Karmadhi

I do not see Russia attacking NATO. Why would they do it? They cannot take on all of NATO, also NATO has nuclear weapons. They attacked Ukraine because Ukraine is far weaker and has no nuclear weapons. Also it is not in NATO and therefore NATO is not obliged to help it. Americans are tired of war and will use Russian lies and propaganda to rationalize it. I think that propaganda is used cleverly by Republicans to earn votes on a war tired general American public. "America first, fuck random countries" gets you votes. Politics is firstly about votes. Trump definitely is somewhat pro Putin because as Leo has said, they operate on the same level on the spiral and maybe they have some shady deals together. However, I cannot say the same about all politicians there. Just like the West is backing up Israel genocide in Gaza that is as bad if not worse than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Countries tolerate illegal stuff when it comes to their economic interests. Iran and China gain from Russia, hence they tolerate their bs. So does the USA for tolerating Israel's atrocities. The West is just as corrupt and fucked up as BRICS when it comes to supporting and tolerating terrorist barbaric countries. Agreed. Like 50 billion worth of military aids seems a lot to me... Not to mention aid from other countries. Countless stuff I have seen shows otherwise. If you have personally been to every Russian city then ok. Economic growth wise both countries were quite similar in the last 20 years. Russian GDP per capita is like 5 times larger. You cannot discount this. Lets see. So far they seem to do fine but who knows.

Not really. They just despise Israel as much as Iran Never heard of Iranian supporters that were not very religious people. Meanwhile countless not religious Palestine supporters.

@Danioover9000 Vrubel seems to have a lowkey racist undetone where he sees Jews as more worthy of a group of people to have land and have their way. This line of thinking is why Zionists have such a bad reputation throughout most of the world. The belief itself is inherently racist.

For sure. I think people had an issue with the distribution. 1947 partition plan had Jews get 60% or something of the land and historically they were like 5% of the population I read. They only started growing in early 1900s when UK started dumping Jews there from Europe. The historical Arab Jews were a minority and when they get 60% of the land, people get pissed about it. I think that is what I found unfair about it personally. No issue with Jews having a state if they lived there historically but I see no reason why the land distribution should have been like that. The Jews from Europe should not have been a factor since they did not live in that land.

@Vrubel I did give lengthy replies to every argument you made with me so i think I respected what you said enough to reply to it. Meanwhile you skip tons of stuff I write. You seem very eager to criticize Palestinians harshly for celebrating murder of civilians but do not say anything about Israelis even when confronted with proper proof. When you told me that Palestinians celebrated I did not ignore it nor deny it. I just said it is not the majority.

I do not either. But the study I sent is from Human rights watch and is far more extensive. It seems the most accurate number. Keep in mind both Ukraine and Russia will not be honest on this. Russia will downgrade while Ukraine will inflate the numbers. They do the same regarding soldiers dead. You do realize if this keeps going on the same pace, there will not be an Ukraine to add in NATO anymore. They did kick them out because Russia was sucking at first and was over extended. They had a small invasion force relative to Ukraine. Of course they will be kicked out. Now their army is growing while Ukraine is shrinking due to Russia having 4x the population. Also take into account that defending is always easier than attacking. Ukraine tried to take land back in 2023 WITH A LOT of NATO equipment yet it failed horribly. Russia managed to create amaizing defenses which stopped Ukraine. Those defenses are still there. Even with the US aid it is doubtful that it will be breached considering a NATO armed Ukraine failed to do it less year. And Ukraine is now weaker (less men) while Russia is stronger. All NATO aid will do is not allow Russia to take further land from Ukraine. Which can be resolved with a peace deal. Worst case it will give Ukraine time to dig in some good defenses and arm itself (assuming Russia wants to go on for another war in a few years). I agree that Russia is very corrupt but no offense, it is still richer than Ukraine. Their GDP per capita is like 4x that of Ukraine. Economic wise I think it is better off. Corruption wise I would say it is pretty similar. Ukraine is also super corrupt (some say the most corrupt country in Europe). Freedom wise I think it is worse than Ukraine. I do not know how democratic Ukraine is but for sure it is more than Russia. Ukraine takes it when it comes to political freedom and freedom of speech. It is deeper than that. American public is tired of war and spending on stuff that is irrelevant to them. Middle Eastern fail wars and the retarded war on terror have heavily depleted the will of the common American to support spendings on stuff that is far away from home. Not to mention the current situation in USA with housing infrastructure etc. The conservatives use this to gain support but the core attitude is already there. To be honest taking care of Ukraine is more of a Europe job than USA job. Ukraine is in Europe, not USA. The EU economy is same size of USA so no reason for them not to aid more. I think they just use it to further their populist agendas feeding on a war tired American public. I doubt they believe that propaganda. Probably Kremlin also funds them like AIPAC funds them when it comes to tolerating Israel bullshit.

That is a nice way of white washing killing 13.000 childreen (mean age being 5 year old according to a norwegian study) and creating a man mad famine that is affecting 2 million innocent people

@Vrubel I sent a clip of Israelis celebrating the murder of a Palestinian child before this war yet you ignore it. Seems you only seem to care when Palestinians celebrate the murder of Israeli civilians. Self biased at its finest.

I am not a pro Russian supporter. I support Ukraine and I think what Russia is doing is wrong. However I do not like the naive idea that "Ukraine will win and take all its land back", especially in this long atriction war so they should try to do a peace deal and cut their looses now. I am looking at this from Ukraine's interest. Russia would loose from a peace deal now because they are on their way on annexing more land. Ukraine would win as it would stop the taking of land. But their overly nationalistic government is pushing for "absolute victory" which is quite toxic in the current situation where they barely have any more aid and running out of men. I find it disturbing that just telling Ukraine to cut their looses makes you "pro russian". Ironically being Pro Russian you should want the war to go on since it will mean Russia will take more land from Ukraine. You need to be pragmatic about things. Futile resistance will only get you killed. Ukraine lived for decades under the USSR without much resistance. They are not new to this thing. Being dead is worse than living under Russia. You sent an article about Gaza. I am talking about Ukraine civilian deaths here. https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says Meanwhile 10 times more soldiers have died. Mauripol has no clear death toll but there was an independent study which I think is the most accurate and it put it at around 8000. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/more-than-8000-killed-during-2022-mariupol-siege-human-rights-watch-2024-02-08/ I am not very informed on that. Maybe you are right. But I did read they did some crimes. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

I mean it is my right to say that I do not like Israel and I want it out of the "civilized world" group of countries. The way they act in Gaza shows their level of development when it comes to war and tactics they use is not higher than Russia. Genocide commiters is not something I want Western countries to ally themselves with.

@Heaven I mean they bombed their embassy totally unprovoked in Syria, which is basically Iranian territory. A clear violation of international law. I do not like Iran to be honest but Israel totally acted like a bully here. So no complaints now. Now they will go cry to daddy USA. Shameless.

Iran has the right to defend itself Should not have bombed illegally their embassy on a soveirgn country unprovoked. They literally asked for it hardcore this time.

When I was hoping that country would be abandoned and boycotted by the world, this happens "He cant keep getting away with it", in Jesse voice.

That was like 90 years ago. Germany did same to Ukraine if not worse. And that was Stalin who was a Georgian dictator. Actually there was a small scale war there for 10 years and Ukraine did bomb civilians on some occasions and did some atrocities here and there via Azof Briagate. It is not just for language. It is just that Russia overhyped this a lot to gain support for the war. Yes definitely ethnic cleansing. However, I noticed it is usually to Ukranian activists rather than normal Ukrainians. If you do not cause trouble to the new Russian management they leave you alone. Proper ethnic cleansing is based on ethnicity, here it seems to be more based on behavior which is less bad (but still bad). Same as Israel and most of the West for funding their bullshit. The West is not better than BRICS when it comes to war crime tolerance when it involves an ally of theirs. Issue I have with Ukraine war is that the civilian death toll seems very low to me relative to the military deaths, population size and time frame of the war. So far I see 11.000 civilians have reported to be dead from the war and it is estimated close to 100.000 soliders. That is a very good ratio actually for war. Especially considering it involves Russia and has been going on for 2 years on a country with a huge population. When this war started I expected honestly the civilian death toll to be at least 100.000 at this point, 10.000 is remarkably low. Hence "genocide" is a ridicioulous term. In comparison in Gaza you have 2 to 3 times the civilian death toll in a country with 20 times less people and 1/4 of the time frame. In Ukraine if you adjust it, the civilian death toll would have been around 400.000. Meanwhile it is 10.000 to 15.000 .

Most are soldiers and more than half are Russian soldiers. In Ukraine you have around 11.000 confirmed civilian deaths and around 100.000 or so soldiers estimated dead. How can it be genocide when 10 times more soldiers have died? That is standard war and it actually a good ratio. In genocides you have far more civilians dying than soldiers.

Point is that Israel gets a lot more leefway for doing similar devilry to Hamas. No country wants to associate themselves with Hamas (except Iran) meanwhile tons of stage green countries are allies of Israel. This is what I meant. If Israel wants to basically mass murder civilians like Hamas did then it should get the same treatment as Hamas. Which would be "We do not want to be associated with you unless you change your ways".

I think it has been proven as a lie, at least the 40 ones. Some BBC reported came up with it or something and it became viral but it was never proved on record.

Iran has the right to defend itself

You can use the same argument for Palestine. Israel barbarity regresses them to what we see Hamas do. How come Hamas is a terrorist organization while the IDF is not even though both seem to be by product of violent attacks. Seems like double standards to me to be honest. And if you actually research the conflict a bit, they always been very stage blue when it comes to dealing with Palestine.

@Vrubel @Nivsch By the say, since you say the people in Gaza are messed up for celebrating October 7th. Look what I encountered https://www.tiktok.com/@hasanalsadi1/video/7357323563847666977 Seems to me exactly like October 7th celebration. These orthodox Jews seems just as barbaric as Hamas here

https://www.tiktok.com/@sy.hus/video/7351026964825672992 I dont know about you guys but this does not seem like an advanced liberal society to me. More like a fascist state that bullies kids because they can. I wonder if most Israelis are like this when they join the IDF. Smacking kids around, very honorable for a soldier to do... And to think this is in the West Bank. Before you go "It is necessary for the security to prevent terrorist attacks blla blla". It is not the fact that the kid got checked. It is the whole manner how he got checked, the treatment he got. Everyone gets checked in the airport for example at the security place but I do not recall people getting smacked around while doing so. It is downright child abuse. That is the issue here.

There is 1 thing I honestly cannot understand here. Israel kills THOUSANDS of Gazans through the years and when Gazans celebrate their suffering in their strike back it is seen as anti christ behavior in your eyes. But when Israel celebrates Gazans suffering, from their own strike back, it is seen as ok. I dont get the logic here. To help you, I wrote a comment from the POV of a October 7th Supporter that I personally know so you can gain insight into how they think if it seems too alien. "I spoke with a friend about why he celebrated on that attack. He is Arab pro Palestine. He celebrated because he said "they finally took their land back, Israeli thiefs fled like cowards and they killed soldiers". When I asked him about civilians dead he said "they did not target them. Muslims dont kill civilians". That is how they see that attack. Whether you agree with that perception or not, another story. If you see it that way of course you would celebrate. Killing soldiers of the enemy and taking land back is a valid course for celebration. In most of their minds that is all that happened. Therefore, the massive celebrations even in Europe and USA. To be honest if they just killed 1200 soliders and no civilians I would not condemn it (but not celebrate because I do not see Israel as my enemy, just devils)". So basically denial. Same as many Israelis about what is going on there. Same mechanics.

The post is proapganda showing old data before 2023. It deserves a lash out. This was addressed to the opener. But yeah, sorry. I will hide it.

I spoke with a friend about why he celebrated on that attack. He is Arab pro Palestine. He celebrated because he said "they finally took their land back, Israeli thiefs fled like cowards and they killed soldiers". When I asked him about civilians dead he said "they did not target them. Muslims dont kill civilians". That is how they see that attack. Whether you agree with that perception or not, another story. If you see it that way of course you would celebrate. Killing soldiers of the enemy and taking land back is a valid course for celebration. In most of their minds that is all that happened. Therefore, the massive celebrations even in Europe and USA. To be honest if they just killed 1200 soliders and no civilians I would not condemn it (but not celebrate because I do not see Israel as my enemy, just devils). But also 800 civilians in a war is normal. It always happens. It is when the death toll gets in the tens of thousands that you can say things are getting bad. Especially for such a small country. If Hamas killed 30.000 Israeli civilians people would be looking at this war differently.

Why dont you try to understand them instead of just virtue signaling? Holomodor was done 80 years ago, things move on. When the Nazis invaded USSR, Holomodor was still fresh and you know what Ukranians did? They openly sided with the Nazis and massacred Russians and even close to 100.000 Poles. They also actively took place in the Holocaust and organized massive polgroms agaisnt Jews. Because it was thought that Holomodor was caused by Jewish Soviets. So when they actually went through real shit they became animals. I am not picking on them per say here. Everyone would become one under the certain conditions. It is just that modern Ukraine is an independent country that did not have any hardships like Gaza did so ofc they will act far more civilized than Hamas. In Gaza most families have people that were killed by Israel. In Ukraine it was not the case until 2022. Crimea did not impact most Ukranians. And Ukraine is poor because firstly it is corrupt as fuck and run by oligarchs. Their politicans suck. They got themselves to blame for their poverty, nobody else. 30 years of independence is enough to get your shit together. Even after 2014 revolution they still remained very corrupt. Still are. Abusing money etc. Obviously. Why should they hate Russia that much (before 2022). I have read countelss comments say that they view this as Russian people war and not just Putin war. They say Russians support the war at large and Russia as a country should pay. And from what I have seen many Russians do support the war indeed so they are not totally wrong here. But they are not more virtous that Palestinians when they actually go through shit. It is human nature. I am not making a case of Ukraine here per say. Just brough it up since only there you seem to have human compassion towards childreen. Any population would have done what Gazans did if they went through similar stuff. It is just that the world is so comfortable (including Ukraine) that that need is never brough up. Study history and see how harsh revolts and uprisings were to understand the human capacity for violence if misstreated enough.