Karmadhi

@Vrubel So why was Israel made on such a barbaric and violate part of the world as you call it. Considering it was the Europeans that treated Jews horribly for millenia, it is their job to give them land. THEIR land. I think if Israel was made somewhere in Europe, this whole bullshit would have been avoided. There were many candidates to make Israel and they choose arguably the part of the world that had treated Jews the softest. This is why I fundamentally find it so unfair. It is not that I am against an Israeli state per say, but I would be much more in favor of it being at the expense of countries that hurt Jews like Germany, Austria, Italy, Hungary etc instead of countries that were relatively nice to Jews. What do you think? Also USA could have been an option but USA was never involved in Jews massacres so that would also feel somewhat unfair imo. Personally if Israel was made in one of the German lands like Bavaria (Hitler's origin), I would probably be much more supportive of Israel. Seems to me like Europe wanted to apologize to Jews for what it did to them but not give them their own land, so they just put them in the Middle East which they controlled at the time. So I feel like they are the victims here, forced to pay for someone else crimes.

So in countries like UAE Qatar Saudi etc it is like that? Not war torn countries please. Those are bad whether you are Jew or not. It is not a function of you being a jew, it is a function of the country being in chaos. It is not safe for Muslims too. I saw this happened in 1948 after the Nakba. I am talking about the period before 1900 when Zionism did not exist. Were there massacres large scale often for hundreds of years against jews? If yes, can you send me some sources. Like polgrom style. Skirmishes can always happen, it happened even within Sunnis. So my fundamental question is, was your life as a Jews much worse than a Muslim in the Middle East before 1900? Sounds to me like a mob boss killing dozens and building a manson there where his family lives in luxury. Sure, life is good for them there. But that good life is built on others blood and oppression of millions that already happens. If 9 million Jews live good lives at the expense of life for 7 million Palestinians being far worse because of it, to me that is not a win. It is super biased. But ok, you made your point. Life for Jews is better in Israel. Thanks for your reponse. To me Zionism seems like a response of European oppression of Jews which was indeed a horrible thing, not of Arab oppression. Basically it feels like Arab Muslims are paying the price of the crimes commited by the Europeans towards Jews for a long time. Which is why if the world wanted to be truly fair, they would have created Israel in Germany and kick out the Germans in that piece of land. Much more fitting. But just my opinion.

Pardon my ignorance but what I have seen there were many jews in the region before Israel and there were little to no skirmishes. They started in late 18th century when Zionism was first invented. Before, for centuries, Jews were treated in Middle East FAR better than anywhere else. They lived side by side for centuries in relative peace and harmony. Now they are hated like hell. How did Zionism exactly benefit the Jew/Arab/Muslim relationship?

So did Israel with their indiscrimiate bombing of Gaza. Israeli government activities are protected by the Israeli people that elect those politicians (Hey they are a democracy) and they died by Palestinian attacks as a result. See how ugly your logic seems when I turn it against you.

It has been wiledely reported that many civilians on October were killed by IDF crossfire. They have this thing called the Hannibal directive which is extremely cynical and cruel. Hannibal Directive - Wikipedia So lets not act like they really give a shit. If they cared they would have done a second permanent ceasefire and freed all the hostages. For Israel destroying Rafah is more important the the hostages. It is comical to think they are invaded Rafah for the hostages, if they cared they would have gotten back all of them and then permanently withdraw from Gaza. By "they" I am referring strictly to the top leadership here, not the common population. To avoid confusions. The average Israeli cares a lot about the hostages. Also considering that many of the firstly released hostages were reported to have lived at houses of random Gazans during their time there, it shows total lack of care to bomb Gaza so harshly. There is no telling whether you are killing some of your hostages when you bomb everything. No wonder Israelis are mad, their government really gives no shit about the hostages.

@Vrubel I do. Also most of the IDF and Israeli need to be hanged for crimes against humanity. No partial justice. I do not hold the IDF more highly than Hamas at this point. It is like comparing Hitler and Stalin to me. Trash vs garbage. I can say the same of you being proud of Israel genocide and mass murder. Then do not expect us to empathize with Israel. Why should we? For some reason you consider the Israeli cause for "self defense" more legitimate than Palestinian cause for end of occupation.

UN I think confirmed them. More trustworthy than Israel.

I would say the amount of hate Hamas got for killing 800 civilians I have not seen anywhere like ever. In most wars far more civilians died and I did not see the outrage and condemnation. In a way 800 Israelis are worth more to Western governments that tens of thousands of other groups. "Biggest massacre of Jews since the holocaust ". I did not see any of this rhetoric when Armenians were massacred by Azeris. Where was the "Biggest massacre of Armenians since the Armenian genocide" let us not globally condemn Azerbajan etc. Hmmmm Perhaps most of Western media and governments have a clear bias towards Isarelis.

Hamas also has a pretty legitimate perspective considering everything. I feel for them even though I do not agree with them nor like them. How come you dont? Since we are expected to understand the pov of mass murderers (Israel) why dont you do the same for Hamas?

@Nivsch The ratios Israel had before this attack. So no civilians allowed to die for low end and 10 for high end. Also no fucking bombing low end Hamas when they are home. I do not get the logic of this rather than just trying to mass murder people. Waiting for someone to be home to bomb them is insane. Yet their AI did this

Basically US when it came to taking out very high profile people was willing to kill 10 civilians at most. That was their threashhold. Meanwhile Israel was willing to kill 20 civilians for low profile and up to 100 for high profile. 10 times more than the US. That is what I meant. So by this I mean bombings.

US had a ratio of 1 to 10 at worst. So IDF is 10 times more careless

So a convoy that was coordinated with the IDF and was hit not 1 but 3 times is an accident. I cannot believe you are so naive. Again, trusting proven liars is a red flag. You should put everything they say through very heavy doubt and only trust it when biased objective sources say otherwise. In this case it is Interntional organizations. Hahahahahhahahaha Sure, but at what cost?

English is not my native language but bombing someone 3 times seems like murder to me. You can say intentionally killing sure. I am open to correct the term. Saying that is a mistake is as delusional as the Arabs saying Hamas did not target civilians. You can clearly see both sides denial when you have no skin in the game.

To be honest that is how Russia always fights. They did similar stuff to Syria and Chechnya. I was just expecting them to go softer on Ukraine since most in the East are Russians. From a European pov you speak facts. But Europe is not the world. I am talking from a global POV. As an European Russia is definitely a threat. I wish they would become friends but both the US and Russia have massive toxic egos which do not allow it. I read that Russia applied to go in NATO in the 2000s or something and it was not done. Accepting them would have made them friends which could have even helped against a growing China. Turning Russia down was a massive mistake. I do not think he wants more land, he wants INFLUENCE. This war in my opinion is because he was forced due to Ukraine slipping out of Russia's influence. Why is Belarus not being invaded? Why was Georgia briefly attacked in 2008 and once the government changed, they have not been invaded again. Invasion is a way to force influence when negotiations fail. I fear though that Moldova will be next since they are small, not in NATO and they want to join the EU. What?? I was the one saying Russia will NOT invade Poland because they cannot take on NATO and then you said "even with NATO they can take all baltics etc". Now you tell me, that I underestimate Europe? I never claimed Russia can take on Europe.

Ironic considering Israel has been caught lying countless times and is one of the least credible countries out there among rich ones. Standing against lies is fine, then you should criticize Israel lying through their teeth 24/7. Starting from them murdering 7 Western aid workers that were giving food to starving kids and then shamelessly saying it was an accident although it is proved they were hit 3 times. If you stand with Truth, you stand against Israel's bullshit. So you do not stand with truth. If it was just me saying this, then you can make the case that I am biased and a hater. But when Leo, alongisde every non Israeli on this forum has called that out, then it speaks a lot. It is time you reflect.

1. Belgium, especially Brussels is very welcoming. Considering Belgium is a bi lingular country, there is some division within the locals that tends to aid you as a foreigner since everyone is a foreigner in a way. 2. Netherlands for the most part has very open people and everyone speaks English. Also very little pride regarding language, unlike places like France. 3. USA. I mean, the whole country was build by immigrants so. Not much to explain here. Note that this is in terms of easy to integrate and stuff. NOT the immigration LAWS. If we talk pure LAWS, then Germany is by far the easiest to go to in Europe at the moment. But it is not as welcoming people wise as the three countries I wrote.

American politics was a lot more ruthless and selfish in the past to be honest. They basically installed dictatorships all over Latin America. Carpet bombed with Napalm many countries in South East Asia killing literally over a million civilians and much more. If this USA is fascist in 2014 I do not know what you would call USA of the 1960s, 1970s. The only somewhat fascist thing in the USA would be the MAGA group. Even they are partly because at least they are not really warmongerers. Rest are just selfish and opportunistic, classic Orange. Fascism is blue and red. At least classical fascism.

Thanks for your response but I was asking actually @BlueOak. My apologies for the confusion. I know that you Leo are half Ukranian and Russian and American from your previous posts

Knowing Russia it was to be expected but considering it is mostly ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine where there is war, it is baffling to me. I would have expected them to treat them as brothers. Russia lost a ton of points in my eyes with this. I do not get why they do it, it just makes Ukranians fight harder. Stupid both strategically and also morally.

Putin has challenged the monopoly that the West had. When a monopoly becomes an oligopoly than of course things will be roughed up to some extent. I cannot say whether a monopoly of the West is better off for the world but looking at the Middle East and how the West destroyed it (firstly with colonialism, then a criminal split of the land and later with countless invasions) to me I cannot call them a force of good in the world. Maybe for Europe, but not globally. And to be fair threats, blackmail, espionage etc is done by everyone. It is not a Russian thing. Why so? I have read that he said that cannot be done back. "It was a shame USSR fell but wanting it to be became is crazy". They just take the first part and create a false narrative. Putin does not want USSR. He wants to be a second US. An oligopoly not a monopoly. It is not about land. It is about power and influence. Ukraine is getting invaded because they choose the West. Interesting how there was no invasion until 2013 when they had a pro Russian government. It saddest me to say it but if that government had stayed, this would have all been avoided. If you are next to Russia, you are forced to be its bitch. If you are next to the US, you are forced to be its bitch too. That is how the world works. Sochi for example.

Fair points but you seem to be more chill with Arabs dying than other groups like Ukranians dying. And that is a dangerous mindset. Liking a culture more is fine but caring more when kids from a specific culture suffers shows insane bias. That is what I meant. I will tolerate you caring more when Jews die since they are your people and therefore you will prioritize them. Everyone will prioritize their people. I cannot hold you to such an insane standard not to. But when you start caring more about X group than Y group when neither are your people, that is when things get disturbing. And I have met plenty of Arabs and they are some of the kindest warmest and most chill people ever. Just like Iranians are. Their cultures are super super similar. But that is my personal pov, you can disagree ofc.

To see a genocide happening in real life and people even that follow Leo's work to be ok with it shows you how bad Israel society is. I cannot imagine what ur average right wing person must think. I have seen some Israelis call out the war and genocide so it is not like there is nobody that has that view but it is such a minority it is scary.

A Palestinian state recognized on the 1968 borders and kicking out all settlers would be a good start.

@BlueOak Just calling half the US fascist is oversimplified to me. Leo's explanation is quite accurate but I would elaborate a bit deeper on it. It is not just the Iraq war. It is basically most if not all wars in the middle east for decades. Libya, Syria, Afghanistan too. Americans are tired of war and when they read 2 trillion dollar bill of "War on terror" that barely did much they say "Fuck this, let us go now on our own path". Just happens that Ukraine is on the unlucky moment to be on the receiving end of it. Its not personal against Ukraine. But the reports of Ukranian corruption with the money (whether true or not) have also hurt the American desire for more funding. Go online and read comments. "America first". "60 billion dollars there meanwhile my health care is super expensive" etc etc. These are not really fascists comments. They just prioritize themselves over countries far away. You can call it isolationist or selfish but not fascist. You need to understand that those MAGA hardcore people which may indeed have fascist tendencies do not represent the average American which you call fascist. The average American which you call fascist thinks the way I wrote above. Also of course they do not think deeply about consequences. And if I may ask are you Ukranian?