Karmadhi

@Danioover9000 It is just for fun at this point. Nobody will change their mind if they did not change it yet. Neither we, or them. For me it is interesting because I have 0 friends that side with Israel and therefore it was the chance to learn from their pov. And we had very varied Israelis here, from least to most hardcore. The best playground to test Leo bias videos (including ours). We are also biased. By we, I mean pro Palestinians.

@Raze The amount of war crimes they do at this point does not even shock me anymore. I dont know what else is left for them to do. Every evil known to the human mind has been done at this point there. 100x worse than Hamas attacks Israeli politician quotes Hitler, talks of wiping out Gaza | Al Jazeera Newsfeed (youtube.com) The face of modern Israel, i honestly do not understand how a Jew think about quoting Hitler out of all people. Seems like 4 Israeli ministers are Neo Nazi in their attitude (agriculture and heritiage minister on top of the common 2 which are well known to be like that).

Also Maldives kicked them out and dont allow them to come anymore. I would not be suprised if Non American/European countries basically boycott Israel in many ways, if they continue with their bs.

It does matter a lot because it makes Hamas has a certain image which may or not be true. Saying "A group of people went in a village and shot everyone they found and raped some" is a classical textbook military practice which still happens today. It is unfortunately still common in war. Russians did it in Bucha, US did it in Vietnam. Etc. Saying "A group of people went into a village, beheaded babies, put babies in ovens, tied childreen and burned them alive, cut bellies of preagant women etc", is no longer a classical textbook military practice. It happens in very specific places around the world but humanity at large has evolved past this. It paints the group as a bunch of barbaric medieval people. It creates much stronger emotions. Leo has said it well "It is not just how many you kill, but also how you kill that counts". 1 clip of a beheaded Palestinian baby killed in Rafah caused an insane outrage, much more than literally hundreds of children's that have been shot dead by Israeli snipers. It creates powerful emotions. What happened that day is indeed horrific, no deny there. But the way you portray the people responsible is important because it will then justify doing horrible things back. If the emotional outrage that causes that justification is built based on lies, it makes the whole ordeal much more manipulative and untruthful.

@Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 The difference between you 2 is that Nivsch tends to be more central in his views regarding this issue while Gennadiy is more radical. Nivsch calls people like Ben Gvir too radical and extreme. Also most importantly, he is in favour of two state and does not use Torah and bible stuff to justify anything. And he seems to have some compassion for the suffering of Palestinians and does admit the government goes too far sometimes. So yeah. @Vrubel Is somewhere between Nivsch and Gennadiy. More harsh than Nivsch but less radical than Gennadiy. He is pro two state and recognizes that the land is also partially Palestinian. But when it comes to the Israeli Gaza response, I have not seen him say that they went too far ever. My assessment of you guys. Thank you for being here and posting about this, it gives interesting insight of Israelis and how they differ towards this issues.

Maybe in the past. Now they want land more than peace. The West Bank illegal expansion is the proof. They could easy have some UN presence or international presence to ensure that will not happen. And worse case it happens, Israel will be way more justified to invade them and kick them out of power. Just like US invaded Iraq and took out their dictator. And why should Israel secretly hold nuclear weapons while not allowing other countries to do so? This goes both ways.

I think the difference is that the deep state is a large group of people each with their own agendas and biases. Meanwhile the classical conspiracy theories involve a very well organized group of ultra powerful elites that control everything in a very hierarchal and centralized way. Meanwhile the deep state is not centralized nor well organized. It is basically a list of powerful groups, each with their own agendas. There is no small circle in control dictating everything and the rest abiding. Just my thoughts.

Interesting considering you posted videos of Judge Napolitano and John Mearsheimer regarding Ukraine in your forum to educate us about this issue, yet you basically are disagreeing with the core of their argument. Which is "Putin is doing this against NATO expansion, not to grab land and that if NATO backed off he would not grab further land". That is the core of the very videos you posted on the forum. The reason I found out about John Mearsheimer is because of the video you posted on the forum of him saying that. Same with Judge Napolitano. I know these guys from you. So, I am surprised that now you call that argument childish and naive. Did you change your mind? Curious.

Hahahahahahahahhaahha Hahhahahaahahahahahahhaahah Does it occur you that Germany had done basically genocide in those countries or treated them like shit? Germany killed like 17% of Polish population in 5 years. Palestine treated Arab Jews fairly well until they started getting dumped in mass on the 1920s. They were part of a brutal Ottoman occupation for 500 years. You keep missing historical injustices and historical context. Totally agreed. I do not think 1 state would work. So 2 states. Each living in their own state. Just like Germany and Poland are today 2 different states. What is the problem? You keep not answering me to this. How so? Does PLO want to create the border of Palestine to include all of Israel? Where have they said so in the negotiations they have done. Send me some sources

I am not talking about Iran man, I am talking about Palestine here. Iran is of course a big threat. However, considering they do not have nuclear weapons (at least as we know of) and Israel does, I cannot call Iran an existential threat. But I may be wrong. Anyway, this was not about Iran. Yes but that was in 1967, things are totally different now. And again, we are talking about Palestine here. Recognizing a palestinian state would only ease tensions. Hezbollah would calm down, so would the Houthis. Saudi Arabia and Qatar could become allies. Leo has said it best, Israel wants land more than it wants peace. If they give up land (West Bank) and recognize Palestine, their peace prospects will increase.

It can be whatever it wanted, people now call it occupied Palestinian land and will act according to that. I am talking practical terms here. And the brutal way Israel treats people there does not help. Because that is how you see. Putin sees it differently. Putin would say that a superpower with nuclear weapons at his doorstep that can wipe Russia off the map, is a bigger or equal threat than some radical Jihadists that at their best can just scratch Israel. I do not endorse what he did, just saying that many Russians justify his devilry using this argument. Lastly, do not forget that the official recognized Palestinian government is the PLO, not Hamas. PLO are not jihadist radicals that want to wipe Israel out and would start sending rockets to Israel first thing. They seem to be reasonable and would not start attacking Israel. They can create conditions to the new Palestinian state, one of them being that radical terrorist groups like Hamas will not be allowed to take power.

Then you will get endless terrorist attacks and hatred from Palestinians and despised by most of the world . If that is what you want go ahead. Oh yes, also it will make normalization of relations with other Arab states 10x harder. Saudi and Qatar have made it clear they wont normalize relations without a proper Palestinian state. Nothing in life is purely evil. Putin invasion of Ukraine also has some logic behind it if you try to look for it. You can rationalize everything, including Generplans Ost if you are creative enough. Does not mean it is the right thing to do and should be allowed to proceed. You have struck me as the most moderate Israeli in this forum given all you have written here, but you just spat out right wing Israeli arguments now.

Dude cant you see that you are talking basically like a far right Israeli and even justifying the illegal settlements that basically nobody in the world supports except far right Israelis. Not even many Israelis dont support it. I know @Nivsch has expressed his concerns about it. No offense but you seem like someone who would vote for Ben Gvir. If I am wrong, you can correct me.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/06/1150946 "In several locations, ISF applied the so-called ‘Hannibal Directive’ and killed at least 14 Israeli civilians. That Directive is reportedly a procedure to prevent capture of ISF members by enemy forces and was alleged to have been directed against Israeli civilians on 7 October". @Vrubel @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 `So much for Israel being pro life and caring about its people

It is used by many intelligent people and gives Trump a lot of points. So whether it is stupid or not, it brings votes. I think so too. One thing I think about Trump is that he would be harsher on negotiating peace between Ukraine and Russia. This war at this point is just stupid and unnecessary. Biden cares more about weakening Russia than saving Ukraine which is a policy I cannot endorse. Perhaps, Trump would be the same. But Biden handling of this war at this point is problematic. Ukraine is being destroyed in a cruel war of attrition which is cannot win. They would have been much better off doing a peace deal in 2022 in Istanbul which was basically hijacked by US/UK. John Mearsheimer often mentions it.

Well you do the same for Palestinians all the time. Many Israelis say "Palestine does not exist" and other shameless lies. Also, nobody is saying there were no Jews there. How many times do I have to say it: The issue is NOT with Middle Eastern Jews but with EUROPEAN Jews that mass migrated there from 1900 onward. There is little to no proof a white polish guy is autochthonous to an Arab land. If there is proof, do a DNA test for it. Why should people believe you that a white European Polish is from the middle east from 2000 years ago. A lot of shit can happen in 2000 years. I would not be suprised if some of the European Jews that went to Israel actually became Jews during the millenias they were in Europe and have 0 relation to the land itself. They were basically White Europeans that became one day Jews. Just because the land is claimed to be "Jewish" land does not mean they are entitled to it unless they have roots from there. If you actually talk with people that dont like Israel, that is the main argument they give. They find it basically settler colonialism. So do not attack me personally, I am voicing out the most common argument I hear against Israel. If you want to debunk the lie, you use facts. Thats all. The Torah is not a fact, sorry.

Please stop with this biased cringe. It is delusional. Let me sober you with some actual reality https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/11/un-children-conflict-gaza-russia-sudan/3120d6ee-2839-11ef-835a-2a6acac1f8a6_story.html "For the first time, the U.N. report put Israeli forces on its blacklist of countries that violate children's rights for the killing and maiming of children and attacking schools and hospitals". Very life loving indeed.

No. Obama did. Bush did. The argument is because Trump is unpredictable and non diplomatic, it would make countries think twice about starting wars that hurt the US. Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine like he did. This is one example I hear people say. I am not an expert per say. But i do know Putin did not invade Ukraine under Trump. Perhaps it is chance, perhaps it was by design.

It is illegal under international law. UN has said it clearly. No country supports it. Only hardcore Jews like yourself. Different times, different circumstances, different leaders. You cannot compare. Still 1000x better than how Europe treated Jews. For the most part they lived together in harmony. Plenty of Jews came to Palestine and were welcomed. Of course not everyone was happy about that, so here we go. And israel did 1000x worse afterwards, so... No they will not. That is what Israel wants. To create greater Israel and within it, to treat certain groups as lower citizens aka apartheid. If you guys were serious about peace, you would have Israel within 1960s borders with top tier security, you would be much safer than having to micro manage the West Bank and Gaza. But you want land more than security. That is the issue. Your fundamental argument for shameless illegal land grab is religious nonsense. When you start talking to me about Bible stuff, then you already lost. Nobody uses religion to justify shit on 2024. We are beyond that now. If you want to be serious about it, do a DNA test and see if you are actually from that land you call Israel. Science is how you prove this shit, not religion. When Islam uses holy books to justify stuff, they get shamed for it. There is a reason DNA tests are illegal in Israel. Because if people started doing them, they would realize that they do not belong there and are just shameless colonizers and their whole identity would collapse.

How so? I heard no wars started under him, which is one reason he is so popular. Obama and Biden started a tons of wars, or a ton of wars started under them.

That is true, but is the case with a lot of politicians. It is just that on Trump it is more prominent. To even be a top politican you need to be selfish as fuck, ruthless and fuck a ton of people over. Politicians with true integrity are rare. A lot of the games they play are not even visible for most of us because it happens so behind the scenes. So although Trump is horrible, the criticisms you lay of him are not only applicant to him.

Not that many. It is crazy that they have such key positions considering how little they represent.

Dude, nobody is saying Israel should dissapear and all the Jews from there go back to Europe. You are the one wanting Palestinians to fuck off from their own land. Cant you see how crazy that is! Why dont you do the 2 state solution and everyone lives and chills in their state. Issue is Israel wants land more than it wants peace. Their actions are inflammatory to peace. Especially West Bank ILLEGAL settlements. Here is a solution for you: Recognize Palestine according to 1960s borders, kick out all the illegal settlers and leave in Israel and chill there. You dont seem to appreciate Palestinians though.

What is interesting is that if most of us would talk about most other topics, we would greatly agree. This one tends to seperate us a lot. And it is because some of you have direct skin in the game.

@Nivsch Can you please answer my question? It came from genioune curioustiy not criticism.