Karmadhi

PLO are not terrorists from what I checked, no country designates them as so Hamas are considered terrorists but they represent only Gaza and FYI https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/7/6/hamas-announces-dissolution-of-gaza-governing-body I feel Gazans have realized that Hamas type leadership does not solve their issues and through the hell they have living perhaps will realize a new way must be found Or am I being too optimistic? I have seen a lot of interviews with people in West Bank and tbf they seem pretty chill I see more hateful attitudes from Israelis than anything else I feel that perhaps due to different degree of brutal occupation, Gaza and West Bank are not the same West Bank seems more moderate, less religious fundamentalist and more mature overall It is reflected in their government which is recognized as a viable government by most of the world So your concerns and reasoning can apply to Gaza but to me Palestine is more West Bank than Gaza due to the size in population and land area.

How do you determine that? Is it because you are from there? Seems very biased to me this response. No nation is more worthy than another to exist, only biases make it so. They are doing a good job surviving, yes. But they can survive just as well with a good settlement deal backed up by Western powers. The reason that has not happened is because Ukraine is hell bent on getting its land back. On getting its land back, they have not gained anything in almost 5 years. It is not looking like they will get anything soon either. So in that regard they are not doing well. And all that "worth trying" attitude has killed hundred of thousands of Ukranians and cost the West hundreds of billions of dollars. Reducing Palestine to that seems to be a bit Islamophobic, no offense. The idea of "brown backward islamist Arabs that all that do is terrorism and cannot do anything else" is a classical trick used by to downgrade the whole Palestinian issue. Cenk says the same and I agree with him on that. Palestine issue is fundamentally about land and colonialism. Not radical Islam. Palestinian issue has been on for decades and it has never changed.

The entire response is moralizing, saying how Russia is so bad and why they are bad and must be stopped That is not the point The point is how to resolve it Yes, Russia is on the wrong here. But this is not about right/wrong it is about raw power dynamics Russia can take Ukranian land and Ukraine cannot get it back, no matter how hard they try. If all the stars align, which they usually do not, they will not loose much more land. Not get back land. So, how do you resolve this? See, here you starting moralizing instead of having the "you are outmatched better submit" attitude you have for Palestine Also, fyi Israel does take Palestinian land and would eat it all up if allowed.They are currently lobbying USA hard to get a greenlight to kick out Gazans so they can annex it. Israeli government does not even recognize Palestine as a thing, calls it a myth and is taking land every day in the West Bank. They are as bold as Russia. My response also applies to @hundreth

What I personally find a bit hypocritial from many centrists like Destiny or even non centrists like @Leo Gura is that when it comes to Israel and Palestine they seem to have a very pragmatic ruthless attitude not based on morals but on purely raw power dynamics Basically, Israel is on the wrong but Palestine is too weak to do anything about it so they must submit and allow Israel to get away with the bad things they did and heavily compromise. Because they cannot revoke the wrong-doings. Fair But when it comes to the Russia-Ukranian conflict, they do not have the same stance. They have the stance that Russia is on the wrong and Ukraine should keep fighting to reverse the wrong-doings of Russia. They should not submit but keep on fighting. Even though Russia is much more powerful than Ukraine and Ukraine realistically has no chance of gaining back any of the land they took nor Russian leaders facing serious trials for war crimes So basically, there it is a lot more idealistic and moralistic attitude meanwhile on Israel and Palestine it is basically "you lost, now submit to the one that fucked you" Now I agree that the power difference between Russia and Ukraine is no near as big, but it is big enough that it is still pretty impossible to resolve without any compromise from the side that got unfarily treated (Ukraine here). Especially since Trump came to power and basically removed a lot of aid and there is even an air defense Western shortage thanks to the Iran war. I find it interesting that when I speak with hardcore Pro Palis and I tell them they need to do a 2 state, I get the response (you do not lower your head when someone comes to your house, takes your house, rapes you and tortures you) When I say to an Ukranian or someone very pro Ukraine that Ukraine needs to probably make some compromises to Russia I get the response (you do not lower your head when someone comes to your house, takes your house, rapes you and tortures you) Both sides view it in a similar way even though they will each say 'but that other conflict is different" Yet 1 side should compromise and submit meanwhile the other is encourged to fight on against impossible odds according to centrists. I find this a bit bizzare. Personally I support both Ukraine and Palestine, do not get the wrong idea here. But I feel compromise is needed on both sides, not just for 1 conflict. Ironically I get called here a leftist but when it comes to Ukraine I am extremly realistic and pragmatic and not moralistic at all. @Raze What do you think about this or I have the wrong idea?

Israeli and American mainstream propaganda make Hamas seem like the face of Palestine I feel Leo has somewhat fallen for that too

Is there Hamas in the West Bank? Where? I have not seen it Or is only Gaza Palestine according to you? Also if Israel does not care about morals, why are they not sanctioned? You keep avoiding this question According to you just because Israel lost 1000 people they can do genocide and the world should just let it happen and be like "well they were attacked so they gotta do what they gotta do"

I do not think so, a better analogy would be the slave revolts where slaves killed their owners indiscrimiantely Or the Warsaw Uprising during WW2 in 1944

If they had been occupied by decades from Russia brutally, they could have perhaps No reason for Ukraine to declare war to Russia randomly and do such an act They are an independent state I will say it a third time, why Israeli war crimes are not sanctioned while Russian war crimes are?

The issue to me with @Leo Gura s argument is that he acts as if that region is an isolated island and there is no rest of the world I do agree that Israel may feel they need to overeact given their situation Fine But the rest of the world should act up if they go too far, sanction them and cut ties They did that with Russia when it invaded Ukraine Why Israel gets special treatment? That is the core issue here If you want to be 100% pragmatic and ignore all laws, it is much more hurtful to sanction Russia than Israel, given how important Russian resources are Sanctioning Russia will hurt economies much more than Israel who is much less useful They are useful, but way less than Russia However, they are not sanctioned while Russia is Even from a non-moralistic purely pragmatic pov it makes no sense

The funny part is that when people use the same logic about Ukraine and the West provoking Russia, they are called pro Russian and say it is not fair, Russia has no right to over react, lets sanction Russia etc Israel will be shameless but the issue is them not being punished for it Like Russia shameless over-reaction was punished Why is Russia sanctioned for war crimes and Israel is not?

When it comes to Israel it is the opposite I view them as less developed than you do Just saying

You are basically describing Hamas which is a minority of Palestinians Majority of Palestinians live under PLO, which is none of those things It is a Stage Blue nationalist movement that is not suicidal Gaza is not Palestine Palestine is Gaza plus West Bank Putting them on red/purple is your opinion, I think they are mostly Blue with some Red when it comes to Hamas These are not exact math I think we fundamentally disagree on the level of development of Palestinian society If you view Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank as overwhealmingly Stage Red, then all your points stand If you view them mostly Blue like I do then they do not stand "Meanwhile you have a fantasy of peaceful Palestinians. Because the liberal minds projects itself onto them." I simply view them as more developed than you do which is why I believe them to be sane enough not to do a suicidal attack once they get a proper state If Palestine was ONLY Gaza then I would consider your point a lot more But I have not seen anything from West Bank to show me they are suicidal Also I do not view them as peaceful. Just not suicidal I dont expect them to allow Israelis to travel or work in the new Palestinian state if they get one. Also I am indeed liberal but not libtard. I come off as somewhat too left here but in real life in other topics I am more reasonable that I may appear here Sorry for that

You can have that area with an UN military base or Gulf country army base to keep Palestinians from using it. Or it can be some sort of border zone. You have such situations in other countries and it has worked out

And why do you assume they will continue being suicidal? You are assuming as well as I am. The majority of Palestinians live in the West Bank under the PLO which is not suicidal. What I believe that new state will be, is another Jordan. Jordan already has like half of the population as Palestinians. Israeli leadership funded Hamas to weaken the more moderate Palestinian entities. They intentionally kept Palestinians ruled by the most radical factions to show they are too primitive to reason with. They did not act in good faith. Netanyahu has been caught on tape admitting this. By not giving Palestine a state they will keep getting attacked. It is not like the status quo is working great for them

An agreement can include a de-militarized zone on the most fragile location that could indeed pose such a threat There are many ways to make it work if Israel really wants The reason they do not want is because they want all of Judea and Samaria cuz God gave it to them Anything else is lame excuses