Moksha

@Kshantivadin ? @Breakingthewall Here's how I saw it a couple years back, based mostly on contemplations of the Bhagavad Gita and other spiritual writings that resonated with me: How it all works is the great mystery, and as you say it cannot be conceptually conceived. I have directly realized Consciousness, but I haven't seen far enough behind the phenomenal curtain to understand how Consciousness does its thing. I do sense that in relative reality, there are energetic reactions within and between forms, which somehow are ultimately caused by Consciousness, but that is as far as my understanding goes.

I agree, but these ideas can be derived from a partial awakening. You can directly realize nothingness, or the Consciousness that you are, without the deeper realization that Consciousness is all, including the universe that it creates. The problem is, people may have these partial realizations and then build a theory on it, which locks them into a conceptual framework that prevents a full awakening.

It was the primal fear of extinction, like standing at the edge of your grave and realizing you are only one step away from the dissolution of everything you used to believe was you. The thinner your personality becomes, the harder the conditioned mind fights for survival. As your attachments fray, there is an enormous ego backlash, at least there was for me. It will test the integrity of your insights to the brink of apparent death. The mind doesn't understand that it isn't truly being threatened, only identification with it. I still cherish my persona, and enjoy life through it, realizing that I created it for a reason. @Razard86 Isn't it ironic that desperately clinging to the mind for meaning so severely limits your ability to enjoy life? The desire to find happiness outside of your true nature only leads to suffering. Realizing who you are liberates you to fully love yourself and all of life. You see yourself in every being, and it is beautiful. I feel this is why nihilism and solipsism are so limiting. Realizing the void or believing "you" are the only actuality is only a partial awakening. It disparages the universe as a useless illusion and disrespects the reason for its creation. It is all still Consciousness, enjoying the phenomenal drama of itself.

@Jehovah increases ?I used to think the conditioned mind was the enemy, but have realized it isn't actually evil. It is just trying to survive, as evolution trained it to do. Like a rampaging elephant that simply needs to be tamed. As long as you don't identify with it, but gently domesticate it, the mind can become a powerful ally. Who doesn't like riding on the back of an elephant, guiding it where you want to go? ? Long ago my mind used to wander as it liked and do what it wanted. Now I can rule my mind as the mahout controls the elephant with his hooked staff. - Dhammapada 23:326

The closer I got to ego death, the more fiercely my ego fought to stay alive. It was terrifying and disorienting. I remember feeling so shaken that I had to use both hands to raise a glass. I was worried that I wouldn't be able to safely drive to meet a friend for lunch. Then I realized a couple of saving truths: 1) It wasn't necessary to push myself so hard. I deliberately put the brakes on my spiritual progress, not entirely, but enough to give myself some breathing room. When profound realizations occur, give yourself time to process them rather than feeling they have to be integrated immediately. 2) The ego is not the personality of your conditioned mind, but only identification with the personality. It is possible to be awake, and still honor the persona that your ultimate nature has chosen to enjoy, without being defined by it.

There are mystics in most religions (including Muslim) who move beyond identifying with teachings as literal truth, to realizing God within themselves. They may even repeat the teachings and rituals within the religion, but they see these practices for what they are: a symbolic pointer toward the reality of God which is their ultimate nature. One of my favorite poets is Kahlil Gibran: I agree with him that once your eyes are opened, it isn't possible to go back to your former beliefs, at least not at the pre-conscious level. You can only continue moving inward realizing the ocean that you are: It is said that before entering the sea a river trembles with fear. She looks back at the path she has traveled, from the peaks of the mountains, the long winding road crossing forests and villages. And in front of her, she sees an ocean so vast, that to enter there seems nothing more than to disappear forever. But there is no other way. The river can not go back. Nobody can go back. To go back is impossible in existence. The river needs to take the risk of entering the ocean because only then will fear disappear, because that’s where the river will know it’s not about disappearing into the ocean, but of becoming the ocean.

I liked and respected Nahm. I didn't always agree, for example the dreamboard claim that anything you desire can be manifested, without the caveat that Consciousness is calling the shots and there are few people consistently Conscious enough to move a mountain. Neo-advaita teachings don't resonate for me.

@spiritual memes @Consept Well said, and I agree. The pursuit of truth is worthy in its own right, but awakening is healing. If suffering is not reduced, and attachments are not frayed, the conditioned mind is still at the helm of your life.

@thisintegrated Do you feel the stereotype you are presenting is universally true, or even helpful? I've never tried weed (probably will at some point), I used to collect rocks as a kid but not any more, and my spiritual journey has reduced identification with and trust in the credibility of my thoughts. Any personality type can benefit from spirituality, although maybe people go about it differently. Ultimately, Self-realization dissolves the opacity of any personality type and allows Consciousness to shine through more clearly.

There are many examples of enlightened people who attend church (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart). As long as spiritual practices don't get in the way of Self-realization, there's nothing detrimental about them, and you might even see them more deeply as the symbolic spiritual path that they are. I still find a lot of wisdom in the bible, although I no longer see it as the sole expression of truth.

I agree that religious people can awaken at a certain level. They may not be fully awake yet because they are stuck in the worshiper-God duality, but spirituality is still possible. At one point in my life, I was quite religious and had spiritual experiences that were realizations of Consciousness, which I called God. Letting go of my beliefs was a step toward awakening, but it still took many years of suffering before I was dissolved enough to see.

Funny enough, when I first joined the forum I took the Myers-Briggs and scored as an INFP. First time in my life, every other time (including probably now) I was an INFJ. I don't feel there is a perfect correlation between spirituality and personality type, but there does seem to be a correlation.

I agree. I used to wonder why gurus offer spiritual teachings, or why practices like meditation and contemplation are of any value if people have no free will. We at the relative level can't choose to awaken. Then I realized that these are in the toolbox of Consciousness, allowing it to mold the human mind until Consciousness sees itself within the dream.

Yes, it is an assumption until your identity is directly realized. If you are not your thoughts, who are you? I like Sadhguru, but trust Tolle and my own experience more. I haven't had a single meditation session where there wasn't at least some brain activity, but I don't consider myself an advanced meditator. I feel the purpose of meditation is not to suppress thoughts, but to allow them to come and go without being distracted by them. It is the stillness of pure awareness.

Eckhart Tolle said that after his awakening, his thoughts reduced by 80%. As long as you are experiencing life through the lens of a human being, the mind will continue to think. The difference is that you no longer respond to your thoughts, as if they had any ability to save you from suffering. You realize that they are actually the source of suffering, and are sustained by it. Like you, I have found refuge from my mind in meditation: Meditation enables them to go Deeper and deeper into consciousness, From the world of words to the world of thoughts, Then beyond thoughts to wisdom in the Self.

@Jehovah increases Incomprehensibly true. It can only be directly realized, beyond concepts. Another passage from the Upanishads, which speaks to the inability of the human mind to understand or describe ultimate reality: Words turn back frightened.

@inFlow So true It's only when I'm awake that I realize I never truly fell asleep, and only pretended to be an individual I. We are the same Consciousness, talking to itself in a forum of dreams.

The irony of enlightenment is that you realize there is no absolute you to be enlightened. It is the self dissolving into the Self, like a grain of salt in the infinite ocean. It was the Self all along, appearing to be separate from what it actually is.

The most radical thing you can do is to Self-realize that you are here not to die but to enjoy this phenomenal moment, seeing through the dream-prism that you created.

Nothing is a better solvent for insanity (i.e., individuality) than suffering. It will grind you down until there is no you left to grind. Thank God for suffering ?

They are two sides of the same coin. Consciousness is in them, but is also beyond them. The space between these words is nothing and the space between these letters is nothing still. The appearance of these letters is something and the appearance of these words is something still. Consciousness is the ultimate dreamer of both. I love this passage from the Upanishads: That which is above heaven and below earth, which is also between heaven and earth, which is the same through the past, present, and future - that is woven, warp and woof, in space… In what is space itself woven, warp and woof? Tell me, Yajnavalkya. The sages call it Akshara, the Imperishable. It is neither big nor small, neither long nor short, neither hot nor cold, neither bright nor dark, neither air nor space. It is without attachment, without taste, smell, or touch, without eyes, ears, tongue, mouth, breath, or mind, without movement, without limitation, without inside or outside. It consumes nothing, and nothing consumes it. In perfect accord with the will of the Imperishable, sun and moon make their orbits…Nothing other than the Imperishable can see, hear, think, or know. It is in the Imperishable that space is woven, warp and woof.

@Rigel It is provable, but only through direct realization. At best, people can point you toward the inner path. It's up to you to try it out, and determine whether or not it leads to Self-insight and equanimity. I can tell you that meditation has been enormously beneficial in my spiritual journey, but the words mean nothing unless they motivate you to try it for yourself. If you want the rewards of meditation, you have to earn them. Consciousness doesn't give up its secrets easily. It is always there in the deepest cave of the heart, waiting to be discovered, but only when it decides the time is right. Maybe encouraging others to practice meditation is a way for Consciousness to reveal itself to itself. Maybe not. Try it and see. @vladorion Do you feel realizing your true nature is a one-time thing? Maybe it varies, but for me enlightenment is elusive. Just when Consciousness reveals itself within and my thoughts seem to have receded forever into the distance, I am plunged back into the cold waters of the conditioned mind and forced to continue swimming to the next island of reprieve. I have seen a spiral of awakenings lasting for longer periods of time, but eventually they are followed by another dark night that drives the realization of my ultimate nature even deeper. I feel that when you finally stop falling asleep, and your attachments dissolve to the thinnest sense of a personal self, at that point you have attained enlightenment.

Can nothingness stand out? Can it be anything other than non-differentiation? If not, nothingness cannot exist. Maybe a more accurate word than "exist" is "real". Nothingness can be real without existing. Just more words, which inevitably lead to confusion because they cannot represent ultimate reality. The territory is only directly realized, no matter how accurate the map pretends to be.

It is the only evidence that you can actually trust: direct realization. At best, people who have awakened can point you toward the path, but it is meaningless until you walk it yourself.

It is a red flag to speak of something rather than nothing. Any distinction is just another duality. Solipsists claim that they are everything. Nihilists claim that only nothingness is real. Ultimate reality laughs at claims. Consciousness is beyond something and nothing. It cannot be conceptualized, only Self-realized. We are it, and everything and every nothing is it.