Preetom

A question hit me all of a sudden while watching Leo's latest Spiral Dynamics application video. Why is there so much inequality when it comes to just growth(not talking about culture or taste) around the planet? Why are basically the same biological human beings in such this vast unequal growth in the first place? You can't answer by just saying that it's because underdeveloped tribes and nations are too attached to their dogma and superstition. But why are they this way in the first place? West was also once religiously dogmatic but they upgraded in secularism, something which a middle eastern country might take 100-200 years more to achieve. 1) Is this just God's injustice that there will always be huge developmental gaps in growth among tribes in different parts of the planet for variety's sake? 2) Or does things like climate, geology, water they drink, air they breathe, their relationship with sunlight, their skin, flesh, bones and looks, language...I mean all the physical external stuff, regulate a tribe's fate and ability to adapt, grow and change MUCH MORE than we want to acknowledge? 3) Can there be legitimate studies and research correlating physical elements of nature with growth? Another question popped up while writing this post, 4) Can a particular language be inherently dogmatic and growth retarding(creating tighter paradigm locks) than other languages? @Leo Gura @Serotoninluv and others, please help me sort this one out

1) To live/move is to fuck up 2) To solve one fuck up is just another name for digging up a new, more complex fuck up 3) I don't know

Yeah this brings up the 1st question all over again. Do physical elements impact and regulate a big part of what we consider to be growth or not. Btw thanks for your insightful posts.

So it seems all this fuss to manipulate, change and grow others on human logic level IS a the driving factor which is creating more gaps and conflicts. Reminds me of Indian sage Nisargadatta saying that, ''you're intellect is a tiny product of Reality itself. How can you impact Reality with your tiny intellect?'' This has been the recurring advice of pretty much all wisest masters which is basically realizing the Truth and saving your own ass. Almost none of them proposed models and propagandas of how Reality or life on planet should or should not be. On that topic, they are all silent. It seems growth itself is a human term that perpetuates more issues with each one it solves.

Enjoy! I also love the fact that how humane, direct and obvious this is; not some more supernatural, fantastical or superhuman concepts that most people just can't stomach haha..

This is interesting to think about... how about animals? It seems that no matter which jungle you go to, a particular tribe of a particular animal is always in tuned with natural development. They look different due to where they live, but their growth seems natural. You probably won't find a pride of lions that can't hunt or are subordinate to the Ox tribe (generally speaking). Why do we humans have to fuck up so much? is it because we are so complex as a system that self-deception and backlash has to be like 1000X more than other biological systems?

Yes! I found these videos explaining things eloquently and far more directly, that I got from 5 years of studies and lots of hiccups. This right here imo, is the smoothest and most interesting way you can introduce non-duality to anyone with a little bit of open mind and willingness to listen (high stage blue and beyond). This doesn't throw you some incommunicable esoteric knowledge that you can only verify by going to a cave, or meditating for 20 years or snorting up some drugs which can shoo many people off right from the bat. This reveals what is always so obviously here right in front us but we missed just by oversight. Really grateful to @Freyah for pointing me to this thing and Darren Harding and Richard Lang for such eloquent expressions

So it turns out to be God's will that not everyone or every tribe will start the journey in common plain field...?

(oops misplaced extra post)

@lmfao Yeah had them. Used to have them a lot more frequently once I started doing spiritual practices. Some of them were so excruciatingly painful and uncomfortable that resemble various religious description of hell. Other factors can be sleep deprivation(if you stay awake for 2-3 days), extreme physical exertions (too much toiling labor or sex/masturbation suddenly in one day), something hitting deeply in the psyche all of a sudden(like thinking a particular thought or playing a video game for 10 hours or watching a horror movie that scares the shit out of you before sleeping etc), or just a bad ol' tummy...

Well, look at your experience now (go along with this 8 part mini series that gives you a taste directly. See if your query is resolved better or not)

This is exactly what Nisargadatta Maharaj did in order to get enlightened. His guru gave him a very simple and short instruction(paraphrased) like, ''Stop imagining yourself to be this or that; and focus on I AM which is your own being''. NIsargadatta simply took the instruction to heart and got enlightened in 3 years just following it. He never got into any detailed intellectual analysis or exotic forms of spiritual practices. But there is one trap here that we should guard against though. 'The knowing that we are Presence itself and not the contents of experience'; we have to constantly abide in that knowing in our everyday experience, a sort of developing of wisdom-discernment aka taking our position as Awareness. NOT turn this realization into another non-dual dogma, where we go back living our auto-pilot lives and when the pain-suffering hits, we try to rationalize and desensitize our pain by repeating clever non-dual mantras like there is no doer, there is nothing to do etc. So the bottomline is, it does take tremendous effort, honesty and purification of one's intent initially for building momentum if one can ever successfully pull this off. This is the spiritual effort that the best gurus always instructed to exert.

@lmfao I experimented and came to the same conclusion as yours before! I can eat a chocolate cake for which I craved. But if I eat it very slowly and mindfully, watching what is exactly going on, my experience comes to a point where the perceptions related to eating the cake become so flat and normal; nothing fancy. But the craving feels like that cake is the solution for life at that moment! Same thing goes for pain. If I really look at a pain for a while, it becomes a neutral sensation; as if it got defanged! My hypothesis is, our cravings and aversions are direct product of unclear, fuzzy seeing; which is in turn generally product of our subconscious conditioning. Reality becomes utterly 'dead' and 'flat' if you look at it clearly without any agenda. But our unclear seeing aka our overvaluation of craving and aversion is what keeps us busy chasing the cheese..

Use honey and milk to wake up the dragon

Now we are talking. And this peace must also outlast the tumultuous ups and downs of body-mind. This peace doesn't mean that body-mind will no longer have any ups and downs

You're still putting the body-mind machine way up the pedestal. If you've read ancient texts, you know that mind itself is a subtle body made out of subtle elements. Just like your physical body will feel pain if a knife is stuck in your tummy even if your Enlightened over 9000!; the mind and emotions have it's own vulnerability as well. No body-mind is ever infallible and invulnerable. Yes there are even some whacked out case like the Buddhist Tibetian monk who burnt himself alive while sitting perfectly in meditation posture without moving an inch as a silent protest during Chinese invasion. But these are altered states of Consciousness/brain functions/Siddhis; they have nothing to do with self-realization. I watched a documentary about a little kid whose pain related motor responses don't work. He absolutely feels no physical pain. He may have a knife cut on his back and bleed for 2 hours and die but yet not know that there is an injury; which makes this condition so dangerous. Would you say this kid is the most Enlightened master? No! Similarly, mind is a body as well with it's own vulnerabilities and limits. Of course if we acknowledge body-mind for discussion's sake.

And I say this from personal experience. In fact, it was the very first breakthrough I ever had through self-inquiry. My body-mind was in a very precarious and terrible condition(if I may contrast it with regular condition). But yet, I remained untouched, still and absolutely perfect...like the eye of the tornado. That is the level of transcending of suffering we are talking about. Not the version, where you become like a desensitized zombie and never sympathize or have any feelings and emotions because at the back of your mind, you are still scared shitless about the mind reactions.

Did I ever say self-realization is NOT the end of suffering? It IS end of suffering. In fact, so end of suffering that you might cry for your daughter diagnosed with cancer and YET not suffer. You have some very naive and fantastical notions about Enlightenment; especially bringing in how body-mind should or should not react; as if Enlightenment is for the body-mind. No body-mind ever got Enlightened. It's like you're trying to measure the temperature of the Sun but you declare that the Sun is cold today just because it's a rainy day lol

Have you even clicked the play button and heard the line? ''Occasionally an old reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind. But it is at once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is burdened with a personality, one is exposed to it's idiosyncrasies and habits''

LMAO!! Don't throw your idealized version of Nisargadatta at me

A psychopath or an Alzheimer patient may also forget about his/her daughter's cancer or not give a fuck because that's how their psyche is wired. The dad could snort drugs and forget all this shit and live in perpetual 'mind numbing peace' The true master would cry for his daughter, 'suffer' along with her all the way, mourn with the family; YET not be deluded by this play for once. That would be the true test of Enlightenment.

@Blissout It's the attitude that you're holding right now that leads to fanatical cult following. With this attitude, you start glorifying that 'ONE GURU' who is the PERFECT; the GOD HIMSELF descent in human flesh. Imposing perfection on all levels and chasing that mirage for the rest of your life. We all know how those stories end up usually... Every body-mind has good days and bad days, ups and downs, stillness and chaos; just like virtually every element of nature goes through this wheel.

@Blissout You really got a super fantasized version of Enlightenment. If this is a strict parameter, then may as well just commit suicide and leave behind the dead insentient body. That flesh doll won't have ANY emotional or psychological reaction whatsoever. That would be ENLIGHTENMENT. YAY!! THE FLESH DOLL GOT ENLIGHTENED! CONGRATULATIONS!! You are fantasizing about using a software, an app or any device without EVER running into a bug or crash here and there. Realize that body and mind are machines. And they are so interdependent on basically every element of it's surrounding which is really infinite amount of parameters. There cannot be THE PERFECT body and mind. All manifestations are inherently limited and operates in cyclical up-down curves according to the laws of nature. The core of Enlightenment is seeing that this imperfection of body-mind has nothing to do with me. Enlightenment can't make the body-mind perfect. But sure you can try various strategies and self-help to optimize this machine and there is nothing wrong with that.

@ivankiss Without referring to memory(which is thought), would there be any sense of movement or change? These things are all 'felt' in contrast, never on their own. Can it be that you experience movement preciously because you yourself never move? Can it be that you experience change because you yourself are changeless?

@Rilles Keep up the inquiry. It will happen when it's time. Lights out