Karmadhi

Then why Trump and Vance got pissed about it? Also how come the left wing Israelis support annexation which is basically illegal? I thought they were moderate two state solution people So even if Bibi leaves the overall policy wont change much

Why Israel is not making peace even though the hostages are released?

Hello I wanted to discuss something I have been thinking about and that is the higher standard people expect Russia to have compared to the USA What do I mean by that? It is two fold First standard: Basically when Russia illegally invades a soverign country, it is somehow worse than when USA does it The invasion of Iraq by the USA was not only illegal, it also was built on totally false pretexes Yet, nothing really happened to the USA. They continued as usual. Meanwhile Russia was banend from SWIFT, sanctioned like hell, banned from Fifa, from Olympics etc It seems like an illegal invasion of a soverign country is worse when Russia does it Second standard: It is pretty clear if you are outside the Western/NATO bubble that NATO is viewed by Russia as a threat Russia sees how NATO bombed Libya totally illegally, not to mention Iraq as well Therefore to them NATO is not a defensive alliance all the time How come it is expected for Russia to allow their biggest neighboor and cultural ally, Ukraine to join this alliance? Let us revese the roles What if there was an anti American alliance which had engaged in acts of illegal aggression before and Mexico was considering joining it Or Canada Would USA not do anything? Last time this happened it was with Cuba in 1961, a much smaller country that does not share a land border with USA USA literally invaded Cuba, just like Russia did to Ukraine. The invasion failed and eventually was cut off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion Therefore, USA has a track record of invading neighboors which become allies of their enemies Why is it different when Russia does the same? Note, I do support Ukraine and I do not support Russia. They were clearly in the wrong here The point of the thread is not that Russia isnt bad, but it is that USA is just as bad, yet it is not considered as such It has not faced any real consequence like Russia did and that shows that international law does not exist and that might is right What do you guys think?

Hello everyone In the light of the captives being released from both sides, I wanted to discuss a bit about something I have noticed and also a lot of people are talking about That is the state of the captives that Hamas is releasing compared to the state of Palestinian captives that Israel is releasing It seems to me from the footage I have seen that the live captives that Hamas is releasing, including those of previous exchanges are in much better shape overall (no signs of physical abuse which remains in the body after torture) Now you can argue "they are smiling and waving because Hamas told them so". Sure, I am not talking about that. I am talking about the physical state of their bodies which you cannot hide. They seem pretty well fed, good hair and beard and seem pretty ok overall I think there was 1 exception, the guy who was in a picture digging his own grave that was released some months ago. That was a pretty good case of someone who has been starved and abused. But it is 1 case. Meanwhile the Palestinian ones, many of them have lost a ton of weight, have either shaved head or very messy hair/beard and some looked downright scared and traumatized Not to mention many have a lot of bruises and wounds from beatings and torture. A case I read was that one was told "your whole family died in Gaza" even though it was not true as a means to torture him and when he was released and met them he was shocked in disbelief. Others legit look traumized for life and their physical state is horrible (tons of weight lost or a lot of bruises). There were cases where they had to had limbs amputations from being chained for too long. It is quite similar to the awful state of Ukranian POWs that Russia releases in prisoner exchanges that look like they have been starved, abused and beaten. It is 1 way, I have not seen Russian POWs that Ukraine releases be in such a state. They get treated way better (I think). Same logic here. Now, I am not here to justify taking captives in the first place Both Israel and Hamas have taken captives illegally and that is awful to do, regardless of how they are treated I am not here saying Hamas is not bad for taking captives. I am happy they are being released. But I just wanted to pinpoint this thing a lot of people have talked about recently (and in previous releases for that matter) Since Israel is according to people "Western liberal democracy", I think they are not supposed to torture and misstreat people in jails even if they have committed crimes. I am not even talking about people who have been arbitrary imprisoned like doctors in Gaza for eg. But I am sure in USA for example or Europe they do not torture people accussed of terrorism or school shooters in jails What do you guys think? Is there something deeper here that we are not noticing?

It shows the low moral development of Israeli army and leadership I am not saying all are like that but the people in power tend to have a tribal type mindset and very low moral development The law of jungle type of mindset where "you kill 1 of us, we wipe you out" which is basically 10th century morality. In 21st century we have proportionality which Israel does not care about A moral country would stop once the death toll exceeded 10.000 as it is too brutal to keep going and try another method Like ending the occupation? It never crossed their minds And close to 30.000 had died until April 2024 Fundamentally Israel has a bully mindset where they over react and basically have a jungle mindset of the type "you take my finger, I take half your body back". I doubt any advanced country would over react like that if they lost 800 civilians of theirs.

Israel has always used torture and ill treatment, ever since it has been a state. I have read tons of examples even before the 2023 conflict It is a state policy in Israel (although not admitted or codified) and it happens within Israel territories And it happens in the thousnads of cases Tell me, has UK tortured thousands of terrorist suspects within British soil? Did it do it to IRA members which were the equivalent of Hamas or Fatah for the UK If yes, was it in the thousands of cases, including childreen and common? Not a few isolated incidnets which happen everywhere. Did people loose limbs from these tortures? That is the equivalence of what we are talking here

Ukraine wants their whole land back including Crimea. They are not willing to compromise on any land. Ukraine meaning the government I think most Ukranian people are willing to compromise Talk Tv hosts or J-Tv type of channels

Dont you think dating was easier in our parents generation (meaning from 50s until 90s)? Much lower divorce rate, way less frustrated men and women and overall happier times? I am not blaming it on women per say but overall it seemed healthier and happier.

Saying 50 of them must die for 1 of us either shows deep superior complex or insanely low moral development. I do not consider the situation before as peace. Israel caused the attack because of their inhumane policies. I blame Israel as much as Hamas on this. Tons of senior figures in Israel have said it. And they have made it happen too. Most of the Nazi elite was on board with the Holocaust. There were hundreds of people who actively took part in it. Still, I have compared the situation with Palestine more to the Nazi treatment of the USSR than that of the Jews.

Funny because many Israelis dont see it that way I am pretty sure Ukraine can negotiate a deal where Russia gets the 4 oblasts and Crimea and Ukraine stays neutral but gets security guarantees So they dont loose more land in the future and Russia gets those 4 provinces and no more Ukraine in NATO It is the best deal they can realistically get It has been 2 years Russia just slowly advances, Ukraine has not gained anything We are in a war where 1 side is on life support and the other is not.

@BlueOak Why doesnt Ukraine do a peace deal like Gaza did instead of fighting still? I have seen in surveys that majority of Ukranians want to settle this in the negotiating table https://news.gallup.com/poll/693203/ukrainian-support-war-effort-collapses.aspx https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/how-many-ukrainians-support-compromise-with-1756651938.html So why not try to make peace? Of course they would have to make concessions but given their bad situation at the moment, it does not seem unreasonable What do you think? How much longer can Ukraine keep this up when they are running out of men and even many parties in Europe and USA are starting to get war fatigue Not to mention for Russia this is now a huge sunk cost so they will go all in no matter what Trump managed to get the war in Gaza to end, maybe he can do same for Ukraine

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-died-a-thousand-times-freed-palestinian-detainees-describe-horrific-torture/ Why are Israelis so inumane It baffles me everyday It seems like collective insanity

Most Israelis said they were being tortured and starved and everything. They already had that idea in their mind. The state of the hostages just made those claims seem false. Then why people consider it worse when a democracy is attacked? Like people like Piers Morgan say "Ukraine a democratic country". Ok How hard is it not to torture and beat up prisoners? There have been many terrorist attacks in the UK. Did they torture and starve the suspects for these attacks?

@Breakingthewall I think fundamentally because Bosnians have a state and Palestinians do not That is the fundamental difference They feel occupied and have been oppressed for decades In Bosnia they were treated ok under Yugoslavia and then there was a genocide which lasted for a few years. Palestinians have legit been born and raised under brutal occupation and they do not even have a land to go back to I think if they got a proper state, their extremism would go away with time.

I mean technically they can abuse them and beat them and they would still be equally valuable as long as they are alive and functioning. So I do not get the argument here But that is not how a democracy is supposed to act. A democracy like the UK where you live do not torture people like that even if they are suspected of terrorism. This is not democratic behavior. Not to mention it is endless cases, not a few incidents but systemic policy. To be fair I have not seen Russia treat them any better with time. They always look awful state to me the Ukranian POWs. It is very inhumane what Russia does to them. Makes sense. I agree but western style democracies are supposed to act differently not law of jungle. Otherwise, why do we see them as more "humane" forms of governance.

What do you think about this? Israeli leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/17/israeli-general-aharon-haliva-palestinians-7-october-gaza German leadership: "The number of hostages to be shot was calculated as a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe". Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kragujevac_massacre

That is quite commendable to say it, most would be in denial I honestly do not think top American military leaders said anything remote to this after 9/11. It is one thing to say "we must do what we must do" but to give quotas is downright disgusting. Not to mention 1 to 50 is crazy high. It seems like a thirst for revenge which is very hard to quencht Thank you, now that this whole madness is hopefully over these threads will calm down I really enjoyed looking briefly into your analysis of Israeli political parties in your other post Will read it in detail later And congratulations on the hostages being released I am happy about that

Thank you so much Nivsch for posting this I am quite interested to reading about the different parties and your spiral interpretation is quite useful since you cannot find such a thing in other places

What do you think about this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/17/israeli-general-aharon-haliva-palestinians-7-october-gaza It shocks how me this is not world headlines

I find the Israeli right wing attitude towards Palestine more similar to that the Nazis had towards Slavs in the USSR than what the Nazis had towards Jews As critical as i am of Israel I feel like their entire attitude is more similar to how Nazis behaved in USSR, not how they behaved in the Holocaust. Jews were downright wiped out, no questions asked. Slavs it was about taking land, a land that the Nazis felt entitled to, keeping some Slavs around and forcing the rest to flee and kill many in the process. A scary comparison I found Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/17/israeli-general-aharon-haliva-palestinians-7-october-gaza Nazi Germany in the Eastern Front: "The number of hostages to be shot was calculated based on a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe"

International law is universal All countries are in UN If UN says you are breaking law, you stop it

Their interest need to be within international law. The more a country disregards international law the worse they are in my eyes. This is me judging countries foreign policies. I was not aware of it. I consider invasion taking considerate parts of land. But if China is taking whole islands I will investigate and correct myself.

Ok clear, I miss understood you I do not think anyone here supports Russia invading Ukraine. At most they blame both the West and Russia about it. But I have not seen anyone here actually support the invasion. It is general sentiment that it was wrong. Even Russian apologiest say that it was wrong.

Those were indeed wrong but were done many decades ago. I usually refer to after 1990s, because beforehand I can also say USA annexing Hawaii for example but I am not going that further back. Until 1990s there was still a law of the jungle in a way so I do not use it as a reference point. If they invade Taiwan I would indeed have huge issues with it but so far it has not happened What is your point? When did I defend China? I started this saying Russia got punished more than other countries for doing a similar thing and now you are telling me that China is getting away with bad things. You are simply proving my point more. I do not like China nor support it. I prefer Europe over China any day of the year.

Where did you get this from? Russia has annexed 20% of Ukraine for over 2 years now and nothing close to that has happened I think the reason people do not seem to see it as a bad thing when Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, is because in their mind Eastern Ukraine is mostly Russians and therefore it is fine if Russia gets it. I am sure they would have major issue if they took parts of Poland for example where there are no Russians. Note: I am just explaining their though process, it is not what I think. I do not support annexations in general.