Moksha

The progression of spiritual realization: 1) I am creation 2) I am the void 3) I am creation and the void, and beyond these dualities I am God

It seems silly now that you have awakened to no-self Tomorrow, in 10 years, or maybe not in the lifetime of this avatar, it could seem similarly silly to claim it is impossible to realize whether or not the cosmos is ultimately real. You never know what is around the next corner of the dream. The key is to stay open, and prepare yourself, for deeper realizations that your ultimate Self is willing to see within your avatar. The profound difference between direct realization and conceptualization is that truth is no longer up for debate. It is beyond ideas and what seems to be, as you must have seen when you directly realized no-self. You are still bound by the dream, as all of us are. Self is more lucid in some avatars than in others, but it is still within the dream. Realizing ultimate reality is awe-inspiring, but afterwards you still get to chop wood and carry water. Done lucidly, even mundane tasks take on a quality that is unimaginable to avatars within whom the Self still patiently waits to realize itself.

Before you awakened to no-self, what would you have said if you were told that you are not ultimately real? Perhaps something like the above, replacing "space and time" with "I". Is it possible that others have directly realized the cosmos is not ultimately real? In both cases, the realizations of others are irrelevant to your own realization. But you might consider whether a similar direct realization about the cosmos is possible, regardless of whether Consciousness has realized it yet within you. Not a bad translation, it has a deeper meaning than the words seem to indicate, similar to Christian teachings. You keep referring to ultimate reality, which is fine, but do you acknowledge that as Consciousness you are still within the avatar in your dream? If so, does lucid dreaming affect the quality of the dream, compared to unconscious dreaming?

My reference to "you have never done anything and will never do anything" was a direct quote from this thread Apathy does not imply there is someone there to be apathetic. It implies that Consciousness has not yet realized itself within that avatar. The entire cosmos is illusory, not just the appearance of the self. Space and time do not ultimately exist, only relatively. Lucidity means true seeing. In the spiritual context, a lucid dream is simply Consciousness realizing itself while indwelling an avatar in the cosmos. The avatar doesn't realize or choose anything on its own. It is all Consciousness, which includes but is beyond the avatar, calling the shots. The dream is the entire cosmos, and awakening does not cause the cosmos to disappear. It is simply the direct realization by Consciousness that it is not the form it currently inhabits within the dream. It still goes through the dream knowing this, but navigates it with Self-realized wisdom, creativity, and love. One person in many thousands may seek perfection, yet of these only a few reach the goal and come to realize me. - Bhagavad Gita 7:3 The above doesn't imply that a separate person autonomously seeks perfection and attains enlightenment. It is Consciousness within that person that takes this dream journey.

By mocking and apathy, I'm referring to the neo-advaita platitudes about spirituality: This life is an empty illusion; you have never done anything and will never do anything, so why care about living joyfully and with love? Advaita answers that yes, life is an illusion created by Brahman but for a divine purpose. It is true that there is no journey, no growth, and no enlightenment in ultimate reality. These are the reasons Brahman created the cosmos. It treasures the dream of journey, of growth, and of enlightenment. The purpose of life is to undertake and realize this journey, as mystics of every spiritual tradition have realized. When the purpose is fulfilled, Brahman rewards itself with a flood of divine resonance, which is experienced in the avatar as joy, creativity, and love which surpass all understanding. Thoughts and emotions still happen after enlightenment, but the difference is that you no longer identify with them. When they are positive, you no longer cling to them and when they are negative, you no longer resist them. It is the sublime state of lucid dreaming. Far better than the self-perpetuated suffering which condemns us to a hellish existence until we are ready to realize our true nature. Claiming that both states are simply appearance and already perfect denies this transformative distinction within the dream. As long as you are bound to the dream, why not lucidly celebrate it? It is why you created the dream in the first place. I agree that the royal secret is absolute directness, without the illusion of the self standing in the way. But absolute directness doesn't dissolve the dream. It only awakens you to the reality of being in a dream, without freeing you from it. If I am dreaming lucidly, rather than sulking in a dank cave until I die, I choose to fly.

Regular old advaita celebrates the royal secret, which far from apathy is the phenomenal joy of living lucidly within the dream: This royal knowledge, this royal secret, is the greatest purifier. Righteous and imperishable, it is a joy to practice and can be directly experienced. - Bhagavad Gita 9:2 I agree that the child is just an appearance. But its ultimate nature, which is God, is free to choose its dream adventure. The imagination of God is limitless. Why would God realize itself only to mock the foolishness of its unawakened characters, rather than loving itself by awakening within them as well?

I hear you. Life can be hell even before awakening, but that is nothing compared to feeling flooded with the love and glory of God, only to be cast out of the holy presence like Lucifer. Especially when you didn't do anything wrong!?! After falling what seems like forever through the void, God catches you again, and this time there is an even deeper awe. The resonance with your ultimate nature is at a higher frequency. You realize that the psyche has become thinner than it was before, from the grinding darkness of the void, and the light of God shines through more brightly still. The banishment turns out to be an act of divine love, and what you needed all along. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend "Dark Night of the Soul", especially the translation and commentary by Mirabai Starr: This is a path of annihilation of the ego. But we must first be brought home to ourselves before we can bear to see our nothingness before God…It is less for those who are struggling to find themselves than it is for the ones who have a clear sense of self and are ready to purify it… This is a path for those who use their suffering as a tool for transformation. In the dark night of each soul, we are simultaneously annihilated and immeasurably strengthened.

@Razard86 ? @axiom How neo-advaita of you But not so seriously, when a child discovers there is no Santa Claus, where is the joy in Christmas? He could retire to a cave for the rest of his life, dejected by the dissolving of his illusion. Or he could realize the deeper meaning of love that the mythological being represents, and is his true nature. Either way, he hasn't left the dream yet. Why not celebrate it lucidly, and love his way through life? The realization makes the mystery of life all the more amazing, and when the dam finally breaks, there is a flood of light and creativity which never would have been possible before.

@Theplay Great to hear. The pathway to enlightenment is so much simpler than most people realize, and yet so difficult that few sustainably live it. It is not about chasing insights, and all about realizing God within so deeply that attachments to aversions and desires dissolve. The wise, realizing through meditation The timeless Self, beyond all perception, Hidden in the cave of the heart, Leave pain and pleasure far behind. Those who know they are neither body nor mind But the immemorial Self, the divine Principle of existence, find the source Of all joy and live in joy abiding. - Katha 1.2:12

Meditation is my mainstay. It is like judo training for the mind. You reach the point where thoughts and emotions, no matter how apparently urgent, are allowed to flow through without grasping or resistance. They are realized to be energy patterns, nothing more. From awareness, any action required by the present moment is clearly seen. You no longer lose yourself in the melodrama of the mind. It is an amazing transformation. While life continues to throw challenges your way, they are no longer a problem, but a tempering force for deeper growth. Eventually no matter what winds blow, you are a still flame. Recommended reading: The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer The Mind Illuminated by John Yates 10% Happier by Dan Harris That said, don't worry about falling back. It happens to most of us, and is actually the pathway forward. There is a French expression, reculer pour mieux sauter, which means taking a step back to jump farther forward. Both personal and cosmic evolution have regressive cycles which lead to higher states of transcendence. All part of the conscious journey.

I agree with @Mu_. After awakening, I went through quite a long period of pure bliss. My life changed to such a degree that I naively believed it would last forever. Then God (I) shoved Itself (me) off the plateau of infant spirituality, and I plummeted into the depths. It was all the more horrible for having been in the light for so long. But now I see the love in it, and am grateful for the growth I allowed myself, within the dream. Don't sell yourself short, there may be more adventures up ahead Meanwhile, enjoy the beauty of basking in peace. After his awakening, Tolle spent two years sitting on park benches and observing nature and people through new eyes. Eventually, Consciousness kicked him in the ass and he began teaching others and writing "The Power of Now". Although it's true there is nothing ultimately to be taught, only discovered within, Consciousness still uses its lucid dreaming beings to point the way for realizing itself in others.

The more conscious I become, the more challenges the cosmos throws my way. It's like Consciousness forging a sword, and just when the metal begins to melt, plunging it into a bucket of cold water. Each time, the water is colder and the blade becomes stronger. Eventually, it is transformed into a finely honed weapon, but not until it is tested at the deepest levels to prove its worthiness to be wielded.

I agree. My point was that God doesn't require creation in order to be aware. Creation comes and goes, but God is timelessly aware. Even when it realizes itself within creation, it is still the ultimately aware God choosing to become aware of itself within its creation. Like a master pulling the strings of its puppet, and pretending to be astonished at its amazing self. The master is always aware. The puppet doesn't become aware of anything, only God within the puppet chooses to become aware of itself on the stage of its creation.

I hear what you are saying. In the gym, I have noticed that people who take steroids often are not able to lift as much weight as people who developed muscle naturally. Perhaps the same is true for psychedelics and spiritual growth, but maybe not. It is an overgeneralization to claim that psychedelics are unhealthy simply because they take the mind somewhere it is currently incapable of going on its own. To the contrary, reputable organizations like Beckley Foundation and MAPS, staffed by a plethora of M.D.s and Ph.D.s from the finest universities, are finding evidence for the positive effects of psychedelics on physical, emotional, and spiritual health. For example, this morning I was looking at this review of research on psychedelics and chronic pain, which concluded that: We are in the middle of a psychedelic renaissance, and science is finding that there may be substantial benefits to professionally guided psychedelic use. I have not personally tried psychedelics. Maybe I never will, but I am open to considering it. Not because I am chasing a spiritual experience, but because I would enjoy comparing any insights on psychedelics with those I have realized through substanceless spiritual practice.

Beautiful, thank you for sharing. It is easier to realize God within than to realize God without. Solipsism is only a step toward enlightenment. It is all seamless presence, expressed through a multitude of forms, like an infinite kaleidoscope of colors, shapes, and movements, but the same beingness transcends and is within it all. It is true that God cannot experience itself from the stateless state, but I feel it is still ultimately aware without requiring experience as a mirror. Philosophers fall into this Subject-Object conceptual trap, without realizing that the Mystery cannot be comprehended by the human mind and is beyond logic. The cosmos comes and goes, but God is still aware. It is spiritual light, which is the fundamental substance of awareness. If God was unaware in ultimate reality, how could it extend a mirror through creation in order to see itself? Without awareness, there could be no free will, and God is infinitely free. Then again, I have only realized God within the cosmos and when I seek to see myself beyond, it remains a Mystery. One of my favorite passages from any spiritual text: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery. - Tao Te Ching

Many interpret the Bible literally, as if each word was inscribed by the finger of God on the stone tablets which Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. It's like a child learning about life, and unable yet to comprehend the deeper lessons to be learned. I went through a phase of fundamentalist spirituality for a good part of my life. It was sincere, and thankfully despite the indoctrination I still realized God at some level. There is an interesting book, which I read shortly after leaving my church, called "Stages of Faith" by James Fowler: Fowler found in his research that the higher stages of faith are increasingly rare, with very few reaching the Universalizing stage. Jesus understood this, and taught at the level his disciples were capable of comprehending. The teachings were still true, but most of them didn't realize the deeper meaning: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. - 1 Corinthians 3:2

@Razard86 ?

Have you ever had a lucid dream where your character did nothing but shrug and disappear, realizing that it wasn't real and there was no point in pretending otherwise? Why dream in the first place? The point of creation is not only to discover the hidden identity buried in the cave of the heart, but then to love, enjoy, and even honor the experience of the dream. Enlightenment is an illusion, just as every being and event is within the cosmos. Still, it has a purpose. It allows you to enjoy the dance of the dream without being ensnared by it. Desires and fears lose their power over your awareness, and you are free to live with intention and creativity, without attachment to the results of your actions. Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretense. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true. Do not think that enlightenment is going to make you special, it’s not. If you feel special in any way, then enlightenment has not occurred. I meet a lot of people who think they are enlightened and awake simply because they have had a very moving spiritual experience. They wear their enlightenment on their sleeve like a badge of honor. They sit among friends and talk about how awake they are while sipping coffee at a cafe. The funny thing about enlightenment is that when it is authentic, there is no one to claim it. Enlightenment is very ordinary; it is nothing special. Rather than making you more special, it is going to make you less special. It plants you right in the center of a wonderful humility and innocence. Everyone else may or may not call you enlightened, but when you are enlightened the whole notion of enlightenment and someone who is enlightened is a big joke. I use the word enlightenment all the time; not to point you toward it but to point you beyond it. Do not get stuck in enlightenment. - Adyashanti

I just now saw a video from Adyashanti. He shared a true story of a Zen master who, in the last 40 years, took his students to a restaurant. In the middle of the meal, he received a phone call informing him that his wife had suddenly died. The Zen master collapsed into tears and wailed at the loss of his loved one. Seeing this, one of the students shook his head in dismay and asked how this was possible. The senior student looked over and said, "How sad that you have known our master all these years, and still have no idea of enlightenment." Awakening is not the end of pain. It is the end of resisting pain, and the realization that denying the energy of the present moment only feeds a more ferocious level of suffering. Be careful what you ask for. If you want to avoid all pain, you must also avoid the joys of cosmic existence. You can't have one without the other. Let the energy of the moment flow through you, without losing awareness, regardless of whether it is pleasurable or painful. Live the dream lucidly. On your question, there is little value in abandoning family to meditate forever in a cave. If you want to know if you are truly awake, put yourself into situations that demand the focus of your awareness. People are the perfect litmus test. When you are able to remain fully aware in the present moment, allowing whatever arises to be without identifying with it, only then will you be free from the attachments of the world. Realize yourself as the ocean, while enjoying the apparent dance of the waves. There is, one knows not what sweet mystery about this sea, whose gently awful stirrings seem to speak of some hidden soul beneath…for here, millions of mixed shades and shadows, drowned dreams, somnambulisms, reveries; all that we call lives and souls, lie dreaming, dreaming, still. - Herman Melville

The ideas of souls and reincarnation are attempts of the mind to explain how Consciousness plays its game of Self-discovery within the cosmos. As conceptualizations, they cannot capture God-Realization, which is direct and beyond spiritual beliefs. The how of Consciousness is rife with conjecture, and varies from one human mind to the next. The being of Consciousness is the only realization that is directly true. It is the blinding light that banishes the shadows of speculation, and reveals all ideas to be ultimately insignificant.

@Rasheed ?

A few quotes from my favorite scientist, who realized that ultimate truth is the mystery that cannot be comprehended by the human mind, no matter the level of genius: The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom. If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe. The years of anxious searching in the dark, with their intense longing, their alternations of confidence and exhaustion, and final emergence into light—only those who have experienced it can understand that. Let us not forget that human knowledge and skills alone cannot lead humanity to a happy and dignified life. A human being is a part of the whole, called by us “Universe”, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security. The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects.

Fundamentalist Christianity is an egoic bastardization of the original teachings of Jesus. Just as with eastern spirituality, there have been mystics within Christianity (St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, etc.) who saw beyond the ceremonies, idols, and tenets to the God within that they symbolized. Nothing you say will make a difference until people are ready to realize the truth. When they are ready, the letters inscribed in the bible will burn until only the spaciousness of wisdom that they try to represent remains. You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. - Psalm 82:6 Be still, and know that I am God. - Psalm 46:10 The light of the body is the eye; if therefore your eye is single, your whole body will be full of light. - Matthew 6:22 The kingdom of God comes not with observation: Neither will they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. - Luke 17:20-22 Edit: @Razard86 Just read your post and realized that you already cited some of these gems

The danger of questions is that they engage the thinking mind. As long as you are thinking, you are at risk of barricading your true self. Contemplation is fine and even useful, but only within the fire of awareness. When the fire is the center, contemplation feeds it. When it is absent, contemplation becomes a self-perpetuating snare. Ramana Maharshi is known for asking a single question: "Who am I?". He is even more famous for his silence, which he considered to be the purest state of being: Silence is ever-speaking, it is the perennial flow of "language." It is interrupted by speaking, for words destroy this mute language. Silence is unceasing eloquence. It is the best language. There is a state when words cease and silence prevails.

@iboughtleosbooklist Have you considered that the fear of pain is collectively worse than the pain itself? Pain is often unavoidable, but for most of us it isn't that common. Suffering, which is the fear of pain, is far more endemic and damaging to the human condition. Many people suffer constantly, and unnecessarily. Let go of suffering, and life becomes bearable and even beautiful. Pain still happens, but so does love. It is tragic that the vast majority of humans live as if they are already dead rather than simply living.