Karmadhi

Hello I wanted to discuss something I have been thinking about and that is the higher standard people expect Russia to have compared to the USA What do I mean by that? It is two fold First standard: Basically when Russia illegally invades a soverign country, it is somehow worse than when USA does it The invasion of Iraq by the USA was not only illegal, it also was built on totally false pretexes Yet, nothing really happened to the USA. They continued as usual. Meanwhile Russia was banend from SWIFT, sanctioned like hell, banned from Fifa, from Olympics etc It seems like an illegal invasion of a soverign country is worse when Russia does it Second standard: It is pretty clear if you are outside the Western/NATO bubble that NATO is viewed by Russia as a threat Russia sees how NATO bombed Libya totally illegally, not to mention Iraq as well Therefore to them NATO is not a defensive alliance all the time How come it is expected for Russia to allow their biggest neighboor and cultural ally, Ukraine to join this alliance? Let us revese the roles What if there was an anti American alliance which had engaged in acts of illegal aggression before and Mexico was considering joining it Or Canada Would USA not do anything? Last time this happened it was with Cuba in 1961, a much smaller country that does not share a land border with USA USA literally invaded Cuba, just like Russia did to Ukraine. The invasion failed and eventually was cut off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion Therefore, USA has a track record of invading neighboors which become allies of their enemies Why is it different when Russia does the same? Note, I do support Ukraine and I do not support Russia. They were clearly in the wrong here The point of the thread is not that Russia isnt bad, but it is that USA is just as bad, yet it is not considered as such It has not faced any real consequence like Russia did and that shows that international law does not exist and that might is right What do you guys think?

Hello everyone In the light of the captives being released from both sides, I wanted to discuss a bit about something I have noticed and also a lot of people are talking about That is the state of the captives that Hamas is releasing compared to the state of Palestinian captives that Israel is releasing It seems to me from the footage I have seen that the live captives that Hamas is releasing, including those of previous exchanges are in much better shape overall (no signs of physical abuse which remains in the body after torture) Now you can argue "they are smiling and waving because Hamas told them so". Sure, I am not talking about that. I am talking about the physical state of their bodies which you cannot hide. They seem pretty well fed, good hair and beard and seem pretty ok overall I think there was 1 exception, the guy who was in a picture digging his own grave that was released some months ago. That was a pretty good case of someone who has been starved and abused. But it is 1 case. Meanwhile the Palestinian ones, many of them have lost a ton of weight, have either shaved head or very messy hair/beard and some looked downright scared and traumatized Not to mention many have a lot of bruises and wounds from beatings and torture. A case I read was that one was told "your whole family died in Gaza" even though it was not true as a means to torture him and when he was released and met them he was shocked in disbelief. Others legit look traumized for life and their physical state is horrible (tons of weight lost or a lot of bruises). There were cases where they had to had limbs amputations from being chained for too long. It is quite similar to the awful state of Ukranian POWs that Russia releases in prisoner exchanges that look like they have been starved, abused and beaten. It is 1 way, I have not seen Russian POWs that Ukraine releases be in such a state. They get treated way better (I think). Same logic here. Now, I am not here to justify taking captives in the first place Both Israel and Hamas have taken captives illegally and that is awful to do, regardless of how they are treated I am not here saying Hamas is not bad for taking captives. I am happy they are being released. But I just wanted to pinpoint this thing a lot of people have talked about recently (and in previous releases for that matter) Since Israel is according to people "Western liberal democracy", I think they are not supposed to torture and misstreat people in jails even if they have committed crimes. I am not even talking about people who have been arbitrary imprisoned like doctors in Gaza for eg. But I am sure in USA for example or Europe they do not torture people accussed of terrorism or school shooters in jails What do you guys think? Is there something deeper here that we are not noticing?

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-died-a-thousand-times-freed-palestinian-detainees-describe-horrific-torture/ Why are Israelis so inumane It baffles me everyday It seems like collective insanity

Most Israelis said they were being tortured and starved and everything. They already had that idea in their mind. The state of the hostages just made those claims seem false. Then why people consider it worse when a democracy is attacked? Like people like Piers Morgan say "Ukraine a democratic country". Ok How hard is it not to torture and beat up prisoners? There have been many terrorist attacks in the UK. Did they torture and starve the suspects for these attacks?

@Breakingthewall I think fundamentally because Bosnians have a state and Palestinians do not That is the fundamental difference They feel occupied and have been oppressed for decades In Bosnia they were treated ok under Yugoslavia and then there was a genocide which lasted for a few years. Palestinians have legit been born and raised under brutal occupation and they do not even have a land to go back to I think if they got a proper state, their extremism would go away with time.

I mean technically they can abuse them and beat them and they would still be equally valuable as long as they are alive and functioning. So I do not get the argument here But that is not how a democracy is supposed to act. A democracy like the UK where you live do not torture people like that even if they are suspected of terrorism. This is not democratic behavior. Not to mention it is endless cases, not a few incidents but systemic policy. To be fair I have not seen Russia treat them any better with time. They always look awful state to me the Ukranian POWs. It is very inhumane what Russia does to them. Makes sense. I agree but western style democracies are supposed to act differently not law of jungle. Otherwise, why do we see them as more "humane" forms of governance.

What do you think about this? Israeli leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/17/israeli-general-aharon-haliva-palestinians-7-october-gaza German leadership: "The number of hostages to be shot was calculated as a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe". Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kragujevac_massacre

That is quite commendable to say it, most would be in denial I honestly do not think top American military leaders said anything remote to this after 9/11. It is one thing to say "we must do what we must do" but to give quotas is downright disgusting. Not to mention 1 to 50 is crazy high. It seems like a thirst for revenge which is very hard to quencht Thank you, now that this whole madness is hopefully over these threads will calm down I really enjoyed looking briefly into your analysis of Israeli political parties in your other post Will read it in detail later And congratulations on the hostages being released I am happy about that

Thank you so much Nivsch for posting this I am quite interested to reading about the different parties and your spiral interpretation is quite useful since you cannot find such a thing in other places

What do you think about this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/17/israeli-general-aharon-haliva-palestinians-7-october-gaza It shocks how me this is not world headlines

I find the Israeli right wing attitude towards Palestine more similar to that the Nazis had towards Slavs in the USSR than what the Nazis had towards Jews As critical as i am of Israel I feel like their entire attitude is more similar to how Nazis behaved in USSR, not how they behaved in the Holocaust. Jews were downright wiped out, no questions asked. Slavs it was about taking land, a land that the Nazis felt entitled to, keeping some Slavs around and forcing the rest to flee and kill many in the process. A scary comparison I found Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/17/israeli-general-aharon-haliva-palestinians-7-october-gaza Nazi Germany in the Eastern Front: "The number of hostages to be shot was calculated based on a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe"

International law is universal All countries are in UN If UN says you are breaking law, you stop it

Their interest need to be within international law. The more a country disregards international law the worse they are in my eyes. This is me judging countries foreign policies. I was not aware of it. I consider invasion taking considerate parts of land. But if China is taking whole islands I will investigate and correct myself.

Ok clear, I miss understood you I do not think anyone here supports Russia invading Ukraine. At most they blame both the West and Russia about it. But I have not seen anyone here actually support the invasion. It is general sentiment that it was wrong. Even Russian apologiest say that it was wrong.

Those were indeed wrong but were done many decades ago. I usually refer to after 1990s, because beforehand I can also say USA annexing Hawaii for example but I am not going that further back. Until 1990s there was still a law of the jungle in a way so I do not use it as a reference point. If they invade Taiwan I would indeed have huge issues with it but so far it has not happened What is your point? When did I defend China? I started this saying Russia got punished more than other countries for doing a similar thing and now you are telling me that China is getting away with bad things. You are simply proving my point more. I do not like China nor support it. I prefer Europe over China any day of the year.

Where did you get this from? Russia has annexed 20% of Ukraine for over 2 years now and nothing close to that has happened I think the reason people do not seem to see it as a bad thing when Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, is because in their mind Eastern Ukraine is mostly Russians and therefore it is fine if Russia gets it. I am sure they would have major issue if they took parts of Poland for example where there are no Russians. Note: I am just explaining their though process, it is not what I think. I do not support annexations in general.

I specifically talked about invasions on my thread Then when Leo made it about annexation of land, I made it about that too Iran did not invade anyone, neither did China To me invading or bullying other countries is another level of asshole than your bullying your own. But that is just how i see it North Korea is far worse than China on its citizens using that paradigm. If i start shitting on countries that supply weapons to conflicts then i will have to include half the world

You can insult them all you want, it is a sentiment a lot of people share these days, not a fringe position. Even the American president candidate Vivek brought it on Piers Morgan interview

Again, I said it many times and you are not giving me an answer. Why arent Azerbajan or Israel for stealing land banned in anything? Azerbajan took land in 2022 and Israel is taking slowly land in the West Bank since decades now UK supplied Israel, they give data and help to Israel. They have not pushed for any sanctions in Israel and they hosted the Israeli president who has made genocidal statements. If not complicit they are pretty indifferent and not caring to it. It is ONLY because of the massive outrage from British citizens than the government actually bothered to recently recognize Palestine (and it was the left wing government). If you think UK is not biased towards Israel look at this It is pretty clear from this clip UK is not an objective player whose value is truth and human rights and international law regarding the Israel Palestine conflict.

It is a very populat conspiracy theory Personally I do not think it is intentional but simply a side effect of globalization and liberal/progressive policies when it comes to borders

I am aware of all the bad things Russia has done since the war started However until March 2022 I do not think Russia was problematic in that way I do not support the Russian government nor endorse their actions I am not their friend nor apologiest I wish Russia had a more progressive liberal government instead of the current nationalistic one So lets clear this out please to avoid missunderstandings Regarding war crimes. I totally agree Russia has behaved in many cruel war crimes. However, all the things you said about tanks shooting at civilians, worthshipping war criminals etc Israel has done 10x more (way more civilienas and kids dead in Gaza than Ukraine per capita) yet UK hosted Herzgog as a friend. The same Herzog who said "there are no uninvolved in Gaza", a place where 50% are under 18. Not only that, but Uk has done 0 sanctions on Israel Which goes against all their principles and norms as defenders of human rights and international law UK is technically complicit in genocide both Labour and Tories parties. Many human rights groups have said so unfortunately. I am happy the general British public is pretty angry and protesting all the time about this. It shows ordinary Brits have heart. I respect them. But the politicans all seem either bought or deeply biased. When i say "UK" i am talking mostly about the government not the people. I think they are pretty sensible about this entire issue. I am not offending average Brits. UN and basically every reputable Human rights organization called it a genocide. For Ukraine they have said tons of war crimes but no genocide. Genocide is worse than war crimes. Which is why to me Israel is worse than Russia. Since Russia is not a friend, neither should Israel be. If Western countries want to actually be seen as supporters of international law they should not ally themselves which countries that basically break them 24/7. Not to mention Israel has murdered European citizens, detained them illegally as well and also spied in Europe using their software and mendleded in elections. I would somehow understand it if Israel had a lot of raw minerals or oil which is needed by countries to function. Like they are somewhat in good terms with Saudi Arabia which is not much better than Russia to me, however I get their POV. However Israel does not have rare earth. You can cut them out and be fine. Russia has way more resources yet they were cut out which shows that principles can indeed topple economical interests when they want. Since they cut out Russia, Israel would not be an issue at all. They re pretty small factor. I am not saying to cut them out forever or anything like that. If the country reforms and stops the illegal occupation and expansions they can become allies again. Germany went from an enemy to an ally. So things can change with time. I already made a threat a long time ago about why the West does not cut out Israel and I did not get a non racist, non supremaciest response. The only sensible major politican is Jeremy Corbyn, its a shame he was kicked out (not suprised though), he treated Israel as they deserved. Starmer is a pro Israeli shill unfortunately. There are of course MPs or leaders of smaller parties like the Green party that was recently interviewed by Piers Morgan but they are not major players. Let me not even get started on Tories or Reform...

But Israel and Azerbajan for taking land from others are apparanetly not bad which is why they are not banned from anything It is bad when Russia does not but not when others do it Which is the whole purpose of this thread

What about Azerbajan doing the same thing to Armenia in 2022? What bout Israel doing the same in West bank for decades now? Where is the ban for Azerbajan or Israel? Double standards much?

I am not saying Sarkozi pushed Gadaffi to do bad things to his people, I am saying that the reason he took him out is because Gadaffi illegally financed his campaign. By article 5 i mean if NATO attacks a country like France did with Libya, the rest of NATO is forced to join in for support. Perhaps Gadaffi was a bad person and deserved to die, I will not defend his morality. However, you need to look into what lead to it A rump state and tend of thousnads dead from civil wars that followed God knows how many dying from poverty or lack of good health care which was free under Gadaffi If you add these losses it is easily over 100.000 people Much more than Gadaffi killed I am not saying the West did horrible things in the process of taking him out, I am saying taking him out lead to far more deaths and the destruction of Libya Sometimes a devil is needed to keep a place together from becoming even a worse hell Which is why dictators exist. To keep a fragmented society from falling into civil wars and total anarchy and chaos. Their brutality keeps people at bay As horrible as dictatorships are , civil wars and chaos are worse Libya is a stage purple to red society, it needs a strong dictator to keep it together Do not confuse it with orange countries where they can maintain democracy Compare Libya today with Libya in 2010 and tell me which is better

I agree with Serbia but disagree with Gadaffi. You need to look at the alternative The alternative if they had not bombed Serbia would be genocide and ethnic cleansing. The bombing stopped that. Gadaffi was awful, sure. But taking him out was a disaster. That person held Libya together and kept order. As Leo has brilliantly said in his video about Understanding Democracy and Authoritarism, a tyrant is given power to protect the people from anarchy and chaos. Now that Gadaffi is gone, civil wars emerged and the country basically got screwed. They went from the best economy and standard of living (free oil, energy, health care etc) to a failed state. Far far more have died from this than would have died from Gadaffi if he had remained in power. Hence by taking him out they saved dozens but killed hundreds in the result. To me that is a mistake Sometimes a devil is better than anarchy and no government at all. The real reason he got taken out is because the corrupt French president Sarkozi had taken bribes from him to finance his elections and took him out to save his neck from corruption charges. France illegally attacked Syria and NATO joined in because of article 5. An example of aggression. Additionally USA had interested in wanting him gone because not only he was very pro Palestine but also he wanted to unite Arab states with a single currency which would go against USA interests. What did it lead to? Tens of thousnads dead and an entire country destroyed with no future It is funny that people use the same logic about taking out Saddam was a mistake when Saddam was worse than Gadaffi and Iraq has better state building prospects than Libya has. Today Iraq is not doing bad at all. Libya is a total disaster.