Karmadhi

@zazen Nothing surprises me about IDF anymore at this point...

@Twentyfirst No no the IDF is professional moral army while Hamas are barbarians. If there is any proof that shows that IDF is also barbarians then by default you anti semitie

I love how the Pro Israelis here are quick to point out Hamas rapes and torture of civilians but when countless sources are sent here that say that the IDF has done similar stuff throughout the years, they are silent and conveniently ignore them. Biases 101

@Lila9 Issue is that Benjamin get support from the West while Yahya Sinwar does not. He is a terrorist for sure. Yet Benjamin is not. When both are horrible. This is the issue. Nobody denies Yahya sucks.

Thinking Hamas can destroy Israel is equally deluded. They can just poke at it. Not more. When ur president of Russia you cannot afford a superpower at your backdoor. NATO is mostly USA, not just Europe and USA has illegally invaded countries and bombed civilians so it is not so crazy to think they might be a threat. Technically USA in the last 30 years has been equally if not more involved in wars compared to Russia

Im not an expert in Russia but I know many that lived there and they were not that poor. Like people in cities where they lived. Sure its not western europe but the world has way way poorer. The country itself is classified as a upper middle economy.

Sure but dont you think that is inherently racist since whites tend to be better educated due to better upbringings?

@Vrubel Dude they were driven from their homes and put into a big prison controlled by Israel before Hamas even came to power. All the areas around Gaza are not even Israeli to begin with. Its stolen land. Also Israel blocked them having airports etc.

Do some research before making such absurd claims. It is more like: The people that have not suffered are less justified in barbarism than those that suffered. Most Israelis have not suffered compared to most people in Gaza. Russia is the largest country in the world and biggest nuclear power. Those alone give them a lot of power and influence. Also they have influence over a lot of countries, ex USSR ones and now also becoming popular with Africa. Also friends with China. I would put Russia below USA and China. However Russia has a lot of control and it quickly making friends with fast developing countries in Africa. I would also like that but unfortunately Russia is still too underdeveloped to see the West as an ally. Also the West is quite judgemental about Russia and wants to make them USA s bitch. Russia has a lot of pride for that. So here we are. Ideally I would see Russia as part of EU and all the continent united under 1. Maybe one day. However as long as USA controls EU it will not happen unfortunately. I know many that live in Russia and they said that life barely changed after the war. People live the same. Meanwhile Western Europe has a big energy crisis and most of the middle class is suffering. Cutting gas supply from Russia was a big mistake. Crimea being part of Ukraine was already a big mistake to being with. Why should a place where majority are Russians be part of Ukraine that does not even have Russian as an official language? It is absurd. Belgium for example has less than 1% of its population German speakers, yet German is an official language. This is what true democracy looks like. Ukraine was anti Russian in some ways before the war, at least language wise. There could be if NATO joined. You cannot take that risk. Keep in mind Russia has historically been invaded through Ukraine so it cannot afford such carelessness. Nazis invaded USSR the same way. They have historical reasons to be paranoid. Still an illegal invasion of a sovereign country. Keep in mind Russia at first did not plan to actually annex Ukraine, just overthrow their anti Russian government and install a pro Russian one. Not saying it is right but it makes sense.

For sure Palestinians could have done things better. Good never ends. However considering their situation it is a lot harder for them to be expected to be perfect. I mean people in Gaza have family members dead, live in shit conditions etc. Meanwhile Israelis never had anyone die and live in rich land. By default who is expected more to behave properly? It is not rocket science. Leo said it perfectly in an old thread. It is about a multipolar world and not being USA s bitch. USA wants a uni polar world with itself at the core and Russia does not want that. It has nothing to do with imperial glory. It has to do with Russian value systems not corrupted by Western values which they see as dangerous. Crimea should not be in Ukraine. It has no Ukranians and a referendum done like 97% wanted to be in Russia. So it should be part of Russia. Ukranian nationalists can cry all they want about it. I used to think Russia did a big mistake with attacking Ukraine but from what I am seeing they are doing fine with all the sanctions while the West of Europe is struggling economically with the big gas price increase. Especially Germany. So I do not know who suffered more here. Palestine suffered a lot more than Russia did so I do symapthize a lot with Palestinians and see them as victims. I do not see Russia as victims nor support what they do. I just understand where they are coming from. Also can you please reply to this: How come when USA invaded Cuba because Russia wanted to put nuclear missles there it was ok but when Russia does the same with Ukraine everyone looses their shit? See the double standards. Russia having NATO (USA) missles at its backyard is ok but when USA has Russian missles at its backyard they loose their shit and invade. And that is apparently ok. When Russia does it, it is not. Hypocrisy

A big issue which comes from Western propaganda is linking Hamas with religion when it is actually about land. The hatred they have towards Jews is not because of religion, it is because of how they were treated. They might be stage red but religion has nothing to do with their actions. If you grew up in a man made concentration camp you would sing a different tune.

Because of how they were treated by Israelis. It is cause and effect. If Israel treated them well they would not have the incentive to do this. You are ignoring all the shit they went through. If you were born in Gaza, you would be happy if you killed Jews too. And Israel is the one that put them in that spot. Sure but Hamas cannot wipe out Israel. NATO can wipe out Russia. Big difference. This is some insane bias you have here. To YOU they are good. To Russia they are a powerful organization that was created against them. They have illegally invaded countries like Iraq so it is not like they do not wage war. From Russia POV they are a serious threat and therefore cannot be allowed at their doorstep. You cannot allow that sort of threat next to you. Just ask yourself this. If Russia put its nuclear missles in Cuba how would USA react. Oh yes, they reacted by invading Cuba. So USA is just like Russia when it comes to this. Just to be clear, I do not support what Russia did but I do understand why they did it. Nor are their war crimes justifiable. However the death toll in Ukraine from what I saw is 10.000 civilians in 2 years of war and a population of 40.000.000 compared to 15.000 civilians in 2 months and a population of 2 million. Also 500 kids dead in Ukraine compared to 5000 in Gaza. So Ukraine seems a lot more humane war to me.

Well Gaza has suffered a lot more from Israel than Ukraine from Russia since decades so it makes sense Hamas will be more hateful than Ukranians. Because fighting is happening in their own land, they have no chance to show their "humanity". If Ukraine started invading Russian towns full of civilians then you can say they are "better". Until then you cannot prove it. How you treat civilians shows how "humane" your army is. But I would agree that Russians are very ruthless. Proof for such claims? They had their current government for over 8 years and it was still very corrupt and poor. They did not do any reforms until the war started when it came to cleaning up corruption. Not allowing it is one thing. Calling it "an existential threat" is another. Killing 20x more civilians and commiting genocide is not a solution to a few hundred dead. Also, a few hundred dead if it is a legit security concern to you, imagine the threat of your whole country getting destroyed and everyone dying. That is the threat Russia faces with NATO at its door which you keep ignoring. I do not know how you can compare having the biggest army in the world which was created for the sole purpose to threaten you with a terrorist group. Because Israel and Russia are in different levels. For Russia Putin is not a downgrade, for Israel it is. They can do much better. The issue is that they had this government before the attack, there were settlers expansion before the attack. Palestinians were treated like shit before the attack. That treatment is what caused the attack in the first place. It is because of security concerns. USA literally did the same when USSR placed missles in Cuba. This is not about expansion, it is about security concerns. Yes he will not allow NATO at its backdoor. Neither would USA allow it if it is was in Russia s place. It is normal. The oppressor when attacked back gets less sympathy than the oppressed. If Israel was the oppressed here then leftists would care a lot more. It may sound unfair but that is how leftists operate. And yes leftists do call Israel an oppressor. You may disagree, you do you.

@Vrubel "In 2016, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch received several credible allegations of abuse and torture by the regiment.[234] Reports published by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented looting of civilian homes and unlawful detention and torture of civilians between September 2014 and February 2015 "by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov regiment in and around Shyrokyne".[235][236] Another OHCHR report documented an instance of rape and torture, writing: "A man with a mental disability was subject to cruel treatment, rape and other forms of sexual violence by 8 to 10 members of the 'Azov' and the 'Donbas' battalions (both Ukrainian battalions) in August–September 2014. The victim's health subsequently deteriorated and he was hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital."[236] A report from January 2015 stated that a Donetsk Republic supporter was detained and tortured with electricity and waterboarding and struck repeatedly on his genitals, which resulted in his confessing to spying for pro-Russian militants.[236]: 20 ". Actually if you do a bit research they have indeed linked with torture and other messed up stuff so they are quite fucked up as a regiment. Russia s GDP per capita is like 5 times larger than Ukraine before the war started so I think Ukraine is the shithole here Compare that to the most powerful army in the world at your doorstep that can kill everyone in your country if they want to. You cannot compare them. Yes a few hundred people dead will not hurt Israel much. We are talking on a country level here. Comparing Hamas with NATO is like comparing an ant to a dragon. Putin does not decrease the level of democracy of Russia since Russia never had any to begin with. Meanwhile Israel did and their current PM actively tried to undermine it. Therefore relative to the level of democracy in their respective countries Benjamin is worse. Probably same way Israel did. Both bomb without caring about civilians dead. If you think Israel actually cares about the civilians dead in Gaza you are very naive. They cannot even prove that X person here is Hamas, they just go by guessing from an intelligence service that could not spot an attack from miles away. It is not credible. When most of Gaza at this point is razed to the ground you cannot really say that Russia would do much more. If 90% of Gaza was not attacked then you could say "Russia would have razed it to the ground", however Israel also is doing that. I am not saying that there are not decent non racist people in Israel. However their current government which are the ones that actually take decisions are quite racist and radical. I saw clips of deputies calling for "Gaza to be turned into Dresden" among other things. Also I have seen countless videos of people mocking Palestinians or even celebrating at the bombings so they have a lot of people that are radicalized unfortunately. Way way more than countries like France, UK etc. If you find me some proof I will change my position. My bias is civilians getting treated equally and not only getting love if they are from specific countries. No love for Iraq childreen. Endless love for Ukranian and Israeli childreen. Dying by bombs or by a sword is irrelevant.

Ukraine did indeed attack areas in Donetsk which are Russian majority and they had an infamous Azof Brigate which could be compared with Hamas in terms of how brutal they are. However, issue is not Ukraine but NATO having access to Ukranian soil, very close to Russia. Allowing them to place Nuclear Missles very close to Russia. When USA had a similar threat during the Cuban Missle Crisis (Soviets wanted to put nuclear missles in Cuba, close to USA), the USA literally invaded Cuba (Bay of Pigs). Hamas is ruthless but they are not a big threat to Israel, they can never go more than a couple of kilometers into Israel soil. Meanwhile NATO can literally wipe Russia from the face of the earth easily. Hamas is an ant for Israel in comparison. They can never destroy Israel no matter what bullshit slogans they say. Although the attack on 7th of October was horrible, it was barely a scratch on the country as a whole from a survival pov. And that was Hamas at their peak. However it is also highly racist and does not treat everyone the same, having strong elements of an aparthait state. It is indeed democratic for white Jews, which is not everyone there. Also, in what universe do liberal values are absolutely superior to other values? That is a very biased statement. Maybe Russians prefer their own values over Western values? How do you know that? Putin has way more support than most Western leaders. Netanyahu actively tried to undermine democracy and rule of law, so does Putin. However, unlike Russia, Israelis do not like that. So for Israel he is a worse leader. In terms of war crimes both are quite ruthless. The amount of brainwashing Israeli kids go through on hating Arabs and thinking they are chosen is also horrible. Not much different from Russian brainwashing. Since kids they are taught Arabs are evil and our enemy. There is no proof that Russia will continue its conquest into Poland and further West. The most they will invade is Moldova and even that is not confirmed. Russia will never touch NATO, so the West is safe. They do not understand relativism and worthship democracies without realizing that they are horrible and do not work for every country. I do agree democracy is better than dictatorship but there is something that is worse than dictatorship. That is civil war and anarchy, chaos. And that is EXACTLY what underdeveloped countries go through once you topple their dictators. Libya, Iraq being two examples. So for these countries, dictatorship is the highest good at the moment. In the future this will change of course. Everything at its time. I see Iran for example tired of their dictatorship, hopefully it will be removed once their Leader dies.

There was a NCY study that stated that Israel used false evidence regarding that attack. Which is why I say, nothing they say is to be trusted. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html The article. Now maybe it was indeed a Hamas misfire but Israel is fully morally capable of doing such an attack when it killed over 80 on a refugee camp and bombed countless other hospitals and UN schools.

@Vrubel So when the West basically threatens Russia security way more than Hamas could ever threaten Israel by telling Ukraine to join Nato and Russia tries to stop it, that is "horrible". Double standards are immense. Let me rephrase what you said from Russian POV. "You cannot heavily threaten a superpower and expect no response". Yet when Russia responds they get way more hate than Israel does for defending themselves.

I said so because you used to believe their lies about hospital bombings and called them "credible". Happy to see you realized they are not more trusthworthy than countries like Russia.

To all you pro Israelis out there. Quick question I saw in 2014 Israel killed 2000 Palestinians, most civilians and close to 500 kids. Meanwhile their loses were almost minimal, no terrorist attack like on 7th of October. There were rockets launched from Hamas but nobody died from them. Is it humane to kill 2000 people and 500 kids because some rockets were dropped that didnt kill anyone nor do much damage since they did not even hit the ground. Most of the dying was because entire blocks were bombed instead of only specific buildings where rockets were launched from.

Yet you believe a lot of things Israel government says without much proof from them...

The guy is probably worse than Putin. Not calling him out on his bs is really sad. At least Putin has to be ruthless considering he governs a very corrupt country like Russia. Meanwhile this clown actively degrated his country, attacking rule of law and democracy making Israel weaker in many ways. Not to mention his extremely nationalistic and racist positions pushing for Greater Israel. Removing this clown from office is the first step towards peace.

I see a lot of hate towards Biden and USA recently because of the war in Gaza. Even though the death toll is still lower than some other nasty wars enabled by other presidents, this is the first war that is documented so well via Instagram and other social medias. It is the first time people see the horrors of war daily on first hand accounts, without filters, and this triggers their emotional brain a lot more than numbers or political debates do. And therefore, I see comments like "USA has lost all credibility", "Biden is a genocide enabler" etc etc by many people including liberals. Biden is at risk at loosing against Trump even before this but now the Arab American support greatly decreased to the point where he can loose key states. I saw polls with tens of thousands of votes like: "Has West lost their moral high ground" etc with a 97% "Yes" response. On top of that, his support for Israel is illegal since Israel according to the UN is committing war crimes. Supplying them and supporting them without question makes you complicit and therefore guilty. You guys think this was an epic failure from a reputation standpoint on his last year of presidence? I am asking especially you Americans since I am not from there. Personally I live in the EU, and I see that most EU citizens, especially young ones are mad at the EU and support Palestine. And EU is a lot less supportive of Israel than USA is.

A full grown educated experienced adult cannot be radicalized by such things like this. Unless he lost family members or friends in that attack, there is no excuse. Also, those dying are kids. He is talking about kids not adult males that may support Hamas. By that logic every person in Eastern Europe that is old should want all Germans dead since they did 1000000x worse to them than Palestine ever did to Israel. What a monster...

@Nivsch The only countries that fully support Israel are: USA (powerful Jew lobby), UK (they created them so gotta defend the mess they made), Germany (Holocaust guilt), Hungary (Openly racist against Muslims). The rest of the West is being critical in different degrees. Even Macron said it has gone too far.

The two hostages released reported being treated very well by Hamas, what makes you say they are in bad conditions? Hamas is not abusing the hostages in order to defend their image. They are realistically more at risk by being killed by IDF careless cluster bombing of Gaza than by Hamas. I saw part of an old documentary from some years ago where the kids were put in jail for months just for throwing rocks at soldiers. They were put in cages during cold nights and the judges would not even look at them but immedietly find them guilty. It was so bad the UN had to intervene for them to treat them better. Also if you want more recent proof. Stripped, beaten and blindfolded: new research reveals ongoing violence and abuse of Palestinian children detained by Israeli military | Save the Children International. Just google this. For some reason links cannot be sent here.