Natasha Tori Maru

@Joshe remarkable how similar the growth process you describe is, to my own. Jesus. I think I am heavy Te - but it's all expressed in construction and my work. I tend to flirt with it less so in cognitive realms like philosophy, metaphysics or forum dialogue. It may not be manifesting here because it is spent in real life? But also, I am a woman, and socialised to prioritise feelings and group cohesion. So I have had certain other functions beaten in to me, so to speak. I don't mind being wrong really. But for me, the stupid Ni can shift frames to mean so many things can be looked at as right/wrong! Not all. The forum is low stakes, so being wrong here is okay. Being wrong on my takeoff for a hebel cladding estimate could fold my business though.... So it's fair to say that risk assessment may be happening subconsciously. Lucky I am decisive as fuck. Which is also why I am okay being wrong too - I make decisions based on what limited information I have. If it's wrong I am all good taking responsibility. If you are anything like me with emotions though, sometimes I just get charged up and dig my heels in. Which is out of alignment to my normal rational self. Which is all humans really 😁 and also why I try to not explain someone's psychology or pathologise them with my elaborate internal mechanistic explanations. Maybe they were just having a bad day! Maybe I should try break my Ni with Si for a bit, instead of going meta meta into recursive nightmares (which is incidentally why I think you and I zoom all over the shop with conversation, it's in an infinite recursion happening in real time). Enjoyed the chats I think I understand you better, rather than just explain behaviour ⚡

This passage is interesting to me. If expressing yourself in this way is "authentic" expression, but it causes offense and runs up against a value (in this case harmony, unintended alienation) was it really authentic expression? If our authenticity is violating a value, it seems to me something may NOT be authentic and expressed as truth. Maybe it points to something unintegrated that is yet to be revealed (IE on our unconscious awareness). And once we find that truth within us, connect to it, our authentic expression won't contradict one of our values. Authenticy is a complex topic - and it relates to values. When we feel like expression is totally in the moment we often label it as authentic - but is it really if it runs up against a core value?

@oOo interested in what in particular reads as "try hard" from Emerald? I feel like that could just as easily be applied to me, really 😅😅😅

What's missing is instead of analysing the dynamics, one should be focusing on relating to the other person. Relational understanding is more conducive to "frame control" or "leadership". When someone feels truly seen, understood and known - they become remarkably receptive and open to alternative frames, perspectives and opinions. You can truly influence someone this way. Women are particularly sensitive to being analysed and seen through a "frame" which often endeavours to explain her instead of understand. It severs the experience from the person. Map vs territory issue. At work, I don't try to control subcontractors through any sort of frame or understanding. I relate to their experience, their troubles & I negotiate a solution that ties into their meaning. As soon as they feel seen, they feel validated. They will follow my lead. Psychoanalysis or logically trying to understand them never rallies or incentivizes them to work 5 hour of O/T like connection though relational understanding does.

100% If I understand you correctly - You possibly learned through direct, relentless feedback from reality/real world experience. Trial and error, and probably a good mix of variation within that experience (and contradictory feedback), meaning you incurred less bias. But also, to learn what you did most likely also meant you DIDN'T prematurely close in on a frame and become locked. I don't know how you experience Ni, but for me it is really tacit. I have no fucken idea how I come to the conclusions or knowings I have - and I continually have to reverse engineer from the conclusion explicitly to understand (and I've been burned by my tacit conclusions often enough now I make a really concerted effort to never simply roll with my 'Knowings"). So often I am taken aback by conversations based on game, PUA, frame etc I used to not understand why someone would need this sort of frame to guide them, because I so naturally built one up in what appears to be an unconscious way. It becomes a map vs territory issue. Learning the frame then applying (and learning its limitations in the process) vs learning and building a frame from direct experience. Both definitely require challenges, fear, anxiety and courage. Both have different types of pitfalls. Explicit frames being learned and applied, to me, seem so alien... but I see the use. And I have come to use these methods as an alternative to my straight Ni. I am almost trying to break my Ni at this time in my life, if that makes sense. to "get out' of it, because it is so much of my processing I cannot make it out clearly. I cannot see my eyes.

EXACTLY Take THAT @LordFall Precision vs accuracy maybe? We must unify to become the ultimate powerhouses

That's it! Yes and that was the user @theleelajoker While I can never be certain regarding MBTI - it is always INTJ's that I clash with on some fundamental, unnamed level. It feels like I agree but don't agree, I see but don't see. My Dad is an INTJ also and works with me *shudder* When I clash with him it is literally the immovable object meeting the unstoppable force. We only reconcile after stepping away, both of us going meta regarding the arguement and our own thinking, then re-approaching with either a new perspective or one of us becoming willing to toss theirs. Both of us are relentlessly persistent which can be great when applied to a permanent relationship (provided we can resolve conflict). I have become a lot better with resolution... But not necessarily lowering conflict 😅 Needless to say I think it the Ni Ni clash can be a great avenue for growth

I think I am more pondering and thinking and less proposing an argument - or refuting you Many of my responses are "hey, you triggered this pattern match or thought!" then I post. The sisters part - I vaguely VAGUELY recall maybe you said that - but I cannot remember if it was you or another member (who was banned, forgot his name, but he had really good interesting views, I think his avatar was a jester). So I was hoping you would correct me by affirming/denying. And the assumption there was that if you did confirm you had a sister - this would explain why these social dynamics / mechanisms with women (and outside of the romance domain) are just totally obvious to you I tend to be cautious of premature closure - which is sort of the opposite axis that you take, maybe? Steer toward closure + find the pattern across domains. I do that to for sure, but I like to pull back so I don't get stuck in frame lock (which I tended to fall into 4/5 years ago a lot). This isn't so good because my pondering and questioning can, if not put forth with clean, neutral rhetoric, can come across as me trying to rip apart someone's epistemology (and this can be deeply distressing to some people, so I am practicing being extra cautious). I think I often probe really deep trying to come up with heuristics I can apply - and even steal others heuristics they have developed. I think many times you have replied to something I didn't say - but could be inferred. I have done the same with you as well! I find the continued dialogue an unusual exercise in Ni vs Ni that is almost amplifying weaknesses in different ways. Maybe functioning like a mirror. A god awefull house of mirrors warped one LOL I am often not even trying to win. I don't need closure. But this can be infuriating to some Another factor is: my statements can sometimes be vague and when questioned or engaged they become clearer in meaning as I go (this isn't intentional, something I am trying to work on as well). Often troubles can be simply reduced down to the need for the question "what do you mean by that?"

I did not mean to imply you weren't aware. I didn't assume you weren't. Just making conversation. I think I was illustrating that this is the ideal way - but treating the frame as provisional.... I feel it needs to be reinforced more. I can find many examples of people who don't treat it that way!!! Why lol?

That can be an issue - a woman not being able to move easily between masculine / feminine polarity. I wouldn't get home to my partner and start talking about SOP's around housework and timetabling it all (and if I did, it would simply be a coed task to fix some other issue that I wouldn't need to control, simply negotiate). I get home and start dancing and expressing I tend to let go of control. I dislike it. I prefer antifragile - be like the fire to the wind. Wind blows, I don't get knocked down or pushed around. I be the fire, I use the wind! Maybe this is closer to chaos as a feminine concept that the pure crazy Peterson tends to frame it as.

@Joshe I think you have been really well socialised and have sisters yeah? That helps A LOT. It is weird because I see these frames and structures applied to dating and think they are rubbish. But maybe they are provisional for people who have not had strong platonic relationships with women? Throw it all away at the end... I also get a weird paradoxical sense: by saying "I need to do this, be this" am I not telling myself subconsciously "I am NOT that"?

I don't feel like I need to be in a masculine frame at all. Ever. Maybe this is because it is natural for me. When it isn't natural for a women to express herself in a masculine way, it feels like an energy drain on the system. Most women, to ensure their safety, have to work. Corporate environments can mean operating from a masculine frame. But women need to do this, because they need financial independence. Often a women operating in an environment like that when it isn't natural to them can potentially overcompensate. They do not know how to be gentle, kind and firm. They overstep and think force is needed. Or dominance. This might be what many men see and dislike - often pinned as feminism. I work in commercial construction - so it definitely isn't a lack of masculine men around me I actually fly in the face of most women in leadership (and especially construction) - I lead from what I would consider a feminine frame. I never use force. I align teams through relationships and constantly reinforce we are all on the same side looking for the same outcome. I lead emotionally and through relational understanding. I never really need to order anyone around. I incentivise people and apply leverage. I am competent and know my shit - once I am able to transmit this to others, they are generally onside. I have the most trouble with other women in lead roles trying to use force against me, or misunderstanding which results in biased treatment. Dunno if that is feminine or masculine now I think about it!

Yes I am really an odd ball - I'm like, way off the end of the bell curve I think I have a mature perspective, but at the same time, I often get poked fun at for having masculine interests and generally being a but more analytical. I definitely don't become so swept up in emotions like most women - but I am extremely emotionally expressive. I let them out really quickly and intensely and they are done. I don't hold onto stuff. I think if you want a woman to be able to be safe and secure in her feminine qualities, providing that environment is essential - which dovetails into some of your points.

I am flexible with a balance between feminine and masculine traits. I don't feel a pressing need to be in one or the other. Whatever is happening in my experience just manifests whatever polarity is suitable and I let it flow naturally. I don't agree with the definition of femininity being chaos. I think that is a limiting frame peddled by Jordan Peterson due to his own misunderstanding. I don't want or need a man to lead. I am fine with whatever arises naturally as a dynamic. And if I am not fine with it I problem solve accordingly. Additionally I think I was clear illustrating the differences between dynamics within relationship vs dating or attraction phase.

Poorly thought out thread title. "Hate" - I disagree. Neglect, ignore, discard. Yes. You deal with a whole host of other issues through life being attractive. It carries a lot of privilege. When the attractive person loses their looks, it is the first death. Second death when the heart stops. Many men & women who have recognised this loss and feel the invisibility creep in as their looks fade suffer, and bitterness can result. It can be a real headfuck and cause sadness, envy and jealousy - especially when those people have invested a lot of their attachmen, sense of self in their appearance and approval from the attention of others. In a similar way, having children can also bring this reality forward for woman in time to be faced earlier in life. The tradeoff is the axis between: Experiencing a high degree of appearance based reinforcement which can lead to a larger identity disturbance when looks fade and Experiencing lower appearance based reinforcement with less disruption from aging - but then potentially more deprivation & insecurity earlier in life A big trap for good looking people is overvaluing it, never investing in other integral traits, behaviours and qualities, and having zero substance as a result.

If you are having these ego/power battles you aren't working as an aligned team (if within a relationship). In a relationship there will be equal leadership at different times in service of the relationships growth, goals and alignment (this includes growth of both individuals). Sometimes one partner will need to take up slack and lead (if the other falls sick for instance, life challenges etc). Man or woman (or anything in between). Mature flexibility. Leadership and negotiation should be the focus. Who is leading will always be dynamic. In dating the dynamics can change. But realise if you play these push/pull power games many mature partners will reject you as it is often a proxy for your ability to maturely problem solve and navigate conflict. How well can you work as a team to solve a problem? Can be as simple as "where to eat for dinner" or "I want kisses now". All of these are needs that arise from each partner will require solutions and action steps. Power plays can act as a shit test. They can also reveal immature conflict strategies. The whole idea is that you find someone you align with and they are on your team. A cooperative system.

Mosquito's are the deadliest animal for humans on earth. Kill imo 😈

I know this feel (toxic motivation from my inner abusive narrative!) I had to cut ties with ME - or should I say, accept this inner dialogue with LOVE and hug it to death >.< You have come so far

Thanks I have a long way to go. The process is slow. Things that often feel resolved come up again continually! I expect it now. I relish being triggered or activated - there is something unknown within me to discover when this happens. If I can be put in a state of "wonder" I am very, very excited. Wonder is so curious to me, and important. Wonder is a combination of awe and curiosity in my eyes. Awe being touching on, or perceiving, something greater than me. If I can trigger wonder I have really entered a positive and engaged state of "not-knowing", which is so delightful. Linking this back to being triggered - when I feel activated in a way I wasn't prepared for, I know I can quickly access that wonder state. And there I can really probe with genuine inquiry and not be so limited by a pre-existing frame or explanation. It feels like reverting to a child-like provisional state.

@Jordan of the Shire I really enjoyed your addition here - your focus adds the somatic/embodied approach that was missing. I think after reviewing all the advice here there appear to be multiple legitimate entry points into psychological change. Cognitive understanding, emotional processing, somatic regulation, and attention de-identification can each affect a conditioned pattern (whether inherent to our unique biological self and predisposition, or a conditioned response from experience/story). The biggest distinction is between really contacting and allowing an experience to be processed/integrated, versus using one modality to avoid another (which is very often what happens when we aren't quite using the right method for us!)

Based on this and your other responses (caveat being, this is just speculation from my end as I cannot know your true inner experience, meaning and thoughts/feelings) - the biggest block that jumps out is you could be trying to understand your way out of having to feel. The answer I provided was pretty overwhelmingly phenomenological / emotional (identify feeling, notice resistance, isolate narratives that suppress emotion). You didn't go there in your response - you pivoted to "what is the psychological mechanism? what frame explains my execution problem?". Explaining could actually BE the block. AI use might be part of the block too (more explaining). NB I used to semi-suffer from this block also - explaining/rationalising everything. Control jumps out at me too. Less of "I dislike monotonous tasks" and more the entailed resentment of "I have to be subordinate to reality itself". You also very astutely realise you need to integrate blue - but there is a subtle cognitive dissonance (or contradiction) as much of your reasoning is decidedly anti-blue (intp, most things bore me, motivation with monotonous tasks, arguing on a forum over DMing clients etc). Honestly - I think your intelligence has become extremely effective at negotiating around an emotional constraint What do I experience internally in the 30 seconds immediately before I avoid the task? List the emotion, body sensation, thoughts, what the task says about you, what happens if you execute it poorly? - what about if you ace it? What resentment appears - what does sitting with this boring process mean about who I am? What am I protecting myself from experiencing here? This is almost like SITTING with the boredom and monotony, but actually going into it and analysing it. Which is part of the blue integration. I sound so funny to myself with all of this emotional, feeling and semantic shit. I used to resist this stuff. But it has unlocked insane authentic growth where I just engage in process with very little resistance. I would have laughed at you if you told me to do these things 2 years ago.

My ex had schizophrenia. Regularly experienced command hallucinations. They actually started when I was with him. I remember when they had just begun - he would grab my arm and say "can you hear that sound like a kids voice?" as the water from the sink drained. They started as sounds within sounds. He would constantly be looking for the voices inside other sounds - then one day the voices appeared to him separate from the other sounds. They jumped out. He always stopped, listened to them, then told me what they said. For a good chuck he knew they weren't real - especially as he often asked me about them. I was definitely his anchor to reality for a bit. One day he spontaneously started to listen and follow them. I got home to all the windows sealed shut, sheets and nails covering any window or door with a vision panel... Shadow people outside apparently. We got him help and medication soon after. Just thought I would share what I saw of auditory hallucinations. Genuinely seemed he was aware they were disembodied voices - but there was a change where he didn't trust them as telling then truth - then he did trust them. He felt they were like guardians (he knew they weren't coming from a real source ever since they "separated" from other sounds). But he also said confusing things like he thought they were real.

Those reddit pics (regarding the double chin) are literally just from tongue placement in the mouth. All it really does is raise the internal muscle placement at rest in the mouth. It isn't reshaping your jaw in any permanent way. It doesn't alter muscles more than just where they sit at rest. If you place your hand under your chin (where your chin meets your neck) and begin with your tongue placed at the bottom of the mouth, then raise it, you can literally feel the lift from different tongue placement. Just ensure your tongue is resting on the roof of your mouth when relaxed - voilà! No more double chin! Otherwise known as "mewing"

Alright then, take a break for a bit. See you next week.

@Elliott You've been warned about your crude rhetoric due to interactions in this thread. Stop.