Karmadhi

Israeli and American mainstream propaganda make Hamas seem like the face of Palestine I feel Leo has somewhat fallen for that too

Is there Hamas in the West Bank? Where? I have not seen it Or is only Gaza Palestine according to you? Also if Israel does not care about morals, why are they not sanctioned? You keep avoiding this question According to you just because Israel lost 1000 people they can do genocide and the world should just let it happen and be like "well they were attacked so they gotta do what they gotta do"

I do not think so, a better analogy would be the slave revolts where slaves killed their owners indiscrimiantely Or the Warsaw Uprising during WW2 in 1944

If they had been occupied by decades from Russia brutally, they could have perhaps No reason for Ukraine to declare war to Russia randomly and do such an act They are an independent state I will say it a third time, why Israeli war crimes are not sanctioned while Russian war crimes are?

The issue to me with @Leo Gura s argument is that he acts as if that region is an isolated island and there is no rest of the world I do agree that Israel may feel they need to overeact given their situation Fine But the rest of the world should act up if they go too far, sanction them and cut ties They did that with Russia when it invaded Ukraine Why Israel gets special treatment? That is the core issue here If you want to be 100% pragmatic and ignore all laws, it is much more hurtful to sanction Russia than Israel, given how important Russian resources are Sanctioning Russia will hurt economies much more than Israel who is much less useful They are useful, but way less than Russia However, they are not sanctioned while Russia is Even from a non-moralistic purely pragmatic pov it makes no sense

The funny part is that when people use the same logic about Ukraine and the West provoking Russia, they are called pro Russian and say it is not fair, Russia has no right to over react, lets sanction Russia etc Israel will be shameless but the issue is them not being punished for it Like Russia shameless over-reaction was punished Why is Russia sanctioned for war crimes and Israel is not?

When it comes to Israel it is the opposite I view them as less developed than you do Just saying

You are basically describing Hamas which is a minority of Palestinians Majority of Palestinians live under PLO, which is none of those things It is a Stage Blue nationalist movement that is not suicidal Gaza is not Palestine Palestine is Gaza plus West Bank Putting them on red/purple is your opinion, I think they are mostly Blue with some Red when it comes to Hamas These are not exact math I think we fundamentally disagree on the level of development of Palestinian society If you view Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank as overwhealmingly Stage Red, then all your points stand If you view them mostly Blue like I do then they do not stand "Meanwhile you have a fantasy of peaceful Palestinians. Because the liberal minds projects itself onto them." I simply view them as more developed than you do which is why I believe them to be sane enough not to do a suicidal attack once they get a proper state If Palestine was ONLY Gaza then I would consider your point a lot more But I have not seen anything from West Bank to show me they are suicidal Also I do not view them as peaceful. Just not suicidal I dont expect them to allow Israelis to travel or work in the new Palestinian state if they get one. Also I am indeed liberal but not libtard. I come off as somewhat too left here but in real life in other topics I am more reasonable that I may appear here Sorry for that

You can have that area with an UN military base or Gulf country army base to keep Palestinians from using it. Or it can be some sort of border zone. You have such situations in other countries and it has worked out

And why do you assume they will continue being suicidal? You are assuming as well as I am. The majority of Palestinians live in the West Bank under the PLO which is not suicidal. What I believe that new state will be, is another Jordan. Jordan already has like half of the population as Palestinians. Israeli leadership funded Hamas to weaken the more moderate Palestinian entities. They intentionally kept Palestinians ruled by the most radical factions to show they are too primitive to reason with. They did not act in good faith. Netanyahu has been caught on tape admitting this. By not giving Palestine a state they will keep getting attacked. It is not like the status quo is working great for them

An agreement can include a de-militarized zone on the most fragile location that could indeed pose such a threat There are many ways to make it work if Israel really wants The reason they do not want is because they want all of Judea and Samaria cuz God gave it to them Anything else is lame excuses

I explained it clearly that the reason it was that they saw no hope, no state, a brutal siege and no prospects Desperate people are suicidal If Palestinians get a state, they will stop being suicidal since there will be hope It is like you ignore people in Gaza had no state and were under a siege when they decided to do a suicidal attack October 7th is a very bad example of what would Palestinians do if they had a state since Gaza was the furthest thing from a state.

Why would Palestinians attack Israel and risk suicide if they get their country? The reason they do terrorism to begin with, is the brutal occupation and medievil siege that Israel has placed on them If they have a legit state of their own with full autonomy, the suicidal desire will be removed People are suicidal when they see no other alternative It is not "typical leftist fashion" it is simple logic that you can see in other conflicts where coerced groups feel they have no other choice but do terrorism Northen Ireland situation was also doing terrorism until the situation got resolved Now it is no longer the case I notice you view Palestinians as suicidal terrorist which is the way American medias tries to frame them In reality majority are very reasonable people and only resort to terrorism when everything else has failed If they have their own state, there will no longer be such need to attack. Also, lets just exercise the idea that Palestine will still attack. Is not that already happening? Do you really think a weak Palestinian state with gdp smaller than jordan will magically become an existencial threat to Israel? I would argue the current set up is more dangerous for Israel than a Palestinian state More Israelis have died by Palestinian attacks than by Lebanese army for example which is a state (including Hezbollah) Some food for though

Far left and far right are not the majority of the population Majority supports a two state The only core difference between the left and right on this is that the left wants Israel to face consequences for its actions instead of just creating a state for Palestine So create a State+ war crime investigations + potential sanctions Instead of just create a State The 1 state solution which is totally unrealistic imo is not as supported as Instagram or Tik Tok may make it appear "Free Palestine" to me is not 1 state but just to end the occupation and give Palestinians their own state

That is Israeli propaganda, I am suprised you actually believe it The reason Palestinians attack Israel is because they do not have a state and not via versa And Gaza was not a state, it was a lame excuse for a state which did not cool down the hot blood. When a proper state gets created it will chill out the majority of the Palestinian population and the radical minority will be eventually removed from power by internal pressure. You have said yourself Israelis have never negotiated in good faith when it comes to this issue.

Yet according to a poll you sent yourself, a third of Israelis want him to keep his job Any normal government would have discharged him a long time ago and if they did not, internal pressure from the population would have How come there are no massive protests against him? He is totally insane, not just "right wing".

There is a global overall consensus the best solution is a two state solution. All non-radical global actors agree with it. It is not complicated. Also accountability for Israel crimes just like Russia has faced accountability No reason not to sanction Israel, they are not too cool for school

We can agree on that

I honestly do not understand how an average American citizen can be against DSA Like, I am sure they got some insane positions but overall they seem much more evolved than republicans or establishment democrats Also their policies actually do benefit the ordinary American Cheaper or free Healthcare, cheaper education, higher wages, lower costs etc It is very self-serving to support them, yet they prefer billionare obsessed sell-outs like Trump Can someone from USA explain this to me? Why would anyone vote for Cuomo over Mandani? Or not vote for Abdul but vote for that woman (cant remember her name) I am not even talking about Israel and Palestine I notice a lot of people in USA are obsessed with that topic I am talking about pragmatism, about what actually benefits you as an ordinary American My European mind glitches

I do not agree with the premise of this thread It is not that society hates ugly people It is just that ugly people do not have the same innate advantages that beautiful people do They need to compensate more as they are lacking in that value providing aspect of themselves However, saying "hate" is a big word Also, I think there is a gender component I feel men tend to be tolerated more for not being beautiful compared to women This depends a bit on the country, usually on more traditional societies that is the case

As a fellow liberal I will do my best to explain my interpretation Liberals in general tend to support oppressed or marginalized groups of people That is their default software Also, most liberals tend to be in Western countries since those countries are Stage Green However, in Western countries, islam and muslims have a very bad reputation There is a lot of prejudice, xenophobia and racism towards them Since muslims are usually arab and Western European is mostly white and Christian, these groups tend to be more marginalized Recent terrorist attacks have not helped the situation and the far right tends to attack them a lot Since in the liberal mind, oppressed people are not bad but can be even good, islam=good or at least not bad Lastly, some hardcore liberals tend to dislike anything "white" or "european", it is toxic self guilt and self hatred Since islam is seen as a foreigner thing, it is by default good since what is western=bad This is the most extreme cases, usually it is more related to the oppression topic I explained earlier Hope it helps

When I watch proper Zionist podcasts or videos I notice an insane victim mindset from them Basically the idea that the world is out to get them and they are hated regardless of what they do They cannot understand that the hate they get is usually in relation to the bad things they do Also, they are insanely and i mean insanely Islamophobic The irony is that if someone spoke about Judaism the same way as they speak about Islam they would be rightfully called a Nazi by them

Yes and they are way more radical than Mandani, Bernie or AOC Biden is centrist Mandani, Bernie etc is normal left Hasan is far left/hardcore/extreme left Normal left is better than centrist or far left That is how I see it

That is true, I was referring to 1 version of the toxic far left perhaps Regarldess, my long response regarding "what is far left is relative based on where you are living" still stands I think it would be helpful if you studied European politics and see what a true far hardcore left can be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_France_Insoumise Left to far left in France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Linke Far left in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_Party_of_Belgium Far left in Belgium This is what I consider to be far left, so when I hear than Mandani or myself are far left I find it a bit puzzling The left is not just foreign policy, it is also economy, social issues, redistribution of income, affordability of basic services etc

I think we have different views of what a "hardcore leftie" is since we live in different parts of the world In USA probably I am indeed a "hardcore leftie", however in Europe where i live I am not Neither is Mandani. He is probably considered center to center left in much of Europe I invite you to read about far left parties in Western Europe to see how far it can go Also, I am much more realist when it comes to actual solutions to problem than you might think It is just that when I see grave injustice I emotioanlly lash out when we are not in "problem solving mode" For example when it comes to Ukraine I am much more realistic than Destiny who wants Ukraine to fight forever to get territory back they simply are not powerful enough to take On Ukraine he suddendly becomes like a hardcore Pro Pali saying Ukraine got fucked so it would be wrong if they submit in any way. Yet they will realistically because they are simply outmatched Also on Palestine I am pro two state, not the 1 state madness hardcore leftiest say Neither do I want Israel to be destroyed as far leftiest say