Natasha Tori Maru

Hmm. To be clear, I tactfully avoid those sorts of discussions and hierarchies. I see it as more attachment - the opposite of surrender. A deception. It's just making spirituality another ground, after erasing all other grounds. When everything needs to be thrown away, including all seeking, all spirituality, in the end. Spiritual ego.

We are automatically going to filter all descriptions of experience through language. The insidious cataract between our awareness and reality 💀 Everything is therefor always going to be inherently muffled, incoherent and obscured. No wonder teaching is so hard, so many misunderstandings arise, and so many fights are had!

I apologise if my words offended you. I did not mean it so. I was attempting to describe spiritual endeavours without using the word seeker, and to do credit to what you yourself described. It is a simple misunderstanding, no offence meant. I am open to not knowing. Because I do not know anything for certain. I make no grand claims, nothing about what I have experienced is remarkable at all. No-thing can cause awakening. Do you have issue then, with engaging in things that make one 'accident prone' to reaching awakening? The process you highlight, this : This isn't surrender, though. This is gaining something. You suffer. Then boom. Suffer, surrender. Surrender is giving up practice. Giving up reading, giving up liking, giving up orientation. The thing is, you don't even need to do those things, then give them up. None of it is necessary. So there doesn't even need to be seeking or training or orientation. In my own experience, I never learned of this surrender to try it. Suffering was so great, surrender just happened. As if it were so natural, as if to breathe. Surrender nullifies. I think I felt some charge behind this line of enquiry, as it is along similar lines to several other conversations. IE I believe taking action causes the brain to rewire to bias to action, and rewiring the brain does not come before action. Similar line of enquiry here. Indeed, I am not sure if it is clear - beliefs being smuggled into the process can happen. Confirmation bias - surrender exhumes this. Not sure if it was clear that was agreed upon. I claim this is not spirituality. Seeking isn't the path. Regardless, I do not want to upset you. So I will respectfully tap out 🙏

I would look at my statement above as I think of it; I am not good enough at finding the words and descriptions to bring clarity to this.

Okay. This is just is not correct. There is no seeking. There is nothing to reach. There is no level. Whatever you are describing has nothing to do with spirituality. Nothing. I think there might be a confusion because you have stated truth is not for you. You don't actually know what you are talking about - and I mean no offence - you admitted this in a few threads. It appears to be an attampt to understand from the intellect. Surrender that. You can't train something to surrender - it is a total misnomer. You're even giving up 'train'. I can't go any further with this. It is a concept you are trying to squish onto spirituality.

I haven't watched all of it, but it was an interesting conceptualization of language! Looking at it as something foreign, parasitic and fundamentally altering our entire perception. Language is fascinating.

What do you take God-realized to mean?

https://youtu.be/Ca_RbPXraDE?si=sW07Xkh2EvK859Zb

Yes, because it is surrender. That's the whole point. Give it all up. Do you think you can summarise the point of this thread in one sentence? Because the whole thing is so disjointed, it just seems like you are saying 'humans are biased/delusional'. I don't get it. This is a given. This is intellect trying. This is one of Leo's core messages also.

There is no training of consciousness. This is an additive process. The process isn't additive.

Not uncomfortable, a total misunderstanding. This does not even incorporate surrender. It also misses no one becomes awakened, enlightened. It is not about looking for truth. It is about removing. Subtraction. There is no frame. Again, it is not about seeking. Not about meaning.

Yes. I illuminate a pattern of using this tool too much in thinking, and conclusions. I make no statement on benefits/ drawbacks. I point to imbalance.

@Cred Your insights are welcome. Insisting on your one frame, while neglecting the myriad - nigh, hundreds - of other explanations, is not. You approach this topic with open-mindedness. However, it is prudent to remain vigilant that frames are limited; and that you insisting on yours is closed minded. I perceive you projecting. Your good intentions are noted 🙏

I really appreciate that 🙏 It is difficult to communicate some things - impossible actually. Which is why we are left pointing, implying or simply confused. I try to understand where users are attempting to bridge the gap in there experience with another. It is a fine line to convey discernment and wisdom without it being received as judgement & ego. Many times I have much more knowledge, or things I can communicate that may help (many times less, also!). But more often than not, I recognise the process is more important for the user to move through than anything I have to say.

@Jowblob aren't you able to sense your words are not received so well?