Natasha Tori Maru

I'm on it boss. Master origami pretzel mode myself into perfection. Conditioning? Dissolved

For someone who submitted such a poor research thesis for his PhD, I cannot say I am surprised AI was used in such a lazy way with very little review (broken down in the video). I think the overall points Mike makes encourage much greater attachment to the physical body, and there isn't enough emphasis on "this body matters, so I will look after it". The issue isn't caring about the body - but making the body into the foundation of identity / value / psychological security. Similar crossover to some of the more problematic extreme views within the looksmaxxing movement (hardmaxxing). I don't think it is good to encourage our wellbeing, identity, worth or security to depend on our bodies being a certain way.

🤣🤣🤣 Get ready

This thread is the definition of unhinged ⊙⁠.⁠☉

I don't want to straight pathologise him; but he really displays a lot of the markers for body dismorphia

I see that there are women who do play by the paradigm he operates from. I simply don't fit that. It's a flaw to flatten an entire sex down into generalisations with no nuance.

I get that, but AION isn't trying to understand anything about me. He is trying to force me to fit into his model of how women work, and when I claim that's not me, that's not how I work, he is incapable of accepting that claim. This is why I think it's weird. And mansplany. And once again applying a sweeping generalisation to all women and how they work. No nuance. Just "all woman work that way"

I don't know what this is about. It seems confused. You don't know any of my wants or needs from men??? I never said or made this explicit. I never claimed life wasnt fair or complained about it. You can have your needs. And it's perfectly fine to want to be part of status hierarchies. I am saying I don't go for those guys. It's your choice not to believe it. You express so much indignation because I don't fit your model. I just don't fit your model.

Not quite, I probably didn't formulate my point clearly enough. I’m not arguing that a persons understanding of their own inner experience should automatically be prioritised over another persons interpretation (or that self-report is infallible). My point is much narrower: when we have an inference about someone’s internal state, and that person tells us our inference doesn't match their actual experience, that should be treated as evidence worth considering. It should prompt some healthy doubt about whether our model is accurate (hence why I also raised about gathering information and testing against current models + updating if needed). They may be wrong about themselves, and we may be wrong about them. Neither position should be treated as automatically infallible. But in this specific case, given forum history and context (always asserting how "things are for women" or how "I am", lack of openness in this domain, lack of enquiry or probing questions, demonstrated inability to update models or drop frame, and general uncharitable engagement) my position is well founded.

Can you quote me, or give me some more of your interpretation here? It could simply be that context was lost in the back and forth, because this originally was about a specific interaction with history. I could possibly have branched off in a way that isn't specific to the initial interaction.

So my claim there is that it should be something to be considered. Healthy doubt to test our knowing. This is just a normative/epistemic claim and part of critical thinking. You don't think this is necessary?

I agree with this!

Such a naughty one, this one 😈 NGL I feel this is a result of the dairy industry's influence

Feel free to elaborate.

No, not necessarily. I never said you cannot infer and be accurate. If you read my passage again, I explicitly grant that inference is legitimate. Inference is fine; treating it as knowledge is a problem.

You can believe whatever you want via whatever inference or whatever heuristic you have developed. But it is still inferred. Not known. It is a belief. My heuristic for knowing AION has no idea how I respond internally is his continual and systematic misunderstanding of me throughout our entire history of the forum. The arrogance of thinking we understand someone's internal responses better than they do must also be inspected. This rolls back into having charitable and good faith discussions. There's another distinction underneath this: holding a model of someone vs remaining receptive to evidence that your model is wrong. Models of others are provisional until we have further evidence. AION has a model of how he thinks I would respond. That's fine. But I supplied direct evidence about my actual response, and instead of treating that as information capable of updating his model, he dismissed it. So in this instance it is reasonable to know I (and my internal responses) am being misunderstood.

Perhaps that is the intention (to display his knowledge around general female tendencies) - but the rhetoric used changes the entire statement. And the rhetoric used is to make an assessment about how I work without consideration of outliers and the great variation in people's psychology. AION moved from describing a population-level tendency to making a personal psychological claim about me, while simultaneously dismissing my own report about myself. If you inspect the phrasing: "I know your internal response better than you know you do." Also note - "doubt that" doubts what I personally asserted about myself and how I work. I am being told how I work. There is no listening to what is being said. Compare that to a statement that would not be so personally targeted: The above would be a more nuanced display of general knowledge & tendencies of female psychology. _____ It is fine to make general statements about how some women work. But it is a trap to think all women work the same way. Just as it would be as unfair to say all men are simple slaves to their sex drives and will abandon their wives at the first sniff off younger puss.

@Valach haha Omg! Again trying to tell me how I feel or how I work! How can you not see this? Literally mansplaning. Surely you are aware enough to see how weird you are being?

I wonder if Mike had this in mind when he wrote the book The Penis Has Entered Its Filler Era I love me some snark 😈

Hell yeah - I've been into weights, running, cycling etc for 22 years. As long as you approach with intensity, vary and challenge the body and do cardio and weights you'll be firing on all cylinders. That's 22 years of habit. It's so reflexive I don't think I just do it before I even realise I started. Like getting in the car to go to work or grabbing tp on the toilet, you unconsciously just do it. I'll say though it's sensible to have a balanced wholefood plant based diet with plenty of healthy fats. You can get by on basics, but if you balance and research your needs you can feel a great difference when you get it right. Especially fats. Mind calories and hit protein goals. And chew your food motherfuckers! A lot ! Your boating will go away 😄

This is so weird. You have such a strange take on me based on your seperate beliefs and narratives. I just don't care about all these things. I know some of your values are status and acceptance (external approval). I can only guess you are projecting these onto others (and myself). I suspect I operate so far our of your paradigm you struggle to make sense of me. Owen is so far away from anything I would want, desire or be satisfied with. You are also constantly telling me how I feel and think in your posts. It's weird man.

@aurum Cheers for the posts, I found them useful to separate out origin, truth and action rather than muddling them all together - If broken down I see that evolutionary history may provide part of the explanation (especially regarding paternity insecurity as a evolutionary hypothesis / explanation). Applied here that leaves two crucial questions "is the reaction accurate in this particular case?" and "should I act according to the reaction?" The last question there being crucial as it is a value judgement. Also: "I feel aversion" = "something is objectively wrong with her" is a non sequitur.

I hope we can assist those astray - I don't think blocking conversation would help with education (if locking the thread was the implication, it was sort of vague ). In the end when the belief has become part of identity it becomes a stubborn part of the complex. Sort of why my signature is what it is, and hasn't changed. C'est la vie

Yes - I was expanding on a point, not necessarily arguing its counter. Sometimes people post to add in an insight that may have been provoked or a differing view. I just don't think the only reason to learn something is because we are unhappy with some other aspect. It is an assumption this has to come from some place negative. What of wonder and curiosity as motivators? Enjoyment of the process of learning? Exploration? or integration - I might want to learn something not because I feel I have inadequate knowledge but to connect separate pieces and cross pollenate my mind... I think looking at this process of success in some domain (here, as learning) as born of negativity is a perspective and not found in direct experience because "unhappiness" is self generated as an internal friction. As an emotion within conscious beings. We could look at unhappiness further as "aversion" - but this is a different claim. Is a tree unhappy and expands up, grows leaves and photosynthesises because it is unhappy? I would say that is success (the tree gets to eat and feed itself via absorbing sunlight and transmuting it) but unhappiness is not required. Leo isn't always correct. I really critically assess his claims myself (as he wants us to do). Was "only" in his claim? I do not recall.

I'm aghast and utterly confused regarding this discussion. I don't think anyone is really comprehending what @Xonas Pitfall & @Valach are raising. I almost verge on recommending some sort of professional therapy or help for some of the members here regarding unconscious limiting views. I know this is for deaf ears. I can hope for healing though. Dehumanisation.