Karmadhi

Was it systematic in America? Were there debates on live TV and in congress about whether it is ok to torture and rape people in American prisons in Iraq? Because in Israel you had ministers and politicans say that it is ok to rape Palestinians in prisons. As far as I know, America covered it up and apologized when it became public. Israel thinks it is moral and ok to do. I doubt America had this going on, although I was too young back then to know anything. You also had catholic priests abuse childreen but you never had the catholic church openly discuss whether it is ok for catholic priests to sexually abuse kids. Israeli lawmaker defends alleged rape of Hamas prisoner as far-right protesters rage over IDF troops' detention - CBS News ‘Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape (msn.com) Israel’s Torture & Rape of Palestinian Prisoners Defended by Knesset Members, Far-Right Mobs | Democracy Now! And the case where 10 soldiers were detained they were now released and they roam free. In an orange society they would be locked for a criminal offense. I do not see Russians being raped, tortured, starved in Ukranian prisons systemically and massively , so this type of treatment is not "normal". Even though Russia has done to Ukraine 1000x worse than Hamas ever did to Israel. Majority of Palestinians in Israeli prisons suffer torture. Childreen too. If this is orange behavior, then I gave orange too much credit. PS: My main criticism here is on the far right Israelis, I have seen comments from more moderate Israelis condemn the incident.

Fair, noted. I feel like when it comes to this war, some of us here are more informed about all the atrocities that Israel has done which is why we struggle to put them anything above Blue. For example do you know there is widespread rape, torture of Palestinians in Isareli prisons? There are countless clips of Israeli soldiers mocking the destruction in Gaza. Endless online comments of Israelis wishing for more deaths of Palestinians and saying nobody in Gaza is innocent. Tons of genocidal comments from Israeli top politicans. When you see all this, it is hard to feel this is a morally developed society. It is not just that they bomb Gaza. They snipe kids, intentionally bomb civilians, rape and torture prisoners, celebrate deaths of Palestinians at large, engineer a famine, etc etc. Just "not nuking gaza" is not enough to call a country "developed". Russia has not nuked Ukraine. What suprised me about Hamas, is that they did not really abuse their hostages. I saw interviews with them, even the 4 rescued ones and their biggest issue was boredom and fear of being bombed by Israel. I would except them to be like the Ukranian prisoners when Russia exchanges them. Half starved, bruised, so in horrible condition. But they seemed totally fine. That act made me somewhat questioned Hamas development. A true red organization would give in on the temptation to rip them apart limb from limb given the carnage Israel has unleashed on Gaza.

Keep in mind, development is not just how you treat other countries but also how you treat your own people. India had a ruthless cast system which prohibited any upward mobility which still exists even today in a low degree. The West created the first human rights bills, ended slavery and overall had the most equal and democratic structures for the time. So in that sense they were indeed more developed. Issue is that the West had a pretty small circle of concern. Racism was their biggest issue. It is kind of how the Nazis treated their own people much better than the Soviets, but the Nazis were much more inhumane to other countries than the Soviets were. So the question is, who is indeed more developed?

What advice do you have for a proper green to go to yellow? It is almost impossible to meet yellow people. Except books and the channels you have suggested, any other way? Green to Yellow is a huge gap after all. Especially on an emotional level. We all here know about developmental stages etc, but emotionally we feel social justice like. How do you transcend that? I am personally struggling with it.

Yeah I get you. Social justice warriors do not consider that as important as being kind, caring , fair, honest etc. Nazi Germany was pretty organized and had clear structures. Yet green people will consider it less developed than African tribes because of their inhumane actions. I am not taking sides here, just reporting.

I would say the West is morally more developed than the Middle East for sure. But they seem to be massive hypocrites which pisses off a lot of people. For some reason, people respect and appreciate more an honest bully like Putin than a lying, deceptive, hypocritcal partial bully like the USA. The reason I do not know personally, just reporting it here. If someone knows why, feel free to let us. I am curious haha.

I think social justice warriors in this forum have a different view of what they call "development". We usually talk about moral development when we say a country is better or not. To dominate, bully, conquer, etc you need technological development. For example the Europeans were not morally more development than the Incas, but they had better technology. Which is why they wiped them out. Same with Homo Sapiens wiping out the Neanderthals. Survival skills is 1 thing. Moral development is another.

@Leo Gura Leo, the issue here is that in every society you have extremists and moderates. In Israel moderates would be people like Benny Gantz and extremists people like Ben Gvir. In Palestine, moderates are the PLO and extremists would be Hamas or the Islamic Jihad. When you create suffering, oppression etc for a group of people, it creates the conditions for extremists to take over and become the most popular. The whole reason Nazis took over Germany was because of the 1929 crisis and the Versaille Treaty. What Israel does to Palestine and especially Gaza (no Hamas in West Bank), is create the conditions for the radicals to rise up and become popular. If Israel would cease this oppression and occupation, then Hamas would become less attractive. Maybe the top leadership will exist, the ideology will exist, but they will find it much harder to recruit soldiers. The ideology would slowly die since the conditions that keep it strong are no longer there. Radicalism is a byproduct of certain harsh survival conditions, if those conditions are changed, the radicalism will die out. For example the West Bank which is less oppressed, is ruled by the PLO. PLO I would put at mostly Blue, they cooperate with Israel and are not genocidal like Hamas. Why so? Because West Bank is not as oppressed nor poor as Gaza. Now, regarding military, perhaps they can at first have a state with no strong military in a transition period to eliminate teh chances of radicals hijacking it. As long as Israel cannot bully them by illegally taking their land, blockading them, bombing them at will, kidnapping people at night etc. This is what causes the oppression and suffering and hatred of Palestinians towards Israelis. If they had a proper state, IDF could not enter their homes at will, demolish them and arrest people who resisted it and put them on a military trial without charges. This would be a start. What do you think?

To elaborate, they were doing an ethnic cleansing in Kosovo which could have easily lead to genocide. 750.000 Kosovo refugees went to my country until the war was over. 10.000 civilians killed and over 20.000 women raped. So Serbia bombing was not out of the blue, it was because of their horrible policies. @Bobby_2021 I wish they also had intervened in Rwanda in 1994. Sometimes military intervations are a good thing. When a minority is oppressed by a powerful majority, sometimes interventions can be good. If NATO decided to attack Israel to end the Gaza war (it will not happen, just hypothetically) , I would endorse that as well. Issue with Iraq or Afghanistan is that that was not the case. At least, as far as I know.

Israeli government currently is mostly blue. I think you are not aware of how fundamentalist they are. Previous Israeli governments have indeed been between orange and blue with some green. This one is quite blue. https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/ This is not how orange thinks.

Dont you think that Hamas is a by product of Israel oppression and if that oppression would cease, then Hamas would die as an ideology? What makes Hamas to keep recruiting soldiers is that oppression. If it was to cease, most people would not want to join them anymore. What do you think of this?

@Leo Gura Nobody here says that Hamas is a force for good (Zionists say it about Israel). Nobody here says that Hamas are not terrorists (Zionists will never say Israelis are terrorists). Nobody here says that what Hamas did is justified or okay (Zionists do it). So it is not a fair comparison. You can call us biased, sure. But not equivalent. A true equivalence would be if people here said Hamas is good and Israel is bad. Which is the opposite statement of Zionists. But I agree with you calling us social justice warriors. It is hard to grow out of it. I am 26, still young. I started watching your content 4 years ago and I was mostly Orange with some Green. Now I feel like I have evolved into solid green. It is now a challenge to evolve into Yellow. I will try. There is not much Yellow material out there and impossible to meet Yellow people. I am surrounded by Green people.

We do not have skin in the game unlike Zionisnts. Our only bias is social justice and naive empathy for oppressed people. Nobody here says that Hamas is a force for good (Zionists say it about Israel). Nobody here says that Hamas are not terrorists (Zionists will never say Israelis are terrorists). Nobody here says that what Hamas did is justified or okay (Zionists do it). So it is not a fair comparison. You can call us biased, sure. But not equivalent. A true equivalence would be if people here said Hamas is good and Israel is bad. Which is the opposite statement of Zionists.

May I ask what draws you to this conclusion? 1 massacre? You know Russians did a similar thing in Bucha for example, yet nobody says that Russians want to do a genocide Holocaust type on Ukranians Massacres happen in tons of wars. Regarding Hamas rhetoric, I have not seen them say that they want to holocaust Israelis, only that they want to destroy Israel as an institution, which would entail ethnic cleansing. If there are sources of Hamas leadership say "kill all Jews", then I will change my mind. The Israelis here are welcome to provide such sources if they want. The fundamental issue here is that so many Palestinians have been through so much under Israeli atrocities that I cannot help but understand their desire for revenge. However, I do not feel like Israelis have went through the same suffering to make me understand what they are have done to Palestine. The best example is 2014, where basically no Israeli civilian got killed but 1500 Palestinian civilians and around 500 children got killed. Those people probably were involved in the October attack. I think in my case it is Green being empathetic to Red, which is what you have said in your Spiral Dynamics video. I do not know. I can admit that Hamas is worse than Israeli people like Yair Lapid or Benny Gantz. But I do not think they are worse than far right people like Ben Gvir or Smotrich. The only difference is that they have other more moderate Israelis and the rest of the world holding them in check. Hamas has nobody to hold them back. If Ben Gvir was dictator of Israel and had no chains from the West, I think he would not be much different from Hamas.

Do you think Hamas would do a Holocaust type genocide on Israelis if they could? I am not an expert on Hamas but I have seen that their charter is the destruction of Israel, that would entail taking all their land and kicking out the jews which is basically ethnic cleansing. Of course tons will also be killed for that to happen. I have not seen Hamas say they want to do a proper genocide. October 7th was their first time ever that they had their hands on large amounts of civilians so of course they would over react and go berserk. An abused person will abuse the first time he gets some sort of break from the cycle of being abused. I do think some of top Hamas leadership is proper genocidal but I doubt all their soldiers are. Keep in mind, those that did the October attack were mostly orphans killed by Israeli strikes, so they were probably the most ruthless Hamas people that had personal stakes on this. It reminded me of Soviets raping and murdering German civilians when they finally got their hands on them during the end of the second world war. They had suffered so much under the Nazis that many of them started abusing Germans.

What would Israel gain by nuking Gaza really? 1. Their hostages would be more likely all killed, resulting in massive protests and possibly a overthrow of the current government. 2. Their reputation would be totally destroyed. 3. Hamas would still survive since they operate 50 meters underground where a nuke will not damage them as much. 4. Israel can easily bomb Gaza with impunity without needing to use Nukes. So why should they even nuke Gaza?

You literally have said in previous posts on this thread that there is reasonable evidence according to the ICJ that Israel is doing genocide in Gaza. Of course Israel cannot be as open as Hamas about it because they have a PR to hold. But do you really think Israel cares about Palestinian civilians more than Hamas cares about Israeli civilians? https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/ The only difference is that in Israel you have some Hamas like people (one I sent above) and some more moderate meanwhile with Hamas everyone is extreme.

https://theconversation.com/one-third-of-ukrainians-would-give-up-land-for-peace-but-its-not-as-simple-as-that-235491 What do you guys think of this? It says it was around 10% last year and now it is 32%. I can imagine this will only increase. Perhaps this is how the war will end.

There were like 1000 people in total for the attack. That is a relatively small number on the grand scheme of things. What will Ukraine do once they are eventually killed? Keep in mind Ukraine sent a top unit for it, not your average soldier. True, only issue is Russia has like 5x the number of soldiers and can easily recruit more. If Ukraine had equal manpower things would be more interesting. But I do not see Ukraine doing any big pushes or holding territory because their troops cannot be replaced. They are desperate for manpower. They should have done this on their counter offensive last year when they had more soldiers. This attack, although effective, is too little too late. It reminds me of the German offensive during the Battle of the Bulge in 1944 (if you are a WW2 nerd like me haha). Still, kudos to Ukraine. They have embarrassed Russia and given themselves tons of prisoners to do future prisoner exchanges. But I do not see this changing the course of the war by any meaningful margin.

Can you explain to me one thing. Israeli logic basically says since Hamas did October 7th, then Israeli society is justified to wipe them out. But what about for example the 2014 Israeli terroristic attacks which killed 3x the number of Palestinian civilians and no Israeli civilians were killed. Does it justify Hamas to want to wipe out the IDF? I am just curious because you seem to downgrade the fact that in the overall picture, Israeli civilian losses are very low compared to Palestine. Not true. Only radical ones. You can thank your Prime Minister for trying to push radical groups like Hamas and silence more moderate groups. How about a two state solution or 1 state where everyone has equal voting rights? Did Israel offer to give them a proper state with equal rights? Curious. Because I read the Oslo accords were not a full statehood. Also when Israel left Gaza, they still did a huge blockade on them.

I dont get what Ukraine is trying to do here. In the long run the territory will be lost anyway. I saw that the unit that pushed in Russia is one of their best and was fully equipped, basically Ukraine s best. Why did they not use this unit to simply defend the East which is being slowly over run by Russia? This would be the best idea in my opinion but I doubt they can hold it for long. I saw it is a unit of 1000 people or something. They will eventually be overrun. Very embarrassing for Russia though, in the very least this is a PR victory for Ukraine.

And Israeli officials have not? Read what Ben Gvir and other key politicians have said. How is it any different? The International Court has said there is reasonable case to think Israeli is doing a genocide in Gaza so how exactly is Hamas 10 times worse? Obviously Israel has a reputation and PR to maintain so they cannot do it as blatantly but the intent and actions are all there. And since you use the nuke argument. The reason Israel does not use nukes its not because it is developed enough not to, its because it simply does not need it due to the huge difference in power. If Israel was cornered in the same way Hamas is, they would totally use it. It is the same reason why Russia has not used nukes in Ukraine yet. Simply they do not need them. Regarding atrocities all I have seen Hamas do is shoot people in the head and rape. Regarding rape, we do not know the scale. Rape in itself is something that happens in every war. Israelis have also done it in Gaza. Shooting people same thing. I just saw a horrible clip of a Gaza mother and baby locked in a house and the house was sat on fire. The IDF soldier was singing on the background while the baby was heard screaming. The IDF guy himself posted it on social media. When you can show me such things done by Hamas then I will believe you The last time i saw such a thing was from a movie called come and see which shows some SS staff doing to a belarusian village

Dude you guys are rich first world people that live super well. People were partying smoking weed when the attack happened. People chill on beaches and overall have great services and social security. The civilian death toll in the last 20 years has been super low (prior to the october attacks), probably more Israelis died from suicide or obesity compared to from Palestinians. That is why we have so little empathy for them. because most of them didnt endure any hardships from the other side

Sorry Leo but your numbers are way off. Its 700 civilians killed and Israel admitted some were killed by their own under the Hannibal doctrine. So most likely Hamas killed around 500 civilians. Also by your own logic Israel is also genocidal by their own admission. So is it ok for Hamas to attack Israel so Israel wont grow like cancer and devour more of Palestine?

Also to ethnically cleanse Gaza by making it impossible to habit by people. From that lens their bombing and destruction of water supplies, civilian housing, hospitals, schools and agricultural land checks out