Karmadhi

They say that is was a terrorist attack, that Hamas are terrorists and that it was wrong. I dont know what more you want them to say. You can have a brutal immoral terrorist attack done by terrorists that has been fundamentally caused by oppression and bad policies of the other party Those two truths can be at the same time That is what leftists say I do not see romantization or glorification of Hamas from leftists which would indeed be shameful.

Leftists describe things as they should be, not as they function You say here how power works, leftists yell about how justice works It is not that they are naive about how things work, they just want things to be better You are pragmatic and grounded in brutal reality, they are idealistic and grounded in the fight for a better world That is the core difference

Perhaps but leftists are still more honest about the causes of the war than most pro Israelis that seem to think this all started on October 7th, ignoring decades of abuse and oppression which fundamentally caused it. Leftists dont condone Hamas actions, but they call them the sad consequences of oppression and bad policy by Israel. Compare this with pro Israelis that just say "unproved attack out of the blue" That is a fair point, but still they seem to me closer to truth than pro Israelis, although not 100% perfect As far as I know leftists support the two state solution which is I think the most reasonable solution to this problem They do not say "lets destroy Israel" or anything like that And many reputable scholars and international organizations have said that there is genocide or genocidal intend at Gaza so screaming genocide is not some unreasonable totally detached from reality claim that they say. I do agree sometimes they way of communication and loud noise can be seen as annoying but the substance is what matters not the communication style

Dont you think leftists have the correct attitude here, wanting for their governments to hold child killers into account and cut ties with entities that engage in ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity? I have criticisms of leftists when it comes to certains topics, but on this issue they are spot on 100% aligned with what is right. These are the same leftists, often students, that put an end to the horrible Vietnam war and protests against the Iraqi war.

I do not celebrate when Israeli civilians get killed (I condemn october attacks), nor do I dream about going to Israel and killing people nor do I want Israel to be wiped out the map and all its citizens thrown into the sea. All things Israelis want about Gazans. I just want a two state solution, Israeli officials and military people to go to jail and the majority of Israelis to get re-educated and remove their hatred Please stop spewing ridicioulous lies about me

If you think the lives of 20 of your own people are more worthy than 2 million civilians including 1 million kids, it shows how morally rotten the society truly is

You give them too much credit, that society is brainwashed into hating Palestinians It is similar to Germans during WW2 which were pretty advanced but had a genocidal attitude towards Jews I have seen endless videos of Israeli civilians openly say they want to wipe out Gazans and that they get joy when they see Gaza bombed Also I have spoken personally with dozens and dozens of Israelis and what they say is truly disturbing. Hardcore toxic Stage Blue stuff. Will make a thread about it soon If not proper genocide, the majority supports them being ethnically cleansed Dont look at Israelis at this forum, they are outliers since they follow your work The issue is the dehumanization they have towards Palestinians which is one of the worst in the world when it comes to dehumanization

Yes they would have They would not tolerate 100 civilians dying to get 1 commander, they would not tolerate 20 civilians killed to get 1 regular soldier, they would not wait for soldiers to go home before bombing them, they would not impose a blockade and create a man made famine, they would not snipe childreen in the head, they would not stop the flow of medicine from entering, they would not carpet bomb, they would not shoot at hungry people lining for aid https://www.timesofisrael.com/outrage-as-opposition-party-leader-golan-says-israel-killing-babies-as-a-hobby-in-gaza/ You honestly think they would do this? Come on man...

If Hamas is so barbaric and underdeveloped how come their method of killing people is shooting them in the face, instead of more medival methods like beheadings, burning people alive or cutting of limbs? ISIS used to do those Imperial Japan too Shooting people in the face in mass is the most common and default way of killing in war When the October attack happened there were many cases of seemingly actually barbaric behavior that were later disproven "Yossi Landau, regional head of the relief organisation ZAKA, stated to Sky News that around 80% of the bodies at Be'eri and Kfar Aza showed signs of torture, and that he found "two piles of ten children each were tied to the back, burnt to death" at Be'eri.[63] Haaretz later found the claim regarding the tied children was erroneous, because the list of the dead at Be'eri only includes 9 children, and there are no cases known from Be'eri or any of the surrounding communities of children from several families having been murdered together" "One highly publicized testimony, asserting that a pregnant woman had had her womb cut open and her fetus stabbed, was later shown to have been untrue; the kibbutz released a statement saying that "the story of the pregnant woman reported by Zaka is not relevant to Be'eri."[24] Another case concerned teenage sisters murdered by Hamas and allegedly raped before being killed; a video taken by an Israeli soldier subsequently came to light contradicting an Israeli military paramedic's public testimony of what he found at the scene." If these things would have actually happened, then I would agree that Hamas is barbaric Maybe you think they happened since they were not long ago disproved and base your judgement of Hamas on this? This is how a barbaric army acts, not just shooting people in the face, which happens by every army in every war ever in 21st century

@Raze I am geniounly baffled on what a low moral development tons of people have in Israel I have discussed with dozens of them on Tik Tok lives. I will make a thread about this but it has made me loose all faith in that country They re not much better than Nazis when it comes to dehuminizing another group and genocidal intent The things I have heard them say make my skin crawl Even if Israelis had some decency before October 7th, now they no longer do. You do not need to nuke a place to genocide it.

I feel like Leo thinks the average Israeli is like Nivsch meanwhile they are probably more similar to Smotrich or Netanyahu Meanwhile he thinks the average Palestinian and especially Gazan is a Hamas supporter Who you consider as the "average citizen" of a place dictates how you see the moral development of that society

I would agree with almost all of them I am partial into putting Russia as more brutal than Israel To me they seem similar Although I wonder how Russia would actually react if a weaker country did an October 7th attack on its territory On side I would assume they would go on a worse rampage than Israel but on the other side they suffered a horrible terrorist attack on Moscow and they basically did nothing afterwards. No "revenge". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocus_City_Hall_attack From what I have researched I seen in Chechenya they were insanely brutal, arguably as bad if not worse than Israel is in Gaza So based on that I would agree with you A friend of mine told me something very interesting He said a big reason why so many people die from Israeli strikes on Gaza, is that when they bomb a building, they target its foundations, causing the building to collapse. Most deaths come from the building collapsing which targets everyone instead of only those affected by the blast. It is the same reason why earthquakes have usually very high death tolls. If you see footage of Israeli bombing buildings in Gaza, especially early in the war, you can see a small strike towards the first floor with the entire 10 story building collapsing. That is why most buildings in Gaza are totally razed to the ground instead of a building with holes or markings from blasts But I am unsure about this assessment, so please do not attack me if you disagree The general sentiment in the city where I live is that Israel is conducting a genocidal war/ethnic cleansing meanwhile Russia is conducting a conventional war of aggression and land theft in Ukraine with some war crimes here and there. That is the sentiment, whether it is accurate or not is another matter. "In Gaza i see so many dead kids and so much human suffering, meanwhile in Ukraine I only saw destroyed buildings and dead soldiers, so Ukraine is not as bad as Gaza". I heard this many times from people I know Which is why you do not see as many protests about Ukraine as about Gaza and not as much global outrage and the word "genocide" being thrown left and right. Here you can see what I explained above It is a very specific way of targeting a building aiming to maximize destruction and casualities

That is my whole point Israel is in another degree of brutality

How exactly does punishing a civilian population in such an inhumane way help you in becoming more secure? It just increases their hatred towards you and rightfully so. People that would not have joined Hamas or any other group will do so after half their family has been killed. Not to mention all the heat Jewish people around the world are getting due to Israeli actions It only makes sense if you ethnically cleanse the population after In that case it may work, yes But to doing it is another level of low human development Morally developed nations do not do ethnic cleansing Instead they look for proper solutions that do not involve such barbarism The whole reason Israel is hated so much in the region is because they never accepted the real solution which is to recognize Palestinian statehood and end the occupation. They prefer ethnic cleansing. It may work, who knows. But that is Stalin level logic Just the fact that Israel has to do ethnic cleansing instead of a two state solution or a prceise and targeted war shows how under developed they truly are "Death solves all problems, no man, no problem."

@Leo Gura The thing is that USA did not kill themselves 100-500k Iraqis Most of the deaths came from the instability that came due to Sadam being overthrown In Gaza we have up to 70.000 people being killed by Israel, 70-80% of them being civilians There is a big difference between people being killed explicitally by an invading army in sensless attacks compared to dying as a result of a chain reaction caused by bad planning. USA thought Iraqi would become an ally and a democracy, they did not oversee the chaos that erupted later. And that chaos lead to most deaths It is like me shooting 10 people in the head deliberatily versus me clicking a button with the aim to kill 1 and then 50 others die which i did not even intend nor foresee Totally different moral situations Also, USA did not invade Iraq with the desire to do ethnic cleansing or to make Iraq unlivable They did not impose a total blockage, starving civilians and not allow anesthisa to reach hospitals What Israel is doing is a totally different level of evil I wonder how mentally deranged someone can be not to allow anesthisia to enter a besiged territory knowing full went hundreds of kids every day have to amputate limbs or deal with burns You admit Israel is doing ethnic cleansing. Well ethnic cleansing is one of the most barbaric things a country can do, second only to downright genocide. It does not happen frequently unlike rape, shootings of civilians or bombing apartments which happen in every war. It is something else. Most wars do not have ethnic cleansing. Lastly, I honestly am not writting here to say Hamas is better or worse or as bad as other entities. They are definetly way worse for their citizens than Israel is for their own citizens. 100% agreement here. Maybe they are 100% genocidal as well. Probably are. I am not as informed about Hamas to be honest. The point I am trying to make is that Israel is atrocious I only mentioned Hamas because they are always compared here with Israel which I think is a red hairing

To be honest I hear that sometimes but I have not seen USA do anything near this inhumane as a response to 9/11 And I am super critical of the USA in general when it comes to these things. The issue is not invading an entity is HOW you do it For example here we can see the civilian casualties are what Israel kills in 3 days in Gaza, and this is USA after just being attacked They show more restraint Even Iraq and Afghanistan together had less than 10.000 civilian deaths together if we only count the invasion losses In Gaza it is 50.000 at this point Not to count USA did not create a man made famine, nor destroy all means of life If you follow the war on Gaza it is clear as day that Israel goal is to make Gaza unlivable, cause as much suffering as possible so people will leave the land and not come back And I do not recall USA doing textbook ethnic cleansing The fact that Israeli leaders have arrest warrants for crimes against humanity shows you how low they have sunk as a state I really doubt countries like UK, France, Belgium or even USA (which has a precendent) would react like Israel did They had a de facto apartheid system before and commited countless massacres October 7th just sent them into extermination mode from war crime mode They were never even a remotly "moral army" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War This 2014 situation alone I think gave Gazans enough hate fuel to carry out October 7th which still killed 3 times less civilians than the 2014 Israeli bombings in Gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan

Also Hamas did revenge after years of Israeli brutal occupation and domination Yes, in war it happens that an invading army goes to a town and kills everyone they can find It happens in war An example of America doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre What happened in October was no question horrible but it also tends to happen in every war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre Another example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre (this one was backed by Israel by the way) Going into a town and shooting everyone there and even raping some of the inhabitants is unfortunately still a very common practice even these days. It has basically happened in every war. Bosnian war, Kosovo war, Syrian war, Chechen war, Ukraine war, Vietnam war, Korean war, Iraq war, Algerian war etc. All of these wars have well documented cases of such events. Which would implicate the Serbian Army, USA Army, Russian Army, French Army, Syrian Army, Korean Army, North Vietnamese Army etc etc I dont get why Hamas gets singled out about that like they did something totally unique. At first there were certain things that indeed made it seem specifically brutal like babies in ovens, babies beheaded, kids tied to chains and burned alive etc (I found it on wikipedia articles) but they were all disproven. Or is your argument that Hamas would do that until the end of time instead of specific incidents like the ones i wrote above were? Meaning it would be "1 out of 100000000" for them. And its not "sometimes", its every day at this point for the IDF. You are basically describing pre October 7 Israel pretty well, Israel at the moment is a totally different beast

Keep in mind Israel is far stronger than Hamas and does not need to nuke them to dominate them. If Hamas was on par with Israel and posed a serious existencial threat like Israel poses to Gaza I doubt Israel would not use their nuclear weapons It is easy to show some restraint when you can dominate another army with conventional ways Which is why Russia has not yet nuked Ukraine for example but was considering it when Ukraine seemed to gain momentum in late 2022 Also since you say Israel does not target civilians and does not blow up airports They blow up hospitals, refugee cams and schools full of civilian and kids Either you are in denial or not fully informed of the number of massacres and atrocities they have commited which make October 7th look like Disney land. Israel war on Gaza has killed more civilians than all terrorist attacks in the world put together. May I remind you of the pager attacks on Lebanon which you called "terrorism" on this forum? Or did you forget about that? That one was not even that deadly in terms of civilian casualities yet you called it terrorism. Blowing up a refugee camp and killing 100 civilians with 1 strike is not any better than hijacking a plane and blowing it up And Israel has been doing that almost daily now Oh yes, also shooting at civilians lined up for aid So yeah, maybe Israel is not suicidal like Hamas but they are still the most inhumane proper well funded military in the world if we avoid pseudo militaries like Hamas, ISIS etc Saying "Hams is worse" is a pretty low bar to hold to be honest Its like saying "They re not as bad as Nazis" Even Russia is not as inhumane at this point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_October_2023_Jabalia_refugee_camp_airstrike

Again Leo that is not the point of the thread. I dont know why you always go back into how bad Hamas is Point is that Israel also does not clear the moral development threashold of a "moral country" worthy of support, alliance and praise That is the point Just because Hamas is worse does not mean that Israel clears the threashold of a country worth supporting This is not a zero sum game, you can condemn both, sanction both and cut ties with both. Just because you sanction Israel does not mean you support Hamas. That is Israel bullshit propaganda that calls anyone that go against them as aider of Hamas. And unlike certain countries Israel does not have key natural resources so they can cut ties with them without much issue. It is not like Russia, Iran or Saudi where cutting ties has serious issues due to them having tons of necessary natural resources and therefore you need to be careful about how you deal with them. Why has not Germany, France, UK and USA cut ties with Israel for them doing ethnic cleansing is the point And also Israel at this point is going beyond ethnic cleansing to genocide territories with their blocade of aid. Serious discussions are going on about it. When Serbia tried to do something similar in Kosovo during the Kosovo war NATO intervened and bombed the hell out of Serbia for them to stop. "NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region. Yugoslavia's actions had already provoked condemnation by international organisations and agencies such as the UN, NATO, and various INGOs.[31][32] Yugoslavia's refusal to sign the Rambouillet Accords was initially offered as justification for NATO's use of force.[33] Because Russia and China could use their veto within the Security Council to not authorize an external intervention,[34] NATO launched its campaign without the UN's approval, stating that it was inter alia a humanitarian intervention.[35] The UN Charter prohibits the use of force except in the case of a decision by the Security Council under Article 42, under Article 51 or under Article 53.[36] Three days after the commencement of hostilities, on 26 March 1999, the Security Council rejected the demand of Russia, Belarus and India for the cessation of the use of force against Yugoslavia.[37]" See the contrast Here they do not even sanction, not even talking about bombing. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/ https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza

By the West i mean the European Union (especially France and Germany which are the two most important actors in it), UK and USA The only big country government that has openly tried to take concrete actions is Spain and Ireland (they are smaller country but still) Rest are either indifferent or downright support it But doesnt USA get targeted by terrorists BECAUSE it supports Israel so much? If USA cut ties with Israel they would not even need to share intel because USA would stop being targeted so much by terrorists. Or is it too late for that?

Because the West calls Israel a moral army and country, supports it yet Israel does ethnic cleansing A developed moral country and army does not resort to such tactics The West says they respect international law and human rights yet they reward a country that does one of the most disgusting crimes that exists That is the problem Until the West sanctions and cuts ties with Israel, the point of the thread remains Why is it so hard to cut ties with a country that is doing such horrible crimes? What am i missing? This thread is not about Hamas, it is about Western support for Israel despite its horrible actions.

The whole point of the thread Leo is that the West sees Israel as a moral entity not engaged in ethnic cleansing but simply defending themselves. By what you write here you basically say Zionists want to do ethnic cleansing yet the West calls Israel a moral country, supports it and arms it. That is why we say humanity has failed in Gaza Because they are on the side of a bully. If Hamas is also awful, fine, then dont help either. Why is Hamas declared a terrorist organiztion and the IDF is not? If both sides want to do ethnic cleansing as you say Hamas is not supported yet Israel is. Where are the sanctions for Israel? Where is the cutting of relations with Israel? As far as i know ethnic cleansing is illegal and looked down upon as a wrong act in the side of 99% of the population in the West.

The sad truth is that Russia is an adversary to the West and Israel is an ally Therefore when Russia does something bad it will magnified a lot and when Israel does something bad it will be diminished That is how biases work The West has an insane pro Israel anti Russian bias due to historical alliances and economic interests

So you finally agree to both sides being equally horrible Before you made it clear that Hamas was worse

Sad how low Israeli politicans have fallen They dont even seem like a democracy anymore Say one thing against the narrative and you get forcefully kicked out