Karmadhi

Not true. There are corruption index for this. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe for sure, but Europe is a high standard. 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index: Explore the… - Transparency.org According to this Ukraine rains 104th in the world out of 180 countries. So it is unfair to call it one of the most corrupt. But it definitely is corrupt. And for European standards it is super corrupt. I think their undemocratic decision to not have elections and keep Zelensky as a de factor leader is much more problematic than the corruption.

Scope dude. Please. Scope. When Israelis killed a similar amount of people in the past as civilians dying on october nobody said much either. If Hamas had killed 15.000 kids and 40.000 civilians then people would be reacting differently. Also the footage makes a big difference. The footage from October 7th is being disclosed and shown only to some journalists, compared to the footage from Gaza which everyone can see.

Alright fair points. I have seen on news that Bibi tried to sabotage the Oslo accords and there was some stuff going on behind the scenes but to be honest I am not informed enough. If the people I wrote above would be Palestinian leaders, I think this issue would be solved (assuming Israel has good leadership too). We non Israelis are presented this view that Hamas runs Gaza and they are bad and PLO runs West Bank and they are pro peace victims that are getting oppressed by Ben Gvir and company. This is the image portrayed. Just to let you know how people see it.

PLO is ok no? I seen some interviews with them and they seem not less reasonable than your centralist Israeli. Husan Zomlot, Mustafa Bourgouti, Majed Bayma etc. They seem fine to me. If they are not PLO my mistake. These guys seem fine to me I mean.

Leo has said it best. You guys want land more than you want peace. Recognize Palestine alongisde the 1967 borders and destroy and kick out all the settlers and you this will end. Your soverign Jewish state is alongisde 1967 borders, everything else is illegal stolen land. How hard is that to do? Otherwise, do not cry when you get suicide bombers and Hamas attacks. You are asking for that, so no complaints. They will not stop until you do what I wrote above. By you I mean Israel at large, not you personally.

Do you consider yourself right left or central wing?

I didnt see anyone on the forum say that. Unless I missed something. It does circulate online this theory but I did not see it being seriously mentioned here. But you can fill me in if i am mistaken. To be honest man, I tend to see people in positive ways but some of the stuff you write here is downright genocidal. I find it very disturbing. Advocating ethnic cleansing for example is below the standard of this forum. So is quoting religious books to justify something. Or equating the finger nail of 1 person with the lives of hundreds of thousands of children just because that finger nail belongs to someone who is "your people". It is purely Stage Blue level of thinking and I expect higher standards from this forum.

If Israel did the 1 state solution and basically annexed the West Bank (it currently occupies it, just like Russia occupies Eastern Ukraine), would Palestinians living there have voting rights? It is ironic that Russia, as bad as it is, still gives Russian passports and all to Ukranians it illegaly occupies and Israel does not. Democracy? How? Democracy is that everyone within greater Israel has same voting rights and is entitled to an Israeli passport. If I am missing something let me know.

They fear getting charged by the ICC. Now they are slowly trying to distance themselves

@Danioover9000 It is just for fun at this point. Nobody will change their mind if they did not change it yet. Neither we, or them. For me it is interesting because I have 0 friends that side with Israel and therefore it was the chance to learn from their pov. And we had very varied Israelis here, from least to most hardcore. The best playground to test Leo bias videos (including ours). We are also biased. By we, I mean pro Palestinians.

@Raze The amount of war crimes they do at this point does not even shock me anymore. I dont know what else is left for them to do. Every evil known to the human mind has been done at this point there. 100x worse than Hamas attacks Israeli politician quotes Hitler, talks of wiping out Gaza | Al Jazeera Newsfeed (youtube.com) The face of modern Israel, i honestly do not understand how a Jew think about quoting Hitler out of all people. Seems like 4 Israeli ministers are Neo Nazi in their attitude (agriculture and heritiage minister on top of the common 2 which are well known to be like that).

Also Maldives kicked them out and dont allow them to come anymore. I would not be suprised if Non American/European countries basically boycott Israel in many ways, if they continue with their bs.

It does matter a lot because it makes Hamas has a certain image which may or not be true. Saying "A group of people went in a village and shot everyone they found and raped some" is a classical textbook military practice which still happens today. It is unfortunately still common in war. Russians did it in Bucha, US did it in Vietnam. Etc. Saying "A group of people went into a village, beheaded babies, put babies in ovens, tied childreen and burned them alive, cut bellies of preagant women etc", is no longer a classical textbook military practice. It happens in very specific places around the world but humanity at large has evolved past this. It paints the group as a bunch of barbaric medieval people. It creates much stronger emotions. Leo has said it well "It is not just how many you kill, but also how you kill that counts". 1 clip of a beheaded Palestinian baby killed in Rafah caused an insane outrage, much more than literally hundreds of children's that have been shot dead by Israeli snipers. It creates powerful emotions. What happened that day is indeed horrific, no deny there. But the way you portray the people responsible is important because it will then justify doing horrible things back. If the emotional outrage that causes that justification is built based on lies, it makes the whole ordeal much more manipulative and untruthful.

@Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 The difference between you 2 is that Nivsch tends to be more central in his views regarding this issue while Gennadiy is more radical. Nivsch calls people like Ben Gvir too radical and extreme. Also most importantly, he is in favour of two state and does not use Torah and bible stuff to justify anything. And he seems to have some compassion for the suffering of Palestinians and does admit the government goes too far sometimes. So yeah. @Vrubel Is somewhere between Nivsch and Gennadiy. More harsh than Nivsch but less radical than Gennadiy. He is pro two state and recognizes that the land is also partially Palestinian. But when it comes to the Israeli Gaza response, I have not seen him say that they went too far ever. My assessment of you guys. Thank you for being here and posting about this, it gives interesting insight of Israelis and how they differ towards this issues.

Maybe in the past. Now they want land more than peace. The West Bank illegal expansion is the proof. They could easy have some UN presence or international presence to ensure that will not happen. And worse case it happens, Israel will be way more justified to invade them and kick them out of power. Just like US invaded Iraq and took out their dictator. And why should Israel secretly hold nuclear weapons while not allowing other countries to do so? This goes both ways.

I think the difference is that the deep state is a large group of people each with their own agendas and biases. Meanwhile the classical conspiracy theories involve a very well organized group of ultra powerful elites that control everything in a very hierarchal and centralized way. Meanwhile the deep state is not centralized nor well organized. It is basically a list of powerful groups, each with their own agendas. There is no small circle in control dictating everything and the rest abiding. Just my thoughts.

Interesting considering you posted videos of Judge Napolitano and John Mearsheimer regarding Ukraine in your forum to educate us about this issue, yet you basically are disagreeing with the core of their argument. Which is "Putin is doing this against NATO expansion, not to grab land and that if NATO backed off he would not grab further land". That is the core of the very videos you posted on the forum. The reason I found out about John Mearsheimer is because of the video you posted on the forum of him saying that. Same with Judge Napolitano. I know these guys from you. So, I am surprised that now you call that argument childish and naive. Did you change your mind? Curious.

Hahahahahahahahhaahha Hahhahahaahahahahahahhaahah Does it occur you that Germany had done basically genocide in those countries or treated them like shit? Germany killed like 17% of Polish population in 5 years. Palestine treated Arab Jews fairly well until they started getting dumped in mass on the 1920s. They were part of a brutal Ottoman occupation for 500 years. You keep missing historical injustices and historical context. Totally agreed. I do not think 1 state would work. So 2 states. Each living in their own state. Just like Germany and Poland are today 2 different states. What is the problem? You keep not answering me to this. How so? Does PLO want to create the border of Palestine to include all of Israel? Where have they said so in the negotiations they have done. Send me some sources

I am not talking about Iran man, I am talking about Palestine here. Iran is of course a big threat. However, considering they do not have nuclear weapons (at least as we know of) and Israel does, I cannot call Iran an existential threat. But I may be wrong. Anyway, this was not about Iran. Yes but that was in 1967, things are totally different now. And again, we are talking about Palestine here. Recognizing a palestinian state would only ease tensions. Hezbollah would calm down, so would the Houthis. Saudi Arabia and Qatar could become allies. Leo has said it best, Israel wants land more than it wants peace. If they give up land (West Bank) and recognize Palestine, their peace prospects will increase.

It can be whatever it wanted, people now call it occupied Palestinian land and will act according to that. I am talking practical terms here. And the brutal way Israel treats people there does not help. Because that is how you see. Putin sees it differently. Putin would say that a superpower with nuclear weapons at his doorstep that can wipe Russia off the map, is a bigger or equal threat than some radical Jihadists that at their best can just scratch Israel. I do not endorse what he did, just saying that many Russians justify his devilry using this argument. Lastly, do not forget that the official recognized Palestinian government is the PLO, not Hamas. PLO are not jihadist radicals that want to wipe Israel out and would start sending rockets to Israel first thing. They seem to be reasonable and would not start attacking Israel. They can create conditions to the new Palestinian state, one of them being that radical terrorist groups like Hamas will not be allowed to take power.

Then you will get endless terrorist attacks and hatred from Palestinians and despised by most of the world . If that is what you want go ahead. Oh yes, also it will make normalization of relations with other Arab states 10x harder. Saudi and Qatar have made it clear they wont normalize relations without a proper Palestinian state. Nothing in life is purely evil. Putin invasion of Ukraine also has some logic behind it if you try to look for it. You can rationalize everything, including Generplans Ost if you are creative enough. Does not mean it is the right thing to do and should be allowed to proceed. You have struck me as the most moderate Israeli in this forum given all you have written here, but you just spat out right wing Israeli arguments now.

Dude cant you see that you are talking basically like a far right Israeli and even justifying the illegal settlements that basically nobody in the world supports except far right Israelis. Not even many Israelis dont support it. I know @Nivsch has expressed his concerns about it. No offense but you seem like someone who would vote for Ben Gvir. If I am wrong, you can correct me.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/06/1150946 "In several locations, ISF applied the so-called ‘Hannibal Directive’ and killed at least 14 Israeli civilians. That Directive is reportedly a procedure to prevent capture of ISF members by enemy forces and was alleged to have been directed against Israeli civilians on 7 October". @Vrubel @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 `So much for Israel being pro life and caring about its people

It is used by many intelligent people and gives Trump a lot of points. So whether it is stupid or not, it brings votes. I think so too. One thing I think about Trump is that he would be harsher on negotiating peace between Ukraine and Russia. This war at this point is just stupid and unnecessary. Biden cares more about weakening Russia than saving Ukraine which is a policy I cannot endorse. Perhaps, Trump would be the same. But Biden handling of this war at this point is problematic. Ukraine is being destroyed in a cruel war of attrition which is cannot win. They would have been much better off doing a peace deal in 2022 in Istanbul which was basically hijacked by US/UK. John Mearsheimer often mentions it.

Well you do the same for Palestinians all the time. Many Israelis say "Palestine does not exist" and other shameless lies. Also, nobody is saying there were no Jews there. How many times do I have to say it: The issue is NOT with Middle Eastern Jews but with EUROPEAN Jews that mass migrated there from 1900 onward. There is little to no proof a white polish guy is autochthonous to an Arab land. If there is proof, do a DNA test for it. Why should people believe you that a white European Polish is from the middle east from 2000 years ago. A lot of shit can happen in 2000 years. I would not be suprised if some of the European Jews that went to Israel actually became Jews during the millenias they were in Europe and have 0 relation to the land itself. They were basically White Europeans that became one day Jews. Just because the land is claimed to be "Jewish" land does not mean they are entitled to it unless they have roots from there. If you actually talk with people that dont like Israel, that is the main argument they give. They find it basically settler colonialism. So do not attack me personally, I am voicing out the most common argument I hear against Israel. If you want to debunk the lie, you use facts. Thats all. The Torah is not a fact, sorry.