Karmadhi

Please stop with this cringe bias. Both sides have hatred and sick people. I dont like Hamas. Tell me where I liked Hamas. Most people do not like Hamas. But the truth is that Israel is the one killing people. During the Second World War there were huge resistance groups against the Nazis in the occupied countries. Examples being in Belarus, Poland, Yugoslavia. They would attack the German occupiers and the Nazis responded by killing thousands in repriasal attacks. Yet, people do not say "It is the fault of the resistance fighters for attacking Germans because that lead to the Germans killing civilians in response. The fault is on the resistance fighters not the Germans, because they knew how the Germans would react yet they still did it". Nobody says this. Germans are blamed and nobody says anything about the resistance attacks that triggered the Germans to massacre the civilians. Why dont you hold the same standard for Hamas? Because they do tons of war crimes and unnecessary murder. When i see footage of a child head being blown up by an Israeli sniper I will blame Israel. No reason to kill that kid other than pure hatred. I hold Hamas fighters to low standard because most are orphans whose lived have been destroyed by Israel. I do not expect these people to act like saints. You are the one that holds Palestinian civilians in Gaza in a low standard because you believe they support an open genocide towards Israelis. I do not think that. I think most are decent people that want their own country and to live their lives at peace. Hamas fighters do not. For me Hamas fighter and Palestinian civilians are worlds apart. Most of the times at least. There are exceptions. I do not hold Israel in high standard. They are the most ruthless army in the 21st century competing with the Wagner group in terms of brutality. There was news coming that they tortured the people they abducted and interrogated with electoshocks and some died. Now UN put them in the list of countries that harm childreen. Nice job Israel. Another piece of shame in their already destroyed reputation. I dont know where you live but here in Western Europe all the youth is totally disgusted by what Israel is doing. Regardless of where they are from. It is truly baffling how different people tend to be united now by their disgust of Israeli actions. So their reputation is gone now. No you dont. You say "they all celebrated october massacre and therefore I have no empathy for them". As if you read the minds of 2.2 million people. How do you know that? You saw some footage on Youtube of 50 people celebrating. Wow...

And they even seem to justify it. Shameless...

Dude that is how all Palestinians feel now in Gaza. They do not have control over being bombed. I would say hostages might be safer because they are in underground tunnels which are immune to bombing. And they are not starved nor beaten or tortured. Nobody is saying it is not a bad experience but you need to look at all the factors here. And ok, lets say being a hostage is the worst position, I am open to that statement. The number of hostages is still too small compared to all that have died in general. You are having selective empathy here. I understand when you have skin in the game but when you look at it from an outside POV it seems ridiculous. "Lets kill 35.000 because of 200 people". "We saved 4 by killing 200", what a victory and happy moment for us". As an outsider makes you very creeped out by the bias and selective empathy. At the very least can you say something like "We rescued today 4 of our hostages. A very high price was paid by this from Palestinians, we are very sorry for that. However, we have a duty to our people and we will keep moving forward until we have fulfilled that duty". War is hell". This is still biased but at least a statement that I can somewhat respect. Now compare this with the Israeli official statements. Night and day difference.

And Hamas would not have grown if the Israeli government didnt fund them and treat Gazans so badly. Israel is equally responsible here. Goes both ways. Yet you are too blinded by hate and bias to see that. Hamas is a direct result of Israeli policy. It is very obvious when you do not have any skin in the game. Dude, people that were killed mostly did not fuck with Israelis. They minded their own business... They were living their lives and woke up one day and saw the terrorist attack happened in Israel and then immediately had to start moving not to be bombed. I can easily flip the script and say "You dont fuck with Gazans" after October 7th attack. How would you feel about that? But I am not doing it. That is true but Israel had a peace deal proposed by the US. They rejected it. People protested even in Israel about it. They have options but they chose this. So it is not an excuse. They could have chosen peace and negotiation but they chose violence and death. They are also responsible but Israel is the one actually killing people after rejecting peace deals from their allies. If Israel would do anything for life then accept Biden peace deal. They want the hostages and want to have it their way. The result is 200 innocent civilians dead. So Israel is at fault here. If Hamas said "no peace no matter what" then I would understand.

Based on what proof? All hostages I have seen do not have any missing limbs, any bruises or hardcore physical abuse scars. You know Hamas could easily torture them daily and they choose not to? I saw that 8 year old Emily irish girl, she said Hamas did not touch her. Being a hostage is indeed a horrible experience, no doubt. But Hamas could easily have physically tortured them if they wanted. The hospitals in Gaza are full of burnt, blown away, injured people while the hostages bodies are fully intact. They do not even seem to have lost a lot of weight. Look at Ukranian hostages which Russia releases and compare. They look like Holocaust survivors. You can make the case for the men. But women and especially kids do not have a say in that. Even if you take kids only, you have probably 80 kids which are truly innocent. So it seems still horrible ratio to me. Exactly. If Hamas was not open to any deal than I would understand but Israel prefers to mass murder civilians over a deal which would have them compromise a bit. Pure selfishness. That is the issue I have with Israel whole approach. They are so selfish and ruthless that even when something good happens, it is done at a price so high that it is hard for you to see it as a good thing anymore. Like 4 innocent hostages being released should make people happy. It is a good thing. Then you see 200 civilians were killed for that to happen and you start asking yourself if it would be better that it had not even happened. If you see all life equal then you would prefer 200 people to live over 4 people. And it then becomes sad news over happy news. It is messed up. The hostage exchange in November was great. Nobody got killed and both sides had happines come to them. That made me smile.

@Nivsch Apparently they had to kill 200 civilians to get to them. It is good those 4 people are safe now but is it worth the price? Seems like too much to me. Not worth it. Those 210 are not less innocent than those 4 hostages. I understand Israeli citizens have priority over other nations but where do you draw the line? It is much better solution instead to just make a deal with Hamas and those hostages are released without force. Like the 100 last year were. Israel obsession to destroy Hamas even though that is impossible is the issue here. US urged them to do a good deal with them but they refused it. ISIS or Al Qaeda were never destroyed, they were just weakned to the point where they stopped being a threat. Hamas right now is not capable to be a threat. Biden said the same recently. Even if you kill their top leaders in Gaza, someone else will replace them. Seems more like stupid revenge to me than anything else.

I dont like ethnostates and colonialism. That is all. Since Jews are doing it then I will hate on them. Its not inherent hate on them, its hate on their actions. Dude cant you see that dumping million of Europeans in an Arab land is wrong? We live in 2024, people are sensitive to colonialism. I do not have issue with Jews having a state but it is a dick move to make it by kicking out natives of a land. Especially when those natives treated Jews very well. You see, historically Arabs were much nicer to Jews than European Christians. Jews in Europe were unwanted, put in ghettos and finally killed by Europeans during WW2. It would be fitting for Europe to give them a state as compensation. Issue is that they did not do it in their land, but instead picked a land which they controlled where people lived that had nothing to do with oppression of Jews through the centuries. I call it flawed because basically Palestinian Arabs had to pay the price of European devilry. If Israel was made in Germany, I would have no issue with it. It would be very fitting. But Palestinians were much kinder to Jews than Europeans and they did not deserve it. Imagine if an innocent person was treated like shit by a group of people and that had nothing to do with you. Then that group of people felt bad and to make the innocent bullied person feel better, went to your house and told you "this guy been through bad shit, give him half your house". You would be like "wtf dude". There were indeed Jews living in Palestine but they were a minority. Probably many more Jews lived in Europe even after the Holocaust than in Palestine. This is why they keep expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank. Does not seem like "wanting to be left alone" to me.

Jew is someone born in a specific group which relates to Judaism. It is inherent. Zionist is a political movement, an ideology that anyone can support which states that Jews should have an ethno centric country which should be in their holy land etc. The reason Jews get most of their hate nowadays is because of Israel which is seen as many people including myself as colonialism and fundamentally flawed in its design. Therefore, people that support this idea of an ethno Jewish state are called Zionists. No issue with Jews having a state per say, but it should be done with consensus from everyone and not at expense of others. Also people living there should have equal rights. Israel is done without consensus, at expense of the Palestinians which lived there for millenia and non Jews do not have the same rights. Hence the hate. A Jew does not need to be a Zionist per say. A non Jew can also be a Zionist. Zionist is a political ideology like fascism, communism etc. Judaism is a religion and is inherent. Zionism is not. At least that is how I see it. Hard core Zionist would be someone that is against a two state solution and say "The Entire Palestinian Mandate of 1947 should be Israel because it is our holy land etc". So using religious nonsense to justify land grab and ethnic cleansing of indeginous people.

@Nivsch Amnesty International stated, however, that the volume of civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure suggested that Israel was not just trying to target Hezbollah fighters. An AI spokesperson, Kate Gilmore, said that "[t]he pattern, scope and scale of the attacks makes Israel's claim that this was 'collateral damage', simply not credible".[307] "The evidence strongly suggests that the extensive destruction of power and water plants, as well as the transport infrastructure vital for food and other humanitarian relief, was deliberate and an integral part of a military strategy," Gilmore said. On 24 July 2007, Haaretz reported that the official Israeli inquiry into the war "is to include the examination of claims that the IDF committed war crimes during last summer's fighting."[308] A 6 September 2007 Human Rights Watch report found that most of the civilian deaths in Lebanon resulted from "indiscriminate Israeli airstrikes", and found that Israeli aircraft targeted vehicles carrying fleeing civilians.[309] In a statement issued before the report's release, the human rights organization said there was no basis to the Israeli government's claim that civilian casualties resulted from Hezbollah guerrillas using civilians as shields. Kenneth Roth, Human Rights Watch executive director, said there were only "rare" cases of Hezbollah operating in civilian villages. "To the contrary, once the war started, most Hizbollah(sic) military officials and even many political officials left the villages," he said. "Most Hizbollah(sic) military activity was conducted from prepared positions outside Lebanese villages in the hills and valleys around." Roth also noted that "Hezbollah fighters often didn't carry their weapons in the open or regularly wear military uniforms, which made them a hard target to identify. But this doesn't justify the IDF's failure to distinguish between civilians and combatants, and if in doubt to treat a person as a civilian, as the laws of war require."[310] On its final report, issued on 30 January 2008, the Israeli government's Winograd Commission concluded that the Israel Defense Forces did not commit violations or war crimes, as alleged by the Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and other NGOs. The Commission claimed that the evidence shows that the Israel Defense Forces did not target civilians, in contrast to Hezbollah and to denunciations by NGOs, and explained that terms like "war crimes" are without basis.[311] This report also acknowledged that Israel used cluster bombs illegally, stating that "Israel must consider whether it wants to continue using cluster bombs in the future, because its current manner of employing them does not conform to international law."[312] Found this from the 2006 Lebanon Israel war. Why is Israel like this? It seems it is in their blood to do collective punishment against the entire civilian population, it is not just against Hamas or Palestine. Are they generally ruthless or only against certain countries? I am not disputing that they should defend themselves when attacked but why target civilians like this? Why not keep it strictly at military targets?

Please differentiate between Jews and Zionists. Bernie is also a Jew yet he calls out all their devilry. The issue is hardcore Zionists, not your average Jew. And unfortunatenly Israelis have been conditioned to hate Palestinians. I keep seeing on social media testimonies of Israelis saying horrible things about Palestinians like they all are Hamas and should die etc. It has been hundreds at this point. That society is full of hate. Always has been. Palestinians are too. The only reason why I am softer on Palestnians is because they are not very educated and because they have been through immense horrible shit from Israel. Israel has not been through much shit from Palestine. There were basically no deaths of Israelis from Palestinians from 2001 until 2023. Meanwhile thousands of Palestinians died in that period. An example would be the 2014 Gaza war where basically no civilian Israeli died but 1500 Palestinian civilians died.

Western Ukraine has always been anti Russian. Part of it is the brutal Stalin famine which I totally understand. It killed millions. But the Nazis later on killed even more and for some reason only the hatred for Russia stayed. Point is that great powers menddle in the elections of small countries. Yet only Ukraine makes a big deal out of it. This stems from anti Russian sentiment. Perhaps the Soviet era was bad to Ukraine even after Stalin. I do not know. I do not have enough information. All I know is that there were issues and most of them are Russians. If they want to be part of Russia, it is totally understandable. Perhaps they do not want to be part of Russia anymore and they see themselves as Ukranian. In that case, sure. It is a tricky topic because different people there will say different things. Ideally a clean referendum would have been nice to decide where the region should stay. It is not when most of the aid comes from the US. US is much involved here. Might as well call Vietnam an Asian war. Now Ukraine is striking Russia with US weapons. Thing is we need to know for sure if the Ukranian government post 2014 was or was not a Western puppet government. A lot say that CIA was involved in the Maidan revolution. I have read all sorts of stuff. Personally I do not know. But for sure the West influences Ukranian foreign policy a lot. Probably as much as Russia influences Belarus or Georgia foreign policy. Or close to it. You have partisanship from all sides. Some blame the West for this war, some blame Putin. Some blame both. There is a lot of conflicting arguments and views, it is hard to believe for sure anything. Normally I would just believe the side that is more honest but issue is that I do not see either the US nor Russia as honest parties. US has showed on the Gaza war how much they are willing to lie. Russia lies a ton too. So we have 2 liars telling us two different versions and you need now to decide the truth. It is hard. I tend to listen to both sides but I have little strong opinions on this matter. Even social media does not help. Plenty telling Zelensky in comments to stop the war, then other comments saying to keep fighting. The only things I can say for sure is that the invasion is totally wrong and tons of war crimes happened in Ukraine which were unnecessary.

You missed my point. I am not comparing it to that. I am saying that people that have actually went through hard stuff have said so. Since you claimed "you have not experienced shit so you cannot talk", which is indeed true. So I sent some people that have experienced shit and that is what they had to say. Keep in mind that a genocide does not need to kill millions or 50%+ of the population to be labeled as much. During the Bosnian war, around 30.000 Bosnian civilians were killed (also 30.000 soldiers) and it is called a genocide due to the targeting and intent showed. That is my point. If you read about the crimes that were done in Bosnia, it is quite similar to what the IDF is doing. An example would be snipers killing civilians as they wished, which happens in Gaza a lot. Even kids get shot. I saw a very disturbing video of a very young kid who had half his head blown off from a sniper shot. Sure, I agree with you. Thing is when you equate couple hundreds of civilians killed with tens of thousands it looses the value. Your logic is that 1 of us died and 50 of them. We both did bad things. In theory yes, but it is not proportional, hence 1 side is much worse. They chose the worst place in the world to settle too. That is a direct consequence of that. I would love if Israel lived in peace with its neighbors but the way the country was founded was flawed which leads to this bullshit. As long as it is seen as theft, people will do this.

You have no proof to back up that. Israel itself has no clue how many civilians they have killed. Piers Morgan easily grilled their official spokeperson in his show about this.

You are right. You me or the other guy has not experienced anything horrible like this. Lets maybe look at what those that have experienced horror says about it. Like some Holocaust survivors. BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza "More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza. The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times" Hmmm.... Also Russia could do a lot worse in Ukraine. By that logic we are also cool with Putin now?

If you guys had the same tolerance for Palestinians that you do for LGBT Instead of being happy when they die.

Issue is that the israeli army does tons of war crimes and is overall very racist. They abuse childreen in the west bank, bully people etc. I saw an interview of an ex IDF guy who said "We all have total knowledge of who lives where in the West Bank and sometimes we do raids in the middle of the night, knowing the people in that house are innocent. We did it in order to keep them obedient to us. This had made the guy question the approach and later went to denounce it. This is for example someone I can respect. Another case I saw was where they would put Palestinians in very closed spaces as punishment's and then forget about them and they were stuck there for hours or even days. Sometimes the soldiers did it out of boredoom. There was another confession by ex IDF about this. I wish I could find the videos to send it here. So an army like this to me seems basically a gang of bullies and criminals. Serving in it pollutes your ethics. There are way too many incidents like this to justify it. I am not saying everyone there is like this but the undertone and systemic approach is extremely ruthless, especially by our modern liberal moral standards. Which is why I cannot respect people that endorse such a bully machine. Defending you country is one thing but the shit I wrote above is just cruel and wrong and unecessary. And about the nerdy girl doing programming. Here is what a programmer with orthodox Jew ideology can lead to: ‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

Sorry, I meant of beheaded babies or people tied in and burnt alive and that horrible stuff people wrote without any footage. I did see the footage at Hamas.com. It was basically people shot mostly. I did not see woman belly opened or baby in an oven or anything like that. Let alone done in plural, meaning in multiple cases. Scale also matters here. 1-2 incidents is not the same as a systematic approach. Saying people were shot is 1 thing. Saying people were killed in the most medievil mongolian way is another. I am challenging the second point, not the first. Hamas systematic approach was shot in the head whoever you saw. That is a Nazi approach, not a medieval approach.

There are plenty of very reasonable Palestinian officials. They may be corrupt in terms of abusing funds but they are not for destruction of Israel. West Bank government I think is moderate enough for a two state. I have seen on Piers Morgan Palestinian officials come and they are very reasonable people. At least much more than Bibi or Ben Gvir. Hamas is indeed anti two state but they do not need to be the governing body. And most Palestinians live in the West Bank, not in Gaza. There were reasonable Israelis on the past, sure. But today it seems they go from right to Nazi right. There is no center or left anymore. Even "moderates" would be considered far right here in Europe. The October attacks make Israelis more right and Israel massacre in Gaza makes Palestinians more right. So we are stuck in this shit. I think it would be good if both top Israeli and Hamas leaders would be arrested and trialed for war crimes by the international court. So people from both sides would learn that you cannot get away with bullshit. Also the West Bank illegal settlements need to stop and be torned down. Palestine according to 1960s borders need to be cleansed from illegal settlements. I think these 2 things would be a good start and they are not that impossible to be done. I mean, what justification is there for the West Bank illegal settlements? To me it seems plain wrong. More than 500 or so people have died since October there, it is now almost as many as Israeli October attack. And they had nothing to do with it. It makes Palestinians rightfully think that even if Hamas was gone and they created a moderate government they would still be treated like shit and have more land illegaly stolen. How do people in Isarel justify this?

Issue is that Israel is unwilling to give them a proper state, always has been. If Israel was serious about peace it would give Palestine a state, according to the 1948 borders. If that is not possible, 1967 borders. I understand that is very hard now with Hamas being so popular but why did they not do it in the past? I read that Bibi personally tried to undermine the Oslo accords and many Israelis have said they were a shit deal for Palestinians. I see a total lack of desire from Israel to become serious about this.

Yes, but I was refering to their attitude before 2014. There was tons of hate. Yanakovic was democratically elected. Being messed around yes but that is normal. Every big power does so. You think US doesnt? They influence my home country all the time. It is a big power thingy. I do not see people pissed about it except Ukraine. I wish it did not happen in general but that is how the world is. To be frank, what made Ukraine anti Russia is the appeal of the west and its wealth. It is very tempting to start looking westward when you see how rich it is compared to Russia. Yes, they happen to push their shit on others. The hatred now from the war is normal. But why didnt Ukraine let those regions become independent? It was at first the goal to make them indepndent republics. They themselves wanted to. Or am i missing something? Just to be clear. I do not like Russia nor their government. To me all the stolen territory should go back to Ukraine Russian leaders charged for war crimes and the whole government replaced with a liberal democracy. I just dont think they are much worse than the US from a foreign policy POV. So in terms of invading, bombing, toppling government, destablizing and pure selfishness. US has invaded and destroyed more countries than Russia has to be frank. The only thing US has better than Russia, is how they treat their own citizens which is miles apart from Russia. But in terms of pure foreign policy, to me it is basically trash vs garbage. Even if Russia magically became a democracy like the US is, I would not think things would improve considering how bad US foreign policy is (and they are a democracy) EU policy I like much more, especially those of small countries like Scandinavian, Belgium, Ireland.

You need to see it in full display to see the suffering your country is causing. Reading about it is not the same. The main reason people are so emotional and pissed about this war are the endless footage of burnt, dead, blown apart kids circulating since October. Compare it with Ukraine where there is no footage of dead people, just destroyed buildings. People barely care about that war anymore from a humanitarian perspective. Dead kids make people react more than anything else. Meanwhile there is basically no footage of dead kids from October attacks. If you wonder why people seem to downplay those attacks so much.

There are protests right now by Israeli liberals and activists calling out the atrocities done in Gaza. Those Israelis are what you would call "the best humanity have to offer", they are the equivalent of anti Putin Russians or anti Nazi Germans. Unfortunately such people are few. Since you coined this term here "the best humanity has to offer", I would use that for Israelis that are against the war crimes in Gaza and against right wing Zionism. This is the best humanity has to offer. Eternal respect and love. They should lead Israel towards a better path.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008–2009) It is shocking how brutal Israel has always been on Gaza. It is the same tactics, the same crimes as today. And back then there was no October terrorist attacks. Whoever blames this on Hamas massacring civilians is full of shit. They always targeted Gaza as a whole even when there were no killings of Israeli civilians. The only difference now is that the scale is 40 times larger. It is sad that those kids that became orphans or had kids die from this, ended up joining Hamas and maybe being implicated on the October terrorist attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War Also this one, but this is fairly more known. By reading this, I understand where the hatred of Palestinians comes from towards Israel. I cannot seem to find where Israeli hatred of Palestinians comes from. The last proper attack against Israeli population was in 2001. And the last proper war was 50 years ago. Where do the 20 year olds get this hate in Israel?

Dont you find it disturbing that it is hard with us that have no real horse in the race to reach consensuses with relatively conscious Israelis (I say so since they are even on this forum). Imagine now for ur average Palestinian who has dead people from Israel to reach consensus with a government full of radicals. Impossible...

Ok, but was the land they bought 60% of Palestine? Also did the number of Jews that migrated there legally become 60% of the people that lived in the land? If yes, then I stand corrected. I am not against the partition plan but to me whenever you split land, it should be proportional to the people that live there. The majority gets most of the land. But that is my bias. Again, the issue I got is that a British guy can claim Israeli citizenship meanwhile a Palestinian cannot. That is a big issue. Legality is tricky because laws change with time. If by legal you mean the Palestinian government (yes, they had passports even), approved it then it is fair game. If by legal you mean the UK said "these people will come here", then that is a red flag. Because UK has their own interest and agenda. Issue is the excuse they use for it. Israelis say "we are here because the land was ours 2000 years ago". Putin says "Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity 1000 years ago and therefore we claim it again".