Natasha Tori Maru

@Olaf shit... I don't think you can escape logic! Maybe that's not the mechanism that blocks understanding. Understanding a woman isn't having an explanation but it IS being able to accurately reproduce the woman's personal meaning. You can be highly logical and deeply relational. Just can't jump into reasoning before you know what you are reasoning about. I use this sequence as a relational foundation with anyone, not just women. But it works for me: Connect (and I mean be with her, rather than trying to figure her out) -> observe -> clarify (questions) -> understand (get meaning from her perspective) -> reason (now assess with logic and rationality, critical thinking) -> respond Ideally, you end up in a positive open and mutual relational loop where she reveals something, then you reveal something, then she responds, then you respond. The error I see people fall into is they observe, theorise, classify then explain the women. What I don't ever do is use my explanation of a person (woman) as a substitute for a relationship with them. You want connection through intellect, feeling & empathy. Especially applies to women. But this also appeals to the feminine - so men will respond also (as men and women both have varied amounts of both qualities). The model you use can cockblock you if you aren't open, honest and prioritise new input with sound critical assessment. Logic isn't the enemy but locked down, closed models are.

Do you find new ways the book applies to you as you return to it at different life stages? It did for me, certainly. New messages jump out I missed before. I am not sure why people dismiss it as too elementary (maybe because it is simple). I think it's fundamental. ------- I really have a lot of respect for how open, transparent and vulnerable you are with your process. You can really see how powerful your inner voice is becoming through the work. That ends up translating to positive behaviour when authentically expressed. It's been my experience, anyway ☺️

I am not sure if you are consciously aware of what you are doing @Miguel1 . Your rhetoric has a recurring tendency to sidestep the user's actual point by moving the conversation onto a conceptual frame where you have already established the terms. You are dismissing through reframing. Not engaging with what is said. You did this to Xonas in your exchange, and with myself. It's this strange move toward epistemic positioning: you take the role of the person who identifies the deeper principle, correct the users framing, distinguishes the percived “real” issue from the superficial one, and explain the other's misunderstanding. This is subtly patronising and is not beneficial for the type of relational discussion you want. You position everyone as a subject to be corrected. I know this isn't your intention. But it is what is happening.

Bit of a grey area : Doxxing or DDoS The whole intent behind doxxing is to instigate groups to harass. And DDoS while it can be automated, is a similar groupthink frenzy when done via users.

Of course it's just the first few moments - but if it never gets beyond smalltalk, or smalltalk is that person's substance, then you know it's not the person for you. You are putting me down, you just can't see it. You are condescending. I don't care if you don't claim it. It still happened. Never said feelings are the whole truth.

Thanks for being patient with me

But all those questions are proxies - they show tone, intonation. Bring out body language. Expression. Spark further conversation into deeper subjects. Neutral small talk is a safe template to begin rapport. Eye contact. What topics they like. You can't avoid small talk. It only leads no where when you fail to see someone's eye twinkle on a topic and question more. Show real interest. Don't try to use your rhetoric to put me down like I don't know what depth, maturity and self awareness are. Stop that now. Feelings are part of your truth. You really want to avoid this topic.

Sarcastic condescending rhetoric. I just asked a question for further nuance as it isn't 100% clear to me based on how frequently you switch domains

Well you profess to do all this inner work but you won't even launch enquiry into these two questions. You keep avoiding both of them while they stare you in the face. Instead you judge the questions which as I raised above blocks a feeling. There is something you are avoiding feeling. I dunno what it is but I can't help you if you won't ask yourself the questions. If I were in your position it would be pen and paper. 2-3 hours of relentless "how what why if when" enquiry.

You reject that knowing someone takes time. How do you know when you know someone? What markers do you look for? Not feelings. Feelings aren't going to tell you anything other than your limbic brain is being triggered by endorphins. If you can list how you know - like with your example about the girl you spoke to for 5 hours. How do you know you got to depth there? Authentic depth? Knowing beyond just intuition or any feelings?

But did PUA tell you what to look for to select for a genuine authentic connection and relationship? Did it teach you how to select for that and how to narrow your search? I think the numbers thing is a red herring here.

This has nothing to do with what I raised. You are sidestepping. Do you think it is more likely you have an issue with the martyr / holier than thou inner narrative, or the myriad others who have pointed out this narrative you leak out? I can build a case if you want. It keeps coming out of you in many posts. I can go through your previous threads and quote the other users who see this in you, and there's been a few. I can go and quote every time you have reported "only I care". I don't want to trigger you into an egoic state so you don't listen, but there isn't any other way to say it. It's worth really driving into this and not just rejecting it. This narrative is actually blocking you from the deep enquiry you need to do. Notice it is a judgement. If it's a judgement - it's blocking authenticity. It's blocking a feeling you are avoiding. You can't be in judgement and feeling authentic at the same time. By knowing what you aim for. And trusting yourself you know. But you don't seem to trust yourself. You don't seem to have a process. A heuristic. Especially if you ask this question. Again I return to - do you trust yourself?

That's not the right question - the right question is HOW do you know?

Dating more than one person isnt keeping it superficial. Please I implore you! This frame is shooting you in the foot! How do you know if you want to invest in something? You start small. Small talk. Throw out some low risk pennies. Keep talking - oh hey! That person gave me a penny back... Maybe it's with investing a dollar... Let's see where that goes. Wow they gave me two bucks in return! Over time youl earn this person is really worth investing more into. Then you jump in and go exclusive. Stock market full force pink sheets investment 😁 I don't think we understand dating is the method to establish if it's worth investing. You don't just invest a million when you have no fucking idea what the hell you are investing into!

I mean... this is the main barrier to connection. It might not be that people aren't willingly showing themselves - many simply don't know WHO they are. They don't even know they aren't showing who they are - they might think they are authentic - but that person is buried deep underneath layers of shame. They feel they are being authentic, but they cannot connect with themselves, and they don't realise this - so all genuine attempts to connect authentically with another are hopeless. If you have any sort of attachment issue or codependency, you learned early on that showing who you really are in a bid for connection resulted in rejection, punishment or being ignored/discarded. So you internalize a belief "I must hide / perform as someone else to get love" or "love must be earned" or "my needs aren't important". All of these mean we end up burying who we are in an attempt to get love. It is fundamentally disconnection from the self. Other times people are so craving connection they cannot get with a person (or themselves), they end up connecting with a substance (food, drugs, alcohol) unconsciously. We can also do this with emotional highs - being addicted to our own adrenaline fueled feeling states. Triggering them in patterns. All bids to connect to something. These sorts of issues are very, very common. I think you make a martyr of yourself with this sort of narrative. And it is part of the reason others are feeling as if you are coming off as "holier than thou". “I am the one doing the difficult, honest work while everyone else isn't.” Once that narrative takes hold, it can become self-reinforcing. It puts you in a morally elevated position. It also makes genuine inquiry harder because disagreement starts to feel like evidence that others aren't willing to go where you are. And while you may profess you don't feel that way - the inner narrative that comes out signals otherwise. Even when we do not consciously think something, that does not mean we do not think thoughts that incur a belief. Do you think you have any issues with self trust, connection or attachment? Codependency? Bainstorm what connection is. What it entails. How long it takes to feel and see clearly. Markers for when it is authentic. Under what circumstances it arrives. Values and compatibility are also factors. Theres a lot to this. It's not so reductive as you attempt to advertise it "I seem to be the only one to push it." - do you know what it is you push? Real love. And that is never simple when in relative human domains. I don't think you will find a solution through more information....