Karmadhi

Because USA is a continent. Europe is made out of many countries. So it is easier for Europe on an individual country level to be less divided since each country has much more autonomy than a US state, even if those European countries are part of the EU. The difference between US states is MUCH bigger than the difference between regions of an European country. Also as Leo said, excess capitalism is a factor. Lastly, except some Eastern European countries, religion plays a smaller role in Europe than it does in some of the US states. Therefore, it creates further friction.

@Hardkill It is not just in USA. We have it in Europe where i live, especially Western europe. You can see by the EU Parliament results, where far right parties gained a lot of votes. My theory is that in general stage green went strong and now we are seeing the ego backlash of blue/orange. Is it not a coincidence for example that after the first black president was elected, a historical achievment for the US, the next guy is a racist? It seems almost that the USA society had an egoic backlash to the progressive idea of a black president, resulting in the total opposite person being chosen. A white racist nationalist (Trump). In Europe we had very liberal green policies, especially related to mass immigration during the 2015 crisis and now we have the far right at our doorstep. Not to mention the LGBT stuff, another box of warms. We are currently seeing the battle between green and blue/orange. High taxation for rich vs low. Pro immigration vs against Pro LGBT vs family values. Secularism vs religion. Etc

Let me clarify. If someone uses religion, holy books, to justify policies, actions or outlooks, then you are fundamentalist. Also if international law is second to the laws of your holy books. I use it here more harshly because I expect higher from this forum. I would say you are also fundamentalist since you seem quite religious. Fundamentalist to me is basically a very religious person, not necessarily a bad person. Depends how they apply it. But if you would prioritize the Torah rules over international law then you are indeed fundamenalist. I see Israelis do it sometimes. Muslims too. Goes everywhere.

Is Israeli society still pro war at large or wants a ceasefire now? I see some narratives that they mostly want the war to continue except the families of the hostages and more liberal Isarelis. Another narrative is that basically Israel except Bibi and the far right want the war to end. How are things looking on the ground? https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-hamas-cant-be-eliminated-will-remain-in-gaza-if-no-alternative/ I find it very interesting the inner conflicts within Israeli society about this war and Palestine at large. Not to mention the role Judaism should have in society. Actually when it comes to analysing Israeli society at large, it is easy for me the dropping my SJW usual self to a more curious understanding self. Because I see that not everyone is a far right fanatic there. For us living in Europe, these days that is the image shown of Israel. Bibi and Ben Gvir.

Did you? Is it good? I am watching the guy. I got some orange vibes, but did not see enough.

Is he legit? I saw his channel and half the videos are him shitting on Based Zeus. I got John Anthony vibes. You sure his stuff is good?

How many Israeli civilians have been killed in the West Bank by Palestinians in the last year? Because Western governments have a huge pro Israeli bias, for eg, they host war criminal Bibi in Congress. They tolerate Israeli crimes 100x more than Palestinian crimes. So if they recognize a Palestinian actor, it means they are legit. Issue is that Israel has been caught lying countless times, so they are not trustworthy actors. Its like a girl that has endless cases of cheating, telling you "Babe, I did not cheat". You will give her an insane benefit of a doubt. Hamas numbers have been verified in previous conflicts to be reasonable accurate according to the UN and other agencies, so I trust their numbers. Also I saw a lot of footage of that attack to show kids and men with civilian clothes, so i doubt most were Hamas.

Sorry but I did not understand it. You said they launch rockets towards Israel but as far as I know, it is Hamas that does so. Could you please elaborate? I doubt the UK would put an ambassador of the PLO in their country and recognize him if they were bad. I do not see Hamas have this treatment for example.

Yes he is softer than those 2, but that is a very low bar to hold. I have seen a lot of his interviews, both old and new and although he is very charismatic and has funny rants, I notice he is fundamentalist. Basically, he was pro annexing West Bank and in interviews gave arguments related to the Bible. That is enough to be labelled a fundamentalist. Also he keeps pushing for war against Iran and Hezbullah. Which is why I called him warmonger.

@Leo Gura By the way, are you back on Youtube?

I agree guys with you. Just wrote here what others told me.

I dont think most people care about democracy that much. They want a good economy, safety, no wars and no mass migration. Your average Trump supporter is willing to sacrifice some democracy if it means he will get the things above. That is why people vote Trump. Trust me, I do not like Trump but I have spoken with plenty of smart educated people that like Trump (not Americans even). They see in Trump someone that will end mass illegal migration, reduce inflation and living costs and end wars. That is what makes him popular. His policies appeal to your average Joe in the USA. They do not care if he appoints his friends or steals some funds as long as people get what they want. Truth is democracy and corruption are irrelevant to people as long as they get what they want. Which is why Qatar, UAE etc have tons of Americans and Europeans living in them even though they are half authoritarian. These things matter once you reach Green. Most Americans are not green. Hence they can be easily made to vote for you if you promise them what Trump does.

PLO seems moderate and willing to negotiate. They are not a terrorist organization and have ambassadors in Western countries. How many Israeli soldiers have went to jail for war crimes against Palestinians? In this war there are hundreds of incidents of war crimes reported. Not to mention endless cases of torture and rape in Israeli prisons. Lets not act like Israel holds their soldiers any more accountable than Palestine does. They also want to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Do not ignore that. Please stop sending that fundamentalist warmongering genocidal monster called Naftali Bennet. All he does is make Israeli society look bad and fundamentalist. Some of the other posts were quite nice, thank you for sharing them.

Why basically all of the world agrees that there are 2 genders. Male and women. Males have XY chromosomes and women have XX chromosomes. How did this line of thought win the entire world so well? I have not seen the whole world agreeing on anything, why this?

Why are you quoting me on this? Bobby is the one not agreeing to that. Depends what you mean developed. Economy, education, infrastructure, institutions etc it is indeed. I was talking strictly moral development of the current far right Israeli politicans and far right religious extremists. Do not make a strawman that we are saying "All Israelis are bad".

So the Israeli governement is not orange, which is the main topic of discussion here with Leo. Israel is ruled by the far right currently. There was this ex prime minister which you send, for example that denounced the incident is not in any position of power. I am not saying there are no orange or even Green Israelis. But the people in power are below Orange. I am comparing governments here. But endorsing and pushing for rape and torture of prisoners to me seems more like red behavior than Blue. So elements there are between Red and Blue, not pure Blue.

Was it systematic in America? Were there debates on live TV and in congress about whether it is ok to torture and rape people in American prisons in Iraq? Because in Israel you had ministers and politicans say that it is ok to rape Palestinians in prisons. As far as I know, America covered it up and apologized when it became public. Israel thinks it is moral and ok to do. I doubt America had this going on, although I was too young back then to know anything. You also had catholic priests abuse childreen but you never had the catholic church openly discuss whether it is ok for catholic priests to sexually abuse kids. Israeli lawmaker defends alleged rape of Hamas prisoner as far-right protesters rage over IDF troops' detention - CBS News ‘Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape (msn.com) Israel’s Torture & Rape of Palestinian Prisoners Defended by Knesset Members, Far-Right Mobs | Democracy Now! And the case where 10 soldiers were detained they were now released and they roam free. In an orange society they would be locked for a criminal offense. I do not see Russians being raped, tortured, starved in Ukranian prisons systemically and massively , so this type of treatment is not "normal". Even though Russia has done to Ukraine 1000x worse than Hamas ever did to Israel. Majority of Palestinians in Israeli prisons suffer torture. Childreen too. If this is orange behavior, then I gave orange too much credit. PS: My main criticism here is on the far right Israelis, I have seen comments from more moderate Israelis condemn the incident.

Fair, noted. I feel like when it comes to this war, some of us here are more informed about all the atrocities that Israel has done which is why we struggle to put them anything above Blue. For example do you know there is widespread rape, torture of Palestinians in Isareli prisons? There are countless clips of Israeli soldiers mocking the destruction in Gaza. Endless online comments of Israelis wishing for more deaths of Palestinians and saying nobody in Gaza is innocent. Tons of genocidal comments from Israeli top politicans. When you see all this, it is hard to feel this is a morally developed society. It is not just that they bomb Gaza. They snipe kids, intentionally bomb civilians, rape and torture prisoners, celebrate deaths of Palestinians at large, engineer a famine, etc etc. Just "not nuking gaza" is not enough to call a country "developed". Russia has not nuked Ukraine. What suprised me about Hamas, is that they did not really abuse their hostages. I saw interviews with them, even the 4 rescued ones and their biggest issue was boredom and fear of being bombed by Israel. I would except them to be like the Ukranian prisoners when Russia exchanges them. Half starved, bruised, so in horrible condition. But they seemed totally fine. That act made me somewhat questioned Hamas development. A true red organization would give in on the temptation to rip them apart limb from limb given the carnage Israel has unleashed on Gaza.

Keep in mind, development is not just how you treat other countries but also how you treat your own people. India had a ruthless cast system which prohibited any upward mobility which still exists even today in a low degree. The West created the first human rights bills, ended slavery and overall had the most equal and democratic structures for the time. So in that sense they were indeed more developed. Issue is that the West had a pretty small circle of concern. Racism was their biggest issue. It is kind of how the Nazis treated their own people much better than the Soviets, but the Nazis were much more inhumane to other countries than the Soviets were. So the question is, who is indeed more developed?

What advice do you have for a proper green to go to yellow? It is almost impossible to meet yellow people. Except books and the channels you have suggested, any other way? Green to Yellow is a huge gap after all. Especially on an emotional level. We all here know about developmental stages etc, but emotionally we feel social justice like. How do you transcend that? I am personally struggling with it.

Yeah I get you. Social justice warriors do not consider that as important as being kind, caring , fair, honest etc. Nazi Germany was pretty organized and had clear structures. Yet green people will consider it less developed than African tribes because of their inhumane actions. I am not taking sides here, just reporting.

I would say the West is morally more developed than the Middle East for sure. But they seem to be massive hypocrites which pisses off a lot of people. For some reason, people respect and appreciate more an honest bully like Putin than a lying, deceptive, hypocritcal partial bully like the USA. The reason I do not know personally, just reporting it here. If someone knows why, feel free to let us. I am curious haha.

I think social justice warriors in this forum have a different view of what they call "development". We usually talk about moral development when we say a country is better or not. To dominate, bully, conquer, etc you need technological development. For example the Europeans were not morally more development than the Incas, but they had better technology. Which is why they wiped them out. Same with Homo Sapiens wiping out the Neanderthals. Survival skills is 1 thing. Moral development is another.

@Leo Gura Leo, the issue here is that in every society you have extremists and moderates. In Israel moderates would be people like Benny Gantz and extremists people like Ben Gvir. In Palestine, moderates are the PLO and extremists would be Hamas or the Islamic Jihad. When you create suffering, oppression etc for a group of people, it creates the conditions for extremists to take over and become the most popular. The whole reason Nazis took over Germany was because of the 1929 crisis and the Versaille Treaty. What Israel does to Palestine and especially Gaza (no Hamas in West Bank), is create the conditions for the radicals to rise up and become popular. If Israel would cease this oppression and occupation, then Hamas would become less attractive. Maybe the top leadership will exist, the ideology will exist, but they will find it much harder to recruit soldiers. The ideology would slowly die since the conditions that keep it strong are no longer there. Radicalism is a byproduct of certain harsh survival conditions, if those conditions are changed, the radicalism will die out. For example the West Bank which is less oppressed, is ruled by the PLO. PLO I would put at mostly Blue, they cooperate with Israel and are not genocidal like Hamas. Why so? Because West Bank is not as oppressed nor poor as Gaza. Now, regarding military, perhaps they can at first have a state with no strong military in a transition period to eliminate teh chances of radicals hijacking it. As long as Israel cannot bully them by illegally taking their land, blockading them, bombing them at will, kidnapping people at night etc. This is what causes the oppression and suffering and hatred of Palestinians towards Israelis. If they had a proper state, IDF could not enter their homes at will, demolish them and arrest people who resisted it and put them on a military trial without charges. This would be a start. What do you think?

To elaborate, they were doing an ethnic cleansing in Kosovo which could have easily lead to genocide. 750.000 Kosovo refugees went to my country until the war was over. 10.000 civilians killed and over 20.000 women raped. So Serbia bombing was not out of the blue, it was because of their horrible policies. @Bobby_2021 I wish they also had intervened in Rwanda in 1994. Sometimes military intervations are a good thing. When a minority is oppressed by a powerful majority, sometimes interventions can be good. If NATO decided to attack Israel to end the Gaza war (it will not happen, just hypothetically) , I would endorse that as well. Issue with Iraq or Afghanistan is that that was not the case. At least, as far as I know.