Karmadhi

Well you seem to downplay and rationalize away tons of devilry being committed by Israeli government and the IDF command. And it is not just me saying this, even Leo challenged you on it.

What would that be?

But from what I have read from him, he does not seem the type that would support the current Israeli fascist government. Sure he can identify with the country, but certain governments are so toxic, it is a patriotic duty to go against them. Best example I can give is the Germans that tried to kill Hitler in 1944. Ironically if you truly love your country and want the best for it, you will be the first to go against them for taking your country down a bad path. There is fundamental difference between supporting the people of Israel and endorsing the actions of the current Israeli government and military.

@Nivsch Why do you defend Israeli government and the IDF so much? I dont get it. Nobody is saying all Israelis are inherently bad or anything. Does it occur to you that perhaps at the moment Israel is lost and is in a similar position that Germany was under the Nazis? A true German patriot would realize his country has been hijacked by people that are only hurting it and push forward for an improvement. Most Germans were also in denial about Nazi atrocities until years after the war ended. Now Germany is a good country that took a lot of refugees and has done a 180 change. Why not wish the same for Israel? I recommend you to read some of the commentary from Yuval Harari (Author of Sapiens). I learned a lot about Israeli situation from him and he seems to me extremely objective, Yellow type of person, at least when it comes to politics. Personally if I was Israeli I would be out in the streets right now protesting about the country's situation. PS: I am not saying Israel is in such a bad spot as Nazi Germany was, but it is an example most people would understand since it is common historical knowledge.

Issue with this thinking is that it is the same rationale terrorists use. 9/11 had the same logic, "ALL Americans are responsible for Arab mess". Even Hamas, when they killed civilians in October 7th, they probably said "These people live in our land, they are thieves that never did anything against Israel that kills us, they are also responsible and therefore should suffer and die". It creates evil.

@royce Damn, even one of the few redeemable things I thought Israel had could be not true? I know their current fascist party is probably down for discriminatory policies against non Jews but is this historical? I think their current Neo Nazi party government will soon be gone and replaced by a more moderate one. By Neo Nazi I am talking about Ben Gvir, smotricht, bibi etc.

Thats great but I never claimed here Israel treats the Arabs living in Israel poorly. Issue is how they treat West Bank and Gaza. That is where they do genocide and illegal settlements. I am sure in Israel life is good. Although I did read a scary report of Ethiopian Jews being given contraceptives' without their consent which could dictate racism. Also I have been told that many Israelis are very racist by friends of mine that went there. However this is just reports of a few people so cannot take it on face value. To be frank Arabs are also quite racist so it is how that region works. But never saw them give contraceptives, that is too much. Racist attitude is a thing though. The Ethiopian Jew thing is proved though (and firstly denied like always by Israel) Ethiopian women in Israel 'given contraceptive without consent' | Israel | The Guardian

Are these Arab Muslims or Arab Jews? Apparently 8 foreign citizens were killed while performing humanitarian aid work for starving people. Latest IDF war crime

Finally something we can 100% agree on. Now you understand why Hamas is so cruel. 75 years of occupation makes them hate all Israelis because they see them all as Zionist murderers. You have some insight now into the Hamas psyche which is not much different from that of the IDF.

Also Israelis as Leo said call everyone working in Gaza as Hamas. That makes more sense than Israeli propaganda. A surgeon operating on kids is Hamas to IDF.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeasHwFW/ They re making the Nazis seem soft

They seem to be the norm in Gaza unfortunately. I can also say some Hamas people kill civilians too. Not every Hamas is like that etc same logic More reports https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeas6tas/ It seems they switch from targeting Hamas to targeting healthcare staff

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeap2pQv/ Hmmm @Nivsch https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeagwavn/ Tell me, how is this better than what Hamas did?

@Nivsch It was in tik tok. I have it on my phone but I use this on pc. If I find something similar I will send it here no worries.

So every international organization is lying because you know couple of guys? Dont make me laugh I saw a clip on Tik tok of a young guy in Gaza, maximum 14 year old. He had 1 arm and looked like a skeleton. From Al Shifa Hospital. He said he was beaten and abused a lot by the IDF. Regardless of what he says, when you have a 14 year old kid missing an arm starved you know this is some evil shit. Words are not necessary. Also how come you believe baseless Israeli claims some 40 decapitated babies yet ignore Al Jazeera for being biased. Dont you think Israeli is also biased here? And Al Jazeera is not even Palestinian.

There was also footage about Hiroshima but people thought it was ok. You do not need to be a genious to know civilians are suffering when a nuclear bomb explode over their heads. Neither you need Tik Tok footage when you read that a whole city has become a sea of fire and 35.000 people have died. Its just that back then it was considered a necessary evil, now it is just unacceptable.

I expected people on this forum to be above this. It seems they are not. I have seen many videos of Israelis protesting about what is going on in Gaza, also they have human right organizations denouncing the crimes there. So there is no excuse to not speak up against it. It is just that they have been heavily brainwashed with the idea that ALL people in Gaza want to kill all Israelis and hence they are ALL seen as either the enemy or future enemy (the kids). Now some do, but not all. Just like some Israelis want to wipe out all Gazans but not all Israelis. Both sides have some extreme elements and many moderate elements but each side thinks the extreme elements represent the majority when it does not. There also is plenty of footage of Israelis cheering when missles were launched to attack Gaza (before 2023). So this celebration when the other side suffers goes both ways. It is not just the Gazans that celebrate when Israelis get killed. This whole thing gives me Prisoner dilemma vibes where each side thinks the other wants it dead and hence they increase their brutality 100 fold. It also explains why Hamas is so brutal on Israeli civilians. They probably also think Israelis want to erase Palestine. And this current conflict has made it much worse since extreme components of both sides now are celebrating when the other suffers. Both governements are extremely toxic and composed of those hardcore groups that actually want to wipe out the other group. First step is for them to go and be replaced with more moderate ones. I see Hamas is being slowly destroyed but I do not see much hope that the current hardcore fascist Israeli government being replaced with a moderate one. A radical Gaza government with a moderate Israeli governement will likely result in more terrorist attacks and war. A radical Israeli government with a moderate Gaza government will likely result in human right abuses and borderline terroristic behavior from Israel (like shooting the 12 year old child in West Bank for a ballon). Hence BOTH need to go. Regarding IDF i keep seeing horrible stuff, many of the ones operating in Gaza, are basically pure blue and even indulging in Red behavior.

@Leo Gura Why do you people care so much about how liberal a society is? Just because it can be more liberal does not mean it is the best place to live or maximize well being of its people. Soviet Russia, at least under Stalin was far worse to live in than most Russian Tsars. I did not see 20 million Soviets die under any Russian Tsar in 15 years time for example. I think most people would pick a conservative society that allows them to eat well and not go to prison for no reason than some specific liberal values. Under Soviet rule people went to concertation camp like prisons (gulag) for no reason rather than being denounced by someone with 0 proof. Under other Soviet leaders you can make the case that it was better than Tsars. Ironically Nazi Germany was far better to live in as a German than Soviet Russia was as a Soviet. Most of the Nazi atrocities were done to other non German groups outside the borders of Nazi Germany. Meanwhile Stalin mostly killed his own people, including millions of Russians.

On another note, I saw this very interesting video. It is crazy how far we have come when it comes to morality and what is acceptable in war. I can only imagine if the IDF did this in Gaza the outrage would be out of this world. Yet it used to be textbook military practice. Ironically some hardliners in the Israeli government suggested such thing be done to Gaza "Gaza must turn into Dresden". I wonder if they would be willing to do it, if it was not for the international community. But to go even deeper, even what Hamas did on October 7th used to be textbook military practice. Humanity has come a long way...

@Danioover9000 If it is just words I get them but when you see footage with your own eyes I mean... Ironically they expect us to believe all claims about Hamas atrocities even though not everything has actual footage (like 40 decapitated babies) yet they choose to ignore footage in Gaza. Crazy

@Nivsch You can see the footage with your own eyes. Someone with hand tied then shot is a war crime regardless Hamas or not. And I doubt they would be Hamas, Hamas would die fighting. Ironically when Russia did a similar thing in Bucha, everyone lost their shit. Hypocrisy at its finest. My bet is that they assume everyone there is Hamas and they just kill them "to be sure" since Hamas does not have a proper uniform to identify them like other armies do. Ironically Hamas said the same thing for October 7th, "we killed people in the crossfire, it was chaos, etc". So both use similar lies to justify their atrocities.

Those are the only ones that are there at the moment. Israel does not allow others to enter Gaza. You can see the footage with your own eyes. Someone with hand tied then shot is a war crime regardless Hamas or not. And I doubt they would be Hamas, Hamas would die fighting. Ironically when Russia did a similar thing in Bucha, everyone lost their shit. Hypocrisy at its finest.

The journalists and reporters that are there.

What does that have to do with what I said? Having couple hamas guys there and what I wrote are different variables. Did Hamas force them to tie the hands of civilians and shoot them? Did Hamas force them to set civilian houses in fire with people still inside? Did Hamas force them to destroy an entire hospital which is illegal instead of just sending guys there and neutralizing the threat?

Thanks for sharing