Moksha

@James123 Nothingness is also a dualistic concept The Mystery goes deeper than that.

For me, it points to the paradox of ultimate and relative reality. He is referring to the idea of addition. How can something be added without first being created? If it was created, what created it? What then, is the creator of the creator? What then, is the creator of the creator of the creator? It is the Mysterious entanglement of the Uncaused cause, with the infinite cosmoses of cause and effect. Or maybe, he was just playing with your mind

Being awake in the now is precisely what enlightenment is. In that moment, there is no suffering. If you fall asleep after that, you are no longer in a state of enlightenment, and can suffer again. Simple. As to whether people can attain permanent enlightenment: Samadhi can come and go; generally it can be entered only in a long period of meditation and after many years of ardent endeavor. But one verse (5:28) adds the significant word sada, "always." Once this state of deep concentration becomes established, the person lives in spiritual freedom, or moksha, permanently. This is extremely rare. Mystics of the West as well as the East have attained brief glimpses of unity, but very few can be said to have dwelt in it permanently, as if it were their natural habitat. In the West the most prominent figures are Meister Eckhart, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross, though there have been others. In the Hindu tradition there is a long line of saints and mystics who have tried to communicate something of the nature of this union with Reality or God, from the unknown recorders of the Upanishads through the Buddha, Shankara, and Meera, to Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi. - Commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 5 The wise master their senses, mind, and intellect through meditation. Self-realization is their only goal. Freed from selfish desire, fear, and anger, they live in freedom always. - Bhagavad Gita 5:28

Yes, people sometimes only realize ultimate reality, and don't yet realize that relative reality is also part of God. God is both ultimate and relative reality, and is beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence. It is a paradox that is beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend, which is why it is called a Mystery. It can be directly realized, but not conceptually understood. Lord of the gods, you are the abode of the universe. Changeless, you are what is and what is not, and beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence. You are the first among the gods, the timeless spirit, the resting place of all beings. You are the knower and the thing which is known. You are the final home; with your infinite form you pervade the cosmos. Bhagavad Gita 11:37-38

Being awake in the now is precisely what enlightenment is. In that moment, there is no suffering. If you fall asleep after that, you are no longer in a state of enlightenment, and can suffer again. As to whether people can attain permanent enlightenment: Samadhi can come and go; generally it can be entered only in a long period of meditation and after many years of ardent endeavor. But one verse (5:28) adds the significant word sada, "always." Once this state of deep concentration becomes established, the person lives in spiritual freedom, or moksha, permanently. This is extremely rare. Mystics of the West as well as the East have attained brief glimpses of unity, but very few can be said to have dwelt in it permanently, as if it were their natural habitat. In the West the most prominent figures are Meister Eckhart, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross, though there have been others. In the Hindu tradition there is a long line of saints and mystics who have tried to communicate something of the nature of this union with Reality or God, from the unknown recorders of the Upanishads through the Buddha, Shankara, and Meera, to Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi. - Commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 5 On the noted verse: The wise master their senses, mind, and intellect through meditation. Self-realization is their only goal. Freed from selfish desire, fear, and anger, they live in freedom always. - Bhagavad Gita 5:28

Are you familiar with samsara and nirvana? Samsara is the soul cycle of birth and death, and nirvana is ultimate enlightenment, which releases the soul from this cycle. I like this quote from the Buddha, but there are many others: It is hard to obtain human birth, harder to live like a human being, harder still to understand the dharma, but hardest of all to attain nirvana. Enlightenment itself is a product of relative reality. Ultimately, there is no person to get enlightened in the first place. Relatively though, there is such a person, and this soul is on a journey toward enlightenment. Relative reality is the game Consciousness plays, which involves samsara and nirvana. It is the cosmos that abides within God.

You're overcomplicating it. I made a simple point: Enlightenment is the end of suffering. If you are enlightened, you realize your ultimate identity as Consciousness, and as a result, you no longer suffer. If you are suffering, you are not enlightened. I never said anything about enlightenment being permanent. The Buddha taught that the final stage of enlightenment is returning to the Source. Consciousness constantly creates and destroys in relative reality, and enlightenment is nothing more than lucid realization of your ultimate nature in this present form. Don't worry about Consciousness getting bored. Boredom is a product of the conditioned mind.

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Enlightenment is the direct realization that You are Consciousness. You were never created, and You will never die. Only the relative world is impermanent. The realization is simple, but the path to realization is difficult. Don't confuse simplicity with easiness.

Hmm, no offense bro but I'll go with the insights of the Buddha and my own direct experience.

Spiritual masters, and true wisdom, are by nature simple. It's the conditioned mind that wants things to be complex. Here's the Buddha's simple understanding of enlightenment: Grasp the Four Noble Truths: suffering, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path that takes you beyond suffering. That is your best refuge, your only refuge. When you reach it, all sorrow falls away. - Dhammapada 14:190

Enlightenment is the end of suffering. Anything that causes you to suffer more will not be true enlightenment.

You seem to have a healthy understanding of the relationship between your ultimate nature as Consciousness and your transient nature as a human being. Lucid living, based on such an understanding. is free from suffering. I think we may be discussing semantics more than anything. I like Tolle's definition of the ego, which is misidentification with the conditioned mind, rather than realizing the Consciousness that we are. Fighting the ego only feeds it. I agree with you that it is impossible to kill it. The best we can do is stay vigilant to its tricks, and not allow ourselves to identify with it. The moment you find yourself chasing after love or meaning or peace, rather than realizing it is already who you are, take it as a tornado siren. The ego cannot stand Consciousness, and it will slither back into the shadows when faced with the light of your being. It doesn't understand the language of love. It doesn't mean you can't have a personality, preferences, and enjoyment of life. The secret is not to take any of it too seriously, and realize its essential transience.

I have always advocated honoring human life, including our unique quirks and personalities. Life isn't just an empty illusion; it is relative reality, and should be celebrated. I was referring to the ego, which is the illusion that you are your personality, the blind disavowal of your divine nature, and the lie that enduring happiness can be found outside of yourself. The ego is a sneaky bitch, and it will make you miserable if you listen to its lies.

The ego is the false god. Worship it if you choose, but it will never bless you. The point of Rupert Spira's teaching is that we are already the true god. Longing is losing. Belonging is being.

Infinity = 0 + 1 It is nothing, and everything, infinitely.

Isn't it funny how we can awaken to the reality that we are not our thoughts, and still get so easily caught into their undercurrent? Before you realize it, you are already back asleep, being pulled downriver by your conditioning. The mind has tremendous momentum. The Buddha compared the path of enlightenment to swimming upstream. No realization, however profound, is likely to be enough, unless it is reinforced by regular meditation and spiritual practice.

Hello @Yobenm, and welcome to the forum A few insights I've had during my own journey, that I hope will help: Ego death is an illusion. As long as you are a human being, the ego will always be there. It slithers away and hides, but it does not, and cannot die. At best, it can be temporarily diminished and guarded against. Your strongest defense is vigilance. Learn to recognize the ego immediately, before it can attack. It has a distinctive spiritual stench; instead of relying on your regular senses, develop a keen awareness for the ego's presence. Sure signs of the ego: Anxiety, depression, obsessive thinking, compulsive habits, doubt, pride, and worst of all, the misguided belief that you are already enlightened, and could never possibly fall for the ego's lies again. Engaging the ego in battle requires integrity, courage, and serious commitment. It is nothing less than the sum total of your human conditioning, which started with your biology, and has been perpetuated by the messages society has hammered into you, for your entire life. It is a lifelong battle to defeat it. Realize that the ego relies on your soul energy in order to thrive. The less energy you feed it, the weaker it becomes. It is a lie, after all. It is only as threatening as you allow it to be. Trust in the holiness of your own presence. You are already sufficient. You are abundant. You are love. You need nothing beyond the essence of who you already are. The greatest lie of the ego is that everything is separate. It requires judgment, and a sense of superiority, in order to exist. Counter this lie with the directly realized truth of who you are, which is the same, undivided, Consciousness, that all of us is. ?

Nothing about knowledge is sure. Your mind is your enemy, trust it at your peril. Like a wild horse, it is beautiful, but only when tamed.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within You. Everything else, all the chasing for permanence in impermanence, is the Kingdom of Hell. Beyond and even including Heaven and Hell, there is Tat.

I've said it before, but: Infinity = 0 + 1 Or semantically, Reality underlies and encompasses both the ultimate and relative, and includes all nothings and all everythings. If you want to get it directly, Consciously read the Bhagavad Gita.

@Flyboy I hear you, and in a sense Frank Yang is right. Any duality, even Being vs. Non-Being, or God vs. No-God, or Reality vs. Illusion is inherently relative, and thus cannot reflect ultimate reality. Talking in such terms can be interesting, but only for the mind. Direct realization is beyond the mind. Your instinct about direct experience is right on. It is beyond the senses. When you directly realize who You are, it is undeniable, and it is beyond deconstruction. Dualities dissolve, and you realize, and resonate as, the connectedness and essence of everything. It is sufficient to itself. There is no need for any other "realization", and indeed there is no possibility of any other "realization", at least not that can be relied upon. I hope that helps, bro. You are asking good questions. Just don't depend on your mind for answers

@Flyboy How can direct experience be deconstructed? As the Watcher, where is the question mark? Direct experience is nonconceptual, and as such, it is undeniable. Enlightenment means nothing more than to be filled with light. The final path is not just the realization of who you are, but the actualization of that truth. When you are entirely free from attachments, you will be fully enlightened, and only then, there will be no more "you" to be bound to the relative world.

Hi @Vlad_, your question about the purpose of life is common when people first realize ultimate reality. I hope my answer here helps:

Ultimate reality is not knowable. It can only be directly experienced. Any beliefs, concepts, or models attached to it are products of the mind. Maybe what you are describing are the stages of direct experience. It may happen briefly, but then the person falls back asleep. It may happen sustainably, but realization ebbs and flows still, within that state. Even when a person's eyes are permanently opened, attachments must still be dissolved. It is only when awareness and expression are perfectly unified that ultimate enlightenment is attained. All of that said, remember my first paragraph