in those silent, dis-identified waiting periods without any agenda somehow everything falls into place. It just clicks

This right here goes to the heart of the matter we are discussing. The present conditioned mind IS the Absolute Reality. That 'knowing' element of the mind IS the Absolute Consciousness. The essence of the conditioned mind which is 'knowing' and the Absolute are the same. It's just that this 'knowing' is mistakenly identified with conditioned movements. When this present conditioned mind is divested of all it's self-imposed and ignorant limitations, this very mind shines as the Absolute Self. About bypassing, I don't think it would work permanently. If it did work, then everyone would become permanently Enlightened upon hearing these arguments for the first time. It only happens once in a blue moon when the devotee is ready and guru's Silence itself is enough to awaken. Just like the pure mind went through time and identified with things, similarly it has to turn back and urwire this process...until it returns to it's original untainted state. Ramana Maharshi called it Samskaras or Vasanas (Mental tendencies). As long as these deep rooted tendencies are in place, permanent Realization won't happen.

This is why Ramana Maharshi originally prescribed self-inquiry to be conducted in an unbroken fashion...until the Self is realized. It may start as a 20 minutes practice but in the end, it has to be unbroken in order for a permanent breakthrough to come. That's the use of effort from the seeker's part. Also self-inquiry is not a thinking/intellectual/figuring out process. Self-inquiry should lead to cessation of thoughts, not more mental chatter and resistance. Winternight already gave the most lucid procedure of Self Inquiry I've seen so far which is seeking the 'I' feeling in the present experience, starting with the body. It's a very mindful observation and subtle seeking, not fantasizing and thinking and theory building.

@Jack River This is the mindbending paradox of Self-inquiry. It cannot be rationally discussed and dissected. That won't bring any sensible conclusion. Only upon personally engaging into the process rigorously, somehow all delusions are dispelled

It won't happen if self-inquiry is done consistently and diligently. Self-inquiry itself is a magical process that turns attention on itself. Normally attention is always on objects, never aware of itself. This attention on attention builds dis-identfication. Then all of ego's movements are seen for what they really are. As I saw you in another post, this is a process but not a process in time as it seems superficially. Time itself is seen as part of the movement.