Mesopotamian

We are mostly arguing IMO about categorizing thoughts, and people, but to what degree the Islam should be different to be categorized as a completely new separate religion or dogma? I mean if we argue like this, maybe we can say that Muslims are neo-Christians, I mean they do believe in Jesus as a prophet too at least, but not a God or a son of God. Muslims themselves say they are one of the three Heavenly, or divine inspired true religions. If we can establish what's the purpose of our process of categorization, maybe we can better reach to an agreement. Why do some people desperately want to prove that Islam evolves, and that the more peaceful variation can represent Islam better than Wahabisim? Isn't that also a biased way to view things? Yes everything changes as time passes, but what about the rate of that change, and what about if there are certain paradigms that appear to be changing but in fact they are not, while some core concept within it remains untouched?

I mean he had a shadow as his wish to choose a wife himself was oppressed when Khadija chose to have him as a husband. So he went on a marriage spree, he even got the 13 years old or 9 depending on the source (Aisha).

She was 25 years older than him, he probably got her terminated in order to be able to stick his penis inside a younger pussy. He has done much travel, so he might be familiar with Christian news, for sure he faced the bible at some points, cuz he devices many verse about it, and about virgin marry, and Jesus, I objected about the part that his in-law has told him everything, cause usually people might say that the same guy was responsible to write the Quran and make Muhammed memorize it.

Leo does agree with you when he closed that thread. I am not aware, of that, but I think I am being perverted as a fundamentalist and trying to spread dogma. I didn't intend that at all. I'll have you know and everybody that I have ran from ISIS twice, and lived in a city that they were very active, even had close personal encounters with some of them. I think that my audience should be more open-minded, cuz I think you are color-blind towards Islam. You have absolutely no idea of what it is. Gosh you have no idea about what's like to live in a less-developed country on the spiral spectrum, all you have is mere theories, again, another situation where you confuse the territory with the map. Last time is when you tried to fit my country 'Iraq" into the category of countries, and you neglect the fact that countries actually only be functional as a part of the world system of stat at only stage-orange and above. Stage blue country like Iran will have to disintegrate and re-invent itself in order to tend for state-orange values. When you don't acknowledge facts like these, you'll only create suffering. I will never be able to try that unless I break out from the situation imposed on me in Iraq.

For my 30+ years of life on this planet called earth, I've haven't heard about another source that gave Muhammed the Quran, but I can understand now the different states of minds, and while I haven't tried but Mofdafinil so far, I can understand that there are certain substance that can make you smarter and make angels whisper genius ideas in your ears, ideas that are never heard of before. Only then you understand that intelligence is a separate entity from you, the you who has lived all his life struggling, and when you take the pill, it is like there's someone else dictating new concepts in your ears. Now Muhammed was a merchant for many years and he worked for his first wife Khadiga in trade for like 20+ years, and only when he went to the cave, he started seeing things and angels, he returned back to his wife who interpreted that he was seeing as Angeles, and this is a proof that he was the new prophet. and to his horror, he bought into this explanation. I would speculate and say that Muhammed, when he was meditating in the cave, he also might had some substance, and then he understood the ideas that he was receiving text from God. Now People do wish that Islam is going to evolve, and this is very far from the truth. Sufisim is NOT ISLAM. Shiisim IS NOT ISLAM. In fact, Islam cannot evolved since it's founder is dead, and all the new interpretations are mere efforts to continue what Muhammed has left his followers. However, I do consider Suni Islam is the most close representation to the spirit of Islam as Muhammed envisioned it. I hold this opinion almost as a dogma, and not because I think it is 100%, but I am rather frustrated by people wishing that Islam is evolving, and they wish that more peaceful versions can represent the true spirit of Islam, and this is very far from the truth, this is a huge delusion. I imagine some people see a woman Imam, and she's doing goat yoga classes while reciting Quran, they'll be tempted to consider that she's practicing a new form of Islam (which is true to some sense) but also they would like to project and say that Islam is evolving. Islam cannot evolve, cuz there's always the Quran, a well-kept book, almost down to the letters that constitutes the words within it, and also a thousand+ years of Islamic scholars books around Islam, and the life of the prophet. Anyone can always go back to the purest form of Islam through reading into the above, and also there's an OK number of folks who were constantly devising new versions of Islam, but what they do doesn't negate, and can't negate in my opinion the truer form of Islam, Sunnah, Sunnis. The Sunni followers still constitutes the majority number of Muslims around the world, so please don't delude yourself and get a microscope and look at a tiny sample and take it as a sign that Islam has evolved, can evolve, or will evolve. Have a look at this ISIS man, he's destroying a statue in Mosul Museum, it is the same act that Muhammed did when he occupied Mecca! But then there are those who desperately want to believe that the bellow dancing Sufi men do represent Islam and the spirit of it best!

I didn't mean to say lucrative by the way, i meant ludicrous ---------- These are rumors, and he might received some knowledge, but the Quran itself, it is Muhammed ho devised it himself, he truly believed that someone is whispering it in his ears or an angel appears before him whom only him can see. Why do you have a problem with entertaining his claims? You're trying to recite the conspiracy theory widely available on mainstream. We here on Actualized.org are supposed to be better, at least you have to entertain that Muhammed was truthful in his experiences. Revelation stopped could be because he was troubled and wasn't able to get to the same mental state he used to access before his brother in law's death took place.

Thank you for helping my post to be on top! Can I get "You're welcome" please?

It is all him, no one has ever proved he borrowed the Quran from elsewhere. Maybe his brain was wired in certain way which enables him to feel possessed. Just take a pill of 100 mg of Modafinil, available in pharmacies, and you will have angels whispers stuff in your ears.

What happened has happened, Shiite should suck it up, also stage-green people who wish that Islam can be represented by many sects. I don't intend to be rude or disrespectful, but this is how I see it. You don't need to over-think it. The incidents on which Shiite base their arguments demonstrate clearly how the relatives of Muhammed are not meant to inherit his power, cuz when he died, they were busy with his body, while others are busy inheriting his power and continue the power structure going on which is the message of Islam. When you desperately try to make history fits your expectations, it sounds lucrative to me indeed. We have one of the most influential figures in the history of the world by far, inventing one of the most powerful dogmas, and history showed us that most powerful men are eligible to inherit his power (SUNNIS), and you guys are crying over why Shiite are also real Muslims? and in your hearts you wish that Sufis represent real Islam, such a huge delusion.

Thanks, but No, this man looks like a westernized person, he's the last person you need to watch in order to understand more about Islam.

I am trying my best with English a second language, and only introduced to something known as logical or reasonal thinking at age 33 of my life. Early Muslims do, and they memorized all his quotes, and all the Quran until the desperate need for copying through the means of writing presented itself. Exactly the opposite of that. Quran, and Hadith AKA 'Sunnah' , meaning Muhammed's Saying when he wasn't taking whatever weed and producing Quran verses, these are all Muhammed's words, came out of his mouth. They all have similar story for how they have been written, and in close times Gotta be so stupid not to see that. You CANNOT cherry pick and say that Quran is the book, and Muhammed's sayings or Hadith, in which Sunnis based their doctrine on in addition to Quran, you cannot take the Quran and try to find another new interpretation for it, while leaving the Hadith aside. Cuz usually this is how new sects are devised: Step 1: Take The Quran itself. Step 2: Neglect The Hadith, Step 3: Attach your own new interpretation to the Quran. Well What about Hadith? I mean isn't it what came from the Prophet's mouth? I simply and genuinely can't understand! "Real money" is a part of system. I Am not specifically referring to counterfeits here, but let's say any paper with the word 'money' written on it in a big font, and 'legal tender' in a small font, and numbers in the corners. I believe Quran and HAdith AKA Sunnah are one system. It is your choice to take Quran and recite it in a goat yoga class and invent a new sect. Is it going to be real for you? yes, but for me, and for those who can see this system, it is utter craziness.

@Gesundheit Hadith is like the epigenetic of the Quran, they way it should be interpreted and expressed. Shiite want to cancel all of that and keep power for themselves just because their ancestors are relatives of Muhammed. Also lets not forget that the Quran itself was invented as a pass to support Muhammed and enable him to be the prophet and the leader for Islamic nation, so it is all about Muhammed inedeed. The Hadith comes and support that and makes up for a perfect match. Maybe the Hadith was the words of Muhammed when he wasn't under whatever weed he was taking. Anyone can come and device a new Islam for stage-green to believe in and buy it, but the truth is that Quran, Hadith, Muhammed, they are all one, they cannot be divided and cherry-picked on. If you want to understand Islam, you need to take in the whole package as is, and put aside the BS of Shiite, Sufis (I hope this doesn't sounds like a bullet to your ego) .

There's another division of the Islam that's Hadith, or Sunnah, which is all other things that you've mentions that are not in the Quran. Google it.

I can't believe, you sort of like need them to adhere to today's standards? As I've listened to Sunni's defense, they said that writing wasn't a thing, and people were memorizing even the Quran. Some Hadith was written during Muhammed's time. I think you have to entertain the idea that writing wasn't a necessity perhaps? This is Sunni's claim. exactly, cuz islam is Muhammed's Sunnah, and Sunnis are practicing it the way its inventor has intended it to be practiced. Yep, stage-green thinking. They want to believe so desperately that Sufisim represent true Islam or a newer better version. This is absolutely absurd to me. I view my claim that True Islam is what goes according to Sunnah is as valid as your claim that Islam has developed and there's a rare sect bury themselves in the forest or underground can represent real, true Islam. Don't try to simplify the matter and bring your counter argument. You're arguing if I make a counterfeit currency and call it money, then it's going to be as real as "real money"? In the absolute sense it can, but in a specific context, you'll sound crazy.

@Gesundheit Shiite heritage is non-sense as I was talking with member @louhad . The Quran and Muhammed's life IS ONE, or ARE ONE. Sunnizim is a way to document and validate Muhammed's life, and it is sort of a scientific approach to try to extract more meaning from his life, cuz he's the founder of Islam, and then incorporate it with the Quran itself. You just cannot assume that Quran and Muhammed are two separate entities, if you do so, this way, anyone who has the Quran and who invents an interpretation for it is like he/she creating a new branch of Islam. It just doesn't make any sense to separate Quran from Sunnah, attach a new interpretation, and then say here's a new version of Islam. I mean on what basis you are basing this notion? In Christianity for example, we have Jesus who never dictate a book, and tens of bibles were written around his story, nothing solid, all loose stuff, but here we have a different kind of doctrine where it is only valid and called "Islam" when Quran is taken within the narrow variations of Sunnah, other than that is just not Islam, unless you decide it is. You get what I mean? I can get a Quran into a goat yoga class, and recite it while I am doing yoga and the goat on my back, and I call this a new version of Islam. But does this go with the well-documented life, acts and history of Islam's inventor Muhammed?

No you're not getting it. The book and Muhammed's life ARE ONE, or should I say IS ONE. You don't need to say the book can be interpreted through the reader's framework, this means that you throw Muhammed's life (The Sunni literature) in the trash! Can you at least entertain this idea I am telling you for a day before you reply here again?

Sunnah is the "snapshot" of Muhammed's life. It makes sense that combining Quran with Muhammed's own personal life, the founder and probably the inventor of Islam, will make this version more true than id you say combine a Sufi's life with the Quran's teaching. Remember, Quran and Muhammed is one, cuz litteraly the Quran came from Muhammed's own mind, and dictated through his own mouth cavity, using his own vocal chords. In theory, everyone can has his own interpretation Quran, but then if you do so, you're implying that Quran and Muhammed are seperate, are you trying to say that Quran is from God herself? The moral of the story, DO NOT make a new duality by claiming that Quran and Muhammed's life (AKA Prophet's Sunnah) are separate, cuz it is as clear as F*** probably that only during this approach you are able to say there are other also true and valid versions of Islam. Shiite are only valid if: Step one: Seperate Quran from Sunnah. Step two: Claiming that every interpretation of the book can be valid. Again: Truth is that Quran and Sunnah (Prophet's life) ARE ONE. They complete each other, and they are litteraly about the life and what came out of the mouth of the same person, Muhammed. I believe I am hereby challenging you with valid arguments here, so show me your mental muscles, HABIBI

I think there's a difference. Circling of the Ka'ba by Sunnis is nothing like Shitte's blood ralies. The Ka'ba is just a place to practice these rituals, and the rituals seem to be civilized in its nature even with geometric shapes, like the cube, and the circles around it, and don't forget, these are part of the core of the doctrine itself. On the other hand, we have Shitt's blood rallies, they are not a part of the doctrine of Islam, but alien practices, and just the idea of self-torture is regressed and retarded, or in our language (lower on the stages), but somehow, people like yourself would like to see it similar to Sunnis. Sunnis is the only pure Islam by the way. it is NOT a division of Islam, but Sunni doctrine is all about being as accurate as possible to how Muhammed wanted the Islam to be, it is more of a "scientific approach" to achieve the purest form of Islam as intended to be practiced by its founder. Anything rather than that is a diversion and a hoax. How can anybody gives themselves a right to say what, while ignoring what in our hand of heritage by thousands of Muslim scholars that spans over a millennia about the subject ! You ever bothered to read the Sunni heritage? hundreds or even thousands of books that try to keep Islam pure using a scientific based approach. (If Leo considers shamons of 40000 years back as doing a form of science, the Sunnis also have done a great deal of science to define what Islam is and what it isn't)

I've lived among Sunnis for most of my life, like 99.8% of my life probably. I know how Islam works, and Muhammed has set a rigors rules to sort of define the spirit of Islam. Had Muhammed been here, he would have Sufis for example executed, the same Sufis you consider them now a part of the developed Islam, they are NOT. It is just insulting that a western guy like yourself sir is trying to define what Islam is and isn't, probably you haven't even lived among Muslims before. You can't be further than the truth here. When it comes to Islam, well it qualifies that Today's Muslims do live, and exactly have same mindset as Muslims from the time of Muhammed's era. Your comparison to today's Christians is baseless in my opinion. Islam is more strong of a dogma, and its instructions as per how a Muslim should live and behave are well-kept accurately. The way a Muslim's body is supposed to move during daily 5 times prayers are for example described thoroughly, and had been documented and followed in an accurate way for the past 1000+ years or so. A similar approach is applies to each and every aspect of a Muslim's. Through thousands of Muslim scholars documenting the way a Muslim should be, and behave, I think today's Muslim lives a life that's an accurate representation of a Muslim who was living during the inception of Islam. Shiite are a diversion of that, they are not Muslims. They are more like Kafirs, or infidels according to the recorded Sunni doctrine. In fact, Sunni is not a division of Islam, Sunnah (the source of the name) means something like "the true way that Muhammed practiced ISlam, through is accurately recorded quotes and stories). Sunnis do a form of science to prove the validity of Muhammed's life stores, and try to reproduce as much accurate set of guidelines similar to how Muhammed lived his life, and Muhammed's vision of how a Muslim should lead his/her life. Again Shiite are a diversion of that, they do not accept Sunni doctrine, which is as I said, the most accurate, and"scientifically based" method of practicing Islam the way its founder intended it to be practiced. Islam is all about order, while in Christianity, the interpretation has been left open as there's a decentralization of power and authority, i mean for God's sake, they have 12 disciples ! This will greatly diminish any chance to establish an order in a Christian's life, thus you see the transformation. Don't fall in the trap of generalizing. In Islam there's one prophet, once source for a Muslim's lifestyle, and everything about Muhammed's life is recorded accurately, I won't exaggerate if I said even the way he pisses or shit has been recorded, and Muslims follow that to the point. Just have a look on this, it is a scientific research by Dr. Damanhuri !! About the stories of Muhammed's style in peeing! an exciting subject

@louhad this is the developed community of Iran perhaps? Gen. Suleimani and the Supreme leader practicing a version of the mourning while the singer singing about "the evil of Israel".

These rituals are entrenched in the Shiite doctrine. Variants of it is practiced by all shitte period. If you can whit yourself with a knife then you should beat your chest. I think you need to read more about this subject, which BTW seen us utter craziness by Sunnis. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_of_Muharram It is certainly not Muslim rituals, but rather an ugly diversion of Islam as I understand it.

Not true, My family are Christians, and I am now involved with Actualized teachings. I do believe what I believe though about Sunnis and Shiite. I side with Sunnis if I had to choose.

@Corpus Structure is the same, Most Shiite do their yearly quest to Karbala, it is equivalent to the Meca for them, this is why I refered to it as Haj, which translates to something like "a visit to a far away sacred place"

@Mesopotamian I mean how can you ever convince any Sunni that Shiite who believe in worshiping graves, and ancestors and have these kind of blood rallies are even Muslims at all, I am an outsider and it doesn't look to me that they are Muslims at all, but flowing a retarded, regressive cult.

@Gesundheit Moral of the story: I think that Shiite are inferior to Sunnis on the spiral, and that it is not as Leo has claimed that the differences are minute. Shiite have certainly regressed on the spiral towards Stage-Purple, and that does play a huge role in today's conflict.