Karmadhi

Where would you put Israel? The way Palestinians are treated by Israelis is insanely injust. Putting hundreds of kids into cages seems just to you? Or shooting unarmed kids for throwing rocks at you? How is this any better than the way Putin's Russia treats Russians? I would argue they are treated more humanely than Palestinians under Israeli. I would invite you to do some research and see how they have been treated through the decades. There is NOTHING democratic about it. Pure tyranny.

If it does not then why is democracy considered a more evolved and better system than autocracy? What benefits does it have if not everyone is treated equal?

How could you do that? I do not understand.

Ok when you put it in that way then we can agree. You seem the most open of the Israelis, I think if everyone was like you the conflict would have hope of being solved. I have seen countless horrible videos of Israeli childreen in classrooms being brainwashed into thinking Arabs are evil and secularism is bad. Also seen plenty of people celebrating over Isarel destroying Gaza (even before the terrorist attacks) and other stuff like this. Also videos of some settlers saying "it is our right to take whatever we want here because we are the chosen ones". Such people combined with the right wing government there at the moment make things seem difficult to improve towards peace. I do not know though how common people with such views are.

Why have Jews been hated for millenia by most of the world? Maybe also they have a problem with how they act? See how racist your logic is.

A democracy treats everyone equal. Israel does not. Hence it is an oppressive racist regime that is only democratic for Jews. I do not see Sweden or Canada do such things. Arresting people that are anti Israel looks democratic to you? What is democratic to you? Just doing elections? Russia also does that. Does not mean anything. Israel is not at war with West Bank so it is not a war crime. It is human right abuse that has been going on there for decades. Not much different from how countries like China oppress their minorities.

@jaylimix Firstly it is quite sad and unfortunate that leftists that are pro peace got killed like that. But i have a few issues with the video: 1. How would Hamas and whoever did bad things there know that beforehand? Maybe they though they were hardcore Zionists that support Israel brutalizing Palestine, the way many have. Did they have proof that the people they were killed were peace lovers? 2. She is ignoring the fact that the area where she lived was stolen by Israel. Israel pulling out of Gaza is not "a favour". The whole area she lived is stolen land and of course people will be angry about it. I notice Israelis tend to think the land belongs to them and then question why the Palestinians hate them. Until they go back to the 1947 borders do not be suprised that Palestinians will be angry at you. Pulling out of Gaza is not enough. 3. You cannot say 2.2 million people are guilty because of what a few hundred did. It is absurd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015 Apparently Israel crimes continue Taking innocent people hostage is only a crime when Hamas does it, not when Israel does it. @Leo Gura So much for Israel being "democratic".

Israel is not truly democratic though. If it was it would give Palestinians equal rights and UN claims it is not true. So calling it "democracy" is false. "Democracy" only if you are Jew. Fake democracy I never understood that without going in some conspiracy theory territory. They are such a small community, why would they be so powerful?

Unless it comes from intentional organizations like WHO or UN then do not believe it. Israel and USA are not trustworthy sources on this conflict. They have a track record of lies.

I am not taking a position here. Just saying that there exists other perspective on this matter. I am not saying that these things DID NOT happen. However the 40 beheaded babies I think was confirmed to be false. The rest of things like IDF shooting at people at the festival is currently just a theory circulating with some proof attached to it. I am not claiming it is true or not. You Israelis make equally outrageous claims about IDF's "surgical bombing" so no need to get triggered.

I do not want to defend Hamas here, they are messed up. But I have seen more and more proof that many of the people at the festival were killed by Israeli friendly fire and some of the Israeli civilains were killed by the IDF due to them panicking. Also many of the brutality like the 40 beheaded babies turned out to be false. If these claims are true then things were not as bad as it first seemed.

@Leo Gura Can you explain to me why when Russia does similar things it gets 100x more hate from the West? I struggle to understand it. How come Palestine mostly gets support from non first world countries.

Israeli Zionism is one of the most toxic modern political ideologies, the Jewish version of radical Islam. It should be erased if there should ever be peace there. An inherently discriminatory ideology, it uses religion to showcase superiority the same way Nazism used race. Imagine thinking "we deserve to take your house because we are people chosen by God". The toxicity of this ideology is beyond outrageous.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html Interesting article showing that Israel is responsible for Hamas more than people think.

@Leo Gura Thank you for your response

They have shot kids for throwing stones younger than 12 so it is not not surprising. Also more sources https://truthout.org/articles/israel-has-10000-palestinian-prisoners-and-faces-allegations-of-rampant-abuse/ Why not some hardcore leftists? Europe has them. Maybe you need them to balance the extreme right wing that is right now.

I saw that the senate blocked aid to Israel AND Ukraine due to the border issue. Do you think USA should fund Ukraine anymore?

It ended because Western Media and human right organization made a big deal about it and many reports putting pressure on Israel. But also I read a bit about Tzipi and she seems way more reasonable than the minister of justice recently who called palestinians "little snakes". So there is hope for Israel once this toxic racist current government gets replaced by more sensible people like Tzipi. A far left wing government would help Israel a lot regarding Palestine I think. The hippie peace loving type of people. I sent you many sources. And none of them are Arab sources. If you do not accept any of them it shows more about your biases than anything else. You can also do research yourself, i found plenty of other sources which I did not send here. So plenty of information about it. At least the other guy @Nivsch is objective enough to recognize such stuff happened.

I am saying Germany does not put childreen in cages, neither does Norway or Ireland

Sure there is. Same reasons blacks were not allowed to sit next to whites on buses in the past. The reason is racism and dehumanization of Palestinians. It is not rocket science.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html https://www.pjcvt.org/blog/palestinian-kids-dont-belong-in-cages-support-hr-2407/ https://www.savethechildren.net/news/“treated-animals”-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons "First world liberal democracy" my ass...

Considering this is the most posted threat (251 pages and counting) and we have here 5 or so Israelis discussing with dozens of people from different countries that are critical of Israel and almost no consensus shows how hopeless this situation is. Imagine if the people critical of Israel were not third parties like us but Palestinians, the people they actually have to negotiate with.

I never said it is as bad as the Jewish Ghettos during the Holocaust. But it is not how a first world liberal democracy treats people. It is quite old fashioned. This stuff is nothing new in history. It is all textbook stuff. The issue is that in Israel you have a 21st Century country that treats Palestine with old fashioned racist treatment. Of course it is no near as bad as the Jewish Ghettos, but that is a very low bar to set. Also Palestine did not put the Jews in those ghettos. They have less rights. Someone with a Palestinian passport living abroad cannot go to West Bank but a Belgian can. Imagine.. I know because I know people that could not go there because they could not enter Israel because of it. Talk about "equal treatment". Also their economy is way worse of partially because of Israel occupation (among other reasons). Hard to develop while being occupied. I think you tend to ignore that Israel is an occupying force on the region and kicked millions out. Shooting kids to practice your aim and laughing about it is not "alert". So a 7 year old with a stone the size of his small hand can seriously hurt a soldier??? You do realize they lack the strength. I am talking about kids, usually younger than 10 here, not grown adults. And I am not talking about just taking the kids into custody but putting them into a military trial (only country in world that does this), then jailing them for 6 months while they spend the night in a cage on the cold. It is extremally ruthless. I saw a documentary with a British reporter where this thing was happening (putting kids in cages to spend the night on the cold) in the past until human rights organizations forced Israel to stop doing it some years ago. Do you think first world liberal democracies in the west like Germany, Norway or Ireland would do such things? Imagine the outrage of the public. Meanwhile in Israel this was endorsed and nobody cared.

And then why are they so pro Israel biased? What do they gain from Israel? If neoliberals control the media why do they jerk off Israel like this? Israel is not a gigantic economy or anything. Something is fishy here...