Natasha Tori Maru

Depends how you approach dating. All my best, deepest and longest lasting relationships were with men who I was great friends with prior. I still love those men (even if not romantically) and speak to them regularly. I approach it like friendship; I see one friend for coffee on a Tuesday, squeeze in an impromptu river walk with another Saturday morning etc. Whatever I can do to keep up connection and mutual care/fun. I just do the same with dating, as I firmly believe establishing a basic friendship is the fertile soil for a great relationship. I am slow to warm up, my feelings and attraction develop over time. I like to see men in different situations & experiences and how we both react separately, and then contrast this. I like to allow attraction to develop alongside knowledge of the person. I don't necessarily think "You need to be friends first", more that a strong romantic relationship usually benefits from the qualities of a good friendship. This method avoids some pitfalls I fell into when younger in less mature relationships - I get to prioritise liking the person before I idealise them and it assists me in observing character as attraction develops. I get to test compatibility through normal, ordinary life and I get to witness interactional patterns over time as opposed to isolated behaviour. When I was younger I was much more inclined to fall for my idea of a person's potential, or my own fantasy a life with them.

... when you don't understand wtf you are doing Certainty is NOT a proxy for strength and disagreements aren't a dominance contest. It is a nice way to invalidate first person knowledge and creates a wonderful little self-sealing psychological model. Mind reading, rewarding one's own projection, discouraging honest and genuine curiosity. Bad frame control makes any sort of repair process difficult while suppressing reciprocal emotions. Causing nothing more than misunderstanding and division. The opposite of connection - what relationships are all about. It is the essence of performative masculinity. Nothing screams "low on the totem pole" more. It also selects for women who tolerate being overridden (bad boundaries and sense of self). You push way women who value maturity over hierarchy, women who can distinguish confidence from rigidity, women who don't need a man to tell them who they are, women who don't reward status games & appreciate being challenged but not overridden. Women that want to be encountered and not just emotionally dissected - women who want to be met with emotional intimacy. Women who genuinely find vulnerability more attractive that invulnerability. Good frame holding doesn't require you to actually control someone else's frame.

There he is Appreciate the input

There might be some gentleman around here who know about how it works in a beneficial way Thinking of maybe @aurum As someone on the receiving end of it done poorly - it feels like someone trying to force control and appears transmits low intelligence, stubbornness and insecurity.

For someone who submitted such a poor research thesis for his PhD, I cannot say I am surprised AI was used in such a lazy way with very little review (broken down in the video). I think the overall points Mike makes encourage much greater attachment to the physical body, and there isn't enough emphasis on "this body matters, so I will look after it". The issue isn't caring about the body - but making the body into the foundation of identity / value / psychological security. Similar crossover to some of the more problematic extreme views within the looksmaxxing movement (hardmaxxing). I don't think it is good to encourage our wellbeing, identity, worth or security to depend on our bodies being a certain way.

I'm on it boss. Master origami pretzel mode myself into perfection. Conditioning? Dissolved

🤣🤣🤣 Get ready

This thread is the definition of unhinged ⊙⁠.⁠☉

I don't want to straight pathologise him; but he really displays a lot of the markers for body dismorphia

I see that there are women who do play by the paradigm he operates from. I simply don't fit that. It's a flaw to flatten an entire sex down into generalisations with no nuance.

I get that, but AION isn't trying to understand anything about me. He is trying to force me to fit into his model of how women work, and when I claim that's not me, that's not how I work, he is incapable of accepting that claim. This is why I think it's weird. And mansplany. And once again applying a sweeping generalisation to all women and how they work. No nuance. Just "all woman work that way"

I don't know what this is about. It seems confused. You don't know any of my wants or needs from men??? I never said or made this explicit. I never claimed life wasnt fair or complained about it. You can have your needs. And it's perfectly fine to want to be part of status hierarchies. I am saying I don't go for those guys. It's your choice not to believe it. You express so much indignation because I don't fit your model. I just don't fit your model.

Not quite, I probably didn't formulate my point clearly enough. I’m not arguing that a persons understanding of their own inner experience should automatically be prioritised over another persons interpretation (or that self-report is infallible). My point is much narrower: when we have an inference about someone’s internal state, and that person tells us our inference doesn't match their actual experience, that should be treated as evidence worth considering. It should prompt some healthy doubt about whether our model is accurate (hence why I also raised about gathering information and testing against current models + updating if needed). They may be wrong about themselves, and we may be wrong about them. Neither position should be treated as automatically infallible. But in this specific case, given forum history and context (always asserting how "things are for women" or how "I am", lack of openness in this domain, lack of enquiry or probing questions, demonstrated inability to update models or drop frame, and general uncharitable engagement) my position is well founded.

Can you quote me, or give me some more of your interpretation here? It could simply be that context was lost in the back and forth, because this originally was about a specific interaction with history. I could possibly have branched off in a way that isn't specific to the initial interaction.

So my claim there is that it should be something to be considered. Healthy doubt to test our knowing. This is just a normative/epistemic claim and part of critical thinking. You don't think this is necessary?

I agree with this!

Such a naughty one, this one 😈 NGL I feel this is a result of the dairy industry's influence

Feel free to elaborate.

No, not necessarily. I never said you cannot infer and be accurate. If you read my passage again, I explicitly grant that inference is legitimate. Inference is fine; treating it as knowledge is a problem.

You can believe whatever you want via whatever inference or whatever heuristic you have developed. But it is still inferred. Not known. It is a belief. My heuristic for knowing AION has no idea how I respond internally is his continual and systematic misunderstanding of me throughout our entire history of the forum. The arrogance of thinking we understand someone's internal responses better than they do must also be inspected. This rolls back into having charitable and good faith discussions. There's another distinction underneath this: holding a model of someone vs remaining receptive to evidence that your model is wrong. Models of others are provisional until we have further evidence. AION has a model of how he thinks I would respond. That's fine. But I supplied direct evidence about my actual response, and instead of treating that as information capable of updating his model, he dismissed it. So in this instance it is reasonable to know I (and my internal responses) am being misunderstood.

Perhaps that is the intention (to display his knowledge around general female tendencies) - but the rhetoric used changes the entire statement. And the rhetoric used is to make an assessment about how I work without consideration of outliers and the great variation in people's psychology. AION moved from describing a population-level tendency to making a personal psychological claim about me, while simultaneously dismissing my own report about myself. If you inspect the phrasing: "I know your internal response better than you know you do." Also note - "doubt that" doubts what I personally asserted about myself and how I work. I am being told how I work. There is no listening to what is being said. Compare that to a statement that would not be so personally targeted: The above would be a more nuanced display of general knowledge & tendencies of female psychology. _____ It is fine to make general statements about how some women work. But it is a trap to think all women work the same way. Just as it would be as unfair to say all men are simple slaves to their sex drives and will abandon their wives at the first sniff off younger puss.

@Valach haha Omg! Again trying to tell me how I feel or how I work! How can you not see this? Literally mansplaning. Surely you are aware enough to see how weird you are being?

I wonder if Mike had this in mind when he wrote the book The Penis Has Entered Its Filler Era I love me some snark 😈

Hell yeah - I've been into weights, running, cycling etc for 22 years. As long as you approach with intensity, vary and challenge the body and do cardio and weights you'll be firing on all cylinders. That's 22 years of habit. It's so reflexive I don't think I just do it before I even realise I started. Like getting in the car to go to work or grabbing tp on the toilet, you unconsciously just do it. I'll say though it's sensible to have a balanced wholefood plant based diet with plenty of healthy fats. You can get by on basics, but if you balance and research your needs you can feel a great difference when you get it right. Especially fats. Mind calories and hit protein goals. And chew your food motherfuckers! A lot ! Your boating will go away 😄

This is so weird. You have such a strange take on me based on your seperate beliefs and narratives. I just don't care about all these things. I know some of your values are status and acceptance (external approval). I can only guess you are projecting these onto others (and myself). I suspect I operate so far our of your paradigm you struggle to make sense of me. Owen is so far away from anything I would want, desire or be satisfied with. You are also constantly telling me how I feel and think in your posts. It's weird man.