Preetom

So it turns out to be God's will that not everyone or every tribe will start the journey in common plain field...?

(oops misplaced extra post)

@lmfao Yeah had them. Used to have them a lot more frequently once I started doing spiritual practices. Some of them were so excruciatingly painful and uncomfortable that resemble various religious description of hell. Other factors can be sleep deprivation(if you stay awake for 2-3 days), extreme physical exertions (too much toiling labor or sex/masturbation suddenly in one day), something hitting deeply in the psyche all of a sudden(like thinking a particular thought or playing a video game for 10 hours or watching a horror movie that scares the shit out of you before sleeping etc), or just a bad ol' tummy...

Well, look at your experience now (go along with this 8 part mini series that gives you a taste directly. See if your query is resolved better or not)

This is exactly what Nisargadatta Maharaj did in order to get enlightened. His guru gave him a very simple and short instruction(paraphrased) like, ''Stop imagining yourself to be this or that; and focus on I AM which is your own being''. NIsargadatta simply took the instruction to heart and got enlightened in 3 years just following it. He never got into any detailed intellectual analysis or exotic forms of spiritual practices. But there is one trap here that we should guard against though. 'The knowing that we are Presence itself and not the contents of experience'; we have to constantly abide in that knowing in our everyday experience, a sort of developing of wisdom-discernment aka taking our position as Awareness. NOT turn this realization into another non-dual dogma, where we go back living our auto-pilot lives and when the pain-suffering hits, we try to rationalize and desensitize our pain by repeating clever non-dual mantras like there is no doer, there is nothing to do etc. So the bottomline is, it does take tremendous effort, honesty and purification of one's intent initially for building momentum if one can ever successfully pull this off. This is the spiritual effort that the best gurus always instructed to exert.

@lmfao I experimented and came to the same conclusion as yours before! I can eat a chocolate cake for which I craved. But if I eat it very slowly and mindfully, watching what is exactly going on, my experience comes to a point where the perceptions related to eating the cake become so flat and normal; nothing fancy. But the craving feels like that cake is the solution for life at that moment! Same thing goes for pain. If I really look at a pain for a while, it becomes a neutral sensation; as if it got defanged! My hypothesis is, our cravings and aversions are direct product of unclear, fuzzy seeing; which is in turn generally product of our subconscious conditioning. Reality becomes utterly 'dead' and 'flat' if you look at it clearly without any agenda. But our unclear seeing aka our overvaluation of craving and aversion is what keeps us busy chasing the cheese..

Use honey and milk to wake up the dragon

Now we are talking. And this peace must also outlast the tumultuous ups and downs of body-mind. This peace doesn't mean that body-mind will no longer have any ups and downs

You're still putting the body-mind machine way up the pedestal. If you've read ancient texts, you know that mind itself is a subtle body made out of subtle elements. Just like your physical body will feel pain if a knife is stuck in your tummy even if your Enlightened over 9000!; the mind and emotions have it's own vulnerability as well. No body-mind is ever infallible and invulnerable. Yes there are even some whacked out case like the Buddhist Tibetian monk who burnt himself alive while sitting perfectly in meditation posture without moving an inch as a silent protest during Chinese invasion. But these are altered states of Consciousness/brain functions/Siddhis; they have nothing to do with self-realization. I watched a documentary about a little kid whose pain related motor responses don't work. He absolutely feels no physical pain. He may have a knife cut on his back and bleed for 2 hours and die but yet not know that there is an injury; which makes this condition so dangerous. Would you say this kid is the most Enlightened master? No! Similarly, mind is a body as well with it's own vulnerabilities and limits. Of course if we acknowledge body-mind for discussion's sake.

And I say this from personal experience. In fact, it was the very first breakthrough I ever had through self-inquiry. My body-mind was in a very precarious and terrible condition(if I may contrast it with regular condition). But yet, I remained untouched, still and absolutely perfect...like the eye of the tornado. That is the level of transcending of suffering we are talking about. Not the version, where you become like a desensitized zombie and never sympathize or have any feelings and emotions because at the back of your mind, you are still scared shitless about the mind reactions.

Did I ever say self-realization is NOT the end of suffering? It IS end of suffering. In fact, so end of suffering that you might cry for your daughter diagnosed with cancer and YET not suffer. You have some very naive and fantastical notions about Enlightenment; especially bringing in how body-mind should or should not react; as if Enlightenment is for the body-mind. No body-mind ever got Enlightened. It's like you're trying to measure the temperature of the Sun but you declare that the Sun is cold today just because it's a rainy day lol

Have you even clicked the play button and heard the line? ''Occasionally an old reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind. But it is at once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is burdened with a personality, one is exposed to it's idiosyncrasies and habits''

LMAO!! Don't throw your idealized version of Nisargadatta at me

A psychopath or an Alzheimer patient may also forget about his/her daughter's cancer or not give a fuck because that's how their psyche is wired. The dad could snort drugs and forget all this shit and live in perpetual 'mind numbing peace' The true master would cry for his daughter, 'suffer' along with her all the way, mourn with the family; YET not be deluded by this play for once. That would be the true test of Enlightenment.

@Blissout It's the attitude that you're holding right now that leads to fanatical cult following. With this attitude, you start glorifying that 'ONE GURU' who is the PERFECT; the GOD HIMSELF descent in human flesh. Imposing perfection on all levels and chasing that mirage for the rest of your life. We all know how those stories end up usually... Every body-mind has good days and bad days, ups and downs, stillness and chaos; just like virtually every element of nature goes through this wheel.

@Blissout You really got a super fantasized version of Enlightenment. If this is a strict parameter, then may as well just commit suicide and leave behind the dead insentient body. That flesh doll won't have ANY emotional or psychological reaction whatsoever. That would be ENLIGHTENMENT. YAY!! THE FLESH DOLL GOT ENLIGHTENED! CONGRATULATIONS!! You are fantasizing about using a software, an app or any device without EVER running into a bug or crash here and there. Realize that body and mind are machines. And they are so interdependent on basically every element of it's surrounding which is really infinite amount of parameters. There cannot be THE PERFECT body and mind. All manifestations are inherently limited and operates in cyclical up-down curves according to the laws of nature. The core of Enlightenment is seeing that this imperfection of body-mind has nothing to do with me. Enlightenment can't make the body-mind perfect. But sure you can try various strategies and self-help to optimize this machine and there is nothing wrong with that.

@Rilles Keep up the inquiry. It will happen when it's time. Lights out

I've read it. It's beautiful. Precise and worth coming back to multiple times

But the hell fire seems to be everywhere...

million dollar question...hmmm..

@winterknight Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate your patience and willingness to look at things from unusual perspectives

I've been thinking about this.. Reality/Truth is non-conceptual but yet we try to rationalize, explain and understand things in our life on our own terms. Ultimately, it goes nowhere; an answer to a question seems to bring up 10 more questions. It seems this drive for understanding is an unending maze that we aren't even aware of. Exactly like how we chase wealth, relationships after relationships, pleasure etc. on endless loop pretty much all our lives; ignoring the fact that this strategy clearly isn't flying (wakey wakey ); yet virtually no one is stopping. How is the drive for understanding any different than this? Sure it's a more refined form of drive than pursuing gross things in life. But the mechanism seems to be the same. The only way this maze can perpetuate if the inmates of the maze forget that they are into a maze and actually going nowhere; preventing them from self-exploding and thus enable them to continue the chase. Have you ever thought or seen anyone thinking ''Okay, clearly I've failed on all levels possible in my life. I give up. Completely. No matter which direction I take, I end up in the same place. I give up''

you're right. Actually Hinduism shamed sexuality a lot less than other religions I guess. It freely expressed the male-female polarity through myths, deities etc. I was pointing towards the various yoga instructions Krishna gives to Arjuna in each chapter. They sound very rigid and superhuman.. Btw do you consider Bhagavad Gita as a helpful 'non-duality' text? I think I've heard about commentaries which criticizes Bhagavad Gita as a poor non-dual text but as a fairly good religious and adventurous text. Personally, I've found texts like Ashtavakra Gita, Mandukya Upanishad, Panchadashi a LOT direct and coherent which stands the test of incisive higher reasoning into our direct experience. These texts still stand infallible because they point to our experience and we can never legitimately deny that. And thus there have been commentaries which say that Arjuna actually never got Enlightened in it's real sense. He basically replaced his previous set of limiting beliefs and morality with a more robust and wise set of understanding for life. He basically went back to his kingdom, doing his samsara business, but this time more intelligently. It's like you never lived the 'Truth'. You heard a version of 'Truth', believed in that and then tried to act like a good boy according to that as best as you could.. Plus the entire dialogue of Bhagavad Gita sounds very dualistic and full of traditional ideas of God and devotee.

The myths go in the opposite extreme as well, banning and shaming sexual interactions and reproductions. In Bhagavad Gita, some things are framed such a way that it sounds like it's impossible to realize the Self if one ever takes a foot towards a worldly life. The Upanishads were generally called 'Aranyaka', meaning a business done by renunciate sages in the forests lol. It shows that this 'Truth' actually never had a place in the mainstream world as it doesn't have any material utility in general scope. I guess that's why this 'Truth' never invaded into mainstream society even though it has been all figured out for thousands of years..

Having glimpses is only glimpses (3rd stage of glimpsing the bull). It's like little puzzles that unfold and lead to the big ending. But it can't be said to be Enlightenment. If it isn't permanent abidance, it isn't Enlightenment or realization of true Self. After Enlightenment, absolutely no doubt remains regarding what one is and what is the basis of Reality. Yeah, there can be loads of things and mysteries going on in many levels, but things do get resolved at a very fundamental level once and for all. What I'll share shows that how highly Buddhists regard Enlightenment. From preparatory stages to the climax. Stage 1-5: All about concentration building and preparing the mind. Stabilizing the turbulence of mental waves and really nothing to do with Enlightenment. These stages are all about effort after effort. Not letting the mind wander but sticking it to one point, building access concentration. All other desires and distractions melt away by negligence as you persistently strengthen the mind through the object of concentration. The progressive stages represent deeper states of access concentration and mystical fireworks(You get tons of body-mind reaction when you do mental-energetic work). Completing the 5th stage (taming the bull) represents the pinnacle of a disciplined and concentrated mind (where the bull follows you like an obedient dog. This same bull used to run off to mountains from the slightest scent of distracting thoughts and desires) Ramana Maharshi's comments regarding these stages about concentration building: When one thought is persistently held in mind, a war begins. All other thoughts try to overpower that single thought. But persisting on that specific thought at all cost results in a strong mind. (this is stage 1-5 in a nutshell) Stage 6(Riding the bull home): This is the starting point of non-duality. This is basically being aware of being aware, sinking the mind into the heart, taking attention to it's source, riding the bull to home. This is a serene state where there is no effort, whip, emotional fireworks and discipline involved. You have already passed through these things. The mind just keeps falling back into it's source. Stage 7(Bull Transcended): The mind(bull) has totally merged into it's source. It has evaporated as if it never existed. There was no bull in the first place... Stage 8 (Both Bull and Self Transcended): This is where the last vestiges of personhood get annihilated once and for all. All the self-abidance 'non-practice' finally 'clicks' something. THIS IS ENLIGHTENMENT in it's truest sense. There remains no sense of 'I am'. You're done. Done means done. No levels of Enlightenment involved! Stage 9 (reaching the source): This stage represents the adjustment the body-mind goes through after Enlightenment. There is no body-mind independently doing things to be more pure. It's more like Truth indiscriminately flooding everything. The entire mode of perception recontextualizes itself according to this Understanding. ''Too many steps have been taken returning to the root and the source. Better to have been blind and deaf from the beginning!'' - this shows that life as you knew it is gone forever. The old life feels like a distant, weak murmuring memory.. ''Dwelling in one's true abode, unconcerned with and without - The river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red'' - This points to the automatic recontextualization that takes place. Stage 10(return to society): Back to the market. Mountains are mountains again. Rivers are rivers again. Chop wood and carry water...your simple gestures, smile and silence becomes the most transformative agent for others; not your lectures on non-duality (that's the nutshell. I could elaborate each stage, breaking down each sentence pointer. But I hope you get the basic idea. It's a model after all, so no need to be too fussed over it) NOTE: You can see that how traditional systems were hardcore and prepared the body-mind solidly BEFORE Enlightenment(a super disciplined monastic life supported this strategy). So after Enlightenment, there wouldn't be much work involved. But modern advaita direct path, as it is taught, is the reverse of this process. Here, you can be Enlightened first and relatively quickly, but there would be years of slow deconditioning after that.