Karmadhi

So you are saying we do not really know what is going on there since people cannot go there. Therefore you do not know whether there is genocide or not. It may be or may not.

@Vrubel 1. I am talking about childreen here. 5 year olds. They did not kill anyone, nor hide behind anyone and are too young to even understand what is going on. They also did not elect Hamas. Yet you seem too cold about their deaths while crying about Ukranian kids dying (although 30 times less in scale). You basically went on a rant about how bad Hamas is yet my comment was about childreen, not their parents. 2. Of course Ukranians will be way more chill. They were not raised on a prison neither did they suffer under Russia. Ukraine has been an independent state since 1991 and was treated fairly well under USSR by Russia after Stalin's death (Nikita for example was Ukranian). Most young Ukranians have no reason to hate Russians per say. Meanwhile Gazans have been killed in the thousands in the last 10 years alone (over 2000 in 2014 alone). You seem to fail to understand the significance between your brother being bombed in his house. Considering Gazans have huge families even 1000 civilian deaths (like in 2014) affect tens of thousands of people. I am starting to see Ukranians support bombing of Russian cities and even were happy about the terrorist attacks in Moscow so the hatred is starting to boil up now. However it is still a 2 year war, this is a 75 year old conflict. Hamas is basically the far right wing armed forces of Gaza which due to the conditions has grown a lot. Ukraine due to them living fairly comfortable lives and no real reason to hate Russia hardcore (until 2022) did not have a hardcore right wing military. However, I have read that they had this Azof Brigate composed of right wing fascists which did war crimes in the past. They are mini Hamas in a way but less cruel and smaller. 3. How exactly will Hamas fight in the open field? Unlike Ukraine, Gaza is super super small, they have no air defense nor tanks etc. Ukraine has all the West support, millions of men and tons of empty land for a normal warfare. I dont like tunnel warfare but given Gaza size and density you cannot really fight there "like men" as you say. 4. How do you know how many were cheering on October 7th? How do you know whether those people were aware of Hamas atrocities? You probably just saw some clips on Tik Tok and now say "they are all happy about it". I have also seen countless clips of Israelis cheering on about Gaza being bombed even before this attack so it goes both ways. And considering Israelis are rich boys that never lost anyone from war (given the low number of civilain deaths in general historically) then how do you justify that?

What genocide? Show me some numbers to prove that absurd claim.

13.000 people dead in 1 year compared to 35.000 in Gaza in 6 months. Not to mention that Sudan is way bigger population. If you consider that genocide than Gaza is giga genocide. Do some research before spreading your propaganda here. And intentionally deciding to bomb people with AI when they are home which results in their whole families dying is not "consequence of war", it is mass murder. Everyone involved with it should be shot.

@Vrubel There is definetly a deep dehumanization of Palestinians in Israel. You yourself show it here with your total disregard of 13.000 dead Palestinian childreen while only focusing on 50 Israeli childreen. But ok, perhaps you can say that "my country people's are more important than others", fair. But however you seem to be very disturbed with 600 dead Ukranian childreen and you are not Ukranian. Hence to me it seems that you do not care about Palestinians specifically. I read your comments when the War in Ukraine started and you seemed very SJW like regarding it and even called Leo too cold on Ukranian suffering. Meanwhile when Gazans suffer 100x more you tend to be the one that is too cold about it. Why so?

Yes that is true. However for some reason when it comes specifically to Palestinians they seem to revert to stage blue level of thinking which leads to horrible abuses. In other matters it is definitely orange to green society. Like even secular Jews seem to have a blue attitude towards Palestine often which i find disturbing. I say this because like 80% of them support the horrible crimes in Gaza. Genocide or not, any sensible human would say this has to stop. And for the hostages, but for THOSE people's sakes that are suffering there. For the childreen. "All Gazans support Hamas" tends to be the thinking in Israel at the moment which is as blue as it gets on a frequency. And why are not these addressed? If they been going on for years now. That is what I meant by my comment. I am happy you acknowledge this is a thing, it is very unbiased for you to say this. However, I fear that after the october attacks that attitude has expanded to moderates as well. And as I said in a previous comment it does not matter as much as ur typical soldier attitude as much as the high command people's attitude. Soldiers follow orders. If the high command has the right wing attitude you say, it will result on horrible crimes. But I seen countless videos of IDF soliders boasting about destroying houses, stealing women's clothes, saying "we killed 10 kids today, it was a good day" and other horrible comments. Like dozens of such videos. Then why did the Israeli government aid Hamas when they are the main group that does these attacks. I saw clips of the PM saying he used them as a tool to divide Palestinians. How is this helping Palestinians go towards a more peaceful which will also make Israelis safer? This is just adding fuel to the fire instead of actually solving the issue. Why are not people angry about this back in Israel?

@Nivsch Do you think Israel should go through a major change in policy and education just like Gaza probably will? I feel like they need to abolish Zionism, at least hardcore one and become a secular state and see Palestinians as equal instead of human animals. To me Zionism is the root of all evil when it comes to Israel. I see it as 21st century version of Nazism and is destroying Israel. If you can explain me how is Zionism healthy or helpful would appreciate.

How is Hamas an existential threat to Israel when they just killed 800 civilians, many of whom were killed in crossfire? Since you are talking numbers. Hamas is 1/10 of the IDF size, not to mention lack of equippment.

I meant that other groups that have been subject to genocide do not get the same sympathy like the Armenians. That is all I meant. My apologies if it came off as too aggressive that was not my intention.

What denial? Did I say this is what I think? I am trying to explain to you how people view this so you can understand why people seem not to care as much about the October attack. I never said that "this or that" did not happen except the 40 beheaded babies which is a proved lie. Anything else like rape, beheadings etc I did not say is not true. I explicitly wrote, "even if it is indeed true, people do not believe it for X Y reason". Then I went on to explain them in a simple way. However, I have read countless comments of people saying that they think it is not true. Then I tried to explain to you why that is the case. It would be good for you to be open to understand people instead of just putting the messenger on the same boat.

Its not that we dont care. Its just that the scale of it for a modern war is small. 800 civilians dead happens. I do not see why everyone is making such a big deal out of it. Especially considering some of them were killed in cross fire which again happens in war. Probably the same number of civilians died in the latest Armeania Azerbajan war in 2021 and nobody gave a shit. Only when Jews die people get so outraged. And ironically Armeanians have went through a genocide too, yet nobody gives a shit. To put in perspective 30.000 civilians died in Bosnia, 9000 in Kosovo, 300.000 in Syria etc. 800 is small in comparison. But in itself is quite tragic and if you would ask people I doubt most would not say that it is a bad and sad thing. Israel lying about some of the stuff does not help either. They lied about 40 beheaded babies. That makes people assume that they are lying about other stuff too. Once you are proved as a liar people will think you are lying even if you say the truth. Which is why lying tends to be a bad strategy. Many people claim there was little to no rape, people were not burned alive or beheaded etc. Even if those actually happened. Israeli propaganda shot itself on the foot here. Lastly not showing the footage to the public furthers the disbelief. I saw they only showed some of the harsh footage to certain journalists from Western medias. Since people cannot see the actual massacre footage they will deny most of the atrocities. And I checked Hamas.com but could not find any real footage of torture or rape. No beheadings either. Just people shot. Which happens in war. Israel did tons of it in the past. Everyone does.

Then how come most respectable organizations call it apartheid? Also mostly I refer to west bank here. But apparently Israel proper is also discriminatory towards Jews and non Jews. I am not informed a lot but I read all independent organizations call it such. Especially with the current fascist government. I said that with a new liberal government that could change.

And how did they become blind haters? Israeli behavior turned them. None of the people I know had issues with Jews but they are very critical of Israel and the way they are conducting this war. But cant you see that that is causing Israel to loose tons of support and downright become isolated even from countries which showed it sympathy at first. Killing 7 Western aid workers is the latest development in this course of events. That is because you are a nationalist Israeli. Also, because you are talking about 1 life. I think most would do that. No issue there. However that attitude on a country level leads to devilry which is why international law exists. If a country wants to do genocide and mass murder innocent kids, to save couple hundred of its people then the world should isolate them and basically rip them to shreds until they come to their senses. Issue is that here all this mass murder is just revenge. They could have done the same damage to Hamas command with 1/10 of the death and destruction. Much was just as revenge because in their sick minds they see a 8 year old Palestinian as Hamas or Hamas supporter. I read an article of how they used AI to bomb low end Hamas people at home and kill their whole families with them. So yeah, they deserve to abandoned. Before that attack nobody was talking about a Palestinian state. Now everyone is talking about it. Also this genocide war has made Israel arguably the most hated country in the world and lost tons of support, especially with young people who are the future leaders of the world. Especially with stage green people.

Because what is you said is ridiciolous and it deserves to be laughed at. If Israel lays down their weapons you can make the argument that they will be indeed killed. No disputes there. But Israel has made it clear they want a 1 state solution where Palestinian Arabs will be treated like lesser citizens under a fascist regime. No thanks. Ukranians are fighting for the same reasons. Ironically Russians treat Ukranians in the occupied territory just as bad if not worse than Israel treats Palestinians in West Bank. And that is in case you are not kicked out and your house stolen by some Zionist nut head. Shows you what "peaceful resistance" gets you with Israel. Perhaps one day with a Liberal peaceful government that may indeed work. Until then a state for them is the best and only solution. Living under Israel occupation seems horrible.

The risk of loosing another 50 childreen does not justify killing 15.000. Especially when a good portion are just out of revenge and not to gain anything. No sane person would say that. That is Nazi mindset. Also the attack is Israel fault for their policies through decades. So no complaints there. As Leo says, take responsability.

@Nivsch @Vrubel I love how you guys lowkey blame Gaza overall adult population for the October 7th attack and the war but when Israel does 100x worse back, you just blame the government for it and ignore all the people. Ironically the citizens of Gaza that are being killed are not any less innocent than the citizens of Israel that were killed in October 7th. If you think they are, those are your biases at play. Nothing more.

With Israel atrocities reaching new heights to the point where they are killing foreign citizens (Polish, American, British etc), it is becoming harder for me to understand why they are willing to tolerate this to no end? We have seen countries that are not Western openly go against Israel. Examples would be starting a genocide case against them and cut ties with Israel. Now, I am not saying that Israel should be military attacked by the West, however it should get the Russian treatment based on them breaking all international law. That would entail sanctions, cutting of relations and expulsion of ambassadors. My question is, why is this not happening? How exactly does Israel, such a small country benefit the West so much that it is willing to abandon all its principles to support it without restraint? And this has been going on for decades, not 5 months ago. These days, the West, especially US has pretty good relations with most Middle Eastern countries like Saudi, Egypt and UAE. Israel is just making the West look so bad, loosing tons of support for their values, exposing them not only as hypocrites but downright cowards when their citizens get murdered and they do not do anything about it. Not to mention funding Israel costs. Seem like a huge burden. Is it because of the Holocaust? USA nor UK were not involved (biggest Israel allies). Also, I have not seen any empathy for other groups that also faced equally horrible genocides like the Armenians, the Tutis in Rwanda, or the Slavs during WW2 (especially Belarus loosing over 25 to 33% of its population to Nazis). Is it because Israel is their only ally in the region? Perhaps in the past yes, but these days as I wrote above, they tend to have good relations with other big players there. Is it because of subconscious racism? Western Europe especially is mostly Green now, this should not be the case anymore. They took so many refugees for example. So out of reasons I would like some arguments from you guys. And please, do not start using conspiracy theories to explain it. Stuff like "Jews own all the media, they own the West, Illuminati, Elites". Thank you in advance.

How come Russia which is considered a very immoral army has killed 10 times more Ukranian soldiers than civilians. Ukraine civilian death toll is around 10-15 thousand compared to close to 100.000 soliders. And Russia has also bombed the shit out of Ukraine, yet their bombings kill little civilians in comparison. I am genuinely suprised about this.

How come then the military of Russia, USA, UK, Israel all break international law in different degrees when they fight in wars. I have not seen USA, Russia or UK do man made famines for examples in the recent wars they fought nor kill multiple times more civilians that soldiers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war You can see in all these wars involving Russia, France, UK or USA you had more soldiers killed than civilians. In Gaza it is like 5 times more civilians than soldiers.

What priorities? I am talking about their actions before this war. Like killing peaceful protestors in Gaza some years ago because "We could not put them all in jail". Countless stuff like this, which I do not see happening in any Western country. I did not see UK do anything like this to ireland for example. Why?

If having free elections is all that matters then ok. Personally a country that does not respect fundamental human rights is not Western value based but as you said that is subjective opinion on what is a democracy or not. But from I have seen it is objectively clear that Israel does no near respect human rights compared to Western countries. There is not much up for debate there. At least regarding West Bank.

Not evil but I think Western leaders, especially the older ones have a subconscious tolerance for colonialism and ethnic cleansing since they come from countries that did it historically at a grand scale. All Israel hard allies either were colonialist powerhouses or are built on colonialism itself (USA). How come Ireland for example that was a victim of colonialism itself is such a firm attacker of Israel?

You definitely abandon an ally that is commiting genocide and broken all the norms that you claim to have built your society on. Not to mention totally damaging your reputation and downright murdering your own citizens. Israel is a middle eastern country with a right wing government that is on the edge of fascisms. If the West cared about democracies then it would cut ties with Israel until they got their shit together and elected a liberal democracy that respects human rights and respects international law. Not to mention putting people in jail for social media posts against its narrative or shutting down media they do not like. Fundamentally its support should be based on behavior not on "we are democracy". A democracy that does not respect any international laws is worthless.

His attitude can embolden people to commit atrocities. For example a 12 year old boy throwing a ballon or something was shot by an Israeli soldier. That was clearly unacceptable. Instead of apologizing, Ben Gvir literally congratulated him to the point where it angered even BBC. That gives the message that killing kids is rewarded and gives you an applaud from a key government figure. That can embolden soldiers to act more carelessly knowing they will not face any consequences nor condemnation from their higher ups. The fact that that soldier is not in a military trial for possible child murder (arguably the most unforgivable crime someone can commit) shows how messed up Israeli army and society is. Humans have been conquering and kicking out people since the dawn of time. "These people were here before you" is a dangerous way of thinking which only leads to further conflict. Truth is we do not know for sure who was there 5000 years ago. Many can make an argument that most of current Israelis are White Europeans that should not live in land populated by Brown people. It can also start becoming about race too, not just religion. So this whole thing is a mess. Ironically this is the same logic Putin uses. He says that 1000 years ago Ukraine and Russia were 1 nation and therefore we can make Ukraine part of Russia again. That may be true but it does not justify Russia annexing Ukraine because they were the same people 1000 years ago. They are separate countries now. Israel says that 2000 years ago we used to live here before Palestinians and therefore we should live here and not them. You cannot use that as a reason either to take most of the land there and treat the remaining locals like shit. It is a dangerous mindset which has caused 2 horrible wars. And countless before hand. Balkan is also full of these land driven conflict. Personally it is irrelevant who lived there 2000 years ago. I have no issue with jews having a state in that land but as long as it is done by accomodating the people that already lived there for centuries. The UN partition plan gave Jews like 2/3 of the land while being a minority which is why Arabs probably went to war against them. I have even read that the Palestinians living there used to be Jewish and the European Jews are phonies. But I did not see much proof for it.

Those are fair points. Personally I do not agree with the statement my friend said. Seems quite biased to me. It was to give you guys insights into how people from that region see this conflict. Regarding Bennet I did not comment on whether he is healthy or toxic blue, just that he is stage blue. But his interviews with Piers Morgan and some other journalists make me think he lowkey views all Gazans as responsible and he is ok with them all being killed. To me that is quite toxic blue. Ironically Hamas think the same, all Zionists are responsible for the situation in Palestine. It is toxic thinking which leads to war. Also I read that he made some racist remarks against Arabs which he was attacked on in an interview some years ago. But to be honest I do not know him much. So I will take your word about him. You may call Ben gvir just a nutcase but he is the one making a lot of important decisions about Israel, not Bennet. So if Ben Gvir is a nutcase= Israeli actions will be that of a nutcase. At least on the areas he is responsible for.