Karmadhi

Tell this to Israelis. They do not seem to understand simple logic. I have dont worry. I do not understand what is so weird about that the idea that a democracy can also be racist. USA was racist before the 1960s, Nazis were democratically elected and their anti jew agenda was clear even before they were elected, same with some right wing governments like that of Hungary. Is it so unbelieve that Israel is one of these countries? Non openly racist countries are kind of rare to be honest.

I do not see Americans secretly making black people infertile. If it was discovered it would make a gigantic scandal. Only an openly racist country like Israel or Russia can get away with it.

I take it 100 times more seriously than a government caught many times in lying and that is openly racist. This is how your country treats Ethiopian JEWS because they are not "white enough". Disgusting Israel Admits Targeting Ethiopian Jews for Compulsory Contraception | Center for Genetics and Society (Link cannot be send, just google it and you will find it). Are Ethiopian Jews Israel's second-class citizens? – DW – 09/29/2018 You can find many articles showing different treatment of non white jews. How can I take such a country seriously when it comes to them dealing with other ethnic groups? When they do this to their OWN PEOPLE just because they are not "white enough".

I dont understand what is the rationale of Ukraine for continuing to fight when they cannot possibly win. It just causes more deaths for them unnecessarily and it further weakness their position on the negotiation table when the time comes to discuss capitulation. Do you find it wise what Ukraine is doing?

I think that Israel s issue here is this: Focusing on destruction not precision is the issue here. If they focused on precision and not destruction then I would understand. But if your official spokeperson of the army says this then how can I argue with him? They admit it. https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing. This is not acceptable. I am not denying some civilians would die but when you focus on precision the number is reduced. They are admittingly not doing it. The 80 civilians for 1 Hamas is direct proof of it. Leo, most liberals, UN, many governments are very critical of this policy.

Beautiful video.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing Focusing on destruction not precision is the issue here. If they focused on precision and not destruction then I would understand. But if your official spokeperson of the army says this then how can I argue with him? They admit it.

Killing 50 civilians for 1 Hamas fighter death is not acceptable and is barbaric. It reminds me of Stalin who said once: "If we kill 50 people and 1 of them is an enemy of the state then we did a good job". That is the level Israel has fallen into. Sad. You need to think why the support for Palestine is so big and growing especially among educated western liberals. Why UN said that Israel is commiting a ton of war crimes. Why many governments even in the West (Ireland, Spain, even Belgium today) are saying Israel is going too far and they should be punished. Say whatever you want but if half the people you kill are kids, 10000% innocent kids, you are doing a shit job. Israel is basically devolving into Russia level of warfare conducting. Mass shelling civilians, cutting out electricity, water etc. They will for sure become the most hated country in the world by the end of the year. I wonder how will that actually make Jews around the world feel safe (quoting Leo here).

You need to understand that in the eyes of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and even most of Western liberals Israel started this by kicking out 750.000 Palestinians and murdering many during the Nakba. EVERYTHING after that is a response to it. If you steal my house then do not be suprised if I attack you back, I am not provocing you. https://www.google.com/search?q=nakba+territory+loss&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjR4MnbgriCAxU53wIHHffRABkQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=nakba+territory+loss&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoHCAAQigUQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BggAEAgQHjoICAAQgAQQsQM6CQgAEAgQHhDHAzoECAAQHjoHCAAQGBCABFCgBljKJmCYJ2gCcAB4AIABUIgBhgiSAQIyM5gBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=i2RNZZHvIbm-i-gP96ODyAE&bih=739&biw=1536&rlz=1C1GCEU_enBE1021BE1021#imgrc=HdcFBp_OeyH9PM All the territory taken by Israel after 1947 UN creating Israel which the world agreed upon (mostly) is pure theft and people have the right to be angry about it. You can make the argument that the Jews should have a state there but the territory granted to you by the UN is that of 1947, any territory on top of that is land you stole illegally. Kicking out 750.000 people is proof of that. You do not kick out that many people if the land is actually yours.

@Breakingthewall Not pride but land and their cause. It is the typical nationalism which you also find in Ukraine. They are willing to sacrifice all their youth as long as the country does not get occupied by Russia. Most wars in history are fought over land. That is true. Both their governments are extreme nationalists. Both got to go IMO. I feel like Israel is being hurt way more politically because their appearances are a lot more important to them. Hamas was already a terrorist organization while Israel was not. Now both are being treated as such in the eyes of a lot of people. Although Israel from a humaniatrian perspective is not hurt a lot its reputation is taking a huge blow. Combine it with a rise in anti semitism around the world. And there was plenty of it even before this.

@Breakingthewall Provoke Israel to over react and Israel did that. Now Israel reputation (also the USA) is lowest its even been. The world is mad at them. Anti Semitism around the world is on the rise. Also a lot more sympathy for Palestine and a two state solution is now being discussed which was out of the question. Lastly it is a desperate attempt for Arab support on the Palestinian cause which was almost gone. Saudi Arabia siging the treaty with Israel would be the death of Palestine. These guys are nationalists, they see it from a nationalistic perspective not humanitarian. So if 20.000 Palestinians need to be sacrificed for Palestine to still exist they will do it. A humanitarian liberal cares about preservation of life firstly, not preservation of a "state".

@DawnC @Nivsch @DawnC I dont think any sane person would say that Hamas fighters are more humane than the IDF, however there are factors to consider. 1. Hamas is way weaker so it will be more ruthless. 2. Hamas fighters have suffered a lot under Israel so they have reasons to be ruthless, many are orphans whose parents were killed by Israel. Meanwhile IDF soldiers are usually first world boys who never had any pain come from them from Gaza so their brutality is a lot less justifiable. 3. Israel is more educated, more developed society so their brutality is less acceptable. We hold them on higher standards. 4. Israel is an occupier and therefore its aggresson is seen as more unfair than Hamas agression which is that of the occupied fighting back (although inhumanely). I dont know what you think on these points.

Man USA is the bastion of fairness, democracy and human rights. Those are their core values. If USA does not treat everyone the same they are going against their core values which is a major red flag. The reason people are so mad at USA is precisely that. Russia does not have those values so when it does bad things people accept it because they are open about being the way they are. From USA we expect more.

Many claim Israel will annex Gaza if the refugees leave. Russia invaded Ukraine so the country will not join NATO and to take the lands which are mostly Russian and should not be in Ukraine in the first place. I doubt they would have annexed Ukrainian majority populated lands. If you are a Russian in Ukraine being annexed by Russia kinda makes sense. Now though considering the many people killed in Russia they will probably annex more than just the contraversial areas like Donbask where there was war even before the invasion. Maybe I see it differently but if X land is populated by X people historically it should belong to the mother country, and if war is done to take it it is justifible because those people will live in the country where they belong. The issue is invading country that is totally different from yours. So if Russia invades Georgia and annexes it it is a mistake. Or if Russia takes part of Ukraine which are mostly Ukranian.

Interesting how Hamas attack which was old textbook military stuff is seen as this barbaric attack while Israeli response which is also old textbook military stuff is seen as "ok". Both are doing pre international law tactics yet only 1 side is frowned upon by governments.

Is Israel sanctioned? Are its leaders being called up or will be called up for war crimes? It is not equal treatment. It does not matter if 20.000 liberals march into Washington against Israel policies, what matters is that the actual governments punish Israel which they are not and probably will not do. I have heard plenty of reports that they keep weapons in civilian homes which is why Russia bombs them but I do not know if these claims are true.

How come when Russia did similar things in Mauripol during its siege everyone lost their shit and called them "war criminals" "animals" etc. Double standards right here... Russia would treat Ukraine way better than Israel treats Palestine and it would not kick them out of their homes if it won the war in its beginnings yet the struggle for Ukrainians to fight is praised upon. When Palestinians do it is frowned upon. The steaks for Palestinians here is higher because Russia sees Ukraine as part of itself while Israel sees Palestinians as inferior. You are talking about legal technicalities. Point is if someone kicks you out of your home, their cause to take revenge on you is just and understandable. Palestinian hatred towards Israel is justified. It does not justify Hamas atrocities though, but it makes them understandable. Also add on top of it treating them like shit for decades on top of taking their land. Calling this an unprovoked attack is not honest. It was bound to happen.

@Nivsch Thank you for your detailed response. Would you agree that the settlements in the West Bank needs to stop and the current government with the PM need to be replaced with a less right wing, less racist government for peace to follow? Also, I read that the current PM was on the process of changing the judiciary system to enhance his political power and Israelis were angry about that. What are your thoughts on that?

@Nivsch Since you seem a reasonable Israeli, I have a question. How is the Nakba justified in Israeli society, I saw a video of a Jewish professor saying you cannot even mention it there. Are Israelis aware of it and if yes, how is it justified? Nakba - Wikipedia for info.

Leo has said that Jews tend to have a lot of power in the US lobbying and therefore US (and europe because of US) tend to support Israel a lot. What do you think about it? Also there is some sort of racism towards Arabs from the west unfortunately. I feel like if it was not Israel but another arab country attacked the same way Hamas did, they would not react the same way.

I would create a clear policy. 1 Hamas fighter death is not worth 1 Palestinian kid death. That rule would not be broken. Simple.

Their REP literally said we would do a different approach if it was Israeli civilians instead so they are not doing their best at all. If they said: "Yes we would kill them the same because there is no other solution" then I would believe that there is no other way. But there is Also do you realize that these policies will create a new Hamas, probably more ruthless than the old one. To kill 1 Hamas person, they efficectvly laid the seeds for multiple new Hamas people to rise up in time. It is like the Hydra, you cut 1 head and 3 others replace it. For their own good Israel should not do this. Jew reputation is at its historical lowest since the 1930s and all of the Arab countries are mad at Israel. You have 2.2 million people that all lost a relative and their house. Even 1% of them becoming terrorists, you got now a new Hamas, probably more ruthless. Also most people affected are young, which makes it easier to convince them to become future terrorists. Iran, ISIS, Hesbullah, Talibans etc etc will be there to guide them to it. How do you plan to deal with this? I am curious. I am talking for your own country's good here. It is bad for the West also. A part of these new refugees will find their way in the West and relocated there as war refugees. When you got 2.2 milion people you are guaranteed for new terrorist acts to happen. And i am not even counting the already million of Arabs living in the West that are mad at Israel and the west. Biden is facing a chance to loose some states just because of muslims that historically voted democrat to not vote anymore for democrats. Giving rise to Trump. These things are not being thought through well I feel.

@DawnC What about West Bank? Why Israelis treat them like shit? No Hamas in West Bank, and Israelis keep taking land. It is just adding more fuel to the fire. Do not ignore that...

@Tobia How come Bush did that? Interesting... Did USA Israel relation get closer since then or was Bush less pro Israel?

@Nivsch I saw this interview here which basically said: "Would Israeli do the same tactics if Hamas was hiding among Israelis. The guy said "No". Now, I do agree that Israeli will care more about their own citizen lives than another country, I cannot realistically expect them not to. However, it shows that if Israel truly wanted, they could find ways to hit Hamas with less collateral damage. They are choosing the easy way out. "Oh there is an enemy somewhere there? Fuck it, just blow the whole area it will get him in the end". "What about all the civilians there"? "Fuck them, they support Hamas so they deserve to die along with them". There was a Piers Morgan interview with an Israeli ex PM (bald guy dont remember his name) and the guy legit said: "Many people in Gaza support Hamas, they are not independent variables". If a PM has that attitude it clarifies a lot about the fact that indeed Israelis think that Palestinians in Gaza are with Hamas and are all seen as the enemy. It would explain a lot with this carpet bombing bs. Now maybe some older people may support Hamas (and that is understandable) but half dying are young kids which are 100000% innocent and therefore this is barbaric. Imagine saying "Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas in 2006, they like them" when literally half that are dying were not even born then. It is the same logic saying to German kids born in 1960s "You guys elected the Nazis so you like and support him'