Mips

I just finished listening to @Leo Gura’s excellent video ‘what is actuality’. I’m fairly rooted in the present anyway, due to doing meditation. All the same, I got a lot out of the video - I stayed with only being in reality. Then I pondered that everything is consciousness. I happened to be looking at the bathroom sink & I got a flash that the sink was just consciousness. That flash was scary as it would totally take away the reality of how I see things, so I recoiled (not by choice). In the moment I thought I might actually get psychologically damaged in some way if I were suddenly stuck fully immersed in that seeing. I think to go fully into that understanding would be a huge loss and difficult change. Is there a way to make this process easier, and is there anything anyone can say that would be a light at the end of the tunnel when this happens?

During the conversation a few years ago between Martin Ball & @Leo Gura, Martin suggests it’s possible to get permanently enlightened via taking 5-meo periodically. Is this the case? Can it permanently raise consciousness into a much higher state and/or give higher realisations on a permanent basis, or is it mostly temporary? i.e. it shows what’s possible but doesn’t create permanent shifts? All assuming there’s a regular meditation practice along side. The reason I’m asking is if I should bother. I’m an avid meditator and practice meditation and body awareness for maybe 6 hours a day. I’ll possibly try 5-Meo a couple of times just to get a glimpse, but can it really be used as a tool for permanent enlightenment? And if not, what’s the point beyond showing us what’s possible with regular practice?

Some great answers, thanks so much guys ??

Thanks for this - but from what I can gather, in the process of permanently awakening from “natural’ awakening without psychedelics, these seeings *are* supposed to be permanently realised, in contrast with a chemical which at least you know is temporary.

Yes this exactly, fear of it being permanent & not being able to handle it.

I’m happy to use psychedelics, in fact I’m about to start seriously using mushrooms with a guide to clear trauma. So not against them at all, it’s just that I had this without them as a part of waking up through meditation practice alone. Why do I want to awaken is a difficult one. I’m driven to it to get over fear of death & I feel it’s something that needs to be done for me or I’ll be disappointed with my life. Maybe that’s not the best reasons, I have a desire for truth too, but a lot of fear in the process. A teacher in my youth put the fear of god into me regarding waking up.

I was grokking this without any psychedelics. I have a feeling as it’s through my normal waking up process, from practice not drugs, that it is likely to be a more permanent change. This is what’s scary as it means things aren’t real in the way I thought they were - big shift. I’ll have to face and accept that as it’s a part of waking up. All I’m looking for is a way to transition more easily. i.e. how quickly does it get easy over time etc. And does this mean you lose the perceived reality of your family etc? I didn’t go into it for long enough to find that out, it was just a flash. But I was seeing that the sink was just my perception so it lost all its reality as a ‘thing’.

I saw this solution before on the forum, I think it must have been you. I’m gutted I can’t do this, mdma triggers my epilepsy. Thanks for the input, though, much appreciated.

:):) I'm thinking perhaps a good while with 'standard' psychedelics like LSD/Mushrooms to clear trauma/shadow stuff, then 5-meo down the line for the transcendent experience. Doing my first mushroom trip in 20 years in a couple of weeks with a psychedelic coach to learn proper preparation & integration.. 5-meo one day perhaps. Maybe by then someone will find a way to make it less terrifying/dangerous. Or perhaps another more approachable substance that does the same job.

@Sincerity Wrote a great post the other say in a similar thread, coincidentally: "It's gonna be much harder. But not impossible. (btw, define enlightened) I guess You could say it's like this: psychedelics provide understanding and groundwork provides embodiment. It's kind of theory (but experienced directly) vs practice. Both are important. Psychedelics are AMAZING for showing You what's possible, states You would never be able to access with traditional methods. Also they help open You up, help You temporarily go beyond your fears and attachments, bring stuff to the surface, all that. Without psychedelics your groundwork might be wrong, misguided, uninspired. Without groundwork You are, well, ungrounded. The theory doesn't stick in your mind and make a difference for your everyday life. It doesn't change You on a deep level. In theory You don't need psychedelics but in practice I think You do. If You want to go really far." Good response, a combo is perhaps the answer, with a very deep, dedicated meditation practice.

@Breakingthewall Do you feel equanimity in all situations, untouched by change and adversity as @Jodistrict alluded to?

Interesting, two different viewpoints from two who've both done a good few trips. @Breakingthewall - so do you feel this infinity in your everyday consciousness on a daily basis as a very advanced meditator would? And roughly how many times did you do it before this became a reality? And how often?

Psychedelic coaches (and most others) disagree, I’d be careful if you’re doing that unless it’s microdosing. Doing even moderate doses of any psychedelic several times a week on an ongoing basis would be a very bad idea. Unless you’re talking about microdosing of course, but that wouldn’t raise conscious like meditation does.

Yes but a decent amount of integration is needed in between trips so you can’t trip all the time. Meditation can be done almost continually in some form or another.

Interesting, sounds like it does make a significant permanent change to your baseline consciousness, no? And does repeated use add to that cumulatively?

Deleted post.

Perhaps I misspoke about Martin and I don’t mean to point to anyone else. I know this is a recurring theme in this field though.

This is *very* interesting - I’ve followed some of your posts before, I appreciate the input here. This is something I’m curious about & I might make a thread about it. This is something I found in a post on the 5-meo-dmt forums: ‘Many people become more egocentric and inflated after their "death" instead of the opposite... What do you think about that? James Oroc writes in his Tryptamine Palace: The effect of LSD on the ego has been likened to the effect of hard exercise on muscle. LSD shreds the ego, but—just as a muscle rebuilds larger and stronger after being “torn down” by hard exercise—so too can the ego actually strengthen after years of repetitive high-dosage LSD use. This would explain a lot about the egomaniacal blowouts of the apparent leadership of the “psychedelic movement"...’ It seems to me that effect is present with Martin Ball and certain others. This is the exact opposite of where I want to be going..

This is a question for @Leo Gura really. I’ve just read the instructions for self realisation on the website, which I’ve included below. Years of doing this for 60 minutes a day would be a huge task, especially as my family life allows for a couple hours of meditation/body awareness a day and not much else. Now we’re almost 7 years after that post, having taken your extensive journey with 5-Meo, would you now say it’s possible to replace these years of self enquiry with multiple ever-deepening 5-meo trips? Instructions: Leo's Patented () Step-By-Step Process To Become Enlightened: Find a quiet, comfortable place to sit alone. (You don't need to sit cross-legged.) Turn off your smart phone and disconnect from all distractions Set a digital timer for 60 minutes Now sit silently and start to genuinely wonder: "What am I if I'm not the body?" Do NOT meditate! Sit and carefully observe your direct experience. Notice that direct experience is THE ONLY THING you have of reality. Nothing else is real. Realizing this should make you very "present". Try to locate yourself within direct experience. Be very specific and clear with yourself: What are you? Are you a foot? A hand? A face? A mind? A brain? The envelop of the skin? The picture of yourself in the mind's eye? A feeling in the chest? What? Seriously! WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU????????????? Notice that anything you might point to as being "your true self" cannot be true, because that's just another experience arising. Here's the logic of it: Firstly, it isn't constant. It fades in and out throughout the day, so it cannot be you. Secondly, you are observing it, so it cannot be you because "you" are the one doing the observation. So again, WHAT ARE YOU? Open your mind to the possibility that you are mistaken about being a human body or mind. Just sit there and keep genuinely wondering about what you really could be. Try to locate the one who's perceiving things. Do not philosophize or come up with theories. Focus 100% on what your direct experience is telling you. This is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL!!!!!!!! The bulk of the work happens right here at this step. You have to slowly become aware that all your thoughts and ideas and feelings about "you" are not really you. They are just symbols and stories. For example: notice that the image of your body that you have in your mind is NOT actually your body! It's just an image! And the same goes for the feelings that make up your body. Those feelings are real, but they are not actually you! As any theories arise of what you think you are, notice that what that is, is a thought! And no thought can be you because you are the one perceiving the thought, and also because your existence does not depend on any particular thought's existence. Notice you don't cease to exist in between thoughts. Just sit and keep doing this for 60 minutes without getting distracted in irrelevant thoughts. As your mind wanders off track (and it will wander a lot) don't beat yourself up. Just bring your focus back on the self-observation. After 60 minutes, stop and notice what happened. Notice if your mind feels "elevated" or more aware. Frustration and confusion are OF COURSE going to arise. Do NOT be discouraged by frustration or confusion. Believe it or not, these are signs of progress. Do not expect instant results. You must be very methodical and patient like a crocodile. Repeat this process every day for at least 60 minutes for the next few months. Be very patient. It will take several months just to start to get your bearings straight. And by that I don't mean you will become enlightened. I mean you merely begin to realize the magnitude of your ignorance. In this time span of 3 months -- let's say -- you will get a strong sense that it really isn't possible to locate yourself. This may seem like you've failed, but actually this is a huge advance. Now you've finally started to realize that you've never really met yourself before. Now the journey towards enlightenment can begin in earnest! Just keep doing the process without discouragement. At some point, your mind will crack and you will surrender to the realization that there's no one home. That life has always run with you. And BAAAAAMMMMM!!!!!!! Enlightenment has occurred! Notice, I did not say YOU got enlightened. Rather, enlightenment has occurred.

Ahh ok - so does 5-Meo not raise your consciousness permanently at least to a degree? Or is it always just something that shows you the way rather than permanently raising your baseline consciousness and providing anything lasting?

Very spooky experience for me, watching that. My old teacher from 25 years ago did *exactly* those hand movements in a body awareness free movement that would help you get very silent & present. Totally weirded me out as that’s the first time I ever saw someone do it since. I wonder if there’s another precedence for it or if it comes from some established practice. Her teachings were incredibly close to yours. Much more so than anyone I’ve seen. @Space You posted while I was typing. Maybe this is it then, a natural spontaneous movement. My teacher had these movements without drugs, she was very awake.

I’m sensing that some people on the forum are putting Leo on a pedestal and idolising him. Not meaning to be rude or judge, especially as I’ve done the same with a teacher when I was young, But from my experience I can say it’s unhealthy. It’s not my place to assume I know what Leo thinks, but I suspect he doesn’t want that & just wants people to hear the teachings and wake up.

Apologies, this is a newbie question (I’m fairly new here). What’s the most direct method for deconstructing everything?

In the event that I’ll not be able to take 5-MEO due to my epilepsy, which of the non-tryptamines is the most likely to be able to get to that place? I’m thinking LSD, shrooms etc.

@flowboy Ahh ok, thanks for that.