Karmadhi

@Gennadiy1981 Do you like Ben Gvir and Smotricht?

I agree. Usually sanctions make the country worse which can spark resentment against the current government and lead to revolutions or overthrows. That is the logic. If you want for example Putin gone, there is not other realistic way. You cannot just invade Russia you know. You can invade Iraq though. If a country has nuclear weapons you cannot invade them.

To be frank you are a moderate Israeli. The issue is not with people like you. It is with more radical people. So I can understand you.

There is also plenty of collective punishment happening against Israelis in the world by normal people. But on an institution level there is none yet. Israel is still allowed to participate in the Olympics, Eurovision etc. On an individual level, I saw plenty of clips of Israelis not being allowed to serve in restourants etc. Personally, I think it is wrong because you do not know what that individual thinks. Same with Russians. Although, statistically speaking most Israelis do support what happened to Gaza and most Russians do support what happened in Ukraine. But not everyone.

I think he does this guys to show that Israel is a normal country, they have a beach, people chilling in evening and everything else. Considering that the whole vibe here is to demonize Israel to the point of looking at them as non humans. But the picture shows that it is indeed a beautiful country with normal people just like me and you. They are not so different from other people. I think this is what he is going for when posting these pictures.

Interesting proposition. It reminds me of Hamsterdam from the Wire Season 3. The closest thing we have to it, is Amsterdam in Netherlands. When I was there you had access to all types of weed, LSD and Shrooms/Truffles. Also in Netherlands you can go to ayahasca retraits. In terms of legalizing cocaine or heroin I am a little less enthusiastic. Especially heroin, which can become addictive very very fast and is deadly. Cocaine I never tried but I find it more ok to be used due to it not being so addictive and requiring a big ass amount to die from it. Lets face it, tons of rich people use cocaine. Now for the city to work, you need 2 components. 1. It needs to be on a developed city (society wise). Stage Green is the bare minimum. Stage Yellow would be ideal. I would put Amsterdam quite green. 2. The surrounding areas need to be also somewhat developed and also not easy to smuggle the powerful drugs. So although it is a good idea it can only be done at certain parts of the world. Lastly, It is very important for a spiritual roadmap to exist and be easily accessable. It is often the case that people try these drugs, including shrooms, yet they do not really grow from them. They see it as a fun hallucination experience and nothing more. They miss all the spiritual and metaphysical components that a deep trip can do. It would be amaizing if in these cities you could hire experienced trippers to guide you during your trip. I did that with a friend who is very spiritual and the trip was life changing in terms of inner growth. But that is not really the case with most people that took it. What do you think?

Of course. I am not saying why their friends and relatives protest. I am talking about society at large. It goes both ways. Issue is that I blame Israel for the hostages as much because they could have ended it a long time ago. Just end the war, leave Gaza and they will be released. Also, I seen footage of the released ones and they all seem relatively in good shape. I am sure they will be released in the long run. Their biggest threat is Israel bombing them or shooting them by mistake. Hamas will not kill them. If they wanted to, all of them would be dead a long time ago. I think protesting for their release is the right thing, but would be nice if people also mentioned that Gazans are suffering too. Truth is that the Israeli government wants land and to kill Hamas more than they want the hostages to be free. They prefer to kill 300 innocent Palestinians to free 3 of them, instead of just ending the war to get all of them. That is the issue here. Hamas is already quite weakened. They just want to kill their top leadership and do not care about concequences. What Israel does not understand, is that the vaccum will be filled by other people. It is like putting a drug lord to jail, one of his subordinates or rivals will fill his place. As long as there is demand. And the demand has been hugely increased with all the 40.000 people killed in Gaza. Tons of people will want to join now. This war is a total failure. But that is what happens when half of the government are fascists. A more moderate government would have ended this war months ago.

@Nivsch Why dont they protest also for all the bad things happening in Gaza? Or is their sympathy only for the hostages? How about they also protesting about the boy with down syndrome who was killed by dogs while in his home? Where are the protests about that? They seem as morally developed as Gazans to be frank. Only care about their own. The rest can be wiped out, who cares. Sad.

The more I see this war, the more I think that the world should dis own Israel and leave them alone against the Arabs unless they start respecting international laws. Today the ICJ ruled that the Occupation of the Palestinian territories as illegal, yet they will not change their action. Coercion is needed. Otherwise they will never learn. It is like a country with corrupt politicans, as long as there is no mechanism to imprison them for corruption then they will keep stealing. I cannot even blame Israel fully at this point, I blame the rest of the "civilized world" for allowing these devils to keep doing what they do. A devil will not be reformed unless he is faced the consequences of his devilry. You can say that the October attacks were Israel facing the consequences of their policies, but they will never admit it. And that also broke international laws, so it cannot be called a proper response to devilry. A proper response would be sanctions, cutting all ties and basically being disowned. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjerjzxlpvdo

Fair

Can you please send me the links where I can see footage of Hamas doing anything to civilians that is not shootings, beatings or rape? I tried and could not find. You talk about their most barbaric acts. I want to see those livestreams. And regarding setting houses on fire, I read on many sources that Israeli tanks did fire on houses during fighting and also during their employment of the Hannibal doctrine. I believe a credible Israeli source claimed the Hannibal doctrine was implemented. So the issue is that the whole thing seems fishy. I do not think beating people with hammer sounds ridiciolous if you think IDF is as ruthless as Hamas is. It only sounds crazy if you think they are some sort of ethical army.

Ideally you need to give specific cases or examples of biases and double standards. I tried to do it with the Wagner hammer comparison only to be labeled stuff. Only when Boby intervened, did Vrubel elaborate and gave his version. Lets try on this forum to actually give examples and elaborations when we call someone biased. Since this forum is focused on Leo's epistemic work, the biggest boggyman is the word "bias". It has become basically a meaningless slur to say to those that disagree with you, without proper backup of why the term is used. I have also been guilty of this, will not deny it. From now on, I will try to always give examples or proof when I call someone biased. PS: Calling Leo biased against Israel when he is neither Arab, neither Jewish, neither Muslim, neither Zionist, neither SJW, neither pro lobby, neither Would be good if everyone here started doing it.

Dont forget the 10.000 under the rubble, mostly civilians. With them included it is around 50.000.

Leo has been quite supportive of Ukraine and has said openly that Russia violated international law and has done war crimes. I have not seen him be biased against Ukraine. And Ukraine is also a tricky situation and a Western allied nation. He is critical of Israel because they corrupt USA through their lobbies and influence the media to suit their agenda. Leo's greatest value is Truth and Israel tries hard in the West to distort truth. I have not seen Leo support Hamas either, just understand their perspective and not paint them as cartoonish evil terrorists like Israelis do. So calling him out as biased is quite unfair.

Thank you. To be honest there I wrote a very polarizing thing on purpose, but on the longer replies I try to be nuanced and objective. There I was not being serious. I will admit that. This is not me being serious. A serious note would be: They seem to employ similar tactics and total lack of care for international law.

@Vrubel I remember you used to call out Wagner for smashing someone s head with a hammer yet you stay silent when IDF beat up an innocent man with hammer. Raze sent the clip. IDF makes Wagner look soft these days.

Yet you believe Hamas put babies in oven and decapitated people and other stuff. Why so? There is 0 proof of any of those. Yet you doubt IDF being equally barbaric? At this point they got more proof than Hamas. If you got proof please send me. I looked for hours and all the proof I found was some go pro videos of people getting shot with a gun. Also some people beaten and cases of rape. No beheadings, no burnings. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo Meanwhile here you have proof of IDF barbarism.

This thread reached 100 pages too.

So both Arab Muslims in Israel and Jews in the new Palestinian state can either choose to live where they want or have to go to the other state. Of course I support equality here.

All Slavs come originally from 1 place, perhaps 3000 years ago. They are called "Slavs" for a reason. Go back enough in time to see. I will repeat it since you seem to not get it. I am talking about a time frame of 1000 to 2000 years here. What war are you talking about? Was there a specific war on 200 AD I am not remembering? Maybe another one 1000 BC. This is the timeframe I use. Not 1920. So when I say Russia and Ukraine originated from 1 place, I am saying they did probably 2000 years ago for example. As a secular citizen, I do not look into Bibles or Qurans when it comes to borders. I look at the international law. Bible is irrelevant to me. The world does not operate on Bibles. We use codified civil law in 2024. If want holy book governance go to Iran or Afghanistan. If you want Israel to become the Iran of Judaism, then at least tell me so I will reply to you in a different manner. I am replying to you as as secular orange person, not a blue fundamentalist. No, I meant tons of our land was taken from us in the past, Poland too. We are not trying to illegally take it back because it was ours at some point. Israel is with West Bank.

@Nivsch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba It is clearly defined as ethnic cleansing.

Israelis kicked out illegally 700.000 Palestinians, so it is perfectly realistic to kick out those Israelis that do not belong there (In West Bank) and are in principle violators of international law (aka criminals). Nobody is killing them. If you build a house in an area that you cannot built, it is governmental right to demolish it and not reimburse you. Go build in Central Park and see what happens to you for example. You can apply the same standard here, if you want to actually respect the law as the democracy you claim to be. And if you really feel so bad for them, Israel can reimburse them or build housing for them. Regarding "not secure borders physically", perhaps you can elaborate on that because I am not clear.

You are talking about last 100 years, I am talking stuff from 1000 years ago. Since for Israelis, history from 2000 years ago is relevant, I am using that time frame. Obviously in the last 100 years Ukraine and Russia are not the same thing. But at 500 AD from what I saw they were same tribes. And why did Jews get like 60% of the land when they were 2x less? Why not give them 30%? Also in 1947 there were tons of Jews put there, if you see in 1920 for example the ratio was like 10 to 1. But even if we use 1947 demographics, it is still an unfair split. I think tons in Poland were salty about it but could not do anything. Also I saw they list slightly more than they gained. Including historical Polish cities. It is Israel fault for that. They funded and pushed for Hamas and tried to sabotage the more moderate Palestinian parties. There is concerte proof of that. So maybe ask Bibi to start supporting moderate Palestinians over Hamas. He did that so you can tell me here that "Palestinians are violent and they do not want peace blla blla". https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ A compromise is a proper Palestinian state within 1967 borders. If they start war again as a soverign state, then we will not cry here about war crimes as much. Your logic is: Let Palestinians live in terror and oppression so Israelis can live at peace. Not only that is super biased, but that attitude leads to terrorist attacks and Israelis do not leave at peace even. Loss loss. Support a Palestinian government that is pro co existance and two states, give them full independence and support and you will have a proper solution. But that will entail tons of illegal settlers being kicked out which Israel does not want. They want peace and to steal land. You cannot have both.

Bro they are the same ethnicity, Slavs. Same religion too. Even langugages are similar. They come from the same place, wherever it is. Too similar they are. We call them different now because things change throughout the times. Bro no Christian countries left. Only some hardcore Islam ones like Iran and Saudi. Even countries like Egypt, Morocco etc are secular. They have civil law, not Sharia law. And all Christian countries have civil law. There were like millions living in the land called Palestine which Jews kicked out in mass in 1948. Two state then. Sure Never claimed otherwise. I just challenge your proposals that is all. Gaza and West Bank are not Israel. Israel has clearly defined borders. If you want to expand them, then you are breaking international law and are an invader. You think other countries do not have land that historically could have belonged to them? Half of Poland was given to USSR, half of my own country was stolen by our neighboors and the natives got kicked out or assimilated. We are not starting wars and illegally annexing land. Nether is Poland. Israel is fine as it is.

@Leo Gura However, I also heard about another argument. It says that the main reason that caused to Hamas to attack Israel when they did was because of the Abraham accords which were forged under Trump. Those accords did not take Palestinian statehood into account and therefore they attacked to avoid their signing. Using this argument, Trump is a big factor that the attack happened in the first place. So, it is a mess. One side blames Biden, another Trump Sorry, this part I posted when you were replying so maybe you did not see it. I am not aware of all the details. I am writting here the arguments I hear Pro Trump people use a lot. Even people from the Middle East want him to win because they think he will make the region safe again. I guess Trump got lucky with no wars starting under him and now he uses that chance to take the merit for it even if it is not his. I really wonder though how Trump would have reacted if Putin invaded Ukraine under his watch. If he would have pushed Zelensky to accept the peace agreement in Istanbul in 2022 which was mediated by Turkey and Israel. Mearsheimer talks often about it.