Natasha Tori Maru

Insisting our view is the correct one, putting others down when they do not align. Pretending this is done for others own good. That there is virtue behind the actions. To teach. Leo does this. And so are others in this thread. Interesting.

@AtmanIsBrahman you are just repeating a claim. Can you please support it? How are you personally seeing that people weren't analysing each part of the face 40 years ago? Can you please supply some research, or historical timelines for the development behind looksmaxing? Do you realise 40 years ago was 1986? Photoshop and it's effects have been replicated with cosmetics for a long, long time. Millenia timescales. Can you show me some data that reports all men agree to the same nose being attractive, the same face dimensions, the same geometry? How do you explain beauty preferences that differ across culture and the data available there? Can you show me data that confirms all people agree that certain celebrities are attractive? That would substantiate "objective" a bit more. Repeating statements isn't building as case.

@AtmanIsBrahman Beauty is not so rigid as to be objective. Can you show me some historical data and links to support none of this existed prior to you encountering it as trend? Can you tell me where the basis for these rules came from? Can you tell me how long they existed for, prior to adoption to faces? Can you give me some evidence to support that others didn't use any of these concepts previously? If you could also share how you came to the conclusion these principles made for 'better aesthetics'? How did you get there from the principles? How exactly do these principles enhance appearance? What elements of beauty are they engaging? How are you deciding what looks better? Who is deciding this? How does this system account for subjective preference?

I do shit (shit#1) - then shit (shit#2) occurs afterwards. Shit#1 and Shit#2 appear to be associated. But in reality, all I can say is one shit is happening then another. I am making a connection between the two shits - via inference - up in my head? I got to this based on determinism / free will and reviewing this thread: Confused with free will I don't think I can say anything else other than "I observe some pattern of shit, some regularities of said shit, and some sequences of shit" Correct me if I am wrong - but I am making this connection up?

Tell me your thoughts - most welcome. @Jirh How so you operate in the world, in terms of agency? I view myself as simply taking action when the highest probability for a certain outcome arises, to possibly affect a desirable outcome. I move as if I have no ultimate control, and I am at the mercy of any possibility that may arise. I aim to accumulate the wisdom to know when to act, and this is all. Lower stress because there isn't an attachment to outcome. Surprise when things go my way. But to conceptualise cause is my own inference, and that 'happenings' just occur. WHAT. I realise all I have been doing is noticing sequences, patterns and trends/regularity/frequency. And acting based on my accumulated feedback from experience in reality. I don't want to think about it too much because I feel as if it is just... MAGIC. Everything just. HAPPENS.

@LordFall You have a solid amount of life experience and attending to what is relevant and highest priority - so this naturally means you have the wisdom to know when to stop, when to pivot and reallocate resources and when diminishing returns take effect. When we reach this stage of development - these ingrained good habits become so natural to us, it can appear to be simple & intuitive. But when you take the lid off and approach from a less experienced persons mindset - there are many aspects to consider that mean that one size doesn't fit all. And peril can be close without critical thinking. Really questioning and critically analysing a method or concept helps others find where they personally align with a subject. tl;dr Expertise / experience often squishes complexity down into intuition. But that intuition is built on countless judgments, mistakes, and refinements that newer people haven't yet learned and internalized. Critical analysis helps fill the gap, rather than simply asking others to trust the conclusion. And taking on some conclusion without thinking is one of the largest pitfalls in modern society.

Is it straight forward? How far do you take this? Does everyone need to value this? Where are diminishing returns taking affect? How does substance work into this? How do you know your potential? What markers indicate when you cap potential? What are the limits to just appearance having an effect on reality? Does this affect anything other than base impression and treatment? How do you qualify it's direct, causative affect on outcome? What does it affect? How long for? What is this doing psychologically, if potential is limitless? When does seeking become anxiety? How do you know when to stop? How do you determine how much effort to put in? How much resources should go to this endeavour? I can think of more. So, is it straightforward? Love the process. Not the outcome. Otherwise it's an endless desire loop that can breed dissatisfaction with the now. With being.

@Jodistrict appreciated 💫🙏🏻

@Sugarcoat right, so then I riffed off your point 😃

Armchair psychology.

Ever noticed that once you are aware of something, when you care less about it - you get better at it? The concept of "maxing" is the flaw. An endless striving loop. Awareness is all you need, but giving too many fucks is going to trap you in an anxious loop from hell. Not to mention, no one is attending to what @Sugarcoat raised: by telling yourself you need to become or be or do something to get "it" (whatever it may be, in this case, being good looking) - you are actually reinforcing you are not it. Not good looking, need to be. It's no secret looks matter. But maximizing? Endless striving? "Maxing" is the issue. It's a warning this can slide into bad things. Not for all. Not always. Be be aware. Looks optimising. Cool. Watch attachment to the material. It's the human fallacy of "more is better" that can be smuggled into the concept. I say, watch out for that!

A fun prompt I found that was sort of revelatory, as I didn't expect the reply: "Tell me what assumptions I have repeated so often that you now treat them as fact when talking to me" No obligation to post replies, but below was mine:

@LordFall Women have engaged in looksmaxing for millenia. It's a substantial part of their interactions with each other. And consumer culture. My point is - this isn't new. It's not revolutionary. The majority of people don't "avoid talking about it"

Let's take it seriously!! https://youtu.be/WLsHZznqrMY?si=_ZNuG_SCWz1oKPs6

E X A C T L Y excellent lesson, glad to be of assistance 😃

@AtmanIsBrahman I am saying it genuinely appears you are assuming others don't know looks effect how others perceive you. Do you think emphasising this is for the good? What could it be achieving that is negative? What positive? What do you think are long term issues?

You've been pushing this narrative for a while. It could possibly appear as if the assumption is we do not know.

Hashimoto's. I am lucky to, otherwise share @Elliott's experience. But two of my close family members have motor neurone disease. It's hard.

This is salient. There are tons of negatives to aging. Even if we drum up a list (which would be easy, imo) I sort of wonder what sort of weight each point would carry against your statement above (personal for everyone). Because it moves toward a sort of equanimous peace and gratitude based state of being. Which isn't guaranteed either, but powerful. Man, the pain of getting old. Like, literally pain - that gets me. I think it is short sighted putting too much weight on the aesthetics of aging as a negative. It's mostly done by those who are too young to yet feel their health erode and pain arise. Idgaf about saggy tits if my basic existence is punctuated by pain and suffering. Poor health / chronic medical issues. Quality of life is priority for me, over longevity.

Can you brainstorm up some good things about aging?

I think I'd try to approach this from the angle that the main points make a case for "cult like structure", but not the cult criteria. I think the cult criterias of coercive control, punishment for leaving, isolation from outsiders (physical and mental), financial exploitation & suppressing of dissent (especially in later eras of actualized.org) could be looked at deeper. I case might be made that perhaps at one stage actualized.org fit the cult model better and has slowly evolved away from most of the detrimental cult aspects.

@Wilhelm44 would take time to gather data points I imagine. @zurew's evidence, premise and conclusion is solid. I thought about countering it, but I cannot hit all angles comprehensively. The narcissistic angle is an interesting one. I was looking up studies regarding development of narcissistic defence mechanisms and traits in response to being a public, online social media figure earlier. How facing constant critique / feedback might cement the ego and calcify thinking patterns. But this only serves to argue Leo could change and he didn't have any personality disorder as a fit (ie his reactions online were habitually developed). Constant gaslighting has great effects on the psyche (especially regarding ones grip of reality ie psychosis + psychedelics). I also considered mapping a timeline of Leo's posts as linked by Zurew, in an attempt to track a pattern illustrating the rise in his egoic and arrogant statements and look at timelines between his largest expletive episodes. More to track growth to see if Leo's behaviour had become more grounded with time. When he was taking peak psychedelics, when his most ungrounded claims were being made. When he took longer breaks etc. A structured timeline. But none of this goes toward the entire argument, it can only attend to one or two points. And I continually found my points of research and pattern matching to steelman Zurew even more 🤣 The cult fit is a very, very difficult one to shake. My only attempt there could possibly be a reframe entirely; that not all cults are bad. Present examples (which I have one or two that fit the cult model, but aren't negative or bad to me). I might be able to tackle some angles, but at the moment, my work is my priority. I have 2 medical centres at handover in big trouble with the RBS and I have roadblocks to getting occupancy granted. This is literally sucking the life out of me coming up with insane solutions to get compliance on the most fucked up design I have ever seen. Zurew seems like a very patient chap, so it might out if I get some free time soon. A charitable engagement because I would be debating a side I don't necessarily agree with in totality. But a good challenge nonetheless - I used to debate topics I didn't agree with all through high school (fucken decades ago, skills have eroded). And I would want to do the topic justice. But I am facing a juggernaut with Zurew Pretty sure I will just end up reinforcing the opposite side as well!

Love all the arbitrary numbers here. Really impressive logical derivation and critically reasoned out. Doesn't appear absorbed from, or have any overlap, with popular content creators.. at all 😃

Even I want this. But I cannot, as a mod 😢 Half the time I don't read replies when I know I'm going to read a torrent of incoherence

I'm considering closing this. Is it going to go anywhere else, at this point? Any other mods can pitch in with their take.