Preetom

After actual enlightenment (not the new age bullshit one where everyone is already enlightened), there is no thinker of thoughts and no doer of actions. The body-mind gets progressively purified by this truth realization according to it's karma in it's own pace. Just like before enlightenment, awareness seemed to take on the finite qualities of the body-mind; after enlightenment that role shifts. The body-mind starts to get permeated with the infiniteness of awareness. Now this process may or may not look like 'development' to onlookers. But this is not something the body-mind 'does' as an agent or ego. Ratnakara was the most notorious bandit of his time. Through sadhana he realized the Self, reemerged as the sage Valmiki and wrote the epic Ramayana. A villain is never villain forever. Any judgement we make on an enlightened being(or anyone for that matter) is our own deluded projection.

When I use the word 'ego', I never mean it in a degrading or pejorative term. That's the conventional notion of ego. The ego I mention is a technical term which is synonymous to a distinct subject/experiencer/perceiver that knows or experiences other objects. This object knowing consciousness is called ego. In other words, ego is what we take ourselves to be. Ramana Maharshi called this ego as the primal I-thought. Nisatgadatta Maharaj called it the sense of I AM. This ego's very mechanism is to know objects other than itself. Thus it is objective knowledge. It can't afford to know itself. It can only survive by knowing other things but itself. So the very instruction of self-inquiry or any direct path instruction is to make this ego shine it's attention on itself, rather than letting it shine attention on other objects which it is doing 24/7 in waking and dream states. In deep sleep, this ego shuts down temporarily and thus all the objects it knows subsides along with it as well for a while. Then again after some time, this ego springs back up due to it's latent tendencies to know/experience other objects which is waking or dream states. And so this cycle continues. What is called conventional 'physical' death is only just another round of deep sleep for ego to rest for a while and then spring back up again with a new body to start experiencing objects again(just like the ego takes on new bodies in every dream. Even our waking body is new every single day, never exactly the same). What I am saying is that this very object knowing consciousness aka ego IS suffering. It is an optical illusion. The pure Consciousness we are, never knows anything other than it's own presence/being. It has no subject-object duality. So whenever this optical illusion of object knowing ego arises out of pure Consciousness, it carries this chronic inherent suffering in itself so that it can merge into it's original source again. Just like an extended rubber band carries inherent reflex to revert back to it's original form if it is given a chance. This suffering/search for happiness/dis-satisfaction is the constant call that the the ego feels within itself to sink into the source of God. This is why ego=suffering. Yes the cessation of all subject-object duality. In other words, cessation of all objective knowledge once and for all. All the 'buts' put after this cessation of ego are thoughts. We have no way of knowing how it is gonna turn out, except for going to that placeless place ourselves. So better not have such notions if you are serious about self-realization. Let's not put the cart before the horse. Just remind yourself the power of re-contexualization. The ''self+body+mind'' complex you talk about is a way of seeing. It cannot remain the same if it is re-contexualized. Notice how all your body, life, world experiences get re-contextualized into a 'blank state' in deep sleep. Does that shift happen instantaneously or does it go through a step by step process that you are aware of?

@Cortex : How Much Pleasure Enlightenment Gives You? @Leo Gura : here is a sneak peek

@Guided ''life is suffering'' is 100% true if you mean, life= a separate embodied being Every single movement of this separate being is to relieve it's suffering, from birth to birth, from start to finish. 'suffering', ''search for happiness", "ego" are different names for the same thing : overlooking what one really is. So it turns out that suffering is really an optical illusion of one consciousness just like ego/separation is. The house builder quote signifies the permanent destruction of the ego/subject, the full import of self-realization or Enlightenment. It can never arise again as a subject to experience other, distinct 'objects'. So there is no one left on whose behalf cravings can manifest.

Leo reading your posts in this thread, it seems unwise to discuss Enlightenment and 'development' in the same topic in the first place. Enlightenment is supposed to be the cure of all cures. It cures the dream by waking up from the dream. Now the racism, sexism, closemindedness etc that you mention, aren't they purely cultural/historical things? It seems like we always love to assume our present moral standard as some ideal version of reality. I mean where do we draw the line here? Sexism, xenophobia etc. was the norm and ''unspoken law'' back then. Now they sound 'criminal', 'undeveloped', 'barbaric' compared to 21st century visions. Let's say 100 years from now, the world will have moral and institutional laws about how we must not abuse ants. They might look upon us as unenlightened barbarians who didn't care for ants (silly example I know, but you never know what sort of weird shit is coming). So this whole post-enlightenment development thing, isn't it a very loose, culturally bound term? Enlightenment is real and an actual 'thing' with actual definition which points to something actual and transcends everything. This post-enlightenment or shadow business, it really has nothing to do with enlightenment. It is to be done by anyone and everyone who wants to be in the front row in the visions and moral standard of their day and age. It is literally not any different than learning to earn 10 million dollars. It's a 'gain' that one should be able to learn about, work towards that conceptual goal and attain it for him/her. I mean In the days of the Buddha, the women's right, LGBTQ etc wasn't even on the radar lol

@Wisebaxter The thing is, the notion of ''no free-will'', ''there is nothing to do'', ''you are already god'' etc. are some of the final consequences/ramifications of non-dual self-realization. In the direct path(just being aware of being aware), we don't have any process or goal. We start at the finish line and stay put there...until there is no urge to move from that place. It's a path of being. But in all indirect paths (all other yogas, meditations etc), a long arduous and often multilayered maps, goals, milestones etc are provided and the aspirant is supposed to go through it. It's an arduous doing process, and no non-dual 'truths' mentioned in the first sentence has any relevance to this path. Imagine someone has to do 2 hours of mantra meditation everyday and he is also feeding himself with no free will philosophy. This just ain't gonna work. So long story short, in indirect paths there is no place for these non-dual truths beforehand. But they sure have a place for the direct path because here ''the starting point-process-goal'' is the same. Being aware of being aware. Now if you are on the direct path, how much free will do you need to be aware? Aren't you already aware? If you are aware/being, you are awakening. As simple as that.

@SageModeAustin Good morning!

I think he is saying that you are a fuzzy blob of cream that looks like cat from outside

@Mulky @Rilles This is how I babysit lol

Why are you so attached to sucking on ego's tits? You needed that once upon a time to keep yourself alive. Not anymore. Let's see how it goes, but purity of intent is super important.

@Jkris @tedens @Rilles I challenge you to get enlightened by 2019!

LOL there is no 'we' in self inquiry. Okay I'll try to explain it in PG terms as best as I can, see if a wisdom tooth or two grow inside your mouth When you are doing self-inquiry, you are looking for something that is absolutely real, something that really exists. But what is real existence? For something to truly exist, it must fulfill 2 conditions. 1) It must exist right now 2) It must be self-aware. In other words, it cannot depend on anything else BUT itself to know it's own existence. Now if something fulfills only the first condition and not the second, then that thing is not truly existent at all. It becomes an imaginary, conceptual, unreal existence; in other words not existent at all. It is not primary truth in the strict sense because it needs another reality to validate it's own existence. That was the theory part. Now look at your hand. This right here is the key! Are YOU aware of the hand? or is the hand aware of YOU? Notice that any experience, even the most subtle objective experiences, are NOT self-aware. They 'seem' to exist or to be present in this moment, but they all need YOU to validate their existence. That means whatever objective phenomena you experience is unreal existence. Notice that in the entirety of your experience, YOU(whatever that is) are the only self-aware being. Only YOU possess that tinge of self-awareness. The self-inquiry I'm talking about (as Ramana prescribed it), the purpose of it is to bypass or not being bothered with any unreal existence, but only following/coming back to/seeking that flavor of self-awareness that you know yourself as I AM...as many times as necessary...over and over again. It literally has an unique flavor because only YOU possess that. It is also ever present. In no situation, this self-awareness ceases to exist. The body, mind, world none of it has that tinge of self-awareness. So next time you feel 'heavy/solid' due to excess baby fat, ask yourself, am I aware of solidness? or is solidness aware of I? Relax your attention on anything that is unreal existence(which is every phenomena you experience). And only keep on being acquainted with that unique flavor of self-awareness. Keep drinking the honey of I AM. Once you get sufficiently familiar with that unique taste, oh boy you couldn't easily loose it even if you tried. Keep drinking the honey like a good boy and one day you might die from obesity. You can then call that enlightenment and maybe celebrate here lol

Babies shouldn't be left alone with a bottle of drink or a gun. Might go against forum guidelines

@Rilles Btw I've found a really potent but subtle technique that bypasses any confusion or obstruction in self-inquiry. Works like a charm all the time! It is also THE key for holding self-awareness for extended period of time But I'm afraid you might be 'underage' for that

One day you are gonna wake up and be thankful to the toddler for NOT having any fancy experience.

No thread on self-inquiry will ever be complete without this gem. Happiness and the art of being by Michael James. Probably the most direct and cleanest interpretations of Sri Ramana Maharshi's teaching in English language. http://www.happinessofbeing.com/Happiness_and_the_Art_of_Being.pdf This is the 4th edition. I completed the 1st edition. Thank you Michael for your invaluable contribution. Some of the greatest things in life are indeed free, or more accurately priceless!

Yes. Only enlightenment can bring the totally frictionless life. This really goes to the heart of the matter. Why do you think you need to read books in the first place? Because self-help gurus brainwash you? Go back and live your old life with it's old pleasures. You probably won't wake up from it anyway unless you get thoroughly frustrated with it. Maybe then, you'd open up a possibility to authentically want something high conscious.

The ego/subject that arises, the world it perceives and the God/mechanism/science on which this entire system works; this ego-god-world trinity arises and collapses simultaneously. Trying to figure out how come science works is already assuming an independent, objective world. But there is no such world without an ego to perceive it and the God/mechanism to sustain that system. Does the waking state science work in the dream? No! Because in dream there is a new trinity of ego-god-world. Thus there can't be any objective science ever because there is no independent, objective world. Me trying to question and conceptualize the intelligence of God with which this world/maya is made of, is itself a tiny aspect of that maya. And no ego would see and accept this without putting up a fight. It's like the water inside the stomach of a little fish in ocean is deluding itself by thinking that it is figuring out the entire hydrodynamics of the ocean from it's own little position. Nothing wrong with using science to make the dream more pleasant, but to conjure up a dream and then trying so hard to validate that dream is probably the most deluded form of tail chasing in the history of tail chasing!

@Anton Rogachevski Thanks for sharing. Awesome thread!

Sashaj you need this. See if it helps a bit or not

If enlightenment is the perfect self-knowledge, then the question comes if psychedelics could give such self-knowledge. Not knowledge about things the self knows, but clear knowledge about itself.

I disagree with this. It could be said that false/arbitrary 'ideas' of enlightenment is the biggest obstacle for seekers

If you aren't interested or skeptical about enlightenment, then that's your preference. Please don't discourage those who are interested. Now we are going somewhere. So it seems that what needs to happen is that one needs to investigate this 'self' thoroughly. This 'self', which knows everything in experience but has no clear knowledge of itself. Doesn't this sound fishy? It's like a professor that teaches math to everyone but has no clear knowledge of math himself! Would he be a genuine or a fake professor?

Does it put a new light on your definition of enlightenment now? What needs to actually happen for enlightenment to spark?